I don't think it is resource well spent to make complex crafting in a combat centric game, and many MMOs are combat centric.
There are crafting focus games like Tales of the Desert.
EVE does it so well though. They have created the perfect environment for a symbiotic relationship between PVPers and PVEers. It is a great example of resources well spent.
So sorry, but I don't buy it. I know first hand that you are wrong.
Combat could always be better if it was the sole focus. Remember that. Jack of all trades is a master of none.
Fair enough. EVE's combat could certainly be more "hands on exciting" if you will.
A very in depth and informative review I read in '05 regarding EVE's combat explained it as being less the Han Solo type of flavour, and more the Captain Picard route. Sure, I would definitely prefer a more cockpit'ish type of combat (did I just say that, lol), but the bridge'ish setup (for me) is almost as satisfying.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
When I think of complex crafting, EVE isn't one of the games that comes to mind. It's pretty much just like the usual themepark crafting system - find an installment that's open, put in the ingredients and wait it out. Unless you mean complex = useful or complex = plugging in a lot of numbers, then I'd agree with it.
Complex crafting to me is like SWG or even EQ2/FFXIV as it's more than just the typical throw in items and hit a button to make the items.
But like others have said, there's for sure going to be more games that have in depth crafting. I'd say a good portion of games on the horizon has some form of it.
The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it. If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.
...snip
Wait, are you saying that you actually heard of someone leaving a game because they had to either search an auction house for crafted gear or pay someone for it?
Who are these people. Are they the ones telling us mmos are all about teamwork, grouping, and socialization but are ashamed to ask someone to make them something? Is it cleaner from the mob or dungeon boss rather than from a crafter's hand. Are they germaphobes lol
I've never heard of one person leaving a game because they had to buy crafted gear. If you don't craft you usually sell harvested materials to crafters and make back the cost of buying anything they sell.
Serious as a heart attack here - you really know someone that left a game because they would have had to buy crafted gear? There aren't that many games that even have crafted gear as the high end stuff. I don't fathom this, was the post a joke that passed over me. Sounds like craft-cism to me and I shant be party to it.
If all crafted gear is pretty trivial to buy off the auction house, then a game doesn't have much of a crafting system, so of course that's not going to inconvenience anyone--except, of course, for crafters who are looking for something substantial. Hence the title of this thread.
None of the games I've played that had a substantial crafting system (A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, and Uncharted Waters Online) even had an auction house. It's not that an auction house precludes serious crafting or vice versa. But everything being so easy to craft that it's pretty trivial to buy it off of someone else sure does.
I played Mortal Online and the crafting system was really intense. The time, effort and risk it took just to make some steel was pretty intense. Steel is one of the more popular ingredients for weapons. When the weapons were made you really didn't know the stats shown, you would have to "test" the weapon for damage. Finding the right recipe for bows was sought after and coveted by guilds. I remember having to sit in front of a buddy and have him shoot arrows at me to see how much damage I took.
I honestly doubt we'll see another game with crafting detailed and challenging.. EQ2's was fun, as was SWG.. Both were steps in the right direction, however both had some major mistakes as well.. From where I sit, more and more of this MMO genre just wants simple arcade hack and slash, and couldn't care less about fishing, cooking and crafting of any serious level.. As with another thread, a complex or serious crafting profession is more in line with creating a WORLD, not a game.. The content locus seem to prefer games moreso then worlds.. In fact, if done right, a solid mmorpg would be almost almost impossible for a locus to devour, because the world would be everchanging..
i hope we'll see another game with crafting that has the depth and complexity that SWG Pre-NGE had, but i doubt we'll see it for quite a while, as i don't see any games even in development at the moment, that will have anything even close to that level of crafting. The chances are that a none sandbox game couldnt really support the game mechanics needed for it. As for the complexity of Eve's crafting, not the same, Eves crafting has depth, but not really any degree of complexity, but even that is probably far more complex and involved than any of the various Themepark games out there.
I don't think it is resource well spent to make complex crafting in a combat centric game, and many MMOs are combat centric.
There are crafting focus games like Tales of the Desert.
EVE does it so well though. They have created the perfect environment for a symbiotic relationship between PVPers and PVEers. It is a great example of resources well spent.
So sorry, but I don't buy it. I know first hand that you are wrong.
Combat could always be better if it was the sole focus. Remember that. Jack of all trades is a master of none.
Yeh .. Eve has pretty boring combat. I play the trial for 21 days. Even STO is much better. I literally just sit there and let my ship go into range automatically and keep firing missiles .. instant win (pve missions). There is zero challenge, and no use of interesting skills.
That is the primary reason i don't play Eve. Boring combat.
The basic problem with crafting is that a large fraction of players don't like it. If every time they want better gear, they have to track down a crafter who can make it for them, they're likely to get annoyed, quit, and go play some other game where the best gear comes from mob drops or whatever.
...snip
Wait, are you saying that you actually heard of someone leaving a game because they had to either search an auction house for crafted gear or pay someone for it?
Who are these people. Are they the ones telling us mmos are all about teamwork, grouping, and socialization but are ashamed to ask someone to make them something? Is it cleaner from the mob or dungeon boss rather than from a crafter's hand. Are they germaphobes lol
I've never heard of one person leaving a game because they had to buy crafted gear. If you don't craft you usually sell harvested materials to crafters and make back the cost of buying anything they sell.
Serious as a heart attack here - you really know someone that left a game because they would have had to buy crafted gear? There aren't that many games that even have crafted gear as the high end stuff. I don't fathom this, was the post a joke that passed over me. Sounds like craft-cism to me and I shant be party to it.
If all crafted gear is pretty trivial to buy off the auction house, then a game doesn't have much of a crafting system, so of course that's not going to inconvenience anyone--except, of course, for crafters who are looking for something substantial. Hence the title of this thread.
None of the games I've played that had a substantial crafting system (A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, and Uncharted Waters Online) even had an auction house. It's not that an auction house precludes serious crafting or vice versa. But everything being so easy to craft that it's pretty trivial to buy it off of someone else sure does.
:@green, that was a major complaint about Istaria (then horizons, one of many) when it first came out. Adventurers were bored out of their skull.
Yes they could go and kill the ghost dragons, and golems and whatever but why? For what? What was their reward? There was not dropped loot, or coin, just crafting materials. It was a super pain to find a crafter that was willing to make it, negotiate a price, wait for him to make it, meet up with again to get it. Sometimes that took days to do.
No, just dropped crafting materials is IMO a very bad way to do it. You need something for the adventures.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Arcondo87 play Salem its plent complex....20 ore will yeld u 1 ingot, 2 IF your lucky. Skills are time consuming to lvl and certain things r difficult to build. Best sandbox i ever played
We probably need to define what is complex and what is tedious.....Gathering endless amounts of ore to do simple crafting isnt complex.....Complex probably borders more on players making things without recipes and experimenting with things they find in the game.
I hope so as it adds a nice layer of depth to a game. One click crafting may work for some games but I really have no interest in it and find it a cop-out. Why have crafting at all then? Oh because it adds something more to do? Exactly, so making the crafting more in depth goes even farther IMO. I can't see a downside.
EVE is not crafting, it's manufacturing. It suits EVE and is about production, not creation but it is not crafting.
FF14 has a crafting system that could become SWG level but it needs TLC. Well over half the classes in FF14 are crafting or gathering devoted and each class is unique, even if the way you level it isn't. Gathering in FF14 needs work, the RnG system for getting basic stuff like logs is frustrating. Add to that they don't have the stat dynamics and have even dumbed it down from the launch version, taking out +2 and +3 finds. It would need a development cycle or two to get it polished and add that sense of variet to individual items, the way SWG did but if there was a system out there already in play, FF14 has it.
The importance of crafting to the game is more of an issue. If it takes one step or 100 it does not matter if what you craft is no better than a drop. But yes I prefer complexity but as someone who is not a big crafter not too complex, a matter of taste I think.
I doubt crafting will ever be important in combat centric games .. just because of focus. I don't think many who are attracted to combat games want to spend a lot of time doing carpentry, or blacksmithing. In fact, in a game like WOW, blizz practically have to "bribe" players to max their trade skill sby offering perks (like special enchantment, or out right stat increase).
It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.
You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.
You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FoomerangIt doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.
You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.
You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.
I come from the mmo school of thought that the point of these games is to grow a community through multiple game systems. We've had this convo before. I knwo we don't see eye to eye on the subject.
Originally posted by FoomerangIt doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.
You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.
You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.
I come from the mmo school of thought that the point of these games is to grow a community through multiple game systems. We've had this convo before. I knwo we don't see eye to eye on the subject.
Yeh. And i come to realize that games are about good gameplay, and a single game does not need to have it all. And that therei s a community across games.
Frankly i care very little about a community on a single game, or single server. I prefer a game let me play with anyone (like asking a friend who is on SC2 now to join me in a D3 dungeon). I found restricting my interaction with a community on a single server/game very limiting.
I do not see a reason for that limit.
I also believe focus is where devs can make better games. Planetside 2 will not be as good if the devs try to do crafting or pve. Diablo will not be so good if it has branching dialgue and real story.
I suppose we disagree, and we vote with our wallets.
I don't understand the point in crafting (actually I do, as a non-combat activity). Thus I doubt there will be a need for elaborating such game aspects in the future. Especially with all those contradicting requirements/expectations different players have.
Let's face it. In a themepark MMO this is just a waste of dev and player time. With all those restrictions on tradeability it's mainly useful to the crafter himself. Additionally better equipment can usually be found while doing group content and pvp. Anything you can possibly sell for a profit is a nice perk, but it will not last forever (this is hardly the case because of a high competition between crafters).
I understand the rationale behind rising resource requirements for higher level crafting recipes. In the beginnings it might have been used to keep stuff rare (which doesn't work in an MMO environemnt in the long run). It was always a timesink. Later it turned more into a moneysink, which is a remedy for a big flaw. Namely being able to increase in-game wealth indefinitely (leading to mudflation).
How does crafting look like most of the time?
1) You have to acquire crafting recipes. 2) You collect ingredients 3) You craft the items for which you know the recipes (requires steps 1 & 2). 4) Repeat step 3 to increase your skill with the crafting profession and raw material gathering skills.
There is nothing creative in this process (except for trying to optimize the crafting process). You can't experiment (i.e. use alternative ingredients and see what happens then). You can't determine how the crafted item looks like.
The creators of MMOs used equipment as an additional motivational factor (carrot on a stick). By this they made crafting obsolete, especially since other in-game activities offer better rewards. Equipment doesn't really last a long time. After gaining a few levels you usually can throw away your old stuff. Why craft at all under such conditions?
If equipment would last longer it would help. Of course some players would start to moan that they don't get rewarded as often as they'd like for playing a game. Crafting doesn't really need to be complex or difficult or time consuming. It would suffice to make standard equipment (with the chance on a few extra traits while experimenting with ingredients). Other in-game activities should also give standard equipment as reward. Why not allow the players to design the looks for their items themselves? Fashion trends change over time. So players would be constantly engaged in crafting (at least the dedicated crafters). Trade restrictions are really getting ridiculous in those games as well.
Developers complain that they don't have the resources to create all the content that players crave for. Why not let the players care for such in-game aspects themselves?
I don't think it is resource well spent to make complex crafting in a combat centric game, and many MMOs are combat centric.
There are crafting focus games like Tales of the Desert.
EVE does it so well though. They have created the perfect environment for a symbiotic relationship between PVPers and PVEers. It is a great example of resources well spent.
So sorry, but I don't buy it. I know first hand that you are wrong.
To add to this, here are some stats from Eve: Over 9000 different "things" you can own, at least half of them are only player crafted, some take several days to build (Quick question to someone who knows: If all the required subcomponents plopped in your lap, how long does it take to build a Titan? I've been curious about this).
Now that pretty much every single MMO developer has dumbed down their products to the point that there is nothing left to be dumbed down anymore,we can say that MMO genre is dead.
and we can say long live MMORPGs.
Theres plenty of new MMORPGs coming where players can ,not just craft their characters but also craft the whole world with their hands.
Originally posted by Arezon Fallen Earth's crafting is pretty good. If you haven't tried it, you should.
Fallen Earth's crafting is far from complex. It is just simply a very long list of assembly recipes, no experimentation and resources are just about nodehunting. The crafting system is straightforward as it can be. I like it though, but it definately doesn't offer SWG complexity.
The placable harvesters in FE that can only be placed in PVP areas, is something that many exSWG crafters like the OP, wouldnt like at all.
Comments
Fair enough. EVE's combat could certainly be more "hands on exciting" if you will.
A very in depth and informative review I read in '05 regarding EVE's combat explained it as being less the Han Solo type of flavour, and more the Captain Picard route. Sure, I would definitely prefer a more cockpit'ish type of combat (did I just say that, lol), but the bridge'ish setup (for me) is almost as satisfying.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
When I think of complex crafting, EVE isn't one of the games that comes to mind. It's pretty much just like the usual themepark crafting system - find an installment that's open, put in the ingredients and wait it out. Unless you mean complex = useful or complex = plugging in a lot of numbers, then I'd agree with it.
Complex crafting to me is like SWG or even EQ2/FFXIV as it's more than just the typical throw in items and hit a button to make the items.
But like others have said, there's for sure going to be more games that have in depth crafting. I'd say a good portion of games on the horizon has some form of it.
If all crafted gear is pretty trivial to buy off the auction house, then a game doesn't have much of a crafting system, so of course that's not going to inconvenience anyone--except, of course, for crafters who are looking for something substantial. Hence the title of this thread.
None of the games I've played that had a substantial crafting system (A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, and Uncharted Waters Online) even had an auction house. It's not that an auction house precludes serious crafting or vice versa. But everything being so easy to craft that it's pretty trivial to buy it off of someone else sure does.
I played Mortal Online and the crafting system was really intense. The time, effort and risk it took just to make some steel was pretty intense. Steel is one of the more popular ingredients for weapons. When the weapons were made you really didn't know the stats shown, you would have to "test" the weapon for damage. Finding the right recipe for bows was sought after and coveted by guilds. I remember having to sit in front of a buddy and have him shoot arrows at me to see how much damage I took.
Too bad the game is cabbage.
Atitd is just as complicated. I think Istaria's is better (too bad we can't decorate houses).
Complex crafting was never an important thing in this industry, just a few games ever had it. I expect it will remain that way in the future.
Yeh .. Eve has pretty boring combat. I play the trial for 21 days. Even STO is much better. I literally just sit there and let my ship go into range automatically and keep firing missiles .. instant win (pve missions). There is zero challenge, and no use of interesting skills.
That is the primary reason i don't play Eve. Boring combat.
:@green, that was a major complaint about Istaria (then horizons, one of many) when it first came out. Adventurers were bored out of their skull.
Yes they could go and kill the ghost dragons, and golems and whatever but why? For what? What was their reward? There was not dropped loot, or coin, just crafting materials. It was a super pain to find a crafter that was willing to make it, negotiate a price, wait for him to make it, meet up with again to get it. Sometimes that took days to do.
No, just dropped crafting materials is IMO a very bad way to do it. You need something for the adventures.
Ditto.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
We probably need to define what is complex and what is tedious.....Gathering endless amounts of ore to do simple crafting isnt complex.....Complex probably borders more on players making things without recipes and experimenting with things they find in the game.
EVE is not crafting, it's manufacturing. It suits EVE and is about production, not creation but it is not crafting.
FF14 has a crafting system that could become SWG level but it needs TLC. Well over half the classes in FF14 are crafting or gathering devoted and each class is unique, even if the way you level it isn't. Gathering in FF14 needs work, the RnG system for getting basic stuff like logs is frustrating. Add to that they don't have the stat dynamics and have even dumbed it down from the launch version, taking out +2 and +3 finds. It would need a development cycle or two to get it polished and add that sense of variet to individual items, the way SWG did but if there was a system out there already in play, FF14 has it.
I doubt crafting will ever be important in combat centric games .. just because of focus. I don't think many who are attracted to combat games want to spend a lot of time doing carpentry, or blacksmithing. In fact, in a game like WOW, blizz practically have to "bribe" players to max their trade skill sby offering perks (like special enchantment, or out right stat increase).
It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can have both complex crafting and a deep combat system. The result would be a more diversified community.
You *can* but why should you? I doubt many of the combat centric player would spend much time in complex crafting. And devs who don't focus may not be successful in either combat nor crafting.
You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.
You don't have to cater to everyone in a single game. And do we really need a more diversified community? The "community" of gamer is already so huge that you will never be short of people to play with.
I come from the mmo school of thought that the point of these games is to grow a community through multiple game systems. We've had this convo before. I knwo we don't see eye to eye on the subject.
Yeh. And i come to realize that games are about good gameplay, and a single game does not need to have it all. And that therei s a community across games.
Frankly i care very little about a community on a single game, or single server. I prefer a game let me play with anyone (like asking a friend who is on SC2 now to join me in a D3 dungeon). I found restricting my interaction with a community on a single server/game very limiting.
I do not see a reason for that limit.
I also believe focus is where devs can make better games. Planetside 2 will not be as good if the devs try to do crafting or pve. Diablo will not be so good if it has branching dialgue and real story.
I suppose we disagree, and we vote with our wallets.
I don't understand the point in crafting (actually I do, as a non-combat activity). Thus I doubt there will be a need for elaborating such game aspects in the future. Especially with all those contradicting requirements/expectations different players have.
Let's face it. In a themepark MMO this is just a waste of dev and player time. With all those restrictions on tradeability it's mainly useful to the crafter himself. Additionally better equipment can usually be found while doing group content and pvp. Anything you can possibly sell for a profit is a nice perk, but it will not last forever (this is hardly the case because of a high competition between crafters).
I understand the rationale behind rising resource requirements for higher level crafting recipes. In the beginnings it might have been used to keep stuff rare (which doesn't work in an MMO environemnt in the long run). It was always a timesink. Later it turned more into a moneysink, which is a remedy for a big flaw. Namely being able to increase in-game wealth indefinitely (leading to mudflation).
How does crafting look like most of the time?
1) You have to acquire crafting recipes.
2) You collect ingredients
3) You craft the items for which you know the recipes (requires steps 1 & 2).
4) Repeat step 3 to increase your skill with the crafting profession and raw material gathering skills.
There is nothing creative in this process (except for trying to optimize the crafting process). You can't experiment (i.e. use alternative ingredients and see what happens then). You can't determine how the crafted item looks like.
The creators of MMOs used equipment as an additional motivational factor (carrot on a stick). By this they made crafting obsolete, especially since other in-game activities offer better rewards. Equipment doesn't really last a long time. After gaining a few levels you usually can throw away your old stuff. Why craft at all under such conditions?
If equipment would last longer it would help. Of course some players would start to moan that they don't get rewarded as often as they'd like for playing a game. Crafting doesn't really need to be complex or difficult or time consuming. It would suffice to make standard equipment (with the chance on a few extra traits while experimenting with ingredients). Other in-game activities should also give standard equipment as reward. Why not allow the players to design the looks for their items themselves? Fashion trends change over time. So players would be constantly engaged in crafting (at least the dedicated crafters). Trade restrictions are really getting ridiculous in those games as well.
Developers complain that they don't have the resources to create all the content that players crave for. Why not let the players care for such in-game aspects themselves?
To add to this, here are some stats from Eve: Over 9000 different "things" you can own, at least half of them are only player crafted, some take several days to build (Quick question to someone who knows: If all the required subcomponents plopped in your lap, how long does it take to build a Titan? I've been curious about this).
Where's the any key?
Will we ever see complex crafting again?
Yes.
Now that pretty much every single MMO developer has dumbed down their products to the point that there is nothing left to be dumbed down anymore,we can say that MMO genre is dead.
and we can say long live MMORPGs.
Theres plenty of new MMORPGs coming where players can ,not just craft their characters but also craft the whole world with their hands.
Let's internet
last 24 hours to jump in in the alpha of GreedMonger scheduled for April 2013.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/greed-monger-a-crafting-focused-sandbox-mmorpg
If you are looking for a crafting mmorpg , this is the way to go *smile*
Fallen Earth's crafting is far from complex. It is just simply a very long list of assembly recipes, no experimentation and resources are just about nodehunting. The crafting system is straightforward as it can be. I like it though, but it definately doesn't offer SWG complexity.
The placable harvesters in FE that can only be placed in PVP areas, is something that many exSWG crafters like the OP, wouldnt like at all.