Originally posted by FrodoFragins There is definitely a segment of the population that feels an MMO must require grouping to level or do anything but craft or decorate an electronic doll house.
Uhh.. what? No, we just believe that grouping should be more rewarding than soloing, considering it's harder. And we believe that mechanics should encourage players to work together, not by themselves.
None of the pre WoW MMOs I played made it impossible to progress while solo.
Originally posted by nariusseldon There is no such thing. MMO is just a label to put on a collection of games. Each have different features. The label is just for convenience.
Wrong. Unfortunately, MMORPG has really blurred the lines of what is and what is not. This site is more of a games site these days, rather than just a MMO site.
Right. This site has games on it that are not MMOs. GW1 is specifically NOT AN MMO, even the devs say it, yet it's on this site.
The original REAL definition of MMO, and what MMO vets refer to when we talk about them, are living seamless virtual worlds, that have thousands of players sharing the same space, with a focus on socializing/competition.
But, people can break down the acronym all they like to the point where it means nothing. You can call Call of Duty an RPG these days. You're playing a role, in a game! How does it not fit?
The real meaning behind the acronym has always been what I stated above, until it got coopted by big publishers who slapped it into their singleplayer games to justify a monthly fee. (see, SWTOR)
First, most MMOs are going F2P, so this argument about monthly fee is just wrong. Even TOR which you call out, is going F2P. So what monthly fees?
Secondly, it is not meaningless if the term encompass only a SUBSET of games. Take all the games. Now look at those gaming press (or devs) are calling MMOs. They are not even half. No one is going to call COD a MMO, or even Borderlands.
As long as it does identify a subset of games, it is a useful label. And yes, it is different than before, but so what? Things always evolve. RPG itself is not the same as the PnP version. There is no reason why MMO has to stay the same forever.
Originally posted by nethervoid It's funny what gets classified as an MMO these days. Like world of tanks. It's basically COD with tanks. They have a competative map, so they call it an MMO. Don't get me wrong I like the game, but it's anything but an MMO.
I won't object if this site is renamed to onlinegame.com. LOL is here. Diablo 3 is here. WOT is here.
I'm asking this mainly to the UO and EQ vets as I never played them. My first MMO was EVE back in 2003/4 when peak was 3-4000 players (yes, I did't leave off a zero). At the time I had no clue exactly what an MMO was and thought I was just playing an online space game. The same can be said for SWG which was my next game (not sure if this was pre CU but it was defintely pre-NGE). It was only after I started playing the 'mmo that shall not be named' you know the one with lots of subs, and subsequent MMOs that I realized what an MMO was.
So back to my original question, what is a Real MMO?
Real mmorpg or real mmo, as the latter doesn't need to be an rpg?
I would say it's as it says, being able to play with a Massive amount or Multiple people in an Online Role Playing Game.
Most games now barely seem to live up to an mo let alone an mmo(sometimes even just o).
The rpg part I would require a seperate definition to the mmo part.
most recent games dont really do the massive, multiplayer or role playing parts, once you hit endgame they are indistinguishable from other online games like CSGO or borderlands 2, instead of looking at a server list in a lobby you sit in a city and hit an auto queue or wait for your firends to come online. Not much different.
Originally posted by nariusseldon There is no such thing. MMO is just a label to put on a collection of games. Each have different features. The label is just for convenience.
Wrong. Unfortunately, MMORPG has really blurred the lines of what is and what is not. This site is more of a games site these days, rather than just a MMO site.
Right. This site has games on it that are not MMOs. GW1 is specifically NOT AN MMO, even the devs say it, yet it's on this site.
The original REAL definition of MMO, and what MMO vets refer to when we talk about them, are living seamless virtual worlds, that have thousands of players sharing the same space, with a focus on socializing/competition.
But, people can break down the acronym all they like to the point where it means nothing. You can call Call of Duty an RPG these days. You're playing a role, in a game! How does it not fit?
The real meaning behind the acronym has always been what I stated above, until it got coopted by big publishers who slapped it into their singleplayer games to justify a monthly fee. (see, SWTOR)
First, most MMOs are going F2P, so this argument about monthly fee is just wrong. Even TOR which you call out, is going F2P. So what monthly fees?
Secondly, it is not meaningless if the term encompass only a SUBSET of games. Take all the games. Now look at those gaming press (or devs) are calling MMOs. They are not even half. No one is going to call COD a MMO, or even Borderlands.
As long as it does identify a subset of games, it is a useful label. And yes, it is different than before, but so what? Things always evolve. RPG itself is not the same as the PnP version. There is no reason why MMO has to stay the same forever.
i would call borderlands an online RPG along side diablo 3 AND modern wow / swotr / tsw etc.. once you've leveled in them and you playtime consists of instances or sitting in cities waiting to visit an instance. Its a neat trick "mmo" devs have played, replace the lobby with a city and suckas will pay a monthly sub.
So back to my original question, what is a Real MMO?
If that MMO can be transformed in to a paper and pen RPG,then its quite close.
Imagine random lft tools on paper and pen ,people who dont speak and tries to kill dungeon master and then farts.
UO is close but there is none ,mostly because MMORPG development stopped years ago.
PnP RPG is never massive. That is not it.
Those were just as massive as your imagination was and im sorry to hear about your experiences.
Unless you are playing with imaginery friends. Whoever says pnp rpg is massive just haven't played one. If pnp RPG is massive, than Skyrim is massive too. After all, you can "imagine" all the NPCs are real people, right?
i would call borderlands an online RPG along side diablo 3 AND modern wow / swotr / tsw etc.. once you've leveled in them and you playtime consists of instances or sitting in cities waiting to visit an instance. Its a neat trick "mmo" devs have played, replace the lobby with a city and suckas will pay a monthly sub.
Yes, Borderland is an online RPG.
Again, what subs? Aside from WOW, fewer and fewer MMO have subs. TOR (the one you listed) is going to F2P. Most MMOs are going F2P. Even GW2 has no sub (although not F2P).
So what is the problem playing a free game (or a box game) with a city as a lobby?
most recent games dont really do the massive, multiplayer or role playing parts, once you hit endgame they are indistinguishable from other online games like CSGO or borderlands 2, instead of looking at a server list in a lobby you sit in a city and hit an auto queue or wait for your firends to come online. Not much different.
Exactly. Thus, i treat MMOs like online ARPG. The only different between D3, BL2, and a MMO is the combat mechanics, and the look of the lobby.
So back to my original question, what is a Real MMO?
If that MMO can be transformed in to a paper and pen RPG,then its quite close.
Imagine random lft tools on paper and pen ,people who dont speak and tries to kill dungeon master and then farts.
UO is close but there is none ,mostly because MMORPG development stopped years ago.
PnP RPG is never massive. That is not it.
Those were just as massive as your imagination was and im sorry to hear about your experiences.
Unless you are playing with imaginery friends. Whoever says pnp rpg is massive just haven't played one. If pnp RPG is massive, than Skyrim is massive too. After all, you can "imagine" all the NPCs are real people, right?
You sound like a guy who tries to read a book but dont like books because people on those are NPCs.
Its your imagination and if you dont have one,i really cant help,Skyrims modding tools,imagination is the limit there also but like you said again it cant be massive.
most recent games dont really do the massive, multiplayer or role playing parts, once you hit endgame they are indistinguishable from other online games like CSGO or borderlands 2, instead of looking at a server list in a lobby you sit in a city and hit an auto queue or wait for your firends to come online. Not much different.
Exactly. Thus, i treat MMOs like online ARPG. The only different between D3, BL2, and a modern themepark MMO is the combat mechanics, and the look of the lobby.
With the addition of a couple of words, you have summarized the landscape pretty much perfectly.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
this simply means a game which has a Persistent world, for large numbers of players to play together. All MMO share this common element. No Persistent World, no MMO.
most recent games dont really do the massive, multiplayer or role playing parts, once you hit endgame they are indistinguishable from other online games like CSGO or borderlands 2, instead of looking at a server list in a lobby you sit in a city and hit an auto queue or wait for your firends to come online. Not much different.
Exactly. Thus, i treat MMOs like online ARPG. The only different between D3, BL2, and a MMO is the combat mechanics, and the look of the lobby.
Your bastardized view of what an mmo is dives deeply into disturbing. This homogenization of gaming is foolish and extremely unhealthy for the industry long term. I can only hope that people with your tastes fall into the minority down the road. More and more gamers seem to be opening their eyes as the danger in continuing down our current path becomes ever clearer.
"Mmo" and "lobby" should never even materialize in your head as a thought let alone be used in the same sentence. Shame!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
So back to my original question, what is a Real MMO?
If that MMO can be transformed in to a paper and pen RPG,then its quite close.
Imagine random lft tools on paper and pen ,people who dont speak and tries to kill dungeon master and then farts.
UO is close but there is none ,mostly because MMORPG development stopped years ago.
PnP RPG is never massive. That is not it.
Those were just as massive as your imagination was and im sorry to hear about your experiences.
Unless you are playing with imaginery friends. Whoever says pnp rpg is massive just haven't played one. If pnp RPG is massive, than Skyrim is massive too. After all, you can "imagine" all the NPCs are real people, right?
You sound like a guy who tries to read a book but dont like books because people on those are NPCs.
Its your imagination and if you dont have one,i really cant help,Skyrims modding tools,imagination is the limit there also but like you said again it cant be massive.
That point is the if i have to use my imagination to make it massive .. then there is no difference between a MMO and Diablo, or COD.
You can use your imagination to make any game with NPCs massive.
most recent games dont really do the massive, multiplayer or role playing parts, once you hit endgame they are indistinguishable from other online games like CSGO or borderlands 2, instead of looking at a server list in a lobby you sit in a city and hit an auto queue or wait for your firends to come online. Not much different.
Exactly. Thus, i treat MMOs like online ARPG. The only different between D3, BL2, and a MMO is the combat mechanics, and the look of the lobby.
Your bastardized view of what an mmo is dives deeply into disturbing. This homogenization of gaming is foolish and extremely unhealthy for the industry long term. I can only hope that people with your tastes fall into the minority down the road. More and more gamers seem to be opening their eyes as the danger in continuing down our current path becomes ever clearer.
"Mmo" and "lobby" should never even materialize in your head as a thought let alone be used in the same sentence. Shame!
Disturbing? Just for the view of some random guy on the internet on GAMES? "Danger"? Danger of what? Danger of not being entertained?
Games boils down to personal preferences and what is fun. If devs make games i like, i play. Otherwise, i will go to other form of entertainment. It is that simple. Online ARPGs are fun for me, and many others (well D3 sold 10M, that said something, TL is popular, that said something). Those games (as well as others) are competing for my time & money just like MMOs.
I don't see why i shouldn't compare them as games and choose the ones i like.
I don't know if my tastes are in the minority .. but the games i like (diablo, torchlight, dishonor, wow,....) are popular.
Comments
Uhh.. what? No, we just believe that grouping should be more rewarding than soloing, considering it's harder. And we believe that mechanics should encourage players to work together, not by themselves.
None of the pre WoW MMOs I played made it impossible to progress while solo.
First, most MMOs are going F2P, so this argument about monthly fee is just wrong. Even TOR which you call out, is going F2P. So what monthly fees?
Secondly, it is not meaningless if the term encompass only a SUBSET of games. Take all the games. Now look at those gaming press (or devs) are calling MMOs. They are not even half. No one is going to call COD a MMO, or even Borderlands.
As long as it does identify a subset of games, it is a useful label. And yes, it is different than before, but so what? Things always evolve. RPG itself is not the same as the PnP version. There is no reason why MMO has to stay the same forever.
I won't object if this site is renamed to onlinegame.com. LOL is here. Diablo 3 is here. WOT is here.
If that MMO can be transformed in to a paper and pen RPG,then its quite close.
Imagine random lft tools on paper and pen ,people who dont speak and tries to kill dungeon master and then farts.
UO is close but there is none ,mostly because MMORPG development stopped years ago.
Let's internet
Clear, I'm assuming.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Real mmorpg or real mmo, as the latter doesn't need to be an rpg?
I would say it's as it says, being able to play with a Massive amount or Multiple people in an Online Role Playing Game.
Most games now barely seem to live up to an mo let alone an mmo(sometimes even just o
).
The rpg part I would require a seperate definition to the mmo part.
PnP RPG is never massive. That is not it.
Those were just as massive as your imagination was and im sorry to hear about your experiences.
Let's internet
Is this thread going to devolve into a "massive vs. massively" fight?
If so: /popcorn
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
one that fullfills all the words in the acronym
most recent games dont really do the massive, multiplayer or role playing parts, once you hit endgame they are indistinguishable from other online games like CSGO or borderlands 2, instead of looking at a server list in a lobby you sit in a city and hit an auto queue or wait for your firends to come online. Not much different.
i would call borderlands an online RPG along side diablo 3 AND modern wow / swotr / tsw etc.. once you've leveled in them and you playtime consists of instances or sitting in cities waiting to visit an instance. Its a neat trick "mmo" devs have played, replace the lobby with a city and suckas will pay a monthly sub.
Unless you are playing with imaginery friends. Whoever says pnp rpg is massive just haven't played one. If pnp RPG is massive, than Skyrim is massive too. After all, you can "imagine" all the NPCs are real people, right?
Yes, Borderland is an online RPG.
Again, what subs? Aside from WOW, fewer and fewer MMO have subs. TOR (the one you listed) is going to F2P. Most MMOs are going F2P. Even GW2 has no sub (although not F2P).
So what is the problem playing a free game (or a box game) with a city as a lobby?
Exactly. Thus, i treat MMOs like online ARPG. The only different between D3, BL2, and a MMO is the combat mechanics, and the look of the lobby.
You sound like a guy who tries to read a book but dont like books because people on those are NPCs.
Its your imagination and if you dont have one,i really cant help,Skyrims modding tools,imagination is the limit there also but like you said again it cant be massive.
Let's internet
With the addition of a couple of words, you have summarized the landscape pretty much perfectly.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
*MEANING OF MMO
-Massively Multiplayer
-Online
this simply means a game which has a Persistent world, for large numbers of players to play together. All MMO share this common element. No Persistent World, no MMO.
there are many different sub genres of a MMO.
-------------------------------------------------------
*SUB GENRES OF MMO
-MMORPG- the most popular form of MMO. based off of Role Play Gaming.
-MMOFPS- a MMO based on FPS combat.
-MMORTS - a real time strategy game placed in a persistent game world for massive amount of players to interact.
-MMOVW- simply a Virtural game world. Think of it as a giant 3D chat room with 3D avatars. Playstation Home and Maidmarian and second life fit this.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Your bastardized view of what an mmo is dives deeply into disturbing. This homogenization of gaming is foolish and extremely unhealthy for the industry long term. I can only hope that people with your tastes fall into the minority down the road. More and more gamers seem to be opening their eyes as the danger in continuing down our current path becomes ever clearer.
"Mmo" and "lobby" should never even materialize in your head as a thought let alone be used in the same sentence. Shame!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
That point is the if i have to use my imagination to make it massive .. then there is no difference between a MMO and Diablo, or COD.
You can use your imagination to make any game with NPCs massive.
Disturbing? Just for the view of some random guy on the internet on GAMES? "Danger"? Danger of what? Danger of not being entertained?
Games boils down to personal preferences and what is fun. If devs make games i like, i play. Otherwise, i will go to other form of entertainment. It is that simple. Online ARPGs are fun for me, and many others (well D3 sold 10M, that said something, TL is popular, that said something). Those games (as well as others) are competing for my time & money just like MMOs.
I don't see why i shouldn't compare them as games and choose the ones i like.
I don't know if my tastes are in the minority .. but the games i like (diablo, torchlight, dishonor, wow,....) are popular.