I agree with Bill 100% on this article. Another thing that noone talks about, is the players. Players and community are what sets MMOs apart from other genres. In today's games the community is nowhere as good as it used to be. Noone talks to each other, noone has to trade with each other, noone has to party with each other (at least with anyone they'll ever see again.). The old MMOs caused everyone to respect and honor everyone. If you didn't you were an outcast, and shunned bye almost everyone.
Ashen Empires comes to mind. In most part, everyone was friendly and nice to each other. Guilds formed unofficial alliances. People played as mercenaries, helping if a guild paid them. And even a very few people liked playing the outcast role. They would grief, full loot, corpse camp, and run for thier lives when a policing guild got word of thier wrong doing.
In Today's MMOs, this would never ever work. The community is too caught up about "me" to care about some poor guy that just got all his gear looted because a small gang of ruffians killed him. There would be no policing guilds, no friendly people who would go help kill them and get his gear back. In Today's MMOs, you're lucky if you get to talk to someone that isn't in your friends list or guild.
Another thing that new MMOs have done has become really quickly over. This comes to Bill's System section. MMOs today, take maybe a week without trying to hit cap. Old MMOs took months or even years to complete. Usually by then, there was an expansion with new content coming out, for most players. DAoC comes to mind here. It used to be that levels 40-50 took you at least a week, if you played non-stop, but generally took a month or more. When you finally hit 50, everyone cheered you, because it was a real achievement. In today's MMOs, you hit 90, 50, 20, or whatever the case may be, there really isn't any celebration. All you get is a "grats" in guild chat maybe...they can't even give you the time for a "congratulations". I remember when I first hit 50 in DAoC, my guild threw a party for me, and a few others that hit 50 that week. In today's MMOs, there is no sense of accomplishment. This is one of the reasons why some players play a MMO for 2 months, then they're done. After 2 months, there is nothing else to do. You have the best gear, you've completed all the quests and dungeons. You've been on ever raid and defeated every challenge.
There's no reason for you to stick around, since you've done everything, and there's no community to talk to. In old MMOs, I used to sit around and chat with people while standing in a bank, or guild house. In today's MMOs, there is no talking. I almost feel sometimes like I accidently turned off chat and almost have to check to make sure I didn't.
Thank you........I hadn't even realized how much has been cut out that I enjoyed.......
Quick,someone forward this to SOE for EQNext!
EQ2 is the game that closest resembles what Bill was getting at. No other current MMORPG is even in the same ballpark as EQ2 for this stuff. The most robust housing in MMO history? check (yes, its not open world like UO or SWG. but you can do more with it than even UO). Player made dungeons? check (albeit they still need some work, the framework is there).
SoE is embracing player made content and systems. They even tried player created quests in SWG. However, this is all being done on an existing framework, as opposed to building the game with it. EQNext is going to be built along side this sort of thing.
I agree the only issue with Eq2 i have atm is that the game is very very old and is way past its prime, combat system could be more dynamic as well in this day and age. After Tera ppl got spoiled :P
Player made content is great, but I think mmo's need to start making the mmo just for a certain type of player and just aim for those people. Only then will players be able to find that one mmo that they love and stick to it. I miss the days of camping one area, having a great class system that required more then just a tank, healer, and dps you needed a support class that slowed, debuffed and did CC just so you could make it through the fight since the mobs were made to be overly hard. Most mmos today I feel like I spend the whole time running, then one month later onto the next mmo and more freaking running. The classes are weak or boring everything gets boiled down to tank, healer, and dps. And no one talks to anyone else since, one you level way to easy and fast and two you spend more time running around then staying in one area killing to experiance the area. And instead of making something to prevent this mmo companies are perfecting this kill faster keep running don't stop starting to feel like an ADD squirrel on meth....
Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain
The problem with the sub model is both WoW and the $15/mo. Since most 'aaa' mmo's made in the last few years are really just WoW clones why should players pay $15 a month for a wow clone when they can just play wow? Developers are hung up on the $15 a month cause wow gets away with it.. Why not stop being greedy and killing your own games and charge $5 a month and use a cash shop for cosmetics? Nooooo, they would rather go 15 a month and kill the game when players say screw this after 3 months. Think about it.. $15x12= $180 a year!! Plus 60 for expansion packs! You could be buying 3-4 brand new games a year for the price of $15 a month.. Now if your sub is only $5 a month thats $60 a year, box cost of 1 new game.. You could still buy 2 brand new games a year while paying a sub.. Play these games while you wait for content patches.. Which would granted be slowwer with leas revenue, but you also wouldnt get burnt out because you got money for 2 other games to play!!
Basically, IMHO, I believe the majority of developers are too blinded by greed and killing the genre themselves.
Originally posted by ShakyMo The problem is company execs keep seeing the "10 million" playing wow and think if we make a game like wow and only pull 1 in 10 of those people we will make more money. We just have to make a game like wow with a couple of things that are missing from it.
Hence you get all these wow with a twist games. E.g.
Lotro - wow with rp features Rift - wow with rifts and free spec switching Swtor - wow with personal story War - wow with rvr and pqs Aoc - wow with action combat and boobies Tsw - wow with puzzles, story, semi action combat and skill based progression Tera - wow with action combat and bams TESO - wow with rvr and open dungeons? Nw - wow with player made dungeons?
twist games. E.g. ...with Better wow graphics.
<.<
Not even sure how to respond to this post.. TSW is nothing like Wow not even close no clue where you came up with half these games being like Wow....
I also see you forget to mention "THE PRECIOUS" because if anything that game should also be on your list if TSW is lol.....
The problem is MMOs by their very nature are dependent upon players sticking around in game for months or years at a time.
And this premise is based on...?
The fact that MMOs have been, since their creation, experiences based on long-term, on-going adventure, not short term, "beat it and move on", console-style gameplay... which is what they've largely become.
This is why you have people who are still playing games like Anarchy Online, EQ1, AC1, DAoC, FFXI and so forth all these years later - and still enjoying them. Because they offered that kind of depth and longevity in their experiences. It's why, even with all these other new games on the market now, they still remain playing them.
The problem is MMOs in the last several years have moved away from that; surely the result of big companies getting involved that had no clue about the genre they were getting into. They were just trying to get a piece of Blizzard's pie.
No, it's not "because they've put so much time into playing them and don't want to give up". I know that's a popular canned argument intended to undermine the long-term success and "keeping power" of those older MMOs. It's just a very poor and lazy one. When people are no longer finding enough enjoyment to continue paying for a game, they stop playing. No one spends years sticking with a voluntary activity they get no joy out of.
They stick with those games because they provide, among other things, the kind of elements that Bill touches on in his article. Systems. On-going, self-sustaining activities where the players are part of the content and of the experience. These are the kinds of experiences that true MMO communities build around - you know, the kind that us "old MMO fogeys" love to go on about? They develop because such systems require player interaction. When people interact, they get to know each other, they build online friendships, people become known across servers and, lo and behold, communities grow.
I see people trying to argue that it's perfectly reasonable for MMO-hopping to happen and that games should be created to support that (mostly through the F2P/Cash Shop model). I could not disagree with this more wholeheartedly. The fact that MMO hopping exists is a sign modern MMOs have failed to create or capture the kind of experience playing the 1st and 2nd generation MMOs was. It's a symptom of a bigger problem.
I gotta say, between Smedley's seemingly revelatory statements about the direction they're taking with EQNext (however much you can believe anything Smedley says), articles like Bill's showing up, and the amount of agreement I see in many of the follow-up comments... it seems maybe.. just maybe... developers are starting to slowly get it again. And maybe.. just maybe... we can get back to having MMORPGs that are true long-term experiences again, and not just short-term, throw away "games".
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have to disagree about WoW being a fluke. It was the first of its kind to be friendly to new MMOers. It had a very low learning curve and most of its content was easily accessible. I remember when I first started SWG in 2003 and it took me a good 2 months to learn the ins and outs of that game. Now I can jump into any current MMO and learn all I need to know in less than a hour.
WoW did to MMOs what Starbucks did to coffee. Starbucks got the masses to drink coffee that normally didn't like coffee. And it's not really the coffee most people like about Starbucks, it's all the sweet, flavored crap they pour into it. WoW did the same to MMOs. It's not the MMO part of WoW people like, it's the Skinner box method of getting players hooked on their epic shineys and they can't let go. Most don't give a flip about any true social aspects of MMOs. People that truly enjoy the MMORPG aspect are unfortunately in the minority. A fluke? I think not. It was a brilliant business strategy.
Your analysis is worthy of noble slow clap.
*slow clap*
So the question becomes; how do we close Pandoras box?
Virtual shiney rehab centers?
Kumbaya Online...a new horizon.
"Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"
Originally posted by Ozivois They need to slow down level progression - that will add more time to subs. Lower experience gain to a minimum so that players have to spend inordinate amounts of time in every area of the world. Offer raids for every ten levels. Limit daily experience gain. Make it so that rare level 20 armor is worth looking for because you will be able to use it for another month as you work your way to level 30...
In that case I think it might be better to get rid of levels altogether.
Let gear have stat and skill requirements instead of level and give out a stat point or skill instead of levels.
Being level 15 of 80 kinda stresses people out today. And it really hurts character customization as well.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that one of the major reasons the old school MMOs had much more longevity was because of the incredible GRINDING that most (all?) of those MMOs had incorporated into leveling, gaining rare equipment, etc. So let's not be too quick to praise these games for their longevity.
Wasn't it we, the MMO community, who complained about the whole grinding issue and beat it into the ground in the first place? That's probably one of the main reasons why MMO developers are making games the way they are now - anything that feels like a "grind" has become taboo, and thus developers feel compelled to give us instant rewards for minimal effort. The result is players, especially the more hardcore MMO players, burn through content quickly and move on. This is, in my opinion, the core reason why this problem even exists. We complained about grinding, and developers came up with an inadequate solution.
Developers need to think of new ways to keep us occupied. Sandbox features and player developed content are a great way to do this, for sure. But there are other solutions as well. A truly dynamic themepark MMO in which the content and make-up of the world is entirely dependent on the interaction between numerous world events, for example, could potentially keep a large number of players in a themepark enviornment engaged for a very long time.
Another issue is that developers are too enamored with the concept of creating a "personal story" for players. In an MMO, the focus needs to be on the community, not the individual. Personal stories make it so that players feel like they are "done" once their personal story is complete, and have no need or desire to help or interact with others (unless it is a friend or guild mate). What we need is a "group story". Maybe on a server-by-server basis... something that tells of the actions and achievements of the community as a whole, in a very specific way - mentioning guilds and characters that were influential, etc. Hopefully then, people will feel as if they're a part of something greater that is continually evolving and isn't necessarily "done" when they reach max level or whatever.
Sadly, in the end, developers are in it for the money, and what they're doing right now is making money. So real solutions won't come until the players demand it with their wallets. Or until some indie game company creates some kick-ass game out of their love for the genre.
Originally posted by Entris38 Thank you........I hadn't even realized how much has been cut out that I enjoyed.......Quick,someone forward this to SOE for EQNext!
EQ2 is the game that closest resembles what Bill was getting at. No other current MMORPG is even in the same ballpark as EQ2 for this stuff. The most robust housing in MMO history? check (yes, its not open world like UO or SWG. but you can do more with it than even UO). Player made dungeons? check (albeit they still need some work, the framework is there).
SoE is embracing player made content and systems. They even tried player created quests in SWG. However, this is all being done on an existing framework, as opposed to building the game with it. EQNext is going to be built along side this sort of thing.
I agree but find it strange that Bill never mentions EQ2 but talks about GW2 which is far away from what he is talking about. EQ2 is the closest example of what bill is talking about.
Then you have games like Vanguard which has some very nice features nope it dose not have player made content but it doesn't need to have it. It has a vast amount of content that is right up there with EQ2, it would also take a noob months to level and with diplomacy and crafting it would take a good year.
Seems to me that the OP is talking about features that some MMOs already have if people choose not to play them and go for the souless content lacking games like GW2 then its there problem.
Originally posted by orbitxo Originally posted by ShakyMo The problem is company execs keep seeing the "10 million" playing wow and think if we make a game like wow and only pull 1 in 10 of those people we will make more money. We just have to make a game like wow with a couple of things that are missing from it.
Hence you get all these wow with a twist games. E.g.
Lotro - wow with rp features Rift - wow with rifts and free spec switching Swtor - wow with personal story War - wow with rvr and pqs Aoc - wow with action combat and boobies Tsw - wow with puzzles, story, semi action combat and skill based progression Tera - wow with action combat and bams TESO - wow with rvr and open dungeons? Nw - wow with player made dungeons?
twist games. E.g. ...with Better wow graphics.
<.<</b>
Not even sure how to respond to this post.. TSW is nothing like Wow not even close no clue where you came up with half these games being like Wow....
I also see you forget to mention "THE PRECIOUS" because if anything that game should also be on your list if TSW is lol.....
I think Bill is having a laugh; we talk about this all the time. I call them two monthers or the like. Maybe nobody mentions this at press conferences and game shows.
The best revenue model is a sub with a fluff only cash shop. Unfortunately cash shops always end up containing pay to win elements later, even if they start with just fluff. Remember as well, if you only put the pay to win items in shop after a year, those two month casuals will not be there to buy them. I think this is what drove GW2 to include some minor PtW elements at launch.
User generated content is the best way forward, gaming systems will only go so far. But getting good quality user content and fitting it into the existing game is not easy. It did not save NWN before, so I don't think I am going out on a limb when I say it won't save them this time round.
Casual players want their Big Mac and fries, they make up the baulk of the player base, no new MMO is going to be a huge success long term while that remains true.
Well, Bill, you're quite late to the party, welcome anyway.
Yeah, i was thinking "You guys only figured this out now?" all the way while reading the article .
Regardless, i completly agree Bill. I don't hate story, questing, dungeons, cutscenes, voice-overs, etc at all (expect "personal" stories and voiced pc's). I think they bring good things to the game and give it greater quality. It's developers abusing them and turning them into the main focus of the entire game by 90% that angers. Once you're finished with it, it's over and there's nothing left to achive and play.
More "systems" and "non ending" activities are necessary and fortunatly, it seems quite a few devs are figuring this out. Let's hope mmorpgs like these are coming in the future.
I suppose I actually should have said, "The Problem Few Devs Are Acknowledging" but this seemed catchier.
In regards to GW2, I still think the game's fantastic... in fact, I love themeparks as much as I long for a good quality take on the Sandbox (Malu and EQNext I'm particularly looking forward to, as well as Darkfall:UW's PVP-oriented take). But a Theme-park can have quality longevity, just the same. For millions, WoW does the trick. I don't know how, but it does.
However, WoW (as the article states) is a fluke. It can afford to take time and sustain itself because of its insane amount of subscribers. As we've seen lately, that model just doesn't work with any other title.
Though I haven't plaid WoW in years, WoW, though a themepark, works because it gives you some choice to your progression. And I think choice - as well as systems AND content - is what will keep a player coming back.
In a themepark, you want to be able to choose and pick your rides, even if you come back to some of the same ones here and there. If you just get to ride the Big Wheel, you'll get bored quick. Throw in a few choices, and the propensity for early boredom is reduced, equalling higher customer retention.
Take SWTOR for example. It has failed in a sense that it probably wasn't expected to go F2P quite so early into it's lifespan. That's because, at the heart of the game, it brought nothing new to the systems department, and also had little choice. Once you got bored of the cutscenes, you realised that progression for each character was identical, and there was nothing you could do to alter that path.
Also, WoW is not a fluke. I'm quite surprised to see an industry veteran write that, though I doubt you meant it quite in the way I'm taking it. I don't have interior knowledge, but I am quite certain that Blizzard looked at all the other available MMO and single player games on the market, then carefully picked the elements that they saw people enjoyed. All these were then all piled in together with their existing IP. That's not a fluke, that's good business strategy.
Originally posted by korvassThat's because, at the heart of the game, it brought nothing new to the systems department, and also had little choice. Once you got bored of the cutscenes, you realised that progression for each character was identical, and there was nothing you could do to alter that path.
If only one could say why people are not into your product... Truth is, you do not know just like anyone else.
Fun. That is what every game should be. Not a timesink, not a leveling crawl...but fun. Somewhere along the line with all the slick graphics and shiny items the path of fun was lost. We need someone to blaze a trail back to the path and systems sounds like a step in the right direction.
Originally posted by Nomad40 Fun. That is what every game should be. Not a timesink, not a leveling crawl...but fun. Somewhere along the line with all the slick graphics and shiny items the path of fun was lost. We need someone to blaze a trail back to the path and systems sounds like a step in the right direction.
Yep, the technology somehow became more important than gameplay, and so a de-evolution began where the games became less featured because all of the time and money went into making the next big thing in visuals/cutscenes. The more constrained the gameplay, the less time and money for that aspect, which is harder to sell to investors than: watch this demo, see how great this looks! I love great looking games, but they are a waste of time if they don't have great gameplay with potential for longevity too.
Bait and switch games are 2 month prospects. The end user should push back on this practice.
Very good article. "Systems" are why I'm still playing Ultima Online 15 years later. Sure, I play other MMO's, but they always tend to get dull, whereas even after 15 years, with my rate of play, I still haven't seen and done everything in UO. Why? Because the basic systems, the crafting, the vendors, the player housing, the ability for players to create environments and situations to RP in, have kept me FAR more occupied than checking out a dungeon, or going after uber loot items.
That's because, at the heart of the game, it brought nothing new to the systems department, and also had little choice. Once you got bored of the cutscenes, you realised that progression for each character was identical, and there was nothing you could do to alter that path.
If only one could say why people are not into your product... Truth is, you do not know just like anyone else.
You can only guess.
He does not have to guess, it is all over the net. Pretty obvious the problems SWTOR had, too much expensive voice overs and cut scenes, that end up being skipped after playing the game awhile. The systems in the game were very poorly done hence the game has very little replayability and very little retainability. It won't do well as a f2p either.
While I agree with the sentiments regarding hybrid models I dont think it really contributes that greatly to the "Two months done, whats next" problem.
Developers seem to think Everyone wants a themepark game & there are many players who will tell you they love themeparks & defend the concept of themepark MMO's to the death. Problem is the majority of players who defend such a concept are also the players who play for 2-3 months then move on.
I have been saying for a while now that its impossible for themepark MMO devs to stay infront of player progression and provide quality new content faster than players can consume it, it just cannot be done. So Instead you need to have alternative activities for players to do (not just at endgame) that do not require you to generate lots of content rapidly. If you like, as a developer you can have your themepark but you need to let players get out of the themepark at their leisure.
The Hybrid Themepark with sandbox elements such as Wildstar is proposing is where new MMO's should be heading IMHO, letting players drive their own experience more instead of buying a ticket and hopping on for the ride which once completed is not all that interesting to repeat. New MMO's would do well to include things like.
- Randomised dungeons/mission areas. Randomised like Diablo/Torchlight. Get players into them through whatever concept you like (portals, magical maze that is ever shifting, dungeon hack style thing etc) but truly randomising it and giving players a reason to explore them will go a long way.
- Hold your themepark attractions inside a sandbox world. By that I mean make the world more of a sandbox, people will find the sandbox elements scattered throughout it (following fixed roads from quest hub to quest hub if you like) that are easily found, but for those who want to get off the themepark they can by going off exploring, finding non quest hub content.
- Incorporate world & zone events into your game from day 1. By this I mean make it easy for your live team to run impromtu events and plan these out and get players involved. Sure you can have static events like public quests & programmed world events but GM run events are often one of a kind.
- Let your players build upon the world. Allowing things like player run/controlled villages, player housing etc gives players a lot more to do and makes them feel a lot more part of the world instead of just strapped into a ride until it ends. Exploring the countryside and finding a small guild village with few player built buildings and a partially completed wall is a lot more exciting than just finding some new NPC content that has been added.
- Let your players do the heavy lifting. allowing players to generate quests & missions of their own (if handled well, ie: content vetted) is always well recieved. RPG communities are generally crammed with talented people who love to build stuff for friends and other players, just have a look at the Neverwinter Nights community. Naturally there is a need to vet content to make sure players arent making easy mission for fast leveling or making offensive content but there are easy ways of handling this.
- Its an MMO not a single player experience ! find better ways to encourage group play and build your community. Im not saying rip out all solo play as that is a big part of themeparks now but what I am saying is definitely put in content that can only be tackled by players working together, or perhaps even against each other.
While there is no quick fix we can only hope that new MMO's that are being planned now (for release in the next 2-3 years) can see the current themepark model is unsustanable and adapt accordingly.
yes ramdomised quest and dungeon is the best way to keep players for years in the game. But MMO need to be a long game not a game like swtor ! Swtor u reach the maximum lv in two weeks ! Stop it. I want to made quest, dungeon alone or with friends for month and years. And when i reach the max lv after 2 years i m happy.
currently mmo are disposable game, u play to 2 week and it s over u are lv 80. it s a shame. So now u are lv 80, u can do PVP or farm dungeon to have the tier 1 armor. After u can farm to have the tier 2... tier3 .... Where is the fun ?????? We want fun !
And stop dungeon for a team with a tank, healer and 3 dps. i want to play with my 2 friends and do some dungeon with them or alone. Without tank, without healer. Just 3 dps that want to have some fun.
Stop dungeon with boss that need 30 mn of fight, with one need to do this, an other need to touch the pillar .... It fun the first tim after it s very boring.
Ramdom boss in ramdom dungeon with random quest inside it s the best way to keep players.
And let players play alone if they want to do it. Stop quest that need 3 or 5 peoples to do it.
You see, there are sandboxes that actually fulfill your points. Have you seen milions of eager players on them? Certainly not. I don't think systems alone cut it anymore. Many people want to be told what to do and almost all needs some reason to do what they do. Or I believe so.
For me the best way to go is theme park that sort of simulates Sandbox. You get a direction, but you are not able to do anything you want. Let's say you have a continent to settle. NPCs will do "planning" while players will do labor. Of course you can let players influence planning as well, but it's important NPCs fill those places. I've just seen too many forgotten and abandoned viliges in sandboxes. So you can go and build your city and systems for that would be sort of sandboxish, but still NPCs will give you direction and purpose to do so.
This being said, it should be fairly easy to implement as you set systems in place and adding content is not such a huge problem (you can always go and settle another continent). Along this base system, you can add other content like dungeons and other events.
Comments
I agree with Bill 100% on this article. Another thing that noone talks about, is the players. Players and community are what sets MMOs apart from other genres. In today's games the community is nowhere as good as it used to be. Noone talks to each other, noone has to trade with each other, noone has to party with each other (at least with anyone they'll ever see again.). The old MMOs caused everyone to respect and honor everyone. If you didn't you were an outcast, and shunned bye almost everyone.
Ashen Empires comes to mind. In most part, everyone was friendly and nice to each other. Guilds formed unofficial alliances. People played as mercenaries, helping if a guild paid them. And even a very few people liked playing the outcast role. They would grief, full loot, corpse camp, and run for thier lives when a policing guild got word of thier wrong doing.
In Today's MMOs, this would never ever work. The community is too caught up about "me" to care about some poor guy that just got all his gear looted because a small gang of ruffians killed him. There would be no policing guilds, no friendly people who would go help kill them and get his gear back. In Today's MMOs, you're lucky if you get to talk to someone that isn't in your friends list or guild.
Another thing that new MMOs have done has become really quickly over. This comes to Bill's System section. MMOs today, take maybe a week without trying to hit cap. Old MMOs took months or even years to complete. Usually by then, there was an expansion with new content coming out, for most players. DAoC comes to mind here. It used to be that levels 40-50 took you at least a week, if you played non-stop, but generally took a month or more. When you finally hit 50, everyone cheered you, because it was a real achievement. In today's MMOs, you hit 90, 50, 20, or whatever the case may be, there really isn't any celebration. All you get is a "grats" in guild chat maybe...they can't even give you the time for a "congratulations". I remember when I first hit 50 in DAoC, my guild threw a party for me, and a few others that hit 50 that week. In today's MMOs, there is no sense of accomplishment. This is one of the reasons why some players play a MMO for 2 months, then they're done. After 2 months, there is nothing else to do. You have the best gear, you've completed all the quests and dungeons. You've been on ever raid and defeated every challenge.
There's no reason for you to stick around, since you've done everything, and there's no community to talk to. In old MMOs, I used to sit around and chat with people while standing in a bank, or guild house. In today's MMOs, there is no talking. I almost feel sometimes like I accidently turned off chat and almost have to check to make sure I didn't.
I agree the only issue with Eq2 i have atm is that the game is very very old and is way past its prime, combat system could be more dynamic as well in this day and age. After Tera ppl got spoiled :P
(Retired)- Anarchy Online/Ultima Online/DAoC/Horizonsz/EQ2/SWG/AC1&2/L2/SoR/WoW/TMO/Requiem/Atlantica Online/Manibogi/Rift+(SL)/Lol/Hon/SWTOR/Wakfu/Champions Online/GW/Lotr/CO/TcoS/Tabula Rasa/Meridian 59/Vanguard/Shadowbane/Fury/SotW/Dreamlords/HGL/RoM/DDO/FFXI/Aoc/Eve/Warhammer Online/Gw2/TSW/Tera/Defiance/STO/AoW/DE/Firefall/Darkfall/Neverwinter/PS2/ESO/FF14/Archeage/Gw2
Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Mark Twain
Basically, IMHO, I believe the majority of developers are too blinded by greed and killing the genre themselves.
People will not play your game because it is cheaper, you only lose money that way.
That is not how it works.
Not even sure how to respond to this post.. TSW is nothing like Wow not even close no clue where you came up with half these games being like Wow....
I also see you forget to mention "THE PRECIOUS" because if anything that game should also be on your list if TSW is lol.....
The fact that MMOs have been, since their creation, experiences based on long-term, on-going adventure, not short term, "beat it and move on", console-style gameplay... which is what they've largely become.
This is why you have people who are still playing games like Anarchy Online, EQ1, AC1, DAoC, FFXI and so forth all these years later - and still enjoying them. Because they offered that kind of depth and longevity in their experiences. It's why, even with all these other new games on the market now, they still remain playing them.
The problem is MMOs in the last several years have moved away from that; surely the result of big companies getting involved that had no clue about the genre they were getting into. They were just trying to get a piece of Blizzard's pie.
No, it's not "because they've put so much time into playing them and don't want to give up". I know that's a popular canned argument intended to undermine the long-term success and "keeping power" of those older MMOs. It's just a very poor and lazy one. When people are no longer finding enough enjoyment to continue paying for a game, they stop playing. No one spends years sticking with a voluntary activity they get no joy out of.
They stick with those games because they provide, among other things, the kind of elements that Bill touches on in his article. Systems. On-going, self-sustaining activities where the players are part of the content and of the experience. These are the kinds of experiences that true MMO communities build around - you know, the kind that us "old MMO fogeys" love to go on about? They develop because such systems require player interaction. When people interact, they get to know each other, they build online friendships, people become known across servers and, lo and behold, communities grow.
I see people trying to argue that it's perfectly reasonable for MMO-hopping to happen and that games should be created to support that (mostly through the F2P/Cash Shop model). I could not disagree with this more wholeheartedly. The fact that MMO hopping exists is a sign modern MMOs have failed to create or capture the kind of experience playing the 1st and 2nd generation MMOs was. It's a symptom of a bigger problem.
I gotta say, between Smedley's seemingly revelatory statements about the direction they're taking with EQNext (however much you can believe anything Smedley says), articles like Bill's showing up, and the amount of agreement I see in many of the follow-up comments... it seems maybe.. just maybe... developers are starting to slowly get it again. And maybe.. just maybe... we can get back to having MMORPGs that are true long-term experiences again, and not just short-term, throw away "games".
One can dream.
Best thing is these two ideas work well for any type of MMO,and likely appeal to a large segment of the market place.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your analysis is worthy of noble slow clap.
*slow clap*
So the question becomes; how do we close Pandoras box?
Virtual shiney rehab centers?
Kumbaya Online...a new horizon.
"Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"
In that case I think it might be better to get rid of levels altogether.
Let gear have stat and skill requirements instead of level and give out a stat point or skill instead of levels.
Being level 15 of 80 kinda stresses people out today. And it really hurts character customization as well.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that one of the major reasons the old school MMOs had much more longevity was because of the incredible GRINDING that most (all?) of those MMOs had incorporated into leveling, gaining rare equipment, etc. So let's not be too quick to praise these games for their longevity.
Wasn't it we, the MMO community, who complained about the whole grinding issue and beat it into the ground in the first place? That's probably one of the main reasons why MMO developers are making games the way they are now - anything that feels like a "grind" has become taboo, and thus developers feel compelled to give us instant rewards for minimal effort. The result is players, especially the more hardcore MMO players, burn through content quickly and move on. This is, in my opinion, the core reason why this problem even exists. We complained about grinding, and developers came up with an inadequate solution.
Developers need to think of new ways to keep us occupied. Sandbox features and player developed content are a great way to do this, for sure. But there are other solutions as well. A truly dynamic themepark MMO in which the content and make-up of the world is entirely dependent on the interaction between numerous world events, for example, could potentially keep a large number of players in a themepark enviornment engaged for a very long time.
Another issue is that developers are too enamored with the concept of creating a "personal story" for players. In an MMO, the focus needs to be on the community, not the individual. Personal stories make it so that players feel like they are "done" once their personal story is complete, and have no need or desire to help or interact with others (unless it is a friend or guild mate). What we need is a "group story". Maybe on a server-by-server basis... something that tells of the actions and achievements of the community as a whole, in a very specific way - mentioning guilds and characters that were influential, etc. Hopefully then, people will feel as if they're a part of something greater that is continually evolving and isn't necessarily "done" when they reach max level or whatever.
Sadly, in the end, developers are in it for the money, and what they're doing right now is making money. So real solutions won't come until the players demand it with their wallets. Or until some indie game company creates some kick-ass game out of their love for the genre.
EQ2 is the game that closest resembles what Bill was getting at. No other current MMORPG is even in the same ballpark as EQ2 for this stuff. The most robust housing in MMO history? check (yes, its not open world like UO or SWG. but you can do more with it than even UO). Player made dungeons? check (albeit they still need some work, the framework is there).
SoE is embracing player made content and systems. They even tried player created quests in SWG. However, this is all being done on an existing framework, as opposed to building the game with it. EQNext is going to be built along side this sort of thing.
I agree but find it strange that Bill never mentions EQ2 but talks about GW2 which is far away from what he is talking about. EQ2 is the closest example of what bill is talking about.Then you have games like Vanguard which has some very nice features nope it dose not have player made content but it doesn't need to have it. It has a vast amount of content that is right up there with EQ2, it would also take a noob months to level and with diplomacy and crafting it would take a good year.
Seems to me that the OP is talking about features that some MMOs already have if people choose not to play them and go for the souless content lacking games like GW2 then its there problem.
Well, as you said yourself before and yet seem to be forgetting - personal story is what helps out with the feeling of grind.
Need, really? No, it does not need to. At this point you are just projecting your own desires into other gamers.
twist games. E.g. ...with Better wow graphics.
<.<</b>
Not even sure how to respond to this post.. TSW is nothing like Wow not even close no clue where you came up with half these games being like Wow....
I also see you forget to mention "THE PRECIOUS" because if anything that game should also be on your list if TSW is lol.....
And he leaves GW2 out lol.I think Bill is having a laugh; we talk about this all the time. I call them two monthers or the like. Maybe nobody mentions this at press conferences and game shows.
The best revenue model is a sub with a fluff only cash shop. Unfortunately cash shops always end up containing pay to win elements later, even if they start with just fluff. Remember as well, if you only put the pay to win items in shop after a year, those two month casuals will not be there to buy them. I think this is what drove GW2 to include some minor PtW elements at launch.
User generated content is the best way forward, gaming systems will only go so far. But getting good quality user content and fitting it into the existing game is not easy. It did not save NWN before, so I don't think I am going out on a limb when I say it won't save them this time round.
Casual players want their Big Mac and fries, they make up the baulk of the player base, no new MMO is going to be a huge success long term while that remains true.
Though I haven't plaid WoW in years, WoW, though a themepark, works because it gives you some choice to your progression. And I think choice - as well as systems AND content - is what will keep a player coming back.
In a themepark, you want to be able to choose and pick your rides, even if you come back to some of the same ones here and there. If you just get to ride the Big Wheel, you'll get bored quick. Throw in a few choices, and the propensity for early boredom is reduced, equalling higher customer retention.
Take SWTOR for example. It has failed in a sense that it probably wasn't expected to go F2P quite so early into it's lifespan. That's because, at the heart of the game, it brought nothing new to the systems department, and also had little choice. Once you got bored of the cutscenes, you realised that progression for each character was identical, and there was nothing you could do to alter that path.
Also, WoW is not a fluke. I'm quite surprised to see an industry veteran write that, though I doubt you meant it quite in the way I'm taking it. I don't have interior knowledge, but I am quite certain that Blizzard looked at all the other available MMO and single player games on the market, then carefully picked the elements that they saw people enjoyed. All these were then all piled in together with their existing IP. That's not a fluke, that's good business strategy.
So yeah: Content - System - Choice.
If only one could say why people are not into your product... Truth is, you do not know just like anyone else.
You can only guess.
Yep, the technology somehow became more important than gameplay, and so a de-evolution began where the games became less featured because all of the time and money went into making the next big thing in visuals/cutscenes. The more constrained the gameplay, the less time and money for that aspect, which is harder to sell to investors than: watch this demo, see how great this looks! I love great looking games, but they are a waste of time if they don't have great gameplay with potential for longevity too.
Bait and switch games are 2 month prospects. The end user should push back on this practice.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Very good article. "Systems" are why I'm still playing Ultima Online 15 years later. Sure, I play other MMO's, but they always tend to get dull, whereas even after 15 years, with my rate of play, I still haven't seen and done everything in UO. Why? Because the basic systems, the crafting, the vendors, the player housing, the ability for players to create environments and situations to RP in, have kept me FAR more occupied than checking out a dungeon, or going after uber loot items.
Couldn't agree with this article more.
He does not have to guess, it is all over the net. Pretty obvious the problems SWTOR had, too much expensive voice overs and cut scenes, that end up being skipped after playing the game awhile. The systems in the game were very poorly done hence the game has very little replayability and very little retainability. It won't do well as a f2p either.
Well I do not really agree with Bill.
I think the problem lies with the AI.
All MMO has the most dated AI compared to SRPG.
The day the companies update the AI, the whole gameplay will change.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
While I agree with the sentiments regarding hybrid models I dont think it really contributes that greatly to the "Two months done, whats next" problem.
Developers seem to think Everyone wants a themepark game & there are many players who will tell you they love themeparks & defend the concept of themepark MMO's to the death. Problem is the majority of players who defend such a concept are also the players who play for 2-3 months then move on.
I have been saying for a while now that its impossible for themepark MMO devs to stay infront of player progression and provide quality new content faster than players can consume it, it just cannot be done. So Instead you need to have alternative activities for players to do (not just at endgame) that do not require you to generate lots of content rapidly. If you like, as a developer you can have your themepark but you need to let players get out of the themepark at their leisure.
The Hybrid Themepark with sandbox elements such as Wildstar is proposing is where new MMO's should be heading IMHO, letting players drive their own experience more instead of buying a ticket and hopping on for the ride which once completed is not all that interesting to repeat. New MMO's would do well to include things like.
- Randomised dungeons/mission areas. Randomised like Diablo/Torchlight. Get players into them through whatever concept you like (portals, magical maze that is ever shifting, dungeon hack style thing etc) but truly randomising it and giving players a reason to explore them will go a long way.
- Hold your themepark attractions inside a sandbox world. By that I mean make the world more of a sandbox, people will find the sandbox elements scattered throughout it (following fixed roads from quest hub to quest hub if you like) that are easily found, but for those who want to get off the themepark they can by going off exploring, finding non quest hub content.
- Incorporate world & zone events into your game from day 1. By this I mean make it easy for your live team to run impromtu events and plan these out and get players involved. Sure you can have static events like public quests & programmed world events but GM run events are often one of a kind.
- Let your players build upon the world. Allowing things like player run/controlled villages, player housing etc gives players a lot more to do and makes them feel a lot more part of the world instead of just strapped into a ride until it ends. Exploring the countryside and finding a small guild village with few player built buildings and a partially completed wall is a lot more exciting than just finding some new NPC content that has been added.
- Let your players do the heavy lifting. allowing players to generate quests & missions of their own (if handled well, ie: content vetted) is always well recieved. RPG communities are generally crammed with talented people who love to build stuff for friends and other players, just have a look at the Neverwinter Nights community. Naturally there is a need to vet content to make sure players arent making easy mission for fast leveling or making offensive content but there are easy ways of handling this.
- Its an MMO not a single player experience ! find better ways to encourage group play and build your community. Im not saying rip out all solo play as that is a big part of themeparks now but what I am saying is definitely put in content that can only be tackled by players working together, or perhaps even against each other.
While there is no quick fix we can only hope that new MMO's that are being planned now (for release in the next 2-3 years) can see the current themepark model is unsustanable and adapt accordingly.
hi
yes ramdomised quest and dungeon is the best way to keep players for years in the game. But MMO need to be a long game not a game like swtor ! Swtor u reach the maximum lv in two weeks ! Stop it. I want to made quest, dungeon alone or with friends for month and years. And when i reach the max lv after 2 years i m happy.
currently mmo are disposable game, u play to 2 week and it s over u are lv 80. it s a shame. So now u are lv 80, u can do PVP or farm dungeon to have the tier 1 armor. After u can farm to have the tier 2... tier3 .... Where is the fun ?????? We want fun !
And stop dungeon for a team with a tank, healer and 3 dps. i want to play with my 2 friends and do some dungeon with them or alone. Without tank, without healer. Just 3 dps that want to have some fun.
Stop dungeon with boss that need 30 mn of fight, with one need to do this, an other need to touch the pillar .... It fun the first tim after it s very boring.
Ramdom boss in ramdom dungeon with random quest inside it s the best way to keep players.
And let players play alone if they want to do it. Stop quest that need 3 or 5 peoples to do it.
Let player play like they want.
Thx
best regards
You see, there are sandboxes that actually fulfill your points. Have you seen milions of eager players on them? Certainly not. I don't think systems alone cut it anymore. Many people want to be told what to do and almost all needs some reason to do what they do. Or I believe so.
For me the best way to go is theme park that sort of simulates Sandbox. You get a direction, but you are not able to do anything you want. Let's say you have a continent to settle. NPCs will do "planning" while players will do labor. Of course you can let players influence planning as well, but it's important NPCs fill those places. I've just seen too many forgotten and abandoned viliges in sandboxes. So you can go and build your city and systems for that would be sort of sandboxish, but still NPCs will give you direction and purpose to do so.
This being said, it should be fairly easy to implement as you set systems in place and adding content is not such a huge problem (you can always go and settle another continent). Along this base system, you can add other content like dungeons and other events.