Following post in extremly biased and egoistical. Beware. :
For me sandbox with any cash shop or currency selling (Krono) or other similar schemes like rmah might as well does not exist. Even if there would be Ultima Online 2 or SWG2 made and they would be polished and without design flaws I would not play them with microtransactions.
I hate bots and gold sellers and cash shops, rmah's and currency selling is same as making botting official.
Just there is no sense and feeling of world anymore with that kind of things. I won't touch EQNext with a 3 meter stick it can fail as far as I am concerned.
Future with all worthwhile sandbox mmorpg's being avabile only with freemium, f2p or other microtransaction involved models is not better for me than future without sandbox mmorpg's at all.
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Aion - in that number is the asia market included. THEY dont have subscibtions like we are used to it. You go into a bar, play the fucking game for 2 hours and you then are a subscriber. You cant count that.
And in NA/EU Aion is below 500k
Those numbers are never true for DDO, it might be true for Lotro though. Some links please.
SWTOR is how old? do you think it will have that amount over 5 or 10 years? will it even exist as long? I doubt it.
GW2 dont have any subscribtions. Or... Minecraft was sold around 8 million times. So what?
If we take the MMO as a whole, themepark MMO has more subs / generate more money.
Which is why you see a lot more themepark MMOs then sandbox MMOs.
The actual $$$ is higher in themeparks than sandbox; this is not a hard concept and pretty simple to see for the past 7 years.
What SWTOR number will be in 5 - 10 years is irrevelant as those are the number we have right now. If you want to spin that to 'but it'll die in 5 years!' go at it. I like to deal with facts.
You are right. There are a lot more of AAA themeparks in comparsion to AAA sandboxes.
The truth is only Raph Koster made AAA Sandboxes(UO and SWG). All others sandboxes are indy attempts, and only EvE was successful and overtime become AAA. Thats it, not more AAA sandboxes available. But you have to ask why?
Truth is, it is a lot easier to hand over a themepark mmo than a unique sandbox. It is a lot simplier to copy successful games than do something new. So developers/publisher dont have the guts, or the creativity to try a sandbox. Especially, because there is no finished, working sandbox design in comparsion to themeparks. Both UO and SWGs were experiments to try something different to do a sandbox and deliver enjoyable gameplay. And both of them had shortcomings, as any other sandbox game ever produced.
SWG was more or less a experiment to mix up sandbox gameplay with more straighforward themepark design, and to avoid a view problems, tough design decisions, which were not that well in UO. Like the PK problem. And the SWG solution was not really the best way to do, it was a more or less safe way to do it.
And now look at 90% + of all released themeparks, they are more or less all 100% copy cats of games that came out before. All outcomes from lazy developers, which want to have a cushy number. You cant develop a sandbox mmo that way, at least not up to now, there is no fail prove way to make a sandbox.
And about all indy attempts to sandbox design. You cant give the players a empty world and expect a huge success, or even a success at all. Another truth is, that all sandbox tools(changeable world) are just a foundation for a virtual world, you then have to build up on that a world, a story(dynamic) and content suited to work with the sandbox tools. And as i said, only Raph Koster really tried that one.
And with that said, i dont expect that the next sandbox will be the next great thing ever, it is and will be a longer process to develop/design a great sandbox game. A lot of trial and error attempts will be required do get it right. And it really is a hard question, if any huge publisher is willingly to invest in that, and i have huge doubts if any indy team is capable of that in the scope of a modern mmo.
With other words.. i personally expect EQNext will be a half-assed try to mix some sandbox elements with the old and known themepark mechanics. It may be even to some degree interesting enough for some time. But i dont expect anything great from it. But, i am open to conviction, if they present their feature list, and first presentations what EQNext really will be like.. such a bland and shabby "it will be the world largest sandbox-style MMO ever made" dont cut it for me. Give me something solid, and not some warm words.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Not at all, as it won't be a sandbox, making it a sandbox would be commercial suicide, EQ core fan base is all about hardcore tiered pve progression.
What's his face stated pretty clearly that the game will be a sandbox. However the game turns out will reflect on sandbox games in general, since SOE is a major games developer. If they market it as a sandbox, but it's not a sandbox, this will be seen as an admission that sandboxes can't be built by major developers.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Yamota Assuming it will be a sandbox. I am not entirely sure of that.
this. SoE calls EQ1 a sandbox. so I would watch out for their meaning of Sandbox.
Do you have a link for that statement? It is just too outrageous to be true.
I came to this thread thinking in the back of my mind, well...comparing EQ1 to today's games that have come out since WoW...it basically is a sandbox. I don't think EQN will be a total sandbox, but be EQ1 with some sandbox elements. Good enough for me I'm hoping.
Hope all you want. But if it plays like a Themepark, you will not call it a Sandbox to any degree. You will simply say it had a few Sandbox elements, while admiting it is indeed a Themepark game. Much like, very much like, all the others.
I don't care what it's called. Themepark, Sandbox, Sandpark, Themebox, who the fuck cares? I want my virutal world back so if that has to have more themepark elements than sandbox, I don't care. FFS, people get so caught up in trying to catagorize these games no one seems to care to find out if they're even any fun to begin with. If it is a reskin of EQ1 I would be pretty happy, if they incorporate a few updated mechanics, I'll be even happier. Bottom line is, it better have some interdependancy in it no matter what anyone can catagorize it.
So what you are saying is that you want a Themepark game very much like EQ was. And if it's even better due to some Sandbox elements then better yet.
You can say "who cares what it's called", but that doesn't change what things mean when other people describe them. Of course, all this is made much more difficult to talk about because there is such a wide range of meanings for these terms, which is likely why you don't care what the terms are. And I agree that the terms don't mean much because of this. I blame Themepark people for this too, heh. Damn them and their debates in the name of saving Themepark (which you evidently would side with).
But here's a huge issue. Ya see, EQ was a pretty good Themepark game. Mainly because it tried to hold onto that "world" feeling that an MMORPG really needs (because players are expecting "a world" to play in, especially after that initial new-gamey module design wears off). That seems to be what you want too, at least partially. But that created problems for most gamers. Waiting for your turn in line to get into the game's content wasn't good. WoW fixed that by using instances. Which in turn made the game less "worldly" (i.e. less Sandboxy), and even more based on pure Themepark design. And all those new MMO gamers WoW brought to the table didn't know that these worlds could be more "worldly", more "Sandboxy". So they were thrilled because WoW was also so polished that it was hard to miss the "world" aspects it lacked. At least, for the first few run-throughs.
This is going to get complicated and long-ish. Maybe it's time I start a blog here. It might be better to explain what I see as the problems and solutions. I just don't know if I'm up to the task, time and effort wise.
if there was a more hated person in MMO's im not sure i know who that might be... mentioning his name on the forum of any SOE game will get you a lot of responses, i doubt they'd be positive, but most likely educational
Originally posted by ShakyMo Not at all, as it won't be a sandbox, making it a sandbox would be commercial suicide, EQ core fan base is all about hardcore tiered pve progression.
What's his face stated pretty clearly that the game will be a sandbox. However the game turns out will reflect on sandbox games in general, since SOE is a major games developer. If they market it as a sandbox, but it's not a sandbox, this will be seen as an admission that sandboxes can't be built by major developers.
I think the only admission will be that Smed doesn't know what he's doing. If that's the case, which I believe it is but am willing to give him the chance to talk about it and show us we're wrong about him after what we've seen from him in the past. Which I strongly doubt he will do because a goose is a goose and they lay goose eggs.
Originally posted by Yamota Assuming it will be a sandbox. I am not entirely sure of that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Why do we not want MMO’s to be just like films and other modern media? Well we have single player games that do just that. So why have a one size suits all rule?
Some of us will watch a 5 series, 21 episode TV programme. Many find it hard to maintain their interest and commitment that long. There is room for more than one kind of game.
But I take the comment on the idea players do want monthly entertainment seemingly on the cheap. You have to remember if basic Sky (Pick your TV vender) cost less than the subscription of two MMO’s then players are going to wonder at why so little content comes out in a MMO month. There are good reasons of those differences but all the punters see is a lot less new content per pound.
“I think people expecting SWG in Norrath are going to be disappointed.”
Comments
well hopefully smed will get fired
Following post in extremly biased and egoistical. Beware. :
For me sandbox with any cash shop or currency selling (Krono) or other similar schemes like rmah might as well does not exist. Even if there would be Ultima Online 2 or SWG2 made and they would be polished and without design flaws I would not play them with microtransactions.
I hate bots and gold sellers and cash shops, rmah's and currency selling is same as making botting official.
Just there is no sense and feeling of world anymore with that kind of things. I won't touch EQNext with a 3 meter stick it can fail as far as I am concerned.
Future with all worthwhile sandbox mmorpg's being avabile only with freemium, f2p or other microtransaction involved models is not better for me than future without sandbox mmorpg's at all.
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Why?
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
You are right. There are a lot more of AAA themeparks in comparsion to AAA sandboxes.
The truth is only Raph Koster made AAA Sandboxes(UO and SWG). All others sandboxes are indy attempts, and only EvE was successful and overtime become AAA. Thats it, not more AAA sandboxes available. But you have to ask why?
Truth is, it is a lot easier to hand over a themepark mmo than a unique sandbox. It is a lot simplier to copy successful games than do something new. So developers/publisher dont have the guts, or the creativity to try a sandbox. Especially, because there is no finished, working sandbox design in comparsion to themeparks. Both UO and SWGs were experiments to try something different to do a sandbox and deliver enjoyable gameplay. And both of them had shortcomings, as any other sandbox game ever produced.
SWG was more or less a experiment to mix up sandbox gameplay with more straighforward themepark design, and to avoid a view problems, tough design decisions, which were not that well in UO. Like the PK problem. And the SWG solution was not really the best way to do, it was a more or less safe way to do it.
And now look at 90% + of all released themeparks, they are more or less all 100% copy cats of games that came out before. All outcomes from lazy developers, which want to have a cushy number. You cant develop a sandbox mmo that way, at least not up to now, there is no fail prove way to make a sandbox.
And about all indy attempts to sandbox design. You cant give the players a empty world and expect a huge success, or even a success at all. Another truth is, that all sandbox tools(changeable world) are just a foundation for a virtual world, you then have to build up on that a world, a story(dynamic) and content suited to work with the sandbox tools. And as i said, only Raph Koster really tried that one.
And with that said, i dont expect that the next sandbox will be the next great thing ever, it is and will be a longer process to develop/design a great sandbox game. A lot of trial and error attempts will be required do get it right. And it really is a hard question, if any huge publisher is willingly to invest in that, and i have huge doubts if any indy team is capable of that in the scope of a modern mmo.
With other words.. i personally expect EQNext will be a half-assed try to mix some sandbox elements with the old and known themepark mechanics. It may be even to some degree interesting enough for some time. But i dont expect anything great from it. But, i am open to conviction, if they present their feature list, and first presentations what EQNext really will be like.. such a bland and shabby "it will be the world largest sandbox-style MMO ever made" dont cut it for me. Give me something solid, and not some warm words.
What's his face stated pretty clearly that the game will be a sandbox. However the game turns out will reflect on sandbox games in general, since SOE is a major games developer. If they market it as a sandbox, but it's not a sandbox, this will be seen as an admission that sandboxes can't be built by major developers.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So what you are saying is that you want a Themepark game very much like EQ was. And if it's even better due to some Sandbox elements then better yet.
You can say "who cares what it's called", but that doesn't change what things mean when other people describe them. Of course, all this is made much more difficult to talk about because there is such a wide range of meanings for these terms, which is likely why you don't care what the terms are. And I agree that the terms don't mean much because of this. I blame Themepark people for this too, heh. Damn them and their debates in the name of saving Themepark (which you evidently would side with).
But here's a huge issue. Ya see, EQ was a pretty good Themepark game. Mainly because it tried to hold onto that "world" feeling that an MMORPG really needs (because players are expecting "a world" to play in, especially after that initial new-gamey module design wears off). That seems to be what you want too, at least partially. But that created problems for most gamers. Waiting for your turn in line to get into the game's content wasn't good. WoW fixed that by using instances. Which in turn made the game less "worldly" (i.e. less Sandboxy), and even more based on pure Themepark design. And all those new MMO gamers WoW brought to the table didn't know that these worlds could be more "worldly", more "Sandboxy". So they were thrilled because WoW was also so polished that it was hard to miss the "world" aspects it lacked. At least, for the first few run-throughs.
This is going to get complicated and long-ish. Maybe it's time I start a blog here. It might be better to explain what I see as the problems and solutions. I just don't know if I'm up to the task, time and effort wise.
Once upon a time....
if there was a more hated person in MMO's im not sure i know who that might be... mentioning his name on the forum of any SOE game will get you a lot of responses, i doubt they'd be positive, but most likely educational
I think the only admission will be that Smed doesn't know what he's doing. If that's the case, which I believe it is but am willing to give him the chance to talk about it and show us we're wrong about him after what we've seen from him in the past. Which I strongly doubt he will do because a goose is a goose and they lay goose eggs.
Once upon a time....
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Why do we not want MMO’s to be just like films and other modern media? Well we have single player games that do just that. So why have a one size suits all rule?
Some of us will watch a 5 series, 21 episode TV programme. Many find it hard to maintain their interest and commitment that long. There is room for more than one kind of game.
But I take the comment on the idea players do want monthly entertainment seemingly on the cheap. You have to remember if basic Sky (Pick your TV vender) cost less than the subscription of two MMO’s then players are going to wonder at why so little content comes out in a MMO month. There are good reasons of those differences but all the punters see is a lot less new content per pound.
“I think people expecting SWG in Norrath are going to be disappointed.”
- So do I.