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Ye Golden Trinity - EQ, DAOC, SWG
Uproar
Member UncommonPosts: 521
All I ever hope for from every new MMO I play -- will it be as good as EQ. And every new game is a letdone, even a disaster.
Right path: EQ, DAOC, SWG; Wrong path: EQ2, AOC, War, GW2, Wow, UO, AC, everything else.
I am not saying those on the wrong path weren't fun for a time, but they never fufulled my desires. Each could only hold my attention for months -- not years.
EQ had the best classes ever. Period.
EQ had fun races, great grouping, the best dungeons (pre instancing and to an extent pre-raiding levels).
I would just like a DEV that redid EQ and added mechanics from DAOC and SWG.
DAOC added great melee mechanics (positionals, reactionaries, stealth, etc). DAOC had the best crafting and shop system system EVER. Home ownership. SWG took that home ownership to the next level, especially with being able to put it nearly anywhere in game and with the reasusability of nearly every item in the game in support of housing. SWG with addition of leasiure classes such as musician and dancer and medics (pre CU / pre NGE). Games need more of these classes.
The recipe for the next best game seems rather obvious to me. Yet we spent all our time building from the failures -- not the successes. Want the next big thing devs? Start with the pieces I describe above. Stop following the gimmicks. You'll never have players for years based on Wow, Rift, GW2 -- they just do not inspire anyone.
No apologies -- just how I feel.
And oh yeah -- the Holy Trinity is not Tank, Healer, and DPS. It is and always was Tank, Cleric, and Enchanter!!! And I like my gaming that way.
Comments
Clearly you know your original eq.
i never played SWG (dont like space mmo's for some reason) but i agree with everything else, however i think the next great game has to do alot more than that.
I a msurprised you would eliminate UO and AC. I know that is your personal preference but they are both still running so they must have some long term appeal for some.
I agree otherwise though.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
I understand some folks liked UO and AC -- I never understood AC's attraction. UO I think the attraction was both a hold over of Ultima fanatism (which I shared ala Apple IIs), but mever shared much of the fandom for early PVP. Your point about longevity is certainly true. Perhaps there is a piece of the answer in each, but I can't provide it.
As to wanting or thinking it must be something more -- Yes. But no one has started from the base set. Include the aspects whereby EQ used an immense landmass to create interest and variety yet still maintained small phase-in zones to provide 3-4 (more?) growth areas for the lower levels to funnel through, but always left some extreme option for those that needed to stretch a bit.
I like Wow's auction house -- it mostly works. Why does it work and other games do not? I am not sure. I like Wow's bgs -- they work; I like the dungeon match-up system -- to an extent, but it needs worked into an open non-instance EQ type dungeon crawl.
I like the dynamic events of GW2 and Rift -- put those in EQ and I might never have left (well I would have, but time creates wisdom and it seems mostly just time).
Anyways yes. EQ is the starting point still. Has been for years. Nothing new. But still not utilized. The classes and the grouping mechanics were key. I think a fatel flaw was that group sizes were limiting in the early days. Group benefits lacked combo skills and should have boosted xp to increase need/desire for socializing. Socializing is king in MMOs. Too little socializing and the MMO dies -- without exception.
SWG had the best crafting system in any game to date but everything else was sort of a letdown, DoAC was a formidable PVP experience by what I am told but not really great in everything else and EQ in the olden days had rewarding PVE which felt meaty even if grindy at times. The fact of the matter is though you can only ever have 2 out of 3 in any game, PVP and PVE for example can be stellar but the crafting will be dismal (one clear cut example of this is EVE-Online which is a bloody beast I've sunk years of my life into but who's crafting just isn't really there, the PVP is way above average and the PVE element due to the infiltration of PVP in every facet of EVE is also thrilling at times and on average at least mildly entertaining), or it can have any other mix of the 3. As a further argument to the rule I've stated above GW2 tried to have all 3 and while a good game which is worth every cent all 3 facets (PVP,PVE and crafting) are average overall.
My stern advice to people is to stop searching for the El Dorado of MMOs, that perfect blend of superior PVP, PVE and crafting because it will never happen and getting your hopes up will not help. Instead look for games, such as EVE or how SWG pre-CU was, where emergent gaming becomes a factor in your experience of the game. Hell it could even be a themepark game if the emergent/player driven element is strong then the motivation will be there ( one of my exs played Forsaken World religiously even though she had done everything to death due to her guild and the whole unique story and relationships that built up between her, her guild and other players/guilds and I've had this happen to myself in EVE as well, god knows it ain't fun being sandwiched between Goonswarm and AAA when they're on a war path x.x ).
That is why you didn't understand AC's attraction. The free form PvP with alliances, wars and politics on the Darktide server was the best ever. Also it had an open ended skill system and leveling, free form vs the structured classes and content which EQ had.
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UO was top dog for me.
No apologies - just how I feel.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
i like most/if not all of your points, i havent played much eq, but i was a ffxi fan back in the day and alot of the things you explain are things i look for.
mostly i agree witht the "Group benefits lacked combo skills and should have boosted xp to increase need/desire for socializing. Socializing is king in MMOs. Too little socializing and the MMO dies -- without exception."
i dont believe solo'ing should even come close to the xp you can get in a group. in ffxi there was almost no xp'ing without a group, while i do think thats the extreme, i would like it a little closer to that extreme then the you can solo everthing extreme
I think if $ony hadn't bought out EQ it might still be rolling today. I loved the race inequality on EXP. and how hardcore versus easy was combined. Worst bard half elf (me) easyest barbarion warrior. I was at 32 when others in my guild reached 50.
DOAC was abandoned, A shame really. If they had dropped the price how many would have dropped WOWHAMMER in a instant and went back to it? I think alot. It had everything to me.
My friends all convinced me to go play EVE with them and it was great till the big employee/player cheating debacle. I lost billions as my Corp. did as well and the game was never as good again after. I went back to DOAC and most had run to hammer. I did notice alot checking back though.
The trinity for me was bard and 2 songs twistin hehe
Suprised at the no UO, since SWG was made by the people that made UO for the most part. It wasn't ffa pvp, but you can tell a lot of the same types of systems...
My top 5 MMOs are
UO, EQ, DAoC, VG, SWG
Not saying they didn't have problems, but thats the list. Vanguard had a lot of depth, despite it's problems. SWG just needed some more content/balancing, not the rework it got imo.
Yes! This is exactly what I've mentioned to game friends for years, that I want an updated EQ but with PvE features from DAOC and SWG, particularly those you mentioned. This would be my perfect mmo.
THIS
This is why crafting in all of the newer titles is a major letdown. It seems like crafting is an after thought now in mmo development.
Id say Golden Age instead of Golden Trinity
UO
AC
EQ
DAOC
SWG
FFXI
Those five titles defined what I thought mmorpgs would be about.
Forget Anarchy Online's skill system
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You completely left out FFXI, which was just an EQ clone but with the best class system ever.
Seriously, screw alts. I want to level every class on one character again. This actually gave your name meaning as opposed to hiding behind different alts.
One thing i don't want to ever see again though is camping of world spawns. I wasted an unacceptable amount of time doing that for years.
Obviously the OP never played FFXI.
Crafting in FFXI is insane,sure most if not everyone would like to be able to craft at your level and make it useful,but FFXI is not that crap ALTaholic design,your player lives on forever over every class,so crafts do become useful at all levels.The crafting depth is massive,including gardening on it's own is a massive craft.Also food for example is VERY useful during fights,not after fights like Eq and many other games that copied that idea.Mana is also not easily replaced,it makes for much more skilled management of mana use.
As for combat positionals ,well that is a very in depth topic,i can't really go into detail in one post but i will say ya it can be important and a good part of a game,depending how it is implemented.Stealth,NO a big fat NO,dumb idea.I say this referring to PVP,it is great in PVE.
Speaking of invisible,FFXI also did the aggro system with more depth than any other game,not only was there sight but also scent/hit points and sound aggro and magic aggro.
I don't want to turn this into a FFXI thread but that game already did most everything and in more depth than other games.The ONLY thing it left out was it didn't care about PVP even though it's pvp design was FAIR and still decent fun.Personally i don't care one bit about pvp either,it is a distration from enjoying PVE and role playing my character.
As to EQ alone,their own staff realized it's failures that is why Sigil and Vanguard was designed to make a better versikon of EQ.EQ2 also did a better job but has been changed a million times from day 1.SOE makes soooo many changes,it makes you wonder how much thought they put into their game designs,i say not much.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
haha yeah this bring back memory when i played my ranger pull the mob to the warrior and taunt failed ranger goes splat lol those were they days.
Those 6 titles you mean???
But yes i would agree with you there, (although i didnt play DAOC,SWG or FFXI) but i do agree with the first three, EQ was my favorite and realy hope they do it right again with EQ next, but we will need to wait and see next year when there gonna to let people try it at the fanfaire.
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SWG did NOT have the trinity. I don't remember anyone ever playing a medic. Now most people added medic skills so they could self heal, but someone who's main class was medic, they just did not exist. For a good reason of course since you could only have one character per server, they had to have useful skills. Unless you pvp'd all the time, medic was not that useful a skill. After NGE when I had to turn my creature handler into a medic, I just quit the game, Medic was just a very unfun class.
I respect your opinion, but the funny thing was how EQ's restrictive classes really turned me off, but I will agree you really had to group in EQ which was a good thing. Now a days, you turn on your looking for group flag, you might as well take a long nap.
While I was a fan of EQ and DAoC never played or was interested in SWG. I have to say Numbers dont lie. We old timers might not like some of the direction that MMOs have taken. However to sit there and say they built on the failures is entirely incorrect. The developers are businesses and well the business is thriving due to catering to the casual crowd.
that said alot of good features have come from the new games. Along with some bad.