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Do strict party roles actually discourage socializing?
Quirhid
Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
Let me say this upfront: I'm not talking about class or classless systems in particular - I'm quite confident to say they all have party roles. All of them. Classless games have cookie-cutter builds just like the rest of 'em.
Here's my hypothesis: Because we set clear and simplified partyroles in games there is less need for communication or genuine cooperation - that is solving a problem together. If one tanks, one heals and one does the DPS, all will be right, right? No need for anyone to say anything to each other as long as everyone does their job.
- a bruiser, support, jungler, ap and ad carries
- tackle, DPS, logistics
- tanky target caller, debuffer, DPS, support
- scout, demoman, medic the rest preferably soldiers
- tanky support, roamer, direct damage and atleast one condition damage
I'd imagine most of the communication was done while developing these templates. Stray off from the beaten path and you'll read it from the chat. "If you play X, you're supposed to do Y, and nothing more." It is limiting.
I've been on seen all the sides of this. I've been a vet seeing past the cookie-cutter, I've been a newb playing one and sometimes I've been the guy demanding someone to fill a cookie-cutter role, because its just a random dude, you don't know whether he/she can play for real - "just play X and do what you're told".
Now when you play in a clan, or a guild. A close knit group preferably. I feel I'm hardly ever confined to strict role. There's a lot more talk on what we need and where and why. We talk about mechanics and tactics. We are solving a problem together. We're communicating a lot more.
So this talk about implementing these strict roles which are heavily depended of eachother is actually a good thing for socializing, other than coming up with a functional party becomes harder and there's nothing better to do while looking for the right group.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Comments
There are a ton of assumptions built into that post, the most glaring is that combat roles and socializing have anything to do with each other at all. The second biggest is that it is based on combat being so predictable and formulaic (ex:most MMO PvE combat) that each person does their task and no one talks.
The case you make toward the end is about PUG being less social than premade/clan group, as the roles are still present in both groups only the latter is a unit of players with a pre-existing commonality.
To answer the title: Strict party roles in combat do not have anything to do with socializing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What is important is the pace of combat and how much player roles need to synergize. As you pointed out if all players have to do is their own role, then socializing becomes nonexistent. The same can be said for combat if it becomes too fast. A good example of this is FFXI.
- Combat was slow enough it would be possible to carry a normal conversation with the group.
- Skill chains were important for damage and required coordination between group members.
The main issue here is that it is somehow assumed that people do and should socialize while performing heavily streamlined actions/activities, that were specifically designed to not require any socialisation (lfg, pug raids), and to a lesser extent, that the main source of socialisation is combat.
Which is, to be frank, quite hilarious.
As for fixed roles, imagine a world of the olde days, where healers and support was rare and the most sure way to group, which was truly optiononal, was to actually know a healer or support, or to play one, or where people would hang out doing various stuff that was potentially boring in open common areas.
Quid pro quo, each has his bad and good sides, if you want to remove the need for other players, you will also remove the need to socialize, and this is especially true for the role problem.
Flame on!
Actually you're right: socializing is a bad word for it. Maybe teamwork?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Not really. What bring teamwork is need to cooperate.
When players feel that they 'need' to cooperate. Two strongest factors:
a) they cannot complete certain task if they don't cooperate / talk - basicallly difficluty, higher it is more often people cooperate. Mind you - this not always end preety and succesful. More difficult encounter / task is - more emotions there are and some people just blow sometimes.
b) risk of losing an 'investment' - what is one of most valuable thing in life and even more in games? Time. That's why groups break up fast after first heated arguments / failures / inability group members to find common language and playstyle.
If groups don't break up relatively fast at first troubles - they usually try for long amount of times, even if they don't succedd (like wiping over and over in dugeons.)
Human nature is either 'cut losses fast' and if you don't then it is 'don't leave cause you are doing this for 1,5 h -and it would all go to waste if you quit!'.
Modern mmoprg's changed how they manage difficulty. It is 95% of content is easy or very easy and few pecentages - like few end-game 'hard mode' dungeons or raids hard. This very hard content is being done by minioity of players and those people usually cooperate and use teamwork on some level. Of course many of them are very demanding or even elitists but I am not talking here about that.
Rest of content being relatively easy does not require much teamwork at least in perception of sizeable part of playerbase and that's why those people does not feel need to employ a teamwork and are either silent or rage at others at any signs of failure + rush it.
Second reason is auto-teleport matchmaking. Before you have invested time to travel to dungeon and if you did not go on compromises, bite your tongue or put an effort in teamwork you risked that all this travel and effort would go to waste and possibly it would require much time to gather / join other group or to travel to other location.
Now grouping is passive and there is no travel. Just push a button and read something, watch tv, go make some snack,etc and after a while you have a group. Then player don't need to hold back, because does not lose much.
Team work does not have much in common with trinity, roles and simialr stuff.
Team work was not higher in no-roles FPS games like Quake or even to lesser extent CoD.
GW2 also does not have much bigger teamwork than any other new mmorpg. Of course it is bit now since it is new game and there are some other game-combat mechanics than in your standard mmoprg, but ultimatelly it is not much more.
Of course I won't even start at socialization since combat mechanics does not directly equals socializing. You can have very high teamwork combat and game with not much socialization or combat that does not demand much teamwork and quite big socialization. Of course combat CAN help and support, but it is not deciding factor.
Personally i would like to see a 3 man group outfitted with integrated voice chat. I believe this would give players a much more visceral experience in dungeons.
theres a couple of reason i think less is more.
1) integrated voice chat will work better (IMO) with 3 rather than 6 in terms of a dungeon crawl. Less squawk, more conversation.
2) people usually have a few good buddies online at any time and they always have to pick up a 4th or especially a 5th man. Even star trek made fun of this and its true. The person is often there as group filler not because your particularly interested in them. You are also more likely to be prone to conversations in a smaller pug since there arent so many people.
3) the logistics of 3 mean that encounters will be scaled for 3 instead of 5 or 6 which dramatically increases personal survivability due to less required damage scaling from larger groups. This allows hybrid players to thrive, with much less requirements for heavy specialist classes. (you need a tank to take 6x damage, but do you need one to take 3x? Not as much)
4) Because a 3 man is pretty small, non instanced dungeons would become reliant on many groups of three to be active in the dungeon at the same time to progress it efficiently. This means that your "unit" would be coordinating with other units in the same dungeon.
5) 3 mans are more portable, easier to bring together and can have assignable tasks. You might have a group based on a stealthy approach where the other one is brute force. This is harder to do with larger groups.
So in the end i believe that if you make the groupsize 3 and integrate voice chat i believe you will get a more personal feel to dungeon crawling, and thus more potential to make new friends. All my opinion of course.
I loathe voice chat. I would rather listen to music, and I prefer text communication. I think voice chat has done *FAR* more harm for MMORPG socialization than good. It makes people only communicate with a subset of their guild, it leads to even more cliques than without, and it has trained some people to hate typing which has an extreme negative impact on PuGs.
I agree.
Well to be fair , if u play a healer , guess what? u are supposed to *gasp* heal....else roll another class , same goes for tanks or anyother role
I remember playing an enchanter in eq, and i did was i was expected to do ,i enjoyed it , thats why i played a ench in the 1 place .....if i wanted to nuke things to death , >>>> wizard
same goes for SMN in FFXI (in the old days) i was expected to main heal exp partys , in endgame i was there to Predator claws, stoneskin ,and offheal , debuff (erase , paralyna ect) , if i wanted to full time heal > WHM , full time nuke > blm
restricted roles exist for a reason , because ppl enjoy to heal , tank , debuff/buff , or be a support , dps w/e
ummm.. its called integrated for a reason. Its integrated directly into the game. You would be able to converse freely with anyone in your current group. You can even modulate your voice to sound how you want it to sound. Im pretty sure this will be in eq next to compliment the Soemote.
the problem being with that is that players enjoy playing dps far far far more than anything else, all combined. Technically speaking for 70% of players the system didnt even change in GW2 since they are dps. It only changed for tanks and healers/support.
not if you have integrated voice chat. You can mash your hearts delight and still be able to talk freely.
I dunno, DAOC had very strict class roles and yet was the most social MMORPG I ever played.
I think other mechanics affect it more, such as the pacing of combat and downtime between fights, combined with the unpredictability of the fights.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
The best part about Lower Guk wasn't getting a FBSS. It was the friends I made and hung out with during the many evenings hanging out there. Was also a great way to get to know potential guildies.
There is a post on these forums asking what was your most prized item you ever got and 99% of the responses are from way back.
When people know their role you now have more time to just hang out and socialize and chat about whatever you want to.
Now alot of the social aspect stays within the guild as most are on vent/mumble and they are talking with guildies and just running a dungeon with strangers with very little socializing.
Also
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Its a good observation.
I think games/MMOs have focused too much to force-socialize people in the wrong way, through combat and combat roles.
Maybe devs should think about how to make socialization through non-combat activities more interesting. The problem is, most games are highly combat focused nowadays (in the sense that almost everything ends in combat one way or another, even the crafting).
I know from experience that starting a new MMO without friends can be pretty intimidating. I usually dont join guilds untill i understand the game-mechanics because i know that others will rely on that instead of having to babysit me through every nanosecond of the day.
Why not take new players and essentially throw them into social situations immediately. Like there would be large construction projects you can participate in that are open for all. etc.
just a thought.
That doesnt help those that enjoy listening to music during their relaxation time. Or who cant use voice chat due to living arrangements/family. Or those that are hearing impaired. Voice chat excludes people.
Things that discourage socializing in groups:
1. Voice Chat with not the group
2. Guild Chat
3. Cross-server partying. The more people you have to party with, the less likely you are to group with any random person again. In older MMOs, you sometimes talked to people out of necessity. You know that there is a good chance that you will see them again. You better not piss them off.
4. Communication not being required to complete the tasks at hand.
5. People becoming increasingly antisocial. A person who might want to talk to people tries and fails to get their group to talk. In the next group, they are less likely to spark a conversation.
But mostly the first three. Many players already have a group of friends or guild to chat with. There's very little reason to get to know the random people in your group, because you are unlikely to see them again and you already have a close-knit group of people to socialize with.
I thought Quirhad did not like grouping?!
Well it works the opposite way, if you have a situation where everyone can do everything, no one talks about teamwork. Where as people in the same role will often talk about what they are going to do, especially healers. Even as a ardent melee basher I will sometimes talk to other melee bashers about what we are going to do.
But I am not a fan of classes really, I just prefer them because they promote grouping. They can give you a sense of starting out, your place in the world. SWTOR was the best game I have played in that regard, Warhammer probably second.
I also note that they are a standard of modern FPS, we may see them being kept in MMO’s purely for that reason.
What the last poster said was a good run down of what discourages socializing and teamwork.
I've never been against grouping, but I've always been against forced grouping. Only, I've become tired of the holy trinity and other strict roles which, I feel, trivialize combat.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Think you just might be tired of mmorpg's especially their rpg part. There is growing trend to make non-rpg mmo's games like MMOFPS, MMORTS, and other ones and while they are not role / class less you maybe might like them better than mmorpg's.
But I won't dig it deeper - just will respond to second sentence.
I used to play Unreal Tournament '99 . This game did not have any mechanics afair for classes - just like Quake and few other fps games in past. Unreal Tournament '99 was fun and I had great times playing it.
Still it is not what I look for in mmoRPG's. and even not in most other games. Actually UT'99 combat while very fun, feel more trivial and shallow than combat in most other games. It is just about twitch, aiming and properly choosing and using avabile weapon.
Like I said fun, but it scratches totally diffrent place than I want to be scratched in when playing mmorpg's.
re: title
I've never found it to be the case. Friendly people just naturally socialize within their groups. Neutral people expect the groups to socialize with them. The asocial rarely say anything unless it's "gogogogo".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.