The idea of a sandbox might be fun, but most sandboxes are just synonyms for worlds without any content.
So maybe people are more restricted in the teapots than in the carts up above, but at least they bothered to make the teapots fun and least there are people to have fun with.
LOL You're doing it wrong. You are showing a dead themepark and a lively themepark. Where is my sandbox? My sandbox would have that ride in it, but I'd never have to use it if I didnt want to
If that picture is from Prypiat, it is quite fitting portrayal of a sandbox.
Must be referring to some sort of post apocolyptic sandbox... hmmm.
CoH looked like that and it was a themepark.... hmmmmm
So did many other themeparks... hmmm..... starting to see a trend here... it would appear that ANY game is susceptible to declinding population regardless of whether it is a themepark or sandbox.... hmmmm seems there is a way to counter any argument when talking about MMO's as there have been succesful and failed forms of all games...
*edit* and now to be a dick about it!
So, in the sandbox version, whats NOT told in the picture is you can do whatever you want there. Bring a ton of friends and have fightclub, flip the ride over, climb on top of stuff, paint it all a different colour, start a business there, build a house there, tear it down. Fight a boss. Lure enemies there and ambush them.
Now in the themepark version you get on the ride. Thats it. Once you get off you can get back on again. Same music. Same speed. Same ride. Sure different people are in the other little tea cups, but you don't talk to them. When you come back you see new people but don't talk to them either. So basically, ride the tea cups, shutup, and repeat it again if you want
LOL You're doing it wrong. You are showing a dead themepark and a lively themepark. Where is my sandbox? My sandbox would have that ride in it, but I'd never have to use it if I didnt want to
Ha ha. I got a laugh out of it as well. Dead theme park is exactly what I saw.
My money goes with Zekiah's original picture post. Simple, and sums it up in a neat fundamental fashion.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
LOL You're doing it wrong. You are showing a dead themepark and a lively themepark. Where is my sandbox? My sandbox would have that ride in it, but I'd never have to use it if I didnt want to
Ha ha. I got a laugh out of it as well. Dead theme park is exactly what I saw.
My money goes with Zekiah's original picture post. Simple, and sums it up in a neat fundamental fashion.
Thing is, nothing wrong with a themepark if thats what you like, but why go against those wanting a sandbox? Goofballs. And agreed, his original pic post was the best so far lol.
LOL You're doing it wrong. You are showing a dead themepark and a lively themepark. Where is my sandbox? My sandbox would have that ride in it, but I'd never have to use it if I didnt want to
Ha ha. I got a laugh out of it as well. Dead theme park is exactly what I saw.
My money goes with Zekiah's original picture post. Simple, and sums it up in a neat fundamental fashion.
Thing is, nothing wrong with a themepark if thats what you like, but why go against those wanting a sandbox? Goofballs. And agreed, his original pic post was the best so far lol.
"Go against"? He is just making a point. He never said you should not get your sandbox. But at the same time, there is no problem in pointing out there are good themeparks.
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
Do you actually have a point, or you just like to post random stuff to bump my posts?
Nothing random about it. He made his point in only a few words. If you insist on dishing it out on these forums all day long, you had better be prepared to take some.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
Just felt nice to write it once
Flame on!
Well i never demand all games to become lobby games. I am commenting that many MMOs are going the lobby route and i like it. There is a difference. I never go to Darkfall and ask them to convert. I am just stating i won't play it. Its existence is perfectly fine.
And oh .. if i like lobby gaming, why shouldn't i be happy when i am getting it?
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
That's how the best MMORPGs were made, and that's the only way they'll be made again.
And not just sandboxes, as the distinction didn't exist so much back before WoW. DAoC would never be called a themepark, but it wasn't really a sandbox either.
Chances are, if the big publishers died and all the big companies pulled out of MMOs, and we went back to GOOD game designers making games they love to play, there'd be something for everyone again.
Back in the pre WoW days there was an insane amount of game variety for everyone. There were even themeparks for those that liked them, Diablo and its entire genre.
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
Just felt nice to write it once
Flame on!
Felt good didnt it?
And good point lol
Did they though? Did anyone ever go into an MMO and demand lobby access?
Or did developers just look at what people were doing, add those into the game?
Naris is just asking for more of what developers have allready decided to do. He didn't demand it. He is using what they give him and likes it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
Just felt nice to write it once
Flame on!
Felt good didnt it?
And good point lol
Did they though? Did anyone ever go into an MMO and demand lobby access?
Or did developers just look at what people were doing, add those into the game?
Naris is just asking for more of what developers have allready decided to do. He didn't demand it. He is using what they give him and likes it.
Those developers aren't making MMO's anymore, and thus don't apply here anyway. If you want to discuss those kinds of games here, that's fine, there is a general gaming forum, this forum is for MMO's. If an MMO has a lobby, thats fine, the topic belongs here, yet there are no MMO's with a lobby that I can think of. If it doesnt have hundreds of people playing together at once, how can you classify it as massive?
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Those games are called MMO's by the majority and the majority determines what words mean.
So I guess our little corner of the world is turning the word "MASSIVE" into meaning "SMALL" or "FEW". So what should we call our new website so we can discuss games with hundreds of people? GMORPG? g = gigantic, or does that mean a dozen? How about Gigantanormous! That sounds pretty good, I figure that means a 100 or so at least.
Thats where you need to get into definitions. The community states those games are MMO's and the developers are making them. Therefore they should be discussed here.
They are different than old MMO's yes but they still satisfy the acronym.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
Just felt nice to write it once
Flame on!
Felt good didnt it?
And good point lol
Did they though? Did anyone ever go into an MMO and demand lobby access?
Or did developers just look at what people were doing, add those into the game?
Naris is just asking for more of what developers have allready decided to do. He didn't demand it. He is using what they give him and likes it.
It was hyperbole, obviously wasted.
Yet i could make a point about people demanding lfg/lfr left and right in say rift, or as for "looking what the people are doing", if it would be true, the devs would probably hack off raids first , as only around 20% of players participated in them in the past.
The problem is the precedent that is set in any genre and when making a new product not straying from the current expectations but still offering something new.
This is what video game designers do with large budget games.
However... I would have to say logically MMOs which are themepark would be better as a true co-op, and some multiplayer... rather than an MMO in a watered down co-op without the single player benefits of choice in a single player game, and changing environments, physics, better exploration, better ambiance, better NPC life/actions and overall better graphics.
The online portion of a co-op can still include some of the nice things in an MMO such as duel arenas, crafting, and maybe maps are redrawn for new instances, mini games, have nightmare mode to do content for co-op, large scale pvp, and a bunch of other possibilities including even player housing.
So, instead of devs making MMOs out of single player games which become too linear and too themed with a paved out path... why not embrace the philosphy behind the themepark, and make it a better single player game, which has co-op but also an online mode.
And there can be a lobby with a lot of chat.
Really, the illusion in a themepark MMO is that people are integrated into a meaningful virtual world but this meaningfulness first comes from the idea that people are in the thousands on the server, and that crafting is essential, or interaction has an affect. However, the worlds in most themepark games (or all) are very static, nothing changes and crafting is not essential but more about group content to get loot, and interactions if they have any affect would be people griefing others in 'open world pvp' or ninja looting. So whats the point of giving up a potentially better single player experience for an MMO that does not give players a chance to create a virtual reality, with the proper tools considered for all/( a lot of) options?
The problem goes back to the idea of sand box MMOs not doing well, and hybrid options being to costly to balance for a proper launch... so instead of overinvesting into a product, devs can do what they normally do with single player titles which normally sell very well, and add some online features.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Personally I think lobby games and co-op games are MMO"s. I don't care what the developers called GW1, it meets the criteria of the acronym MMO.
IMO MMO is an an umbrella term and can encompass any online game that is more people than in a multiplayer. Lobby, RPG, FPS... they are all MMO's just different sub-genre's.
Think if it like the book term fiction, a broad term that encompases high, low fantasky, steampunk, science fiction, horror, historical...
edit - to me the developers of GW1 saying there game is not an MMO is like Kellog's saying Vector is a meal replacement and not a cereal. Essentially meaningless spin to differentiate their product.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Personally I think lobby games and co-op games are MMO"s. I don't care what the developers called GW1, it meets the criteria of the acronym MMO.
IMO MMO is an an umbrella term and can encompass any online game that is more people than in a multiplayer. Lobby, RPG, FPS... they are all MMO's just different sub-genre's.
Think if it like the book term fiction, a broad term that encompases high, low fantasky, steampunk, science fiction, horror, historical...
edit - to me the developers of GW1 saying there game is not an MMO is like Kellog's saying Vector is a meal replacement and not a cereal. Essentially meaningless spin to differentiate their product.
The only problem I see here is "massive multiplayer". Guildwars one lacked that part. If you can consider 8 people playing at one time MASSIVE, then that confuses me.
While massive doesn't have a number, it is certainly more than a few dozen.
Massive Definition:
Adjective:
Large and heavy or solid.
Exceptionally large: "massive crowds are expected"
I am sorry, but I will argue to the death that if you only have a couple to maybe 4 dozen players in a game at any one time, it is not massive. That is not an awful lot of people at all. No one uses the word "massive" to describe a riot containing only 12 people.
And beyond massive, MMO also contains the world MULTIPLAYER, key word in there being PLAY. So a lobby (which is a chat room with avatars), is not playing a game. You are simply waiting to actually play the game. If we went by the loose definition on here that is exceptionally illogical, then you can pretty well much add a ton of games to this site! Lets go on and add:
Counterstrike
Team Fortress
Battlefield
Call of Duty
Black and White
Baldurs Gate
Icewind Dale
Neverwinter Nights
GTA 4
Orcs must die 2
Alien Swarm
Half-Life 2 Deathmatch
Quake
Unreal
Basically, by stating that those games are MMO's, you are destroying the original meaning of MMO. While it has never been defined on paper, it is pretty freaking obvious that MOBA's and lobby games are NOT MMO's. Which is why a MOBA is even missing the first M which means massive! I can't believe people argue this.
Comments
Must be referring to some sort of post apocolyptic sandbox... hmmm.
CoH looked like that and it was a themepark.... hmmmmm
So did many other themeparks... hmmm..... starting to see a trend here... it would appear that ANY game is susceptible to declinding population regardless of whether it is a themepark or sandbox.... hmmmm seems there is a way to counter any argument when talking about MMO's as there have been succesful and failed forms of all games...
*edit* and now to be a dick about it!
So, in the sandbox version, whats NOT told in the picture is you can do whatever you want there. Bring a ton of friends and have fightclub, flip the ride over, climb on top of stuff, paint it all a different colour, start a business there, build a house there, tear it down. Fight a boss. Lure enemies there and ambush them.
Now in the themepark version you get on the ride. Thats it. Once you get off you can get back on again. Same music. Same speed. Same ride. Sure different people are in the other little tea cups, but you don't talk to them. When you come back you see new people but don't talk to them either. So basically, ride the tea cups, shutup, and repeat it again if you want
Ha ha. I got a laugh out of it as well. Dead theme park is exactly what I saw.
My money goes with Zekiah's original picture post. Simple, and sums it up in a neat fundamental fashion.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Thing is, nothing wrong with a themepark if thats what you like, but why go against those wanting a sandbox? Goofballs. And agreed, his original pic post was the best so far lol.
100% agree with this. I still believe MMOs must die and be reborn under indie developers once again. Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later.
/signed
"Go against"? He is just making a point. He never said you should not get your sandbox. But at the same time, there is no problem in pointing out there are good themeparks.
100% disagree with this. Why would you want to take themepark away from those who like it?
You want to take away all the types of games you don't like too .. how about online ARPG, MOBA, MMOFPS?
Well, to explain, technically, the feeling is that the moba, arpg and mmofps people are taking away the mmorpg and even themepark concept from "us", "we" dont go to moba forums demanding a open world, yet "you" come to mmorpg forums demanding lobby gameplay with the premise that it is somehow "better game design" and unfortunately are getting it.
Just felt nice to write it once
Flame on!
Nothing random about it. He made his point in only a few words. If you insist on dishing it out on these forums all day long, you had better be prepared to take some.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Felt good didnt it?
And good point lol
Well i never demand all games to become lobby games. I am commenting that many MMOs are going the lobby route and i like it. There is a difference. I never go to Darkfall and ask them to convert. I am just stating i won't play it. Its existence is perfectly fine.
And oh .. if i like lobby gaming, why shouldn't i be happy when i am getting it?
That's how the best MMORPGs were made, and that's the only way they'll be made again.
And not just sandboxes, as the distinction didn't exist so much back before WoW. DAoC would never be called a themepark, but it wasn't really a sandbox either.
Chances are, if the big publishers died and all the big companies pulled out of MMOs, and we went back to GOOD game designers making games they love to play, there'd be something for everyone again.
Back in the pre WoW days there was an insane amount of game variety for everyone. There were even themeparks for those that liked them, Diablo and its entire genre.
Today, its either WoW clone, or nothing.
And people call MMo veterans selfish
Did they though? Did anyone ever go into an MMO and demand lobby access?
Or did developers just look at what people were doing, add those into the game?
Naris is just asking for more of what developers have allready decided to do. He didn't demand it. He is using what they give him and likes it.
Those developers aren't making MMO's anymore, and thus don't apply here anyway. If you want to discuss those kinds of games here, that's fine, there is a general gaming forum, this forum is for MMO's. If an MMO has a lobby, thats fine, the topic belongs here, yet there are no MMO's with a lobby that I can think of. If it doesnt have hundreds of people playing together at once, how can you classify it as massive?
So I guess our little corner of the world is turning the word "MASSIVE" into meaning "SMALL" or "FEW". So what should we call our new website so we can discuss games with hundreds of people? GMORPG? g = gigantic, or does that mean a dozen? How about Gigantanormous! That sounds pretty good, I figure that means a 100 or so at least.
Thats where you need to get into definitions. The community states those games are MMO's and the developers are making them. Therefore they should be discussed here.
They are different than old MMO's yes but they still satisfy the acronym.
It was hyperbole, obviously wasted.
Yet i could make a point about people demanding lfg/lfr left and right in say rift, or as for "looking what the people are doing", if it would be true, the devs would probably hack off raids first , as only around 20% of players participated in them in the past.
Flame on!
The problem is the precedent that is set in any genre and when making a new product not straying from the current expectations but still offering something new.
This is what video game designers do with large budget games.
However... I would have to say logically MMOs which are themepark would be better as a true co-op, and some multiplayer... rather than an MMO in a watered down co-op without the single player benefits of choice in a single player game, and changing environments, physics, better exploration, better ambiance, better NPC life/actions and overall better graphics.
The online portion of a co-op can still include some of the nice things in an MMO such as duel arenas, crafting, and maybe maps are redrawn for new instances, mini games, have nightmare mode to do content for co-op, large scale pvp, and a bunch of other possibilities including even player housing.
So, instead of devs making MMOs out of single player games which become too linear and too themed with a paved out path... why not embrace the philosphy behind the themepark, and make it a better single player game, which has co-op but also an online mode.
And there can be a lobby with a lot of chat.
Really, the illusion in a themepark MMO is that people are integrated into a meaningful virtual world but this meaningfulness first comes from the idea that people are in the thousands on the server, and that crafting is essential, or interaction has an affect. However, the worlds in most themepark games (or all) are very static, nothing changes and crafting is not essential but more about group content to get loot, and interactions if they have any affect would be people griefing others in 'open world pvp' or ninja looting. So whats the point of giving up a potentially better single player experience for an MMO that does not give players a chance to create a virtual reality, with the proper tools considered for all/( a lot of) options?
The problem goes back to the idea of sand box MMOs not doing well, and hybrid options being to costly to balance for a proper launch... so instead of overinvesting into a product, devs can do what they normally do with single player titles which normally sell very well, and add some online features.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Personally I think lobby games and co-op games are MMO"s. I don't care what the developers called GW1, it meets the criteria of the acronym MMO.
IMO MMO is an an umbrella term and can encompass any online game that is more people than in a multiplayer. Lobby, RPG, FPS... they are all MMO's just different sub-genre's.
Think if it like the book term fiction, a broad term that encompases high, low fantasky, steampunk, science fiction, horror, historical...
edit - to me the developers of GW1 saying there game is not an MMO is like Kellog's saying Vector is a meal replacement and not a cereal. Essentially meaningless spin to differentiate their product.
The only problem I see here is "massive multiplayer". Guildwars one lacked that part. If you can consider 8 people playing at one time MASSIVE, then that confuses me.
While massive doesn't have a number, it is certainly more than a few dozen.
Massive Definition:
And beyond massive, MMO also contains the world MULTIPLAYER, key word in there being PLAY. So a lobby (which is a chat room with avatars), is not playing a game. You are simply waiting to actually play the game. If we went by the loose definition on here that is exceptionally illogical, then you can pretty well much add a ton of games to this site! Lets go on and add:
Counterstrike
Team Fortress
Battlefield
Call of Duty
Black and White
Baldurs Gate
Icewind Dale
Neverwinter Nights
GTA 4
Orcs must die 2
Alien Swarm
Half-Life 2 Deathmatch
Quake
Unreal
Basically, by stating that those games are MMO's, you are destroying the original meaning of MMO. While it has never been defined on paper, it is pretty freaking obvious that MOBA's and lobby games are NOT MMO's. Which is why a MOBA is even missing the first M which means massive! I can't believe people argue this.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky