Also NO, it is not hard for developers to do both, LMAO it is not like they go to work and say, "Well guys, we got to come to a conclusion. Gameplay or graphics"
LMAOWTFLAWLBBQOMFG!!11
Actually, it kind is like that.
They say "Do we want to use normal-mapping, specular highlights and dynamic lighting? Or do we want to focus on player housing and interesting, balanced, fun and highly scalable pvp? Or should we work on integrating dynamic content to the storyline? "
They say "Should we continue to optimize the engine, so that we can run higher polycounts and have more character battle animations and emotes? Should we spend more time with the character customization features? Or should we make the cities player controlled, and establish political positions for key players, or improve the creatue A.I.?"
Just examples, but developers make decisions like these every single day of the development cycle. If 75% of the original design document makes it into the release of the game, it's a miracle.
So yea, they do have to make the decision, whether to focus their time on the visual aspects of the game, or on the gameplay mechanics. Most Devs try to strike a balance. The reason for this thread is that oftentimes, they fail.
Edit: One more thing, to drive the point home. If it's so damn easy for them to do both, why then so often do we have games where the graphics are nice, but the gameplay is lacking? Lineage 2, EQ2, WoW, SWG ...to name a few.
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Originally posted by ianubisi Here's the formula I always use: Good Graphics + Good Gameplay = Great Game Bad Graphics + Good Gameplay = Good Game Good Graphics + Bad Gameplay = Pretty Game Bad Graphics + Bad Gameplay = Bad Game You can decide where you want to focus your time, but I don't tend to play games unless they have good gameplay.
Thats a good philosphy... i'll use that.
Anyways, graphics ARE very important to me. For example, i just cant get into text based games or browser games... i need graphics... but if the gameplay sucks, then I wont play. I think good graphics submerse the player into the game, so its important.
To me a RPG is: 40% -- Storyline 40% -- Gameplay 20% -- Graphics
Non-RPG's are: 65% -- Gameplay 35% -- Graphics
Go with what makes the game fun and graphics isn't largely important to the equation of a good game in my opinion. Gamers that have played Nes|Snes|Sega shouldn't be fretting on graphics so much.
Originally posted by gargantroo That is one of the most obvious answers ever. If your referring to EQ2 being graphics, and WoW being gameplay, WoW is loved for gameplay, EQ2 is loved for both. EQ2 isnt loved for its graphics, they are just a nice addition.
EQ 2 isn't loved for both
EQ2 is barely loved
If someone DOES love it then it's obviosly because of the graphics and they can't admit that WoW is better and EQ 2 is crappy. Anyway I think gameplay makes the game.
unfortunately most of the produced games nowadays are more eye candy than game content i love great graphics but graphics alone is nothing worth, even after a while u dont recognize the beautifull graphic anymore and get used to it. so gameplay and content is priority one and awesome grphic is the seond. if you watch all those mmorpgs more than 50% of those games are concentrated on graphics only some have really good gameplay or content.
unfortunately the younger generation is so much used to good graphics that developers spend more time in developing graphic games instead new game ideas. i.e. ww2online has only decent graphics but is a great mmopg with top game content, but most of the people dont like it cause of the graphics...thats just dumb in my eyes. this game is one of the niche products which looks for game content and possibilities more than graphics.
when i see games where u have brilliant graphics but the only content is to lvl up killing ai mobs and nothing more you will hear only a *yaaaawn* from me
Well, ideally, I'd say both together make a great game. Honestly though, you can't have a game that's just graphics, because without fun gameplay, there's really no point in playing the game (as many PS2 games have proven themselves to me). However, if the gameplay is only mediocre and the graphics suck, the game isn't worth playing either. Of the two, gameplay is really more important, but for me, without some decent graphics to back it up, it loses a lot of fun.
Originally posted by MisfitZ Heartbeat vs Breathing. Which would you choose?
Althought I need both, I can hold my breath and just sporadically get some air. Whales and dolphins hold breath for a very long time...so that would like having nice graphics while you zone or check your inventory...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think the answer isn't 'both', but its not either one. I won't really play a game if its got great gameplay and is ugly. But at the same time I won't play a good looking game that doesn't have any compelling gameplay. Ideally it would be both... but I'd settle for decent graphics and decent gameplay, or 'ok' graphics, and great gameplay.
Roma Victor for example supposedly will have great gameplay, but it is so ugly I doubt I will play it.
Maybe some time there will be a point where the hardware coming out for computers will come to a stand still because everything will be small and fast as hell. What i mean by that is that i think maybe the graphics craze is just a faze sooner or later it will become more effecient to where developers can spend more time on the gameplay then if a certain computer can run it and how. One thing is gameplay will never go away it has to be there. Which makes me realise maybe this argument is kind of moot? Or not because the consumer makes the producer still stand on its feet.
In the end everything tends to work itself out, and both graphics and gameplay will be realised some day.
this kind of makes me realise sooner or later computers will just be one set standard because there will be nothing else to add to it...Examples as of rightnow are console systems and macs :P but they are not the greatest example. Consoles are awesome though at least game developers can concentrate more on the game itself then whether it will run on this or that computer, they just all have the same limitations.
I'd actually prefer graphics go more stylish then photorealism, and I think that in a few generations of hardware, maybe even the next, we can achieve something like that. Like Warcraft proved you can look consistant and not cripple a computer. (like even on their lowest setting the things look consistant and fluid, everquest 2 is a bunch of smears, things popping into view, changing appearance, etc as it renders differently.)
Well, once photorealism can be achieved i think then we can expect stylized games more often because not everyone always wants realistic looking games all the time. Well some anyway. Stylised realism would be cool. It can look real IE lighting and shading and movements and such but who says cant be artistic?
Graphics is to first capture the gamers attention, wow him for the first few hours.... No one wanna see his character as have retarded looking char running around
Gameplay is to keep him in the game for the rest of his gaming time.
Unlike gameplay, graphics advance way too fast, game play on the other hand is based on the idea,
For me gameplay > graphics especially in mmo game.
While graphics I do believe are important to any MMORPG that wants to do well in todays market, Gameplay is definitely more important. I mean, you can have one visually stunning game like Everquest 2, but if it has no gameplay to match its wonderful graphics, then it really isn't a great game. Gameplay, not graphics, is what makes the MMORPG. What fun is a visuall stunning game in which you do a lot of crappy things, or the gameplay is just downright horrible? However, I won't downplay graphics though, I do think, now more than ever, that graphics are an integral part of MMORPGs. I used to think differently, but now I've put some sense into my brain over the last few months. But, if you have a game like WoW, where the graphics are not the best, but they certainly are fine, then you can manage well.
If everything was about gameplay then most people would still be playing on a MUD and not any of the games that are out there.
It is not that people choose the best looking game. You are certainly not going to pay to just look at pretty things while the rest of the game sucks. Moreover most are not going to play a game that was great game play but has horrible graphics or none at all.
People want value for their money. Given the choice between paying for a game that has horrible 2D graphics (with great game play which I am not going to argue for or against here) or one that is 3D and beautfiul then why would I or most other mmorpg players choose the 2D?
If it were free then that is a reason. If it offered something totally mind blowing then maybe. Given the competive market it simply does not make sense for most mmorpg players to choose to play an ugly game when there are better looking ones that offer the same or better level of game play.
It is not game play versus graphics. Nor is it really "both." It is that you go for the game play that you like within a large variety of attractive and competive games -SWG, SoR, EVE, EQ, EQ2, WoW, DAOC, CoH, MxO, FFXI, etc.
I enjoy playing Pong now and then, but I am certainly not going to pay almost the same about to play Pong as I will whatever the latest game to come out is.
I played UO for almost 6 years (with 2 several month breaks) The graphics are so acceptable I could still play it, the gameplay is what would get me back because no game has yet matched the freedom of options found in UO.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
gameplay... that's what a game really needs. I have a high end computer and graphics card and I still think Arkanoid on my old QL was the best game ever made because of gameplay and keyboardsetup, was set up like this : ...left right spacebar up down... can't play those clones like bricks on computers nowadays cause the keyboard is messed up with all arrows for one hand.
Anyhow I love this graphics discussion, I basicly dislike 3d graphics, even isometric 2D annoys the crap out of me. Thus I look for 2D that is nice and flat like my computerscreen. In the end 3D in games is just some bizarre flat with a lot of shading and things that makes me go dizzy.
So sure, graphics has it's importance, you need to be able to visualize things nicely but I don't like the direction graphics took. The determining factor that makes or breaks a game will always be the concept of gameplay within it. Grinds will get boring, there has to be something else to do in the game besides those pretty graphics.
This poll is plain irelevant and you seem to only have a need for a post count and attention. And when people do give their opinion you tell them to shove it because you dont like their answer?? Cmon Moron..
Everyone knows that Gameplay>Graphics. Without gameplay/content graphics dont mean shit (Lineage 2 example)
There is no game out currently (Not even EQ2) that has both aspects with a few only coming close.
Only one I can see that MIGHT have both is the up coming Dark and Light MMO.
People who prefer Graphics over Gameplay will find themselves jumping from game to game because of lack of content/gameplay looking for that "Perfect Game"and I know I'm right.
Those that deny it are only hiding their true nature.
Let me ask this question: How many games are sitting on your shelves that you played a month or less?
haha i know its not to me but i will use my self as a exp:
i have
1.WOW
2.DAOC
3.L2
4.SWG
5. FF online
6.The Saga Of Ryzom
7.Shadowbane
that is 7 haha wow that is alot. most of them becouse i looked at graphics and not game play haha wow that is alot and i am getting more but this time more game play then graphics haha what a dork i am
Originally posted by MisfitZ If it's so damn easy for them to do both, why then so often do we have games where the graphics are nice, but the gameplay is lacking? Lineage 2, EQ2, WoW, SWG ...to name a few.
The answer is simple - it is NOT easy to do both. While the issue is NOT at all black and white (from the development point of view), in general producing "pretty" graphics in a game is easy while producing high quality "gameplay" is NOT. Pretty graphics requires good artists (plenty of them around) - so that is relatively easy. However, engaging gameplay requires technologies (AI for example) that either do not exist or are extremely difficult to program. Quality gameplay elements (intricate story design for example) requires very high quality and original writers (not easy to come by as artists) AND overcoming inherent problems in an MMORPG (such as players eating up content by playing many hours a day) that may not even be solveable.
Gameplay is much more important, due to the fact I can play a game longer without good graphics and good gameplay than can vice-versa. To be truthful Runescape will have to be one of the best mmorpgs I have ever played. Graphics weren't all that spectacular but hey the gameplay was in there. Cooking, crafting, and questing and tons more that game is the ish.
Gameplay is the more important of the two, but heck having both wouldn't hut either
________________________________ I must not fear, fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that leads to obliteration, I must permit fear to pass over me and through me. ________________________________
While sweet graphics are very nice, gameplay is far more important.
The gameplay is the core of any game (the meat if you will), the graphics, while being important, are like gravy.
Frankly, i've been keeping my eyes peeled for a sweet game that will have me hooked for a long time, with a good balance of questing, crafting, fighting and some tactical and strategy aspect.
Comments
Toughest rater in the world
Try to impress me, please, i dare u
LMAOWTFLAWLBBQOMFG!!11
Actually, it kind is like that.
They say "Do we want to use normal-mapping, specular highlights and dynamic lighting? Or do we want to focus on player housing and interesting, balanced, fun and highly scalable pvp? Or should we work on integrating dynamic content to the storyline? "
They say "Should we continue to optimize the engine, so that we can run higher polycounts and have more character battle animations and emotes? Should we spend more time with the character customization features? Or should we make the cities player controlled, and establish political positions for key players, or improve the creatue A.I.?"
Just examples, but developers make decisions like these every single day of the development cycle. If 75% of the original design document makes it into the release of the game, it's a miracle.
So yea, they do have to make the decision, whether to focus their time on the visual aspects of the game, or on the gameplay mechanics. Most Devs try to strike a balance. The reason for this thread is that oftentimes, they fail.
Edit: One more thing, to drive the point home. If it's so damn easy for them to do both, why then so often do we have games where the graphics are nice, but the gameplay is lacking? Lineage 2, EQ2, WoW, SWG ...to name a few.
-----------------------------
Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Thats a good philosphy... i'll use that.
Anyways, graphics ARE very important to me. For example, i just cant get into text based games or browser games... i need graphics... but if the gameplay sucks, then I wont play. I think good graphics submerse the player into the game, so its important.
To me a RPG is:
40% -- Storyline
40% -- Gameplay
20% -- Graphics
Non-RPG's are:
65% -- Gameplay
35% -- Graphics
Go with what makes the game fun and graphics isn't largely important to the equation of a good game in my opinion. Gamers that have played Nes|Snes|Sega shouldn't be fretting on graphics so much.
____________________________________________________________________
EQ 2 isn't loved for both
EQ2 is barely loved
If someone DOES love it then it's obviosly because of the graphics and they can't admit that WoW is better and EQ 2 is crappy. Anyway I think gameplay makes the game.
i prefer both of course !!
unfortunately most of the produced games nowadays are more eye candy than game content
i love great graphics but graphics alone is nothing worth, even after a while u dont recognize the beautifull graphic anymore and get used to it. so gameplay and content is priority one and awesome grphic is the seond. if you watch all those mmorpgs more than 50% of those games are concentrated on graphics only some have really good gameplay or content.
unfortunately the younger generation is so much used to good graphics that developers spend more time in developing graphic games instead new game ideas.
i.e. ww2online has only decent graphics but is a great mmopg with top game content, but most of the people dont like it cause of the graphics...thats just dumb in my eyes. this game is one of the niche products which looks for game content and possibilities more than graphics.
when i see games where u have brilliant graphics but the only content is to lvl up killing ai mobs and nothing more you will hear only a *yaaaawn* from me
ive played Lineage 2 and WoW and they both have outstanding graphics......BUT NO GAMEPLAY
go to www.freewebs.com/thebluelake
Well, ideally, I'd say both together make a great game. Honestly though, you can't have a game that's just graphics, because without fun gameplay, there's really no point in playing the game (as many PS2 games have proven themselves to me). However, if the gameplay is only mediocre and the graphics suck, the game isn't worth playing either. Of the two, gameplay is really more important, but for me, without some decent graphics to back it up, it loses a lot of fun.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Barely loved by over 350K+ subscribers. Sounds like good loving to me.
I think the answer isn't 'both', but its not either one. I won't really play a game if its got great gameplay and is ugly. But at the same time I won't play a good looking game that doesn't have any compelling gameplay. Ideally it would be both... but I'd settle for decent graphics and decent gameplay, or 'ok' graphics, and great gameplay.
Roma Victor for example supposedly will have great gameplay, but it is so ugly I doubt I will play it.
Maybe some time there will be a point where the hardware coming out for computers will come to a stand still because everything will be small and fast as hell. What i mean by that is that i think maybe the graphics craze is just a faze sooner or later it will become more effecient to where developers can spend more time on the gameplay then if a certain computer can run it and how. One thing is gameplay will never go away it has to be there. Which makes me realise maybe this argument is kind of moot? Or not because the consumer makes the producer still stand on its feet.
In the end everything tends to work itself out, and both graphics and gameplay will be realised some day.
this kind of makes me realise sooner or later computers will just be one set standard because there will be nothing else to add to it...Examples as of rightnow are console systems and macs :P but they are not the greatest example. Consoles are awesome though at least game developers can concentrate more on the game itself then whether it will run on this or that computer, they just all have the same limitations.
I'd actually prefer graphics go more stylish then photorealism, and I think that in a few generations of hardware, maybe even the next, we can achieve something like that. Like Warcraft proved you can look consistant and not cripple a computer. (like even on their lowest setting the things look consistant and fluid, everquest 2 is a bunch of smears, things popping into view, changing appearance, etc as it renders differently.)
arent graphics a must in all games nowadays?
Both are equally important
Graphics is to first capture the gamers attention, wow him for the first few hours....
No one wanna see his character as have retarded looking char running around
Gameplay is to keep him in the game for the rest of his gaming time.
Unlike gameplay, graphics advance way too fast, game play on the other hand is based on the idea,
For me gameplay > graphics especially in mmo game.
While graphics I do believe are important to any MMORPG that wants to do well in todays market, Gameplay is definitely more important. I mean, you can have one visually stunning game like Everquest 2, but if it has no gameplay to match its wonderful graphics, then it really isn't a great game. Gameplay, not graphics, is what makes the MMORPG. What fun is a visuall stunning game in which you do a lot of crappy things, or the gameplay is just downright horrible? However, I won't downplay graphics though, I do think, now more than ever, that graphics are an integral part of MMORPGs. I used to think differently, but now I've put some sense into my brain over the last few months. But, if you have a game like WoW, where the graphics are not the best, but they certainly are fine, then you can manage well.
If everything was about gameplay then most people would still be playing on a MUD and not any of the games that are out there.
It is not that people choose the best looking game. You are certainly not going to pay to just look at pretty things while the rest of the game sucks. Moreover most are not going to play a game that was great game play but has horrible graphics or none at all.
People want value for their money. Given the choice between paying for a game that has horrible 2D graphics (with great game play which I am not going to argue for or against here) or one that is 3D and beautfiul then why would I or most other mmorpg players choose the 2D?
If it were free then that is a reason. If it offered something totally mind blowing then maybe. Given the competive market it simply does not make sense for most mmorpg players to choose to play an ugly game when there are better looking ones that offer the same or better level of game play.
It is not game play versus graphics. Nor is it really "both." It is that you go for the game play that you like within a large variety of attractive and competive games -SWG, SoR, EVE, EQ, EQ2, WoW, DAOC, CoH, MxO, FFXI, etc.
I enjoy playing Pong now and then, but I am certainly not going to pay almost the same about to play Pong as I will whatever the latest game to come out is.
I think most of us agree its a balance issue.
I played UO for almost 6 years (with 2 several month breaks) The graphics are so acceptable I could still play it, the gameplay is what would get me back because no game has yet matched the freedom of options found in UO.
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
gameplay... that's what a game really needs. I have a high end computer and graphics card and I still think Arkanoid on my old QL was the best game ever made because of gameplay and keyboardsetup, was set up like this : ...left right spacebar up down... can't play those clones like bricks on computers nowadays cause the keyboard is messed up with all arrows for one hand.
Anyhow I love this graphics discussion, I basicly dislike 3d graphics, even isometric 2D annoys the crap out of me. Thus I look for 2D that is nice and flat like my computerscreen. In the end 3D in games is just some bizarre flat with a lot of shading and things that makes me go dizzy.
So sure, graphics has it's importance, you need to be able to visualize things nicely but I don't like the direction graphics took. The determining factor that makes or breaks a game will always be the concept of gameplay within it. Grinds will get boring, there has to be something else to do in the game besides those pretty graphics.
-
To the original poster...
This poll is plain irelevant and you seem to only have a need for a post count and attention. And when people do give their opinion you tell them to shove it because you dont like their answer?? Cmon Moron..
Everyone knows that Gameplay>Graphics. Without gameplay/content graphics dont mean shit (Lineage 2 example)
There is no game out currently (Not even EQ2) that has both aspects with a few only coming close.
Only one I can see that MIGHT have both is the up coming Dark and Light MMO.
People who prefer Graphics over Gameplay will find themselves jumping from game to game because of lack of content/gameplay looking for that "Perfect Game"and I know I'm right.
Those that deny it are only hiding their true nature.
Let me ask this question: How many games are sitting on your shelves that you played a month or less?
Nobody is perfect...My name is Nobody
haha i know its not to me but i will use my self as a exp:
i have
1.WOW
2.DAOC
3.L2
4.SWG
5. FF online
6.The Saga Of Ryzom
7.Shadowbane
that is 7 haha wow that is alot. most of them becouse i looked at graphics and not game play haha wow that is alot and i am getting more but this time more game play then graphics haha what a dork i am
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If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Gameplay is much more important, due to the fact I can play a game longer without good graphics and good gameplay than can vice-versa. To be truthful Runescape will have to be one of the best mmorpgs I have ever played. Graphics weren't all that spectacular but hey the gameplay was in there. Cooking, crafting, and questing and tons more that game is the ish.
Gameplay is the more important of the two, but heck having both wouldn't hut either
________________________________
I must not fear, fear is the mind killer.
Fear is the little death that leads to obliteration, I must permit fear to pass over me and through me.
________________________________
While sweet graphics are very nice, gameplay is far more important.
The gameplay is the core of any game (the meat if you will), the graphics, while being important, are like gravy.
Frankly, i've been keeping my eyes peeled for a sweet game that will have me hooked for a long time, with a good balance of questing, crafting, fighting and some tactical and strategy aspect.
~Iragael Vandayanaa,
Elder of the Vandayanaa Dynasty,
Knight,
Order of the Shield,
Sacred Silver Blades.
My icon is copyright Jonathon Earl Bowser.