Cash shop items are usually individual items. Pay to win, when it comes to a cash shop, usually involves an item that is not obtainable in-game, that will give you an unfair advantage over people who play. Or it allows you to skip the grind to obtain said item.
Expansions generally do not give you any items. It gives you access to items, as well as a significant amount of content. It is all in-game and they do not really give anyone an unfair advantage over another. You ultimately need to work to obtain the access you recieve by purchasing an expansion. You don't buy it and immediately level up 10 times, or become a hero to certain factions in order to gain items.
The closest similiarity would be if you considered an expansion, a map pack, feature pack, and item pack all in one. But still, you ultimately need to work towards the end game, you aren't just handed it in traditional pay to win shops.
Thats why I said P2W items should include a dungeon pack or something where you have to get the items from. That way they can call it "content" and not P2W. I should sell this idea...
I agree that if you sold a very easy "dungeon" that took like 15 minutes and had the most powerful items at the end of it, then that would be P2W.
But you are basically taking the concept of the paid expansion or DLC to an extreme point that no game has ever taken it. And you can't really use a hypothetical, extremely specialized example to argue the general point that expansions are supposedly P2W.
The fact is that every single expansion I have played has not been P2W. Is it possible to craft an expansion so that it is P2W? Sure.
Has it ever happened? Not to my knowledge.
I'm only using the hypothetical to point out that essentially you are buying the gear. The fact that I can't get that epic gear or even more I can't even get the new levels without paying $40 is pay to win. It's just what we are used to.
Eve is heavily dependent on IG money which can be bought by RL money through PLEX. So Eve is also Pay2Win.
As for expansions, well if people with expansions are competing in the same world as people without expansions, like PvP battlegrounds and PvE content then I guess expansions could be considered Pay2Win. However, keep in mind that buying an expansion gives you nothing, it just allows you to get more power but you still have to actually do what it takes to get that power increase.
Saying eve is pay-2-win because of plex is just ridicules and you cant possibly be serious.
So what people are really saying is. As long as that "epic sword of killeverything" comes with content that you have to overcome first to get it. Then its not P2W.
So if a P2W game stopped selling epic gear for instance, but instead they started selling epic dungeons! Which was the only place to get the epic gear, it would be ok? Cause thats not P2W its a small expansion pack.
2 people in an expansion without cash shop are balanced 100% against each other, no one has an advantage
2 people in a game with a cash shop with power items could be completely unbalanced
(Yes, expansions unlock the ability to gain more power, but some people are purposely ignoring the simple fact that on a content basis, everyone is balanced completely, and that is, what matters)
Saying eve is pay-2-win because of plex is just ridicules and you cant possibly be serious.
Money cant buy skills champ, lol
But if you don't pay, you can't play EVE (disregarding PLEX).
If you can't play EVE, you can't win EVE (by scamming people for 700bil, or becoming CSM and taunting suicidal players)
Therefore, if you don't pay, you can't win.
You are purposely completely missing the point and obviously didn't even read the OP or later replies I made.
For one, if the game is a full sub game...everyone is expected to pay 15 dollars a month. There isn't anyone locked out of content.
A 30 dollar (or I've seen them 60 dollars now lol)...expansion comes out...suddenly there are the haves (those with an expansion) and have-nots (those without)...the game raises the level cap, adds items far more powerful than the old raids...and those who don't buy the expansion, can no longer compete.
I think GW1 is actually a lot more fair in their expansions, they do add skills...but everyone is still more or less on an even playing field. I never played GW1 past 30 days, since I didn't care for it...so I might be wrong. I do know the level cap doesn't rise, and items aren't that big of a deal. Not sure about skills however.
EVE of course as I mentioned, has free expansions and free content updates...all you are expected to do is subscribe for 15 dollars a month. Of course, as mentioned, there is PLEX...which I guess one could buy tons of PLEX, play for free and never have to worry about in-game money again.
But PLEX and expansions are vastly different. In EVE, even if I don't buy PLEX...I can still get EVERYTHING in the game. In a paid expansion, I am suddenly limited in what I can do and others get very "overpowered" compared to those without the expansion...very different than EVE and PLEX.
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I think part of the discussion is the confusion the OP is creating by putting WoW and EVE in the same bracket and comparing PVP with PVE.
In a PVE game like WoW, if someone buys an expansion, they are not sharing content with players who don't have the expansion, in a FFA PVP game this is the case, and expansions could become a form of Pay2Win, but in a PVE game this is impossible, the content is locked behind the purchase of the expansion and everyone buying the expansion is on a level paying field, people not playing don't have access to begin with so can't be compared.
I get to level 60...all is fine. I do raids, get raid items...eventually get a whole raid set. Expansion comes out called Burning Crusade. Suddenly, I am FORCED to buy it...as I would be unlocked out of 10 levels, unable to go to the new lands and can't get any of the new items...which greens end up better than the previous raid items. So, I am now having to pay to win. If I don't pay, I can't compete...and there is no other means to level or get items with everyone else who has the expansion.
So in your estimation; the original WoW should have had an infinite amount of content, so that as they add expansions, you can continue to level in the original world and not have to touch the expansion. In addition, the original game would keep you geared to an equal amount as those in the expansion. This would also indicate the original game would have to add content so you could keep levelling. I guess you could be suggesting that you could stay in the original game, get free items and lvls as expansions come out. You wouldn't have to buy the expansion, but its benefits would somehow automatically appear to you because you have the original game. So are you suggesting a better business model for them would be free to win. Buy the original, and as expansions come out, we'll keep you geared and lvl'd with no additional cost. Those who buy the expansion will have to work for those benefits - they are paying to win.
In other words. Your premise is so ludicrous it really doesn't bear any type of analysis.
What the hell is the OP even talking about? If you don't buy an expansion, it's not like you're getting paired up with people at the new max level for PvP. And since it's an MMO, you can't really "win" it, so PvE is pretty black in white. Either you pay for the expansion and play the new stuff, or you don't and keep playing the older stuff.
By your definitions, every game would be "pay to win."
Can't afford an internet connection? Complain about P2W.
Can't afford a new expansion? Complain about P2W.
Can't afford an upgraded computer to run the game? Complain about P2W.
Can't afford to pay for food to stay alive when not playin? Complain about P2W.
In my opinion I think your right on this issue. An expansion is basically taking away all the previous work you did with the original game and replacing it with lower level items (like in wow) that surpass your hard earned items. I think that if they want to make a system like this work they would need some kind of balance to off set the fact that it takes a lot of time to acquire items that have almost no use if a new expansion comes out, lets say an upgrade system of sorts where yes you might have to pay in game currency but you have the option to upgrade your items like a blacksmith or such.
The best part about paying for subscriptions and expansions?? You don't have to contend with all the freeloaders who want to pay nothing and get a AAA polished game. There is a really old saying that you get what you pay for, so if you are happy with the quality of free games, by all means play them. Personally I find the level of polish on most pay to play games, to make them worth playing, (where the free or hybrids usually are not)
I have always thought paying for expansions on a subscription game is sketchy, but I wouldn't call it P2W. Pay-to-win denotes that there be virtually no effort on the part of the buyer.
Pay-to-win; Using physical currency to rent/purchase an advantage over others that can not be obtained by any other means.
Literal example; An uber weapon that can't be won or rewarded in a game. Common gamer example; XP Potions.
Do expansions fit the definition? I'm sure it can relate to it.
Edit: So I have come up with a scenario where expacs are P2W's, sort of.. If you have open world, full loot systems, along with traditional power based leveling. If one player buys the expansion and gets to max, he has an advantage over you in a competitive fasion.
I would only care for P2W items if they are in a competitive enviorment. If this was a co-op game which wasn't based on score; I'd approve of P2W; it helps the whole team.
From my understanding, pay to win usually means cash shop items...buy a game item for power, that can't be retained in any other way, for real life money.
Pay to win is a buisness model. Players purchase character advancement. It doesn't have anything to do with what a person perceives as "power".
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I'm only using the hypothetical to point out that essentially you are buying the gear. The fact that I can't get that epic gear or even more I can't even get the new levels without paying $40 is pay to win. It's just what we are used to.
Saying eve is pay-2-win because of plex is just ridicules and you cant possibly be serious.
Money cant buy skills champ, lol
But if you don't pay, you can't play EVE (disregarding PLEX).
If you can't play EVE, you can't win EVE (by scamming people for 700bil, or becoming CSM and taunting suicidal players)
Therefore, if you don't pay, you can't win.
2 people in an expansion without cash shop are balanced 100% against each other, no one has an advantage
2 people in a game with a cash shop with power items could be completely unbalanced
(Yes, expansions unlock the ability to gain more power, but some people are purposely ignoring the simple fact that on a content basis, everyone is balanced completely, and that is, what matters)
You are purposely completely missing the point and obviously didn't even read the OP or later replies I made.
For one, if the game is a full sub game...everyone is expected to pay 15 dollars a month. There isn't anyone locked out of content.
A 30 dollar (or I've seen them 60 dollars now lol)...expansion comes out...suddenly there are the haves (those with an expansion) and have-nots (those without)...the game raises the level cap, adds items far more powerful than the old raids...and those who don't buy the expansion, can no longer compete.
I think GW1 is actually a lot more fair in their expansions, they do add skills...but everyone is still more or less on an even playing field. I never played GW1 past 30 days, since I didn't care for it...so I might be wrong. I do know the level cap doesn't rise, and items aren't that big of a deal. Not sure about skills however.
EVE of course as I mentioned, has free expansions and free content updates...all you are expected to do is subscribe for 15 dollars a month. Of course, as mentioned, there is PLEX...which I guess one could buy tons of PLEX, play for free and never have to worry about in-game money again.
But PLEX and expansions are vastly different. In EVE, even if I don't buy PLEX...I can still get EVERYTHING in the game. In a paid expansion, I am suddenly limited in what I can do and others get very "overpowered" compared to those without the expansion...very different than EVE and PLEX.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
I think part of the discussion is the confusion the OP is creating by putting WoW and EVE in the same bracket and comparing PVP with PVE.
In a PVE game like WoW, if someone buys an expansion, they are not sharing content with players who don't have the expansion, in a FFA PVP game this is the case, and expansions could become a form of Pay2Win, but in a PVE game this is impossible, the content is locked behind the purchase of the expansion and everyone buying the expansion is on a level paying field, people not playing don't have access to begin with so can't be compared.
So in your estimation; the original WoW should have had an infinite amount of content, so that as they add expansions, you can continue to level in the original world and not have to touch the expansion. In addition, the original game would keep you geared to an equal amount as those in the expansion. This would also indicate the original game would have to add content so you could keep levelling. I guess you could be suggesting that you could stay in the original game, get free items and lvls as expansions come out. You wouldn't have to buy the expansion, but its benefits would somehow automatically appear to you because you have the original game. So are you suggesting a better business model for them would be free to win. Buy the original, and as expansions come out, we'll keep you geared and lvl'd with no additional cost. Those who buy the expansion will have to work for those benefits - they are paying to win.
In other words. Your premise is so ludicrous it really doesn't bear any type of analysis.
What the hell is the OP even talking about? If you don't buy an expansion, it's not like you're getting paired up with people at the new max level for PvP. And since it's an MMO, you can't really "win" it, so PvE is pretty black in white. Either you pay for the expansion and play the new stuff, or you don't and keep playing the older stuff.
By your definitions, every game would be "pay to win."
You make me like charity
Well....How is paying your sub in WoW, not pay to win?!?!?! If someone doesn't pay, you will be able to do more than them!
Sorry....OP topic is a reach and rediculous imo.
Pay-to-win; Using physical currency to rent/purchase an advantage over others that can not be obtained by any other means.
Literal example; An uber weapon that can't be won or rewarded in a game. Common gamer example; XP Potions.
Do expansions fit the definition? I'm sure it can relate to it.
Edit: So I have come up with a scenario where expacs are P2W's, sort of.. If you have open world, full loot systems, along with traditional power based leveling. If one player buys the expansion and gets to max, he has an advantage over you in a competitive fasion.
I would only care for P2W items if they are in a competitive enviorment. If this was a co-op game which wasn't based on score; I'd approve of P2W; it helps the whole team.
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Pay to win is a buisness model. Players purchase character advancement. It doesn't have anything to do with what a person perceives as "power".