You certainly dont need a trinity in a modern game but the real problem is the number of players you need to run a dungeon.
if you reduce the groupsize to three people and utilize these groups of three in multiple squads you can get around all the problems of the trinity gameplay and get around the problems of the GW2 type gameplay.
a mobs dps, armor and stats are a function of the group size. The less you have in your group, the less of an issue it it. Its simple math.
what they need to be doing is making dungeons for 3,6 (2x3) and 9(3x3).
rather than everyone piled in together you split them up into different arms of the dungeons that unlock "ways ahead" for the other teams. If you dont have anough people you can simply backtrack and do the content yourself, but it would be more efficient with multiple squads.
You could make dungeons scale to the size of the group - again like coh.
It's one thing I don't get with gw2, they have the technology with their des to scale to the number of players, why didn't they do it with the dungeons?
Well GW2 DOES infact have a trinity, involving Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Its not as clean as a normal trinity which is why it can be messy but lacking it will make dungeons very difficult.
They are two different things. Offense, defense and support are common roles in ANY battle - real, videogame or otherwise - but that isn't the trinty. The trinity is specifically Tank, DPS, Healer. The tank is based on taunt/aggro mechanics. Without taunt, the class is useless.
Wrong. He didn't call it Offense/Defense/Support; he called it Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Crowd control is damage mitigation. I built my mesmer to be a tank. Could I hold agro? No. Did I have a taunt power? No. What I did was control agro on the mobs that nobody else were fighting... you could almost say I "tanked" them. The words he used are very specific in what they mean in Guild Wars 2. Offense/Defense/Support means whatever it is you want them to and could probably apply equally well to The Sims as they do to Guild Wars 2.
Your personal distinction between types of aggro management is irrelevant. The point is that the Trinity is a specific group. That you see only three possible roles in GW2 is immaterial. The Trinity is most certainly avoidable, especially in MMOs that support activities, professions and combat that goes beyond the scope of just the single encounter where nothing prior to the first sing or after the last swing affects the outcome.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There could be a new kind of role in mmorpgs.... in fact Guild Wars showed the way, but they forgot it in Guild Wars 2. Another role could be the crowd controller. In addition to dps, healer and tank, we could have the CC to control either the boss or the waves of minions.
They have a more important role in PVP though
CC is an old and wellknown role in MMO's its not new and not something GW2 have credit for, Tank is btw actual just a very simple form for crowd controller, especial when having mechanics like threath involved. Gw1 did actual have a frontline fighter that was not a standard tank, but thats old news.
The Trinity is the only way to go, since that is the point how group and teamplay works. The Trinity is fun, you have to work together in groups. The GW2 is just button mashing without a brain.
If there was no trinity style mechanics in play, then any dungeon could thoeretically be soloable.
Basically it would be like playing Borderlands 2 with the slider mod and maxing it out. While you may not need the normal trinity, you need some kind of interwoven group mechanic that makes it necessary to utilize a group. IE: something that a certain class or spec brings to the table that another can't. That is what makes challenging bosses and encounters. Otherwise its just a giant meat stick waiting for you to cut it down.
im my opinion the trinity should be left to die and the era of crowd control and group synergy should be explored. the whole "aggro management" needs to die. Its really dumb, makes no sense from a gameplay perspective and is not challenging. You might fool an animal, but a hardened ork warrior? please. GW2 is a good start but i think they went too hard on support. Healing is a little too weak, and crowd control is way to short for pve. GW2 with a smaller group size (3) and improved Crowd control/healing/support capabilities would really go along way to improving that system. in my opinion
Originally posted by JosephJR for me an mmorpg without trinity is sterile
so you believe that a hardened ork warrior should continue to swing away at your most defensive player despite the fact that hes ignoring this guy over here who is kicking his ass and the other guy over here who is keeping the guy he is trying to kill alive.
The Trinity is the only way to go, since that is the point how group and teamplay works. The Trinity is fun, you have to work together in groups. The GW2 is just button mashing without a brain.
The future is trinity!!!
The holy trinity splits in three games:
1. "I hold the attention of all the mobs/tank" aka "looking at threath bars".
2. "I watch the health bars, especially the bar of the guy holding mob attention, and if it goes down I click on it" aka wackamole.
3."I shoot and if it isn't to hard I move out of green goo" aka as pewpewpew.
So 3 games being play side by side is teamplay while GW2 where people can do all of the 3 but never for more than a few seconds each, it isn't.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
The Trinity is the only way to go, since that is the point how group and teamplay works. The Trinity is fun, you have to work together in groups. The GW2 is just button mashing without a brain.
The future is trinity!!!
The holy trinity splits in three games:
1. "I hold the attention of all the mobs/tank" aka "looking at threath bars".
2. "I watch the health bars, especially the bar of the guy holding mob attention, and if it goes down I click on it" aka wackamole.
3."I shoot and if it isn't to hard I move out of green goo" aka as pewpewpew.
So 3 games being play side by side is teamplay while GW2 where people can do all of the 3 but never for more than a few seconds each, it isn't.
lets not forget that the trinity has been around a long time and GW2 is a first mainstream stab at a non trinity. With a few tweaks to support i believe the gw2 model is far superior, especially if the game has any pvp.
I love the trinity because it creates interdependence if you want to create compelling group content. For me Everquest is the perfect example of this, a tank can't solo, they rely on a cleric and both then rely on dps. It works incredibly well. That's all I have to say about it, maybe it's boring, or outdated for some, but it still works the best I think.
Everquest also added and went to 5 or 6 instead of trinity with 3. Tank + healer + dps + slower + puller + CC, but the most important is still the trinity.
I personally hate the trinity but a friend of mine has argued somewhat convincingly that you cannot escape the trinity in MMORPGs.
Argument: In GW2 the dungeons seem to involve a lot of dying and rezzing to respawn point because there is no tank to soak all of the damage and slow things down. My friend argues that this demonstrates the need for the trinity in order to avoid the high rate of attrition and respawn in boss fights compared to other games.
Anyone agree with that idea?
Well if anyone thinks the Trinity is redundant, all they have to do is to play GW2 dungeons.
Now I know why Anet scrapped the Raids..................
I personally hate the trinity but a friend of mine has argued somewhat convincingly that you cannot escape the trinity in MMORPGs.
Argument: In GW2 the dungeons seem to involve a lot of dying and rezzing to respawn point because there is no tank to soak all of the damage and slow things down. My friend argues that this demonstrates the need for the trinity in order to avoid the high rate of attrition and respawn in boss fights compared to other games.
Anyone agree with that idea?
If done right the trinity can be avoided. look at a game called Asherons Call. Its a skill based game with multiple ways to heal yourself, you could get life magic and heal yourself or others, or you can get healing skill wich requires health kits and you can heal yourself or others. but you never need a person to be a " tank " or " healer " in that game. the mobs will never just sit agro because a person hit it first and there is zero taunts. and sitting back just healing doesnt cut it in that game.
its based on characters being able to fight multiple mobs on their own and be able to tank them and heal plus do damage on their own.
people might think that you wouldnt need others then if you can do all that yourself, but its not true because in that game you will be swarmed by mobs im talking 30+ mobs at once and you need others to take some of that off of you.
Its hard to explain the whole thing because the post would just be to long, but trust me its very possible that game has been doing it for 13 years now.
I personally hate the trinity but a friend of mine has argued somewhat convincingly that you cannot escape the trinity in MMORPGs.
Argument: In GW2 the dungeons seem to involve a lot of dying and rezzing to respawn point because there is no tank to soak all of the damage and slow things down. My friend argues that this demonstrates the need for the trinity in order to avoid the high rate of attrition and respawn in boss fights compared to other games.
Anyone agree with that idea?
Well if anyone thinks the Trinity is redundant, all they have to do is to play GW2 dungeons.
Now I know why Anet scrapped the Raids..................
i dont like the running back either and that is why i believe tweaks are necessary. Healing is too weak, and pve crowd control is also far to weak. There is also little defence against mass aoe other than dodging. However i think the premise of active combat is far better than the trinity so i think it needs to be tweaked, not written off.
You have to have strong crowd control in a game where you dont have the trinity and i think they missed the mark on that point. Healing is actually not bad, but its a little weak. i think they would of been better off not having a healing skill and just adding 10k hp to everyone to let them last a few more hits.
i would wager if you gave everyone the extra 10k from the heal skill, uppped healing by 10-15% and increased pve crowd control by a factor of 5x or so the game would be alot smoother in the dungeons.
Originally posted by ShakyMo But you can run any group in coh My regular group was 2 controllers, me doing gravity cc, with radiation debuffs & off heals. Another doing illusion control (like mes in gw2) and force fields (which was our primary "heals") 2 scrappers focusing same target 1 defender doing dark dps and drains
CoH is pretty much the only game I've ever enjoyed grouping in, and it's for exactly the reason you describe. Sure, some combinations in the game are a little more "set it and forget it," but you could literally combine anyone and succeed. 100% of my leveling in CoH was done in PUGs, because PUGs were just all kinds of fun! You never knew what your group makeup would be, and that lead to all kinds of fun combinations that really changed the way we approached encounters. That unpredictability may be an unpleasant idea to some people, but I absolutely loved it.
Well GW2 DOES infact have a trinity, involving Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Its not as clean as a normal trinity which is why it can be messy but lacking it will make dungeons very difficult.
They are two different things. Offense, defense and support are common roles in ANY battle - real, videogame or otherwise - but that isn't the trinty. The trinity is specifically Tank, DPS, Healer. The tank is based on taunt/aggro mechanics. Without taunt, the class is useless.
+1. Probably works as a system more in quest-combat centric gameplay? If those change, perhaps taunt makes even less sense (not that it ever made any sense when I first came across it)?
I think it's avoidable...but it also limits what you can create for content. I was a huge fan of EverQuest's group system. The trinity instead of being tank / healer / dps was more specifically Warrior / Cleric / Rogue as it was the maximized class at each of their specialties. Warrior was the best damage taker, Cleric the best healer and, in a group setting, Rogue was the best DPS. But in order to have a full, well rounded group you also needed CC, pullers, debuffers and the like. So that's where they hybrid classes came into play big time. Bard could pull, slow somewhat and provide big stat boosts, mana regen, haste etc. Shaman backup healer, slower, buffer and pretty good DoTs. Enchanter with CC, slow, haste and mana buffs. There's so much more that can be done other than straight up varieties of tank / heal / dps that is missing lately it's not even funny.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Why I don't like Guild Wars 2 combat is that I don't really feel like part of a team. Some of the time, everyone in my group dies, except for me, in a boss fight, and I sit there beating away at the boss, like I would be if they did not die.
The trinity forces you to absolutely need others, which can also be seen as bad, but the interdependence has a nice feeling.
Groups can work together very well in Guild Wars 2, but it's usually just me versus the boss, with some other people doing whatever--helping, dying, meh.
I believe advocaters of either side simply differ in mindset and perception. I prefer trinity most of the time and dabbling in non-trinity every now and again when I want to do solo content, so to speak.
Focus on combo fields and reacting with correct triggers depending on what is needed by others. The team work is there- a lot more than 1 person tanking. 3 dpsing and 1 healing. I find a lot of my time spent laying stuff down to Protect Others - Aren't you doing this?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Why I don't like Guild Wars 2 combat is that I don't really feel like part of a team. Some of the time, everyone in my group dies, except for me, in a boss fight, and I sit there beating away at the boss, like I would be if they did not die.
The trinity forces you to absolutely need others, which can also be seen as bad, but the interdependence has a nice feeling.
Groups can work together very well in Guild Wars 2, but it's usually just me versus the boss, with some other people doing whatever--helping, dying, meh.
I believe advocaters of either side simply differ in mindset and perception. I prefer trinity most of the time and dabbling in non-trinity every now and again when I want to do solo content, so to speak.
i believe thats not necessarily because of the trinity but because they have handicapped crowd control in that game. You cant lock down a mob for more than 6 or so seconds in GW2 to my knowledge, and for me thats a problem. I have been able to offtank with my guardian, and as well i have been able to provide alot of healing and condition removal to the team. You have to spec for it and most dont.
I like how you cant easily make a mob attack you but at the same time i think if your going to do this you need strong crowd control, not weak crowd control to compensate for this. I also think they overdid it on healing and restricted it a little too much, maybe 10-20% to weak. I actually prefer the boon method to buffing and i also believe that the healing model they use is superior to cast heal on target x, but like all new things, it needs a little refinement.
Originally posted by colddog04 In Gw2 dungeons, people die a lot because they suck a lot - not because there is no trinity.
so sucking as in trying to use trinity tactics in a non-trinity fight? Or do you mean just plain incompetent with class abilities/hitting buttons/timing?
Its more about brining the right skills to the right dungeons. Condition removal builds will do more for you than any pseudo-tanks or pseudo-healers in Twilight Arbor. And bringing condition removal doesnt make you a 'healer'.
Comments
You certainly dont need a trinity in a modern game but the real problem is the number of players you need to run a dungeon.
if you reduce the groupsize to three people and utilize these groups of three in multiple squads you can get around all the problems of the trinity gameplay and get around the problems of the GW2 type gameplay.
a mobs dps, armor and stats are a function of the group size. The less you have in your group, the less of an issue it it. Its simple math.
what they need to be doing is making dungeons for 3,6 (2x3) and 9(3x3).
rather than everyone piled in together you split them up into different arms of the dungeons that unlock "ways ahead" for the other teams. If you dont have anough people you can simply backtrack and do the content yourself, but it would be more efficient with multiple squads.
It's one thing I don't get with gw2, they have the technology with their des to scale to the number of players, why didn't they do it with the dungeons?
Your personal distinction between types of aggro management is irrelevant. The point is that the Trinity is a specific group. That you see only three possible roles in GW2 is immaterial. The Trinity is most certainly avoidable, especially in MMOs that support activities, professions and combat that goes beyond the scope of just the single encounter where nothing prior to the first sing or after the last swing affects the outcome.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
CC is an old and wellknown role in MMO's its not new and not something GW2 have credit for, Tank is btw actual just a very simple form for crowd controller, especial when having mechanics like threath involved. Gw1 did actual have a frontline fighter that was not a standard tank, but thats old news.
The Trinity is the only way to go, since that is the point how group and teamplay works. The Trinity is fun, you have to work together in groups. The GW2 is just button mashing without a brain.
The future is trinity!!!
If there was no trinity style mechanics in play, then any dungeon could thoeretically be soloable.
Basically it would be like playing Borderlands 2 with the slider mod and maxing it out. While you may not need the normal trinity, you need some kind of interwoven group mechanic that makes it necessary to utilize a group. IE: something that a certain class or spec brings to the table that another can't. That is what makes challenging bosses and encounters. Otherwise its just a giant meat stick waiting for you to cut it down.
im my opinion the trinity should be left to die and the era of crowd control and group synergy should be explored. the whole "aggro management" needs to die. Its really dumb, makes no sense from a gameplay perspective and is not challenging. You might fool an animal, but a hardened ork warrior? please. GW2 is a good start but i think they went too hard on support. Healing is a little too weak, and crowd control is way to short for pve. GW2 with a smaller group size (3) and improved Crowd control/healing/support capabilities would really go along way to improving that system. in my opinion
so you believe that a hardened ork warrior should continue to swing away at your most defensive player despite the fact that hes ignoring this guy over here who is kicking his ass and the other guy over here who is keeping the guy he is trying to kill alive.
its lameplay. Lazy design.
The holy trinity splits in three games:
1. "I hold the attention of all the mobs/tank" aka "looking at threath bars".
2. "I watch the health bars, especially the bar of the guy holding mob attention, and if it goes down I click on it" aka wackamole.
3."I shoot and if it isn't to hard I move out of green goo" aka as pewpewpew.
So 3 games being play side by side is teamplay while GW2 where people can do all of the 3 but never for more than a few seconds each, it isn't.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
lets not forget that the trinity has been around a long time and GW2 is a first mainstream stab at a non trinity. With a few tweaks to support i believe the gw2 model is far superior, especially if the game has any pvp.
I love the trinity because it creates interdependence if you want to create compelling group content. For me Everquest is the perfect example of this, a tank can't solo, they rely on a cleric and both then rely on dps. It works incredibly well. That's all I have to say about it, maybe it's boring, or outdated for some, but it still works the best I think.
Everquest also added and went to 5 or 6 instead of trinity with 3. Tank + healer + dps + slower + puller + CC, but the most important is still the trinity.
Well if anyone thinks the Trinity is redundant, all they have to do is to play GW2 dungeons.
Now I know why Anet scrapped the Raids..................
If done right the trinity can be avoided. look at a game called Asherons Call. Its a skill based game with multiple ways to heal yourself, you could get life magic and heal yourself or others, or you can get healing skill wich requires health kits and you can heal yourself or others. but you never need a person to be a " tank " or " healer " in that game. the mobs will never just sit agro because a person hit it first and there is zero taunts. and sitting back just healing doesnt cut it in that game.
its based on characters being able to fight multiple mobs on their own and be able to tank them and heal plus do damage on their own.
people might think that you wouldnt need others then if you can do all that yourself, but its not true because in that game you will be swarmed by mobs im talking 30+ mobs at once and you need others to take some of that off of you.
Its hard to explain the whole thing because the post would just be to long, but trust me its very possible that game has been doing it for 13 years now.
i dont like the running back either and that is why i believe tweaks are necessary. Healing is too weak, and pve crowd control is also far to weak. There is also little defence against mass aoe other than dodging. However i think the premise of active combat is far better than the trinity so i think it needs to be tweaked, not written off.
You have to have strong crowd control in a game where you dont have the trinity and i think they missed the mark on that point. Healing is actually not bad, but its a little weak. i think they would of been better off not having a healing skill and just adding 10k hp to everyone to let them last a few more hits.
i would wager if you gave everyone the extra 10k from the heal skill, uppped healing by 10-15% and increased pve crowd control by a factor of 5x or so the game would be alot smoother in the dungeons.
CoH is pretty much the only game I've ever enjoyed grouping in, and it's for exactly the reason you describe. Sure, some combinations in the game are a little more "set it and forget it," but you could literally combine anyone and succeed. 100% of my leveling in CoH was done in PUGs, because PUGs were just all kinds of fun! You never knew what your group makeup would be, and that lead to all kinds of fun combinations that really changed the way we approached encounters. That unpredictability may be an unpleasant idea to some people, but I absolutely loved it.
The Trinity is the law in any group gaming with RPG-like elements.
+1. Probably works as a system more in quest-combat centric gameplay? If those change, perhaps taunt makes even less sense (not that it ever made any sense when I first came across it)?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
Why I don't like Guild Wars 2 combat is that I don't really feel like part of a team. Some of the time, everyone in my group dies, except for me, in a boss fight, and I sit there beating away at the boss, like I would be if they did not die.
The trinity forces you to absolutely need others, which can also be seen as bad, but the interdependence has a nice feeling.
Groups can work together very well in Guild Wars 2, but it's usually just me versus the boss, with some other people doing whatever--helping, dying, meh.
I believe advocaters of either side simply differ in mindset and perception. I prefer trinity most of the time and dabbling in non-trinity every now and again when I want to do solo content, so to speak.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I put down combo fields when everyone is up and able to capitalize them, as well as use combo fields whenever I see them.
It still doesn't feel clutch or anything. You may feel otherwise. Also, some bosses having resistances to conditions kind of kills it arbitrarily.
Anyway, you clearly like Guild Wars 2. That's fine.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
i believe thats not necessarily because of the trinity but because they have handicapped crowd control in that game. You cant lock down a mob for more than 6 or so seconds in GW2 to my knowledge, and for me thats a problem. I have been able to offtank with my guardian, and as well i have been able to provide alot of healing and condition removal to the team. You have to spec for it and most dont.
I like how you cant easily make a mob attack you but at the same time i think if your going to do this you need strong crowd control, not weak crowd control to compensate for this. I also think they overdid it on healing and restricted it a little too much, maybe 10-20% to weak. I actually prefer the boon method to buffing and i also believe that the healing model they use is superior to cast heal on target x, but like all new things, it needs a little refinement.
Its more about brining the right skills to the right dungeons. Condition removal builds will do more for you than any pseudo-tanks or pseudo-healers in Twilight Arbor. And bringing condition removal doesnt make you a 'healer'.