What the OP's title implies but doesn't address is that there must be some good arguments against FFA PvP. What are they?
As far as I'm concerned there is one good one: In a persistant online RPG the concept of consequence and context free killing over and over is completely counter to the point of the genre. Unless the lore supports people killing each other for no reason and with no response from the local authorities or the populace, it just doesn't fit. Putting multiplayer deathmatch style play in an RPG makes no sense.
The funny part is. In general in europe the arguement is completely the other side. A Role Playing game have to have FFA PvP on, so you are able to play your role. And over there are a few dedicated roleplaying boards, even in the nowadays more or less died out roleplaying scene for mmorpgs.
That a good FFA PvP game should have different consequences for different kinds of player kills is another discussion, and i agree with it. That you have to handle different kills(in lore) differently.(like it is as example in Arche Age) But to turn PKin off is no solution at all. But on the other side roleplaying in MMORPGs become anyway more or less non existent since the masses(WoW and even before) where attracted from MMORPGs.
I got some decent role playing in Old UO and a lot in some UO freeshards, after that it become less and less. I got in DAoC or SWG involved in some kind of roleplaying. But after WoW or almost any game after WoW i really didnt encounter any roleplaying, and withit i am didnt roleplay a lot in MMORPGs anymore. It is just frustrating nowadays. Therefore i play regulary PnP Sessions with a few friends for that.
If they would maybe again reduce the masses in MMORPGs, with servers with just a few hundred, i guess, it could be possible again to really roleplay. But somehow i doubt that we will something like that anywhere in the next few years.
I only play and/or engage in pve mmos, not because Im a carebear or because I dont like pvp in mmos. I think that the only meaningful pvp is FFA and full loot.
But my *ONE* problem with ffa pvp is consequences. in ffa mmos, there arent any. And without proper consequences for something as serious as killing another player, you cease having a game world, and start having a deathmatch game. Might as well play chivalry or war of the roses, at least those games have proper gameplay, not this hotbar bullshit.
So again, to recap, give me a FFA PVP mmo with proper consequences for being a twat, and I'll play the shit out of it. As long as its also a good mmo, ofc.
PVP is never going away, it's the PVE players that try PVP games that are going away, because they try something they cannot cope with, yet they cry about it.
PVP players can cope with griefing, ganking etc, sure it might piss them off, but they don't give up (if they do, they're PVE players)
Last time i played DF (for about 4 months in a row) we had more respect towards the fellow competitors than i've EVER! seen in a PVE oriented mmo.
I guess you haven't played a real pvp-game, harrashment, badmouthing etc 99.9% of the times is intiated by the player that was killed (the sore loser, the pve-player etc.), thusly the misconseption about all pvp-players being "gankers, kids, children, bad players, noobs and whatnot IF we choose to reply in an insulting manner TO an insult.
Instead of trying to downplay all the abuse that goes on in PVP games by little kids and shockingly sometimes adults who gank, grief, emotionally abuse and harass fellow players, you should recognise your community has a problem.
Many of the same kids who enjoy their foul-mouthed behavior on Xbox and who revel in the idea of hurting another human being and making their life as miserable as humanly possible, are the same people who play PVP.
The issue is with your community, and PVE players have distanced themselves from that type of behavior.
People who don't like something will always find arguments, often good and valid, to convey their dislike.
To be honest, I couldn't care less. Let them cry. It feeds my soul. I may be a sociopatch & a coward, if you wish to call me that, but I'll *always* experience more joy from killing someone who feels they should be left alone in a ffa/pvp environment.
And there you have my counter argument.
There is one thing I will agree with tho, that pvp needy players and griefers alike are usually pretty pleasent persons in real life - This is because real life has consequences. I know people like this, I have good friends like this, but I don't play with them or try to discuss games with them because they have fundamentally different ideas of what makes a game interesting.
And then there are the true pvp'rs who plays pvp for the challange, this crowd are unfortunately not dominating pvp games.
To that I see it in this way, there are true pvp players which the OP are probably referring to, and then there are the asshats that everyone against are talking about - Both commonly and unjustifyably mixed up and just referred to as pvp'rs.
PVP is never going away, it's the PVE players that try PVP games that are going away, because they try something they cannot cope with, yet they cry about it.
PVP players can cope with griefing, ganking etc, sure it might piss them off, but they don't give up (if they do, they're PVE players)
Last time i played DF (for about 4 months in a row) we had more respect towards the fellow competitors than i've EVER! seen in a PVE oriented mmo.
I guess you haven't played a real pvp-game, harrashment, badmouthing etc 99.9% of the times is intiated by the player that was killed (the sore loser, the pve-player etc.), thusly the misconseption about all pvp-players being "gankers, kids, children, bad players, noobs and whatnot IF we choose to reply in an insulting manner TO an insult.
Instead of trying to downplay all the abuse that goes on in PVP games by little kids and shockingly sometimes adults who gank, grief, emotionally abuse and harass fellow players, you should recognise your community has a problem.
Many of the same kids who enjoy their foul-mouthed behavior on Xbox and who revel in the idea of hurting another human being and making their life as miserable as humanly possible, are the same people who play PVP.
The issue is with your community, and PVE players have distanced themselves from that type of behavior.
Ironically if you look at a modern pve ruleset, most of the rules were put in place to prevent such issues. They dont put in new rules for no reason. Truth is that the zealotry of the pve cause is its own worst enemy. Sanitize until nothing is left.
I like it when games force people into PvP. I really hate when people see that it's a free for all PvP mmo, they beg for a PvE server and get one. Where do you think all the server's excellent victims/productive members (The RPers, peace lovers, crafters, casual gamers,cyberers) go? To the PvE server and the community on the PvP server becomes terrible before the game even launches.
Humorously, news of Wizardry online being "Permadeath" and FFA PK has people commenting on those news articles the exact arguments that OP lists.
I do think some Pkers are sociopaths though. If a Persona is an extension of yourself that you can summon and cast spells with. I think you can really tell though, most aren't crazy per say but it takes a special kind of person to want to go out and ruin a person's day.
The main problem is that carebears use to compare the meaningless pvp in pvp servers of non-pvp MMOs with the pvp in a OWPvP game.
The basic difference between them is that an OWPVP game has consequences and objectives for world pvp, it is not a random gankfest like in themeparks, where randoms kill randoms just to farm gear. The consequences(like a pk system) exist in order to avoid low level ganking as well as random ganking, and objectives and reason exsist in order to promote guild wars over politics, territories and world bosses.
You mean a toggle system? I still think in a big enough world you could have open PvP and restricted PvP in the same space with seperate contested areas. From there just give people good reasons to go in there, even if it's for something specific.
I like PvP, especially overworld PvP but with no structured application it's as bad as themepark games IMO where you're only concerned about one thing and don't appreciate the rest of the game.
True PvPers dont play MMOrpgs where Time and Gear be trumps above Player Skill.
FFA PvP does not work in a rpg wihtout rpg limitations and that is why most games fail as they be unlimited and also force players to adjust their living to the game instead of adjust the gaming to their live.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
OK, we have some additional arguments here it seems. Since I cba to reply to each individual post, I'll make another neat list of some of them.
"You're fighting strawmen here, and you don't even do it properly"
No I'm not and yes I am.
None of my arguments are strawmen (i.e. based upon imaginary opponents). This very thread has become ripe with exactly the type of arguments I list in the OP - arguments heard and seen in many different contexts and in many different places for a long time. None of them are imaginary or made up.
If you don't agree with my rebuttal of said arguments, fine. However, it does not mean I have not rebutted them.
"You're being a horrible, condescending person because you use the word 'butthurt' once in your wall of text"
I am truly, deeply, very very sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings. That was not my intention.
On the other hand, one could perhaps wish that the discussion could focus on the actual subject and not on a word commonly used to describe the over-sensitive kind of person who can not stand being owned in any type internet situation.
My post was not an attack on PVE players (and I can't understand how it can be read as such), only as a critique of the stupid arguments often made against one of my favorite playstyles.
"You FFA PVP people would cry of you got a taste of your own medicine"
Funny, I've been killed countless times in multiple games - often by superior players, often in an "unfair" way, and often by multiple opponents - and I've never, ever raged about it cried or sent angry PMs. Why would I? I knew what I was getting into, I played these games fully aware that I was going to get killed. Only an idiot gets angry because he dies in a computer game.
"People who play FFA PVP games are just snotty kids"
Not true at all. All the guilds and clans I've played with in FFA games have had an 18+ policy and strived to be as mature as possible. Sure there are pre-teens around in any game, but they usually flock to games like WOW, not EVE, DF and MO.
Running a big guild successfully in a territory control game is no easy matter. If some 13 year old can do it, kudos to him/her. Still, most of the best players in these types of games are generally well over 20. Some are even as old as I am, lol (not that I'm one of the best ofc).
"People who play FFA PVP games are scum, the worst of the worst, I'm happy they stay in their mental asylums and don't ruin my cuddly PVE games"
That is a very mature, non-condescending attitude, I wish more of you grown-up PVE-only enthusiasts could sport it more often. Makes you look really good.
"PVP communitites are not welcoming at all, PVE communites are all love and hugs"
Sorry, but that's just bs. There are plenty of nice, helpful, generous people in ALL games. And plenty of selfish, arrogant, immature pricks. In ALL games.
Stop generalizing so much people.
"I'm a really good PVPer myself and I dislike FFA PVP, which means FFA PVP sucks"
Well, most people think they're good. At least until they get owned.
Tastes differ, and whether a person likes or dislikes FFA PVP has nothing to do with skill, just preference. Some people excel at the type of skill involved in open world games, others melt faces in BGs and MOBAS. To each his own.
Note: nowhere do I state that FFA PVP is superior to all other playstyles. But it exists and people like it. Live with it.
"There must be something wrong with you if you like to inflict pain upon another person's pixels - instead you should strive to behave morally in all online situations, just like you would do irl"
Yeah, I'll start losing on purpose then, so that the other person will feel better. Just like I would do in a game of chess, or in a strategy game. I mean, we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here, do we? Games are not played to win at all, but to be nice and sweet to each other, right?
Just like in war, right? The "good guys" fighting in a morally superior way, while the "soulless" enemy behaves like a Hollywood villain.
You're exactly the type of person you ridicule in the OP - you want all games to cater to your taste"
Not at all. I enjoy different types of games, and I love diversity. That's why I hate it when some people can not accept that others enjoy what they do not. I'm all for PVE games, SP RP games, FPS games, strategy games, and FFA PVP games. Let people play what they want, and don't make such a fuss about a playstyle you personally dislike.
Ranting about how 90% of the market (numbers pulled from someone's rear end btw) only wants PVE themeparks just goes to show how narrow-minded some of the posters here are.
"Well, there are some asshats out there, aren't there?"
There sure are. But they are everywhere, not only in games. Learn to accept that they're there, learn to beat them instead of crying about it.
Edit: added some stuff
Actually, you are creating strawmen left and right. And if the term is unknown to you, I suggest you refresh your memory here:
If we are talking about a sandbox game, how is FFA PVP fair for the non-combat oreinetd character? The only FFA PVP game I really ever tried on any level was Perpetuum Online for a few months when it released. Most people back then recommended 2 accounts. One for crafting and one for combat. Being a non combat oriented player was just not a good idea and yet, that was a role in the game. THis is my issue with FFA PVP.
you can PVE without ever getting attacked in perpetuum. It doesnt have a sliding security scale like eve. It has 100% pve areas, 100% pvp areas, like in a rvr game only its a sandbox.
which suggest you never played it.
Why on earth would I make up a lie about whether I played a craptastic, garbage EVE clone that nobody plays? If anything, I should be running around denying I ever knew of it's existence. Not to mention you took my post out of context. I never said anything about staying in Alpha vs going to Beta.
FFA PvP attracts griefers: Fact. Sorry it is, unless there a penalty on it, you WILL see high levels ganking lowbies and just over-all griefing those who stand no chance.
I wouldn't mind FFA if people weren't tools, but sadly, the human race has develoved quite a lot in MMos and a good majority of PvPers can be which just ruins the game. I just remember AoC the fact people would stand by waiting to kill someone purposely being at cap level of the starting area just to kill you as you walked through the door, which only got worst as you got to mainland and they would purpose jump you in areas much to low for their level.
FFA pvp WITH purpose is fine... maybe I need to play a FFA PvP - RP server or something for me to like it.
"The devs will want to make money, so why don't they just remove the FFA PVP and attract more players?"
This line of reasoning is usually accompanied by some hobby economics bullshit, and just goes to show that sadly, many people believe money is the ultimate be-all end-all and that anyone not pursuing ultimate profit rates is out of his mind. These people can not understand that some devs primarily want to make a good game, a game they want to play, not make shitloads of money.
Of course, most devs need to make some money, or the game will die. But as mentioned above, all games do not need to have WOW-like numbers to be successful. Removing FFA and catering to the mainstream would be contrary to the core philosophy behind a game like DF, DayZ or Salem. It would not be the same game.
Also, it annoys me that some random forum people have the gall to try and tell devs (who have usually spent years developing the game) how to run their business - as if these entitled, spoiled, selfish internet brats knew better what the game in question needs. This of course goes for a lot of badly thought-out, opinionated bullshit floating around the gaming community, not only regarding FFA PVP games but games in general.
The part about the forum people telling devs how to make their games is especially annoying for me. If someone is developing a game they should have a clear vision of what the finished product will be and not need suggestions from the masses. If a dev needs feedback from their players to tell them that their game is turning out awful then that dev should find a new career.
True PvPers dont play MMOrpgs where Time and Gear be trumps above Player Skill.
FFA PvP does not work in a rpg wihtout rpg limitations and that is why most games fail as they be unlimited and also force players to adjust their living to the game instead of adjust the gaming to their live.
I don't think many here are complaing that FFA PvP games do exist or that those games should try to change thier design focus. We are just trying to explain why FFA PvP games tend to be pretty unpopular, even with many players who enjoy other types of PvP.
While I don't care for PVP, I'll give people one simple reason out of the hundreds there are why PVP is unpopular.
They call every PVE player a carebear as a derogatory term. People are not welcomed in PVP communities, they are put down, in PVE communities they are welcomed with open arms.
What world do you live in CalmOceans? It seems everything you believe in every thread is entirely assumptions, void of actual life experience. My entire 15 years of hardcore MMORPG gaming and my degree in psychology are both in direct contradiction to almost everything you claim (incorrectly assume) about PvPers.
PvPers do not call every PvE player a carebear. That is a very small amount of players. Do you not know that those who post on forums or even those who talk in public chat are in the extreme MINORITY of the playerbase? Look up Battlefield Online and the developers vs. forum haters when introducing RMT (better weapons for IRL cash) to the FPS game. They ignored the forum ragers, became incredibly successful (and are making their second game bc of it), and found out that most players don't believe what the vocal minority shout so vehemently.
People are VERY welcome in PvP communities, just as much as people are NOT welcome in PvE communities.
You claim people are welcomed with open arms in PvE games, but that is not true at all. You claim people are not welcome in PvP communities, and this is also not true. In my experience which is quite vast in both, they are identical because the people are....people. PvP or PvE does NOT change their personality or social functioning like you so fasely believe (assume).
I can cite plenty of examples firsthand of PvP communities welcoming others with open arms, and give you an overwhelming amount of PvE communities who are extremely vicious to any newcomers. Hell, I'd rather join an extreme Darkfall PvP guild of thugs than to try to join a end-of-game (the game is dead now) DAoC PvE guild full of veteran elitists.
Comments
The funny part is. In general in europe the arguement is completely the other side. A Role Playing game have to have FFA PvP on, so you are able to play your role. And over there are a few dedicated roleplaying boards, even in the nowadays more or less died out roleplaying scene for mmorpgs.
That a good FFA PvP game should have different consequences for different kinds of player kills is another discussion, and i agree with it. That you have to handle different kills(in lore) differently.(like it is as example in Arche Age) But to turn PKin off is no solution at all. But on the other side roleplaying in MMORPGs become anyway more or less non existent since the masses(WoW and even before) where attracted from MMORPGs.
I got some decent role playing in Old UO and a lot in some UO freeshards, after that it become less and less. I got in DAoC or SWG involved in some kind of roleplaying. But after WoW or almost any game after WoW i really didnt encounter any roleplaying, and withit i am didnt roleplay a lot in MMORPGs anymore. It is just frustrating nowadays. Therefore i play regulary PnP Sessions with a few friends for that.
If they would maybe again reduce the masses in MMORPGs, with servers with just a few hundred, i guess, it could be possible again to really roleplay. But somehow i doubt that we will something like that anywhere in the next few years.
Ohh... and that is now rather off topic.
I only play and/or engage in pve mmos, not because Im a carebear or because I dont like pvp in mmos. I think that the only meaningful pvp is FFA and full loot.
But my *ONE* problem with ffa pvp is consequences. in ffa mmos, there arent any. And without proper consequences for something as serious as killing another player, you cease having a game world, and start having a deathmatch game. Might as well play chivalry or war of the roses, at least those games have proper gameplay, not this hotbar bullshit.
So again, to recap, give me a FFA PVP mmo with proper consequences for being a twat, and I'll play the shit out of it. As long as its also a good mmo, ofc.
well in my opinion weve had about 10 years of pve dominance, and i think thats just about enough.
its been explored to death and i think its time for something new, which i hope is world pvp, which is not the same as ffa pvp.
Instead of trying to downplay all the abuse that goes on in PVP games by little kids and shockingly sometimes adults who gank, grief, emotionally abuse and harass fellow players, you should recognise your community has a problem.
Many of the same kids who enjoy their foul-mouthed behavior on Xbox and who revel in the idea of hurting another human being and making their life as miserable as humanly possible, are the same people who play PVP.
The issue is with your community, and PVE players have distanced themselves from that type of behavior.
And there you have my counter argument.
There is one thing I will agree with tho, that pvp needy players and griefers alike are usually pretty pleasent persons in real life - This is because real life has consequences. I know people like this, I have good friends like this, but I don't play with them or try to discuss games with them because they have fundamentally different ideas of what makes a game interesting.
And then there are the true pvp'rs who plays pvp for the challange, this crowd are unfortunately not dominating pvp games.
To that I see it in this way, there are true pvp players which the OP are probably referring to, and then there are the asshats that everyone against are talking about - Both commonly and unjustifyably mixed up and just referred to as pvp'rs.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
out of these three phrases which is the most offensive to call someone?
sociopath
psychopath
carebear
Ironically if you look at a modern pve ruleset, most of the rules were put in place to prevent such issues. They dont put in new rules for no reason. Truth is that the zealotry of the pve cause is its own worst enemy. Sanitize until nothing is left.
I like it when games force people into PvP. I really hate when people see that it's a free for all PvP mmo, they beg for a PvE server and get one. Where do you think all the server's excellent victims/productive members (The RPers, peace lovers, crafters, casual gamers,cyberers) go? To the PvE server and the community on the PvP server becomes terrible before the game even launches.
Humorously, news of Wizardry online being "Permadeath" and FFA PK has people commenting on those news articles the exact arguments that OP lists.
I do think some Pkers are sociopaths though. If a Persona is an extension of yourself that you can summon and cast spells with. I think you can really tell though, most aren't crazy per say but it takes a special kind of person to want to go out and ruin a person's day.
The problem with FFA PvP is that the community is only as good as the most vile member.
/thread
The main problem is that carebears use to compare the meaningless pvp in pvp servers of non-pvp MMOs with the pvp in a OWPvP game.
The basic difference between them is that an OWPVP game has consequences and objectives for world pvp, it is not a random gankfest like in themeparks, where randoms kill randoms just to farm gear. The consequences(like a pk system) exist in order to avoid low level ganking as well as random ganking, and objectives and reason exsist in order to promote guild wars over politics, territories and world bosses.
You mean a toggle system? I still think in a big enough world you could have open PvP and restricted PvP in the same space with seperate contested areas. From there just give people good reasons to go in there, even if it's for something specific.
I like PvP, especially overworld PvP but with no structured application it's as bad as themepark games IMO where you're only concerned about one thing and don't appreciate the rest of the game.
True PvPers dont play MMOrpgs where Time and Gear be trumps above Player Skill.
FFA PvP does not work in a rpg wihtout rpg limitations and that is why most games fail as they be unlimited and also force players to adjust their living to the game instead of adjust the gaming to their live.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
That is the scepter we walk with, because of ignorance.
2004 ruined the mmo-community.
Actually, you are creating strawmen left and right. And if the term is unknown to you, I suggest you refresh your memory here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Why on earth would I make up a lie about whether I played a craptastic, garbage EVE clone that nobody plays? If anything, I should be running around denying I ever knew of it's existence. Not to mention you took my post out of context. I never said anything about staying in Alpha vs going to Beta.
FFA PvP attracts griefers: Fact. Sorry it is, unless there a penalty on it, you WILL see high levels ganking lowbies and just over-all griefing those who stand no chance.
I wouldn't mind FFA if people weren't tools, but sadly, the human race has develoved quite a lot in MMos and a good majority of PvPers can be which just ruins the game. I just remember AoC the fact people would stand by waiting to kill someone purposely being at cap level of the starting area just to kill you as you walked through the door, which only got worst as you got to mainland and they would purpose jump you in areas much to low for their level.
FFA pvp WITH purpose is fine... maybe I need to play a FFA PvP - RP server or something for me to like it.
The part about the forum people telling devs how to make their games is especially annoying for me. If someone is developing a game they should have a clear vision of what the finished product will be and not need suggestions from the masses. If a dev needs feedback from their players to tell them that their game is turning out awful then that dev should find a new career.
Also the problem I would think is more about these games having underdeveloped pve, basically glorified PvP arenas.
"True Skill" logic at its best.
What world do you live in CalmOceans? It seems everything you believe in every thread is entirely assumptions, void of actual life experience. My entire 15 years of hardcore MMORPG gaming and my degree in psychology are both in direct contradiction to almost everything you claim (incorrectly assume) about PvPers.
PvPers do not call every PvE player a carebear. That is a very small amount of players. Do you not know that those who post on forums or even those who talk in public chat are in the extreme MINORITY of the playerbase? Look up Battlefield Online and the developers vs. forum haters when introducing RMT (better weapons for IRL cash) to the FPS game. They ignored the forum ragers, became incredibly successful (and are making their second game bc of it), and found out that most players don't believe what the vocal minority shout so vehemently.
People are VERY welcome in PvP communities, just as much as people are NOT welcome in PvE communities.
You claim people are welcomed with open arms in PvE games, but that is not true at all. You claim people are not welcome in PvP communities, and this is also not true. In my experience which is quite vast in both, they are identical because the people are....people. PvP or PvE does NOT change their personality or social functioning like you so fasely believe (assume).
I can cite plenty of examples firsthand of PvP communities welcoming others with open arms, and give you an overwhelming amount of PvE communities who are extremely vicious to any newcomers. Hell, I'd rather join an extreme Darkfall PvP guild of thugs than to try to join a end-of-game (the game is dead now) DAoC PvE guild full of veteran elitists.
Exactly, PvErs are saints compared to those PvP felons.
"People who play FFA PVP games are sociopaths"
Unfortunately, the rest of the hate-soaked original post seems to only support this statement.