That's why we hear sooooo much about 2d games. Dude, I can't name one 2d game. I got a Santa list of 3d in my head. Why? No one likes 2d so we never talk about them.
Go on. Name the best 2d games in existance.
You must be so young to not be able to name a 2d game.....
That's why we hear sooooo much about 2d games. Dude, I can't name one 2d game. I got a Santa list of 3d in my head. Why? No one likes 2d so we never talk about them.
Go on. Name the best 2d games in existance.
Tecmo Super Bowl, Infantry, Europa Universalis II, Super Mario World
Or does Infantry no longer count as "in existence" after SOE pulled the plug?
Originally posted by wordiz I was just thinking last night that I'd take a game with Link to the Past graphics if it offered all the right elements. Graphics killed the MMO star.
Sure. A lot of people would take dated graphics if the game offered exactly the gameplay that they were looking for.
But dated graphics doesn't make it more likely that a game will offer the gameplay that you're looking for. It's not like 2D graphics enable you to magically create the game mechanics that everyone wants even though lots of different people want mutually exclusive things.
A 2D game that you dislike isn't any better than a 3D game that you dislike. (In fairness, it's not any worse, either.)
That's why we hear sooooo much about 2d games. Dude, I can't name one 2d game. I got a Santa list of 3d in my head. Why? No one likes 2d so we never talk about them.
Go on. Name the best 2d games in existance.
Chrono Trigger, The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, Professor Layton and the Curious Village, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Ghost Trick, Rhythm Heaven, the Blackwell games, Resonance, Primordia, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, Bastion, Botanicula, Braid, Gemini Rue, Hotline Miami, To The Moon, Aquaria, The Binding of Isaac, Cave Story, LIMBO, Machinarium, the three first Monkey Island games, Mark of the Ninja, Saira, the Knytt games, Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV... are some of my favorites.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
I've been craving a good 2d mmorpg for like 8 years now. Too lazy to go more in depth, but 2d games have better role play value and are just more immersive for me. Plus they could be filled with a crazy content and huge persistant world that 3d engines cant handle. For my 3d-actiony fix, that every new mmo seems to be aiming for, I can just play counter strike.
It is not graphics that kill mmo's but rather lack of creative content. There is no excuse as to why a game can not have both good graphics AND great content. I would not stand for there to be a lack of either in any MMO I might play.
That's why we hear sooooo much about 2d games. Dude, I can't name one 2d game. I got a Santa list of 3d in my head. Why? No one likes 2d so we never talk about them.
Go on. Name the best 2d games in existance.
Look up any top 100 best games anywhere and you'll find plenty of 2d games outranking most modern 3d games.
The most recent i've played being Divine Divinity, which was without a doubt one of the best games i've ever played, and probably the best i've played in 2012. It made PC gamers top 100 this year, which is what made me look into it.
I'm also currently playing through the original fallouts, which thus far appear to have a lot more depth than F3 or NV did.
Why do people consider 2d graphics bad or dated? There are new and old 2d games with varying graphical quality. I actually miss all the good 2d games they used to make...
Oh well. I guess I have a few decades of 2d game releases to live on. Would be nice to see more recent 2d releases with actual depth. Most of what we get now is angry birds garbage.
That's why we hear sooooo much about 2d games. Dude, I can't name one 2d game. I got a Santa list of 3d in my head. Why? No one likes 2d so we never talk about them.
Go on. Name the best 2d games in existance.
runescape or what is now known as runescape classic, diablo, icewind dale..
OP makes some great points, however a problem today with learning curves and such is how easy it is to gain knowledge of the games and how fast people make wikis explaining everything since they picked apart the files into tiny pieces. The color palette is something I really disagree with, IMO most games are way way too colorful. Color needs to be there but not everywhere smeared like a kids painting but rather well placed. Opinions I guess.
As far as immersion goes, I actually can find myself more immersed in a game of ADOM or Dwarf Fortress than I do in the best looking games. Imagination and good gameplay used to be all you needed when gaming. Not that I dislike new 3d graphics. I just feel like the actual quality of gameplay has gone down hill. Just look at what happened to tactical shooters. We went from CS to Black Ops 2.
2D?...no thanks. Even fixed camera 3D games (like Diablo) piss me off. I'll suffer the banality of any WoW clone before i go back to 2D games.
I'm with you. Sorry, I have a new PC for a reason. Sound and graphics, baby! Still no excuse for a 3D game to have shallow gameplay though, I'll give you that.
Originally posted by wordiz I was just thinking last night that I'd take a game with Link to the Past graphics if it offered all the right elements. Graphics killed the MMO star.
Sure. A lot of people would take dated graphics if the game offered exactly the gameplay that they were looking for.
But dated graphics doesn't make it more likely that a game will offer the gameplay that you're looking for. It's not like 2D graphics enable you to magically create the game mechanics that everyone wants even though lots of different people want mutually exclusive things.
A 2D game that you dislike isn't any better than a 3D game that you dislike. (In fairness, it's not any worse, either.)
I think im lost on how your assessing the 2D versus 3D game building. I have dabbled with building both (total novice) and it would seem to me drawing in a 2d space is a huge time saver as compared to building a model, animating it and than slapping textures on it, also if you throw armor on it are you going to have those little graphic spikes shooting out from bad joint placement. Where as 2D games are draw, draw armor, done, the hardest part was getting the armor piece to line up with the character while moving.
Also with 2D, we are only looking at 2 axes where as 3D has 3 axes. The complications from adding a third axes we can assume make the game 33% harder to make, or maybe 50% depending on your point of view there. Also with 2D games you can almost completely forget about physics, or if you have physics you only have to work in 2D.
In general it seems to me that a 2D game just seems like a much easier game to design, draw, and program, but that is all based on my very weak experience trying to make indy games.
I've tried many 2D MMO's in my time, and I agree, they're usually very nice to look at, but unfortunately are always dipping in quality of content and gameplay. If a developer put out a modern 2D MMO with the features that are expected in the genre, and content that doesn't resort to grinding, then I'd definitely be inclined to give it a try.
Unfortunately, as others have said, there is still a definite immersion factor that comes from 3D games that 2D games will likely never be capable of emulating, but for pure fun factor, I think they are still competitors.
The last 2D MMO I was actually looking forward to was Tales of Eternia Online way back like 8 years ago maybe. I was saddened that it was only released in Japan. But that was likely for the best as it only lasted for a year or so and was shut down.
Originally posted by wordiz I was just thinking last night that I'd take a game with Link to the Past graphics if it offered all the right elements. Graphics killed the MMO star.
Sure. A lot of people would take dated graphics if the game offered exactly the gameplay that they were looking for.
But dated graphics doesn't make it more likely that a game will offer the gameplay that you're looking for. It's not like 2D graphics enable you to magically create the game mechanics that everyone wants even though lots of different people want mutually exclusive things.
A 2D game that you dislike isn't any better than a 3D game that you dislike. (In fairness, it's not any worse, either.)
I think im lost on how your assessing the 2D versus 3D game building. I have dabbled with building both (total novice) and it would seem to me drawing in a 2d space is a huge time saver as compared to building a model, animating it and than slapping textures on it, also if you throw armor on it are you going to have those little graphic spikes shooting out from bad joint placement. Where as 2D games are draw, draw armor, done, the hardest part was getting the armor piece to line up with the character while moving.
Also with 2D, we are only looking at 2 axes where as 3D has 3 axes. The complications from adding a third axes we can assume make the game 33% harder to make, or maybe 50% depending on your point of view there. Also with 2D games you can almost completely forget about physics, or if you have physics you only have to work in 2D.
In general it seems to me that a 2D game just seems like a much easier game to design, draw, and program, but that is all based on my very weak experience trying to make indy games.
They are hard in different ways, the content isn't the biggest issue with games but the coding and getting investors to understand why this or that would be a great idea. Also you cannot measure how hard it is to make something by how many axis it has.
Also what you have been doing isn't indie games I would bet but rather played around with it as a hobby, which is wastly different from actually pushing one out and supporting it. Also there are plenty of good 3D engines but lesser of 2D engines (which still have everything you would want out of it). Either way I think you underestimate how much work goes into making a game, especially when it has to not only be multiplayer but actually on a massive scale as in MMORPGs.
I'm a guy and I love this idea. But please, not like Wakfu (that is turn based). Needs to be bird view of course. Don't want an Awesomenauts mmo or Maple Story again. I want something new and innovative.
BUT, I believe this to be for console games. This is a perfect oppurtunity for the MMO market to shine in consoles. Especially now with Wii U's controller video screen. In a 2D game, you can't dodge much though, or you can dodge too much. It depends. It would need an extraordinary class designer.
I will still play 3D games though. And I believe 3D games can still be cute and funny, ask Nintendo.
No.1 rule in mmos is not to have a lot of instances. If I see a 2D game with lots of instances, that will be a turn off. They need to make BIG maps. And convincing before-zone-line map tiles.
I need to point out though that I'm a painter, maybe it's just in my genes that I like colorful things so much. But as a painter, I can say that it is much more expensive to hire a painter to do the world, at least here in the West. 3D models are cheaper. This is my knowledge of indies though. Even a SNES Zelda style character can cost you 4 shirts if you need all views. Then obviously more frames is needed. There are those that do these for free, but they would in no way give a developer a help if they don't know they will get money for such a huge task. I've seen people do character requests for free, but they only do one or two and that will make the game look unbalanced in graphics.
How about a content-rich game with no graphics at all?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
You must be so young to not be able to name a 2d game.....
Tecmo Super Bowl, Infantry, Europa Universalis II, Super Mario World
Or does Infantry no longer count as "in existence" after SOE pulled the plug?
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Sure. A lot of people would take dated graphics if the game offered exactly the gameplay that they were looking for.
But dated graphics doesn't make it more likely that a game will offer the gameplay that you're looking for. It's not like 2D graphics enable you to magically create the game mechanics that everyone wants even though lots of different people want mutually exclusive things.
A 2D game that you dislike isn't any better than a 3D game that you dislike. (In fairness, it's not any worse, either.)
op i dun think u understand why games suck these days
Chrono Trigger, The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, Professor Layton and the Curious Village, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Ghost Trick, Rhythm Heaven, the Blackwell games, Resonance, Primordia, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, Bastion, Botanicula, Braid, Gemini Rue, Hotline Miami, To The Moon, Aquaria, The Binding of Isaac, Cave Story, LIMBO, Machinarium, the three first Monkey Island games, Mark of the Ninja, Saira, the Knytt games, Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV... are some of my favorites.
<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>
I've been craving a good 2d mmorpg for like 8 years now. Too lazy to go more in depth, but 2d games have better role play value and are just more immersive for me. Plus they could be filled with a crazy content and huge persistant world that 3d engines cant handle. For my 3d-actiony fix, that every new mmo seems to be aiming for, I can just play counter strike.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Look up any top 100 best games anywhere and you'll find plenty of 2d games outranking most modern 3d games.
The most recent i've played being Divine Divinity, which was without a doubt one of the best games i've ever played, and probably the best i've played in 2012. It made PC gamers top 100 this year, which is what made me look into it.
I'm also currently playing through the original fallouts, which thus far appear to have a lot more depth than F3 or NV did.
Why do people consider 2d graphics bad or dated? There are new and old 2d games with varying graphical quality. I actually miss all the good 2d games they used to make...
Oh well. I guess I have a few decades of 2d game releases to live on. Would be nice to see more recent 2d releases with actual depth. Most of what we get now is angry birds garbage.
runescape or what is now known as runescape classic, diablo, icewind dale..
As far as immersion goes, I actually can find myself more immersed in a game of ADOM or Dwarf Fortress than I do in the best looking games. Imagination and good gameplay used to be all you needed when gaming. Not that I dislike new 3d graphics. I just feel like the actual quality of gameplay has gone down hill. Just look at what happened to tactical shooters. We went from CS to Black Ops 2.
But can I build a house in them? Probably on them, or of them. Plus, they tend to be black and white, so you missed a few points.
I'm with you. Sorry, I have a new PC for a reason. Sound and graphics, baby! Still no excuse for a 3D game to have shallow gameplay though, I'll give you that.
I think im lost on how your assessing the 2D versus 3D game building. I have dabbled with building both (total novice) and it would seem to me drawing in a 2d space is a huge time saver as compared to building a model, animating it and than slapping textures on it, also if you throw armor on it are you going to have those little graphic spikes shooting out from bad joint placement. Where as 2D games are draw, draw armor, done, the hardest part was getting the armor piece to line up with the character while moving.
Also with 2D, we are only looking at 2 axes where as 3D has 3 axes. The complications from adding a third axes we can assume make the game 33% harder to make, or maybe 50% depending on your point of view there. Also with 2D games you can almost completely forget about physics, or if you have physics you only have to work in 2D.
In general it seems to me that a 2D game just seems like a much easier game to design, draw, and program, but that is all based on my very weak experience trying to make indy games.
I've tried many 2D MMO's in my time, and I agree, they're usually very nice to look at, but unfortunately are always dipping in quality of content and gameplay. If a developer put out a modern 2D MMO with the features that are expected in the genre, and content that doesn't resort to grinding, then I'd definitely be inclined to give it a try.
Unfortunately, as others have said, there is still a definite immersion factor that comes from 3D games that 2D games will likely never be capable of emulating, but for pure fun factor, I think they are still competitors.
The last 2D MMO I was actually looking forward to was Tales of Eternia Online way back like 8 years ago maybe. I was saddened that it was only released in Japan. But that was likely for the best as it only lasted for a year or so and was shut down.
Housing is something I really miss from the older games as well.
They are hard in different ways, the content isn't the biggest issue with games but the coding and getting investors to understand why this or that would be a great idea. Also you cannot measure how hard it is to make something by how many axis it has.
Also what you have been doing isn't indie games I would bet but rather played around with it as a hobby, which is wastly different from actually pushing one out and supporting it. Also there are plenty of good 3D engines but lesser of 2D engines (which still have everything you would want out of it). Either way I think you underestimate how much work goes into making a game, especially when it has to not only be multiplayer but actually on a massive scale as in MMORPGs.
I'm a guy and I love this idea. But please, not like Wakfu (that is turn based). Needs to be bird view of course. Don't want an Awesomenauts mmo or Maple Story again. I want something new and innovative.
BUT, I believe this to be for console games. This is a perfect oppurtunity for the MMO market to shine in consoles. Especially now with Wii U's controller video screen. In a 2D game, you can't dodge much though, or you can dodge too much. It depends. It would need an extraordinary class designer.
I will still play 3D games though. And I believe 3D games can still be cute and funny, ask Nintendo.
No.1 rule in mmos is not to have a lot of instances. If I see a 2D game with lots of instances, that will be a turn off. They need to make BIG maps. And convincing before-zone-line map tiles.
I need to point out though that I'm a painter, maybe it's just in my genes that I like colorful things so much. But as a painter, I can say that it is much more expensive to hire a painter to do the world, at least here in the West. 3D models are cheaper. This is my knowledge of indies though. Even a SNES Zelda style character can cost you 4 shirts if you need all views. Then obviously more frames is needed. There are those that do these for free, but they would in no way give a developer a help if they don't know they will get money for such a huge task. I've seen people do character requests for free, but they only do one or two and that will make the game look unbalanced in graphics.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
For that there is always MUDs.
http://mudstats.com I guess is a good site if anyone wish find one, personally trying out Aardwolf.