Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Instancing ruined mmos Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease
This is the correct prespective.
Instancing should not be part of mmos.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
1. People seem to forget that we are still playing games - not virtual worlds that are suppose to be 100% realistic.
2. The Raid/Group finder filled a need in WoW. It made it so you no longer have to sit in a capital city and spam "LFG" or "LFR", sometimes for hours on end. Blizzard steamlined and improved the process and only non-WoW players seem to cry foul.
3. Players in low population servers have the same chance of finding a group as players in high population servers.
4. Implementation of real ID allows you to stay connected (and even queue up) with people that you meet from different servers. I have made a few friends this way.
5. The Raid/Group finder automatically determines if you are geared enough for that content. Back in the day players would have to do manual gear checks. Since that time, Blizzard has streamlined the process. (Nobody found it fun to sit and spam for a group all day anyways). Yes WoW is a gear grind. Yes the end goal is achieving the best gear and bragging rights. Blizzard has never tried to pretend this is NOT the case.
6. Better loot still drops from raiding with a guild. Raiders are still alive and flourishing. They still develop friendship and rivalries, they still experience success and failure, they still have drama and bonding experiences, they are still like they were in 2004.
7. Even if raid and group finders made the PvE side of WoW less sociable (which it didn't), who cares? There are still multiple ways to socialize outside of doing dungeons and participating in the Raid finder system.
Typical haters. Trying to hate on features that actually improve a game.
Too much logic! I kind of wish that this site could break into two sites, one for Theme Parkers and one for anti-Theme Parkers.
Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
I'm sure LOTR would be just as epic if Gandalf went to hit the Balrog but discovered that Radagast had tagged him first and so Gandalf hat to wait 5 hours in hopes of the Balrog respawning.
Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
ROFL love this metafore in relation to theampark MMOs we have today. Forget the journey guys. Let me call one of these huge ass birds to fly us right to Mordor and drop this baby in that volcano. End scene.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Instancing ruined mmos Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease
This is the correct prespective.
Instancing should not be part of mmos.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
I liked camp checks. met some great people waiting on mobs to spawn.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Instancing ruined mmos Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease
This is the correct prespective.
Instancing should not be part of mmos.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
It was horribly designed in that respect. Too bad WOW inherited almost all the same bad designs.
You know, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of MMOs without instancing, how come you think just because ONE game didn't go well without instancing, that ALL games without instances had the same problems? I never camped boss spawns in DAoC, because they solved the issue with GOOD GAME DESIGN, not with instances.
Instances are the lazy way out of bad game design, and whenever they're in an MMO its a pretty sure sign that the developers are phoning it in.
Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
I'm sure LOTR would be just as epic if Gandalf went to hit the Balrog but discovered that Radagast had tagged him first and so Gandalf hat to wait 5 hours in hopes of the Balrog respawning.
Or or or! <gasp> they could have worked together, you know, like real people do.
Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
I'm sure LOTR would be just as epic if Gandalf went to hit the Balrog but discovered that Radagast had tagged him first and so Gandalf hat to wait 5 hours in hopes of the Balrog respawning.
Hey leave your hate for the EQ fans, im just a vanilla wow loverboy.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Instancing ruined mmos Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease
This is the correct prespective.
Instancing should not be part of mmos.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
The issue here, as it would seem is always the issue, is that you have separate groups of people who have separate points of view.
It's like each group is facing one side of the coin and one is vehemently arguing "no, it's heads" and the other is "what are you a fool? It's clearly tails!"
What you just wrote is actually a plus for some people.
Personally, my thought is that the boss should see anyone approaching it and just attack accordingly. Should he/she be downed, the first one to grab the goodies wins.
But you know, that's just "one side of the coin".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You don't have to do open world bosses, open world dungeons like that, with who tagged the mob get all. You can do it daoc, coh, gw2 style (although gw2 makes its world bosses too easy)
Originally posted by ShakyMo Frodo Your thinking in EQ terms.
You don't have to do open world bosses, open world dungeons like that, with who tagged the mob get all. You can do it daoc, coh, gw2 style (although gw2 makes its world bosses too easy)
Don't bother. Themepark lovers only have a very shadowy vague idea of what pre WoW MMOs were. All they know are overblown horror stories of early EQ, they have no actual understand of how a game world would work without instances. They just assume it would be just like WoW, except everyone sharing dungeons.
DAoC had the best raiding system in any pre WoW MMO I played. But if WoW fans admitted that, they'd lose their whole argument, so they ignore that.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Frodo Your thinking in EQ terms.
You don't have to do open world bosses, open world dungeons like that, with who tagged the mob get all. You can do it daoc, coh, gw2 style (although gw2 makes its world bosses too easy)
Don't bother. Themepark lovers only have a very shadowy vague idea of what pre WoW MMOs were. All they know are overblown horror stories of early EQ, they have no actual understand of how a game world would work without instances. They just assume it would be just like WoW, except everyone sharing dungeons.
DAoC had the best raiding system in any pre WoW MMO I played. But if WoW fans admitted that, they'd lose their whole argument, so they ignore that.
I watched friends play EQ. I know exactly how it worked and how crazy I thought they were to spend so much time sitting and waiting. It's not like I wasn't around for UO or EQ. I simply chose other genres because I didn't find the gameplay to be compelling enough. I preferred D2, WC3 and FPS games because they were more fun to me.
GW2 style world bosses are a bad example because nobody even talks to each other. I'm not sure anyone could organize a zerg of random people in the world. Especially if some were griefers.
Don't bother. Themepark lovers only have a very shadowy vague idea of what pre WoW MMOs were. All they know are overblown horror stories of early EQ, they have no actual understand of how a game world would work without instances. They just assume it would be just like WoW, except everyone sharing dungeons.
It's funny you say that.
Recently I was watching a "let's play raiderz" video. there were two guys playing and commenting on the game. At one point they enter their first dungeon. They then noticed there was someone else there. One said "wait, there's another guy in here with us". The other one said "I know, that's weird"
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by ShakyMo Frodo Your thinking in EQ terms.
You don't have to do open world bosses, open world dungeons like that, with who tagged the mob get all. You can do it daoc, coh, gw2 style (although gw2 makes its world bosses too easy)
Don't bother. Themepark lovers only have a very shadowy vague idea of what pre WoW MMOs were. All they know are overblown horror stories of early EQ, they have no actual understand of how a game world would work without instances. They just assume it would be just like WoW, except everyone sharing dungeons.
DAoC had the best raiding system in any pre WoW MMO I played. But if WoW fans admitted that, they'd lose their whole argument, so they ignore that.
I watched friends play EQ. I know exactly how it worked and how crazy I thought they were to spend so much time sitting and waiting. It's not like I wasn't around for UO or EQ. I simply chose other genres because I didn't find the gameplay to be compelling enough. I preferred D2, WC3 and FPS games because they were more fun to me.
GW2 style world bosses are a bad example because nobody even talks to each other. I'm not sure anyone could organize a zerg of random people in the world. Especially if some were griefers.
DAoC is revered for its RvR, not it's PVE.
DAoC is revered for its entire game, as it was very well developed. It had some of the hardest, and best raids, in MMO history. Its day to day PvE was average/slightly above average (mostly just copy paste from EQ PvE, with better combat feel) but the raids were unmatched.
Don't go assuming you knew what all the several dozen pre WoW MMOs were like because you peeked over a buddy's shoulder while he was playing EQ, which we've already agreed was flawed in design and in need of instances.
But thanks for helping me prove my point that WoW fans will ignore facts to help defend their point.
Well made MMOs do not need instances. Good developers compensate with good game design: see DAoC.
Bad developers compensate with instancing, sacrifice the Massively Multiplayer for a bit more convenience, because it takes a lot more talent and understanding to make an instanceless MMO, something the companies churning out WOW clones do not have.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Instancing ruined mmos Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease
This is the correct prespective.
Instancing should not be part of mmos.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
I liked camp checks. met some great people waiting on mobs to spawn.
I hate camp checks. I don't play games to meet people.
Quit EQ after 1 year .. and i stayed for 1 year only because there weren't many choices.
torchlight 2 is a much better game as its not hampered by design descisions to encourage players to use the real money auction house, youre not portalling back to town every 5 frikin minutes and it doesnt force you to play through on noob mode first.
Torchlight 2 is dead already. It's a ridiculously shallow game that lasted me two weeks. TL2 is made by a good team that doesn't have the budget/desire to make a true D2 successor. It's just a $20 short term game. It's essentially a console game for the PC.
I gladly returned to D3 after all of their improvements. The current iteration of D3 is far,far better than TL2 and POE.
I agree. In fact, i will play it over 99% of the MMOs out there. Fun combat. Lots of ways to customize skills. Almost endless progression.
DAoC is revered for its entire game, as it was very well developed. It had some of the hardest, and best raids, in MMO history. Its day to day PvE was average/slightly above average (mostly just copy paste from EQ PvE, with better combat feel) but the raids were unmatched.
Don't go assuming you knew what all the several dozen pre WoW MMOs were like because you peeked over a buddy's shoulder while he was playing EQ, which we've already agreed was flawed in design and in need of instances.
But thanks for helping me prove my point that WoW fans will ignore facts to help defend their point.
Well made MMOs do not need instances. Good developers compensate with good game design: see DAoC.
Bad developers compensate with instancing, sacrifice the Massively Multiplayer for a bit more convenience, because it takes a lot more talent and understanding to make an instanceless MMO, something the companies churning out WOW clones do not have.
Games like Asherons Call and DAoC are revered by a small group of people. There's a reason why no successful game has cropped up by using them as a foundation like EQ was.
There is more evidence to suggest that core MMORPGs are successful than there is to suggest that themeparks are where the money is. We didn't have failures as gargantuan as most of the themeparks over the last 8 years.
The problem is, publishers don't have their finger on the pulse of the MMORPG community, they take a cursory glance, see WoW is doing well, and go "copy that". The people that actually know how to make a good MMO don't get publisher backing most of the time.
And what evidence is that?
In terms of actual evidence, all I see are themeparks making more $$$ then sandboxes.
I'm just stating factual numbers.
Whether you like those factual numbers or not is irrelevant.
You see WoW making more than Eve. What other themepark is beating Eve?
TOR .. even a "failed" themepark got 2M boxes sold and 1.7M sub for months. That is 4x what Eve achieved in years.
And the marketing budget for TOR is probably bigger than the entire development cost of Eve over the course of the last 5 years.
A lot of big box sales means absolutely nothing when you spend 30 million on CGI trailers at E3 and on TV and on every gaming website, with one of the biggest IPs in the world.
All that, and right now Eve still has more subs than SWTOR does. SWTOR cost 300 million to make, Eve cost, how much?
Eve is still growing, while most of the SWTOR staff has been fired or quit.
See where your example doesn't work?
YOu say 'beat'. Did TOR "beat" EVE in sales? In subs? Heck, after it goes F2P, i am sure it beat Eve by a long mile in active users.
How about Maple Story? That probably makes more money than Eve. Is that the benchmark? Tell me, is it sales, subs, active users, or money made?
Originally posted by ShakyMo Instancing ruined mmos Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease
This is the correct prespective.
Instancing should not be part of mmos.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
I liked camp checks. met some great people waiting on mobs to spawn.
I hate camp checks. I don't play games to meet people.
Quit EQ after 1 year .. and i stayed for 1 year only because there weren't many choices.
The good thing about our play styles? We wont have to inhabit the same game. with as many games as you like to play at one time, you wont find yourself in the games i love. If i want a quick fix for gaming ill pop in mario cart. If i want to interact with others and enjoy a deep, meaningful gaming experiance? Ill play MMOs. ( REAL MMOs)
Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
I'm sure LOTR would be just as epic if Gandalf went to hit the Balrog but discovered that Radagast had tagged him first and so Gandalf hat to wait 5 hours in hopes of the Balrog respawning.
Or or or! they could have worked together, you know, like real people do.
Real people bickers. Why do you think solo-ing is so popular in MMOs. Do you realy think people want to work together all the time when they relax in a entertainment product?
Comments
Im pretty sure Lord Of The Rings would be just as epic if they just had Gandalf teleport Frodo into Mordor in the start of the first movie so they could destroy the ring right away.
God what a horrible idea. Let's camp Boss spawn points for hours in hopes of being the group that tags it first. This is the #1 reason why I thought EQ was horribly designed.
Too much logic! I kind of wish that this site could break into two sites, one for Theme Parkers and one for anti-Theme Parkers.
I'm sure LOTR would be just as epic if Gandalf went to hit the Balrog but discovered that Radagast had tagged him first and so Gandalf hat to wait 5 hours in hopes of the Balrog respawning.
ROFL love this metafore in relation to theampark MMOs we have today. Forget the journey guys. Let me call one of these huge ass birds to fly us right to Mordor and drop this baby in that volcano. End scene.
I liked camp checks. met some great people waiting on mobs to spawn.
It was horribly designed in that respect. Too bad WOW inherited almost all the same bad designs.
You know, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of MMOs without instancing, how come you think just because ONE game didn't go well without instancing, that ALL games without instances had the same problems? I never camped boss spawns in DAoC, because they solved the issue with GOOD GAME DESIGN, not with instances.
Instances are the lazy way out of bad game design, and whenever they're in an MMO its a pretty sure sign that the developers are phoning it in.
Or or or! <gasp> they could have worked together, you know, like real people do.
Hey leave your hate for the EQ fans, im just a vanilla wow loverboy.
The issue here, as it would seem is always the issue, is that you have separate groups of people who have separate points of view.
It's like each group is facing one side of the coin and one is vehemently arguing "no, it's heads" and the other is "what are you a fool? It's clearly tails!"
What you just wrote is actually a plus for some people.
Personally, my thought is that the boss should see anyone approaching it and just attack accordingly. Should he/she be downed, the first one to grab the goodies wins.
But you know, that's just "one side of the coin".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Your thinking in EQ terms.
You don't have to do open world bosses, open world dungeons like that, with who tagged the mob get all. You can do it daoc, coh, gw2 style (although gw2 makes its world bosses too easy)
Don't bother. Themepark lovers only have a very shadowy vague idea of what pre WoW MMOs were. All they know are overblown horror stories of early EQ, they have no actual understand of how a game world would work without instances. They just assume it would be just like WoW, except everyone sharing dungeons.
DAoC had the best raiding system in any pre WoW MMO I played. But if WoW fans admitted that, they'd lose their whole argument, so they ignore that.
I watched friends play EQ. I know exactly how it worked and how crazy I thought they were to spend so much time sitting and waiting. It's not like I wasn't around for UO or EQ. I simply chose other genres because I didn't find the gameplay to be compelling enough. I preferred D2, WC3 and FPS games because they were more fun to me.
GW2 style world bosses are a bad example because nobody even talks to each other. I'm not sure anyone could organize a zerg of random people in the world. Especially if some were griefers.
DAoC is revered for its RvR, not it's PVE.
It's funny you say that.
Recently I was watching a "let's play raiderz" video. there were two guys playing and commenting on the game. At one point they enter their first dungeon. They then noticed there was someone else there. One said "wait, there's another guy in here with us". The other one said "I know, that's weird"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
DAoC is revered for its entire game, as it was very well developed. It had some of the hardest, and best raids, in MMO history. Its day to day PvE was average/slightly above average (mostly just copy paste from EQ PvE, with better combat feel) but the raids were unmatched.
Don't go assuming you knew what all the several dozen pre WoW MMOs were like because you peeked over a buddy's shoulder while he was playing EQ, which we've already agreed was flawed in design and in need of instances.
But thanks for helping me prove my point that WoW fans will ignore facts to help defend their point.
Well made MMOs do not need instances. Good developers compensate with good game design: see DAoC.
Bad developers compensate with instancing, sacrifice the Massively Multiplayer for a bit more convenience, because it takes a lot more talent and understanding to make an instanceless MMO, something the companies churning out WOW clones do not have.
I hate camp checks. I don't play games to meet people.
Quit EQ after 1 year .. and i stayed for 1 year only because there weren't many choices.
I agree. In fact, i will play it over 99% of the MMOs out there. Fun combat. Lots of ways to customize skills. Almost endless progression.
What is so bad if they can make the same amount of money by making many short term games?
And from a player perspective, isn't more games, more variety better?
Games like Asherons Call and DAoC are revered by a small group of people. There's a reason why no successful game has cropped up by using them as a foundation like EQ was.
YOu say 'beat'. Did TOR "beat" EVE in sales? In subs? Heck, after it goes F2P, i am sure it beat Eve by a long mile in active users.
How about Maple Story? That probably makes more money than Eve. Is that the benchmark? Tell me, is it sales, subs, active users, or money made?
The good thing about our play styles? We wont have to inhabit the same game. with as many games as you like to play at one time, you wont find yourself in the games i love. If i want a quick fix for gaming ill pop in mario cart. If i want to interact with others and enjoy a deep, meaningful gaming experiance? Ill play MMOs. ( REAL MMOs)
I doubt they will make another mmo. (which is a good thing)
Real people bickers. Why do you think solo-ing is so popular in MMOs. Do you realy think people want to work together all the time when they relax in a entertainment product?
Wow robbed its entire UI from ac.
Nari
Eve beat swtor because its made a profit. Swtor still hasn't broke even, and likely never will.
In that case, Maple story beat Eve by making a much bigger profit. I bet LOL also beat Eve.