MMORPGs are now played by the mainstream masses who routinely communicate electronically as briefly as possible. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with Sandboxes nor solo play nor any of the other tired old cliched mmorpg.com forum reasons. It's just 2013. You're looking for sophisticated game-design reasons for your relative lack of enjoyment when all that has happened is that games, gamers and society have just evolved rather quickly.
Oh, but it has to do with sandbox/themepark and group/solo play. It has everything to do with it. How else do you think the genre became mainstream? Did it magically happen over night? No. It happened by making features and mechanics increasingly more accessible to a larger audience. Which is not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's costed us a lot of things those of us who played older MMORPGs enjoy.
MMOs in the past were group-oriented. MMOs today are solo-centric. We had incentive to group in the past, it was more pleasant, and we could achieve a lot more as well. Today, grouping is less efficient than solo play. The need to interact with other players is not present,players are self-sufficient, best gear is through monster loot rather than crafted, etc. Heck, grouping is less rewarding than solo-play because you'll have less gold and items at the end of the run. Players only care about their own advancement and couldn't care less about others.
I'm not looking for a "sophisticated game-design reason for my relative lack of enjoyment". Games have changed their design completely, that's the reality. If you like this design, good for you. I prefer the old one and I find that it's a shame so few MMOs try to bring it back.
A couple things, MMO's back then didn't give "incentive" to group. They required that you group. MMO's these days give you incentive...things like faster exp gain, safer..don't have to worry about dying.(as much) The option to go to areas with "elite" mobs or something similar. That would be incentive.
I also disagree with your assesment of newer MMO's being "solo-centric"...you have the option to solo while lvling...Dungeons/pvp/raids all still require groups. The genre became mainstream because a popular franchise at the time (warcraft) was made into an mmo that didn't rigidly enforce the need for a full group with tank and healer to kill rats. You could actually play at your own pace. Furthermore the total time it took to reach cap wasn't anywhere near as long. The NEED to group with others is still there...just not during lvling...instead you have the OPTION to group. And don't spread lies..in now way shape or form is lvling in a group inferior to lvling solo.
I said incentive because it depends on the MMO. UO and SWG allowed for a bit more solo-play (but still had features to maintain an active community) whereas other old MMOs like EQ and FFXI were closer to force-grouping. I was just speaking in general terms. The 'incentive' given by the current MMORPGs to group is far too weak to outweight the cons (less loot and gold, not everyone is on the same quests, etc). Solo players don't really have any issue surviving the normal mobs encounter either (or elite for that matter).
Current MMORPGs are solo-centric. The mentality of these MMOs is too focused on 'You' rather than your group. The addition of PUGs simply pushed that further by turning other players into "tools" provided by the game to further advance your character until you finally run out of content. There is no need to socialize with your "group" when it will dissolve as soon as the raid is over. You could play with NPCs and you'd have the same result. That's why they are solo-centric. Your advancement is the only thing that matters, the rest is irrelevant.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour I remember when the OP was a SWTOR fanatic.
Was never a fanatic about anything, people thought the game would be horrible, I still think its a good game and lasted me longer then GW2 did simply finishing the stories, but again, both GW2 and SWTOR are great GAMES, but they aren't great MMOs.
It really is based more around a community, and one that matters. People saying that the old games were great back then but they aren't good now probably haven't played them. SWG preNGE was a fantastic game. The level of community interaction was amazing on many levels that is extremely rare to find today.
It wasn't about sandbox elements specifically, it was about variety. If you really want to match up other MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 and TSW and WAR and TERA, what you will notice is that they all truly lack variety.
But its true, its the players who dictate the kind of variety they want. It will likely be another few years before we see any kind of change in that avenue.
MMORPGs are now played by the mainstream masses who routinely communicate electronically as briefly as possible. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with Sandboxes nor solo play nor any of the other tired old cliched mmorpg.com forum reasons. It's just 2013. You're looking for sophisticated game-design reasons for your relative lack of enjoyment when all that has happened is that games, gamers and society have just evolved rather quickly.
Oh, but it has to do with sandbox/themepark and group/solo play. It has everything to do with it. How else do you think the genre became mainstream? Did it magically happen over night? No. It happened by making features and mechanics increasingly more accessible to a larger audience. Which is not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's costed us a lot of things those of us who played older MMORPGs enjoy.
MMOs in the past were group-oriented. MMOs today are solo-centric. We had incentive to group in the past, it was more pleasant, and we could achieve a lot more as well. Today, grouping is less efficient than solo play. The need to interact with other players is not present,players are self-sufficient, best gear is through monster loot rather than crafted, etc. Heck, grouping is less rewarding than solo-play because you'll have less gold and items at the end of the run. Players only care about their own advancement and couldn't care less about others.
I'm not looking for a "sophisticated game-design reason for my relative lack of enjoyment". Games have changed their design completely, that's the reality. If you like this design, good for you. I prefer the old one and I find that it's a shame so few MMOs try to bring it back.
If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.
I know that it's more popular to say that the companies, especially the large ones that produce AAA titles, are motivated by greed and everything they do comes from that. There is maybe something to that, but a lot of the things that now appeal to the masses weren't invented to attract more people--that happened independently and had everything to do with video games in general and MMOs specifically just becoming a mainstream form of entertainment.
It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.
Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.
What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.
I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.
You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.
MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Iselin ...since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999...
Your first MMO was a very solo friendly MMO. So you like solo friendly games. No big mystery there. That's all you really had to say. The OP suggests he likes apples and you, et. al., are here arguing that oranges are better.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Iselin ...since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999...
Your first MMO was a very solo friendly MMO. So you like solo friendly games. No big mystery there. That's all you really had to say. The OP suggests he likes apples and you, et. al., are here arguing that oranges are better.
Hmm. Asheron's Call solo friendly? You must have been a Life Mage draining mobs through walls
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?
When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?
When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?
When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?
When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?
When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?
When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?
When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?
When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?
When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?
When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?
What happened to those times?
WoW happened. A new generation of players that feel they are entitled to win just because they logged in happened. Suits started making development decisions happened.
...When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over...
This is the primary reason why MMOs today quickly tank.
No time to chat. Must rush to the next quest. They are the bulk of xp and rewards. Quest Hubs killed MMOs. Vanguard's slow death is not because of framerate, nor system specs, nor occasional crashes, nor unfinished content. Friendship bonds did not form because players rushed from quest to quest.
That isn't why my guild and I quit playing. We didn't know each other when the game started, became friends and formed a guild. We stuck around for about 8 months or so with hopes that SOE would fix the issues but they took too long and we eventually left because of the bugs.
But I will say that what you say is true. Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community. Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre. WoW, the most successful MMO made has done more to dumb down the genre and playerbase than anything else. Not trolling, just my honest option, if I offended anyone... I don't care.
But I will say that what you say is true. Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community. Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.
Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.
It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
But I will say that what you say is true. Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community. Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.
Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.
It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.
They really need to put a "LIKE" system on this forum, it would stop a bunch of posts that just say "yeah, I agree!"
Guess what though, its not that the times have changes, its the people who changed.
If you go back and replay all those 'awesome' games, you'll see that there is hardly anything awesome about them besides your memories.
The only reason they seemed awsome back in the day, was because thay were the best there was at the time.
Every one in gaming has been spoiled in one way or another. The go back to that same old game simply does not make a valid argument.
Times has certainly changed, obviously so do gamers but not all. In my gamers expectations I have not changed much, I still expect a MMORPG to deliver me a more virtual game world then the online combat games we get delivered. And while occasionally I enjoy some of today's MMORPG, they still are far to limited and bring forth a rush mentality among many players I encounter in those games.
Sure allot of things have been made better/finetuned, but also allot of things are missing from most common A-Tittle MMORPG's
I will admit that Star Wars Galaxies has spoiled me allot and is the main reason why most of today's MMO's feel so incredible limited and lifeless. While meridian59 was my first MMORPG even though I was completely unknown with the term MMORPG up untill EQ, yet also dabbeled in UO. But SWG made me fall in "gamerslove" with this genre due to the freedom the game provided.
I already play and enjoy limited games in other genre's. MMORPG was the game genre that truly gone beyond what I already played. Yet most of today's MMO's deliver the same type of gameplay singleplayer or multiplayer games offer..
nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
Some people consider MMORPG to be more then "just a game" because of what we had and perhaps like me already enjoying plenty of other genre games.
OP: So I understand exactly what it is you're saying.
Originally posted by dumpcat Yes OP I remember SWG...
I think it was more then just SWG and UO, even games like CoH and FE had good things going for them in terms of community, socializing, and in some cases grouping.
Originally posted by dumpcat Yes OP I remember SWG...
I think it was more then just SWG and UO, even games like CoH and FE had good things going for them in terms of community, socializing, and in some cases grouping.
FE had a ton of hype both before and after release. To me it looked like it was going to be a major hit. I've never figured out what caused its fall from fame. It seems to have gotten shoved to the back of the closet and forgotten.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Friendship=long sub.i stuck in daoc eq and wow way longer because of this.when wow introducwd standing in a city and click to join i left and never looked baxk
But I will say that what you say is true. Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community. Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre.
Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.
It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.
I didn't say it was a plot. Blizzard saw an opportunity to make a game that the casual gamers could play and realized that there were more of them than the hard core players. More players means more money. It was a good business decision on their part. A good business decision on their part equals the dumbed down, no life, no community games that we have to choose from today.
I never said that Blizzard intended or planned that things would go this way. They happened. Blizzard started the trend and until a game comes out that breaks this mold and becomes successful, we will continue to have games developed that have no sole or sense of community. The trend started with Blizzard so, it's their fault.
besides, I NEVER waited 4 hours for a group that lasted 20 minutes in EQ. NEVER. I think the longest I ever waited was 10. If you are decent at your job, your name gets out and you will be wanted in groups. I would log in and have tells asking me if i had a group yet a lot of the time. I was an Iksar Monk and was pretty good at pulling in those days. That was before the tank had to pull, probably before your time. I set the pace for the entire group, and would train others that tried to infringe on my camp. Ah, the good old days, again, you probably have no idea what a train is. And no I ain't talking the choo choo type.
If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.
It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.
Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.
What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.
I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.
You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.
MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.
I was there as well (UO, and FFXI however), but perhaps not from the same perspective. I used to play mostly as a dedicated crafter and saw my purpose as crafter continuously diminish over time as loot-based items became more interesting than crafted items.
It's true that a lot of veterans have asked for many changes (corpse runs), but things like instant travel and pugs didn't come out purely because of veterans. They came when the genre was already "mainstream", and this mainstream audience has continuously asked for faster access to every feature or mechanic since.
Whether old features were removed for good reasons or not is debatable. There are pros and cons to everything, just like there are for the current MMOs features. Older MMOs features created a more community-driven MMORPGs were as current MMORPGs are more solo-driven. Gamers who liked community-driven MMORPGs may like the older features and vice-versa.
As far as your solution to soloing vs. grouping, I don't think it would solve the issue. For one, DE groups in GW2 are groups of individual players that don't even bother interacting with each others. Classes are also too independant to make teamwork more valuable.
Basically what we're asking is for one or two (playable) MMO to go back to the old roots and offer something different from the current crops of WoW-like MMORPGs. There are definitively some issues that needs to be addressed, but I don't think the current mechanics of current MMORPGs is the way to go in those cases (grouping and crafting comes to mind). Less focus vertical progression would be a great start for one, but there's so much to say to go on.
I'll disagree with you that MMOs in 2013 are better than what existed in the past. Obviously I'm a little biased because the main purpose that brought me to MMOs to begin with was taken away (Crafting) but nonetheless, the older MMOs felt a lot more like Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs than the MMOs in 2013 which plays more like Single Player Online RPGs with Multiplayer.
If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.
It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.
Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.
What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.
I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.
You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.
MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.
I was there as well (UO, and FFXI however), but perhaps not from the same perspective. I used to play mostly as a dedicated crafter and saw my purpose as crafter continuously diminish over time as loot-based items became more interesting than crafted items.
It's true that a lot of veterans have asked for many changes (corpse runs), but things like instant travel and pugs didn't come out purely because of veterans. They came when the genre was already "mainstream", and this mainstream audience has continuously asked for faster access to every feature or mechanic since.
Whether old features were removed for good reasons or not is debatable. There are pros and cons to everything, just like there are for the current MMOs features. Older MMOs features created a more community-driven MMORPGs were as current MMORPGs are more solo-driven. Gamers who liked community-driven MMORPGs may like the older features and vice-versa.
As far as your solution to soloing vs. grouping, I don't think it would solve the issue. For one, DE groups in GW2 are groups of individual players that don't even bother interacting with each others. Classes are also too independant to make teamwork more valuable.
Basically what we're asking is for one or two (playable) MMO to go back to the old roots and offer something different from the current crops of WoW-like MMORPGs. There are definitively some issues that needs to be addressed, but I don't think the current mechanics of current MMORPGs is the way to go in those cases (grouping and crafting comes to mind). Less focus vertical progression would be a great start for one, but there's so much to say to go on.
I'll disagree with you that MMOs in 2013 are better than what existed in the past. Obviously I'm a little biased because the main purpose that brought me to MMOs to begin with was taken away (Crafting) but nonetheless, the older MMOs felt a lot more like Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs than the MMOs in 2013 which plays more like Single Player Online RPGs with Multiplayer.
I appreciate your point of view (and kudos to you for disagreeing in a rational well-written way) and you're absolutely right: we have very different perspectives. I'm all about exploring, adventuring and progressing. My lack of interest in crafting and housing is right down there with fishing and pet collecting: to me they're optional side activities that bore me to death. The things I enjoy doing in MMOs all existed in the basic original D&D rulesets and, almost 40 years later, this is still what attracts me to the genre.
Having said that, I too expected MMOs to have evolved in a more inclusive way where alternate game-play styles were also accomodated. But the industry moved in a different direction--a direction that reflects modern social trends where its all about the quick fix and the briefest possible interaction with others.
Although its rather pointless to get involved in a chicken or egg argument about why MMOs evolved the way they have, I don't think your idea that shallow casual gameplay was created by the companies to attract and cater to the mainstream is historically acurate. I remember too well the complaints by the original MMORPG gamers about things such as too much wasted downtime forming groups and waiting for the AFK and competitive rare-spawn mob tagging, to blame more solo play opportunities and instancing of mobs in high-demand on the new crop of mainstream casuals: we wanted changes to be made and the industry solved our "problems" in their own ways. Were they solved the best way possible? Maybe not, but the point is that they were responding to what we, the original, early-adopting MMOers wanted.
I didn't mention GW2's DEs as an example of excellence, just as an example of a group of developers understanding the real problem and trying to address it. What is this "real problem?" Quite simply it's down-time and delays. Gamers have real lives that limit and interrupt their play time. They always have and they always will. And yet the vast majority of developers ignore that.
I believe that people really and truly would love to group up, synergize abilities and accomplish things together. That was the appeal in P&P D&D in the 70s and is still the appeal today. So knowing that, why in hell do developers still insist in programming activities that are either solo or that require an exact number of players with the exact proportion of classes to commit to a lengthy uninterrupted period of time? It is much more common to find only 8 people to do what requires 10, the class mix is hardly ever ideal, and in any given period of time people will come and go to answer the phone, eat, pee and poo. So why not design activities with the fluidity to accomodate that? If the 10 man content has a boss with 1,000,000 HPs and 20 Adds, why can't it change itself on the fly to a boss with 800,000 HPs and 16 adds when it notices that only 8 players are in the group? Seems pretty damn simple to me.
Well that's exactly the idea behind WAR's PQs, Rifts rifts and GW2's DEs: fun things to do that cater to whomever happens to be around and don't fall appart if Joe had to go take a crap. The problem is that all of those have been implemented as "third options." The games are still designed around solo or exact-number events primarily. GW2 perhaps has done it better than the others because they additionally have attempted to do away with the trinity with mixed success. But those are just first steps and there's a huge room for improvement.
But you know what? I'm not a developer. I expect the people who make a living doing this and want my money to come up with something infinitely better than what I can come-up with. And that isn't happening. What I see happening is either copying the same old systems because they made money over there, or bringing back something really old to appease the masses fed-up with WOWish games,
So I do agree with all of you who want change. And I also agree that there would be a certain charm in a new UO or SWG redoux updated for 2013. But it wouldn't be progress or innovation: it would be just a temporary retreat or regrouping before they can figure out just what the hell they can do next.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.
nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.
8432 posts, believe us, we know
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
When you would log in to an MMO just to be in a different world?
When you would hang out in Taverns/Cantinas just to socialize?
When you would create a character build based on what you wanted rather then what was "viable"?
When a game would launch and would not be 100% perfect and that would be OKAY?
When you would group up with players for the fun of completing content instead of the rewards?
When you would become friends with those you grouped with instead of dropping them when the quest is over?
When getting to max level was the least of your concerns?
When playing that MMO was more of an experience then "just another game"?
When you could leave a game amicably instead of it being a "failure" or that you "regret buying it"?
When you would play a game regardless of its payment model because you enjoyed it?
When the MMO Experience was actually FUN?
What happened to those times?
Most of those things have nothing to do with a game and everything to do with the gamer which may have well been your point.
When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.
Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.
The interesting thing to me about the AC2 beta right now is there is a big group of people who are happy to be there, are exploring, playing whatever class interests them, and accepting any group they want. Then there is another big group of people who are already exluding classes from their groups who might decrease their XP per hour and are doing everything they can to max cap immediately. It just shows how prevelant that mindset is now.
I join any group and invite anyone in as long as they meet the entry level for the dungeon/quest and have fun with it. I think that is the key to enjoying any game, just play your way and don't worry about keeping pace with others or playing the way they want you to.
Although its rather pointless to get involved in a chicken or egg argument about why MMOs evolved the way they have, I don't think your idea that shallow casual gameplay was created by the companies to attract and cater to the mainstream is historically acurate. I remember too well the complaints by the original MMORPG gamers about things such as too much wasted downtime forming groups and waiting for the AFK and competitive rare-spawn mob tagging, to blame more solo play opportunities and instancing of mobs in high-demand on the new crop of mainstream casuals: we wanted changes to be made and the industry solved our "problems" in their own ways. Were they solved the best way possible? Maybe not, but the point is that they were responding to what we, the original, early-adopting MMOers wanted.
Just quoting this part to clear something up. I'm not saying it's the developers that created the shallow gameplay we have today. I'm saying that it's not entirely the veteran players, but also the mainstream audience that have caused this shift. To use an example, many features like PUGs in WoW didn't come solely at the demand of veterans, but also also at the demand of the now mainstream audience (which mostly exists because of WoW) since both veteran and 'mainstream players' (for lack of a better expression) are dealing with stricter schedules and realities.
If there is one thing companies would be to blame though is their inability to comprehend what made WoW popular and why they should stop aiming to make a similar game with an added gimmick. But that's a different topic.
I didn't say it was a plot. Blizzard saw an opportunity to make a game that the casual gamers could play and realized that there were more of them than the hard core players. More players means more money. It was a good business decision on their part. A good business decision on their part equals the dumbed down, no life, no community games that we have to choose from today.
It's not even that, Blizzard and WoW came along at the right time when instead of a very small niche audience, they could open their game to millions upon millions of new players. Then they listened to those new potential players and made the game they wanted to play. They took a phenomenal business opportunity and capitalized on it and made the #1 MMO in the world for nearly 10 years running.
Yeah, they're crying about it all the way to the bank.
I never said that Blizzard intended or planned that things would go this way. They happened. Blizzard started the trend and until a game comes out that breaks this mold and becomes successful, we will continue to have games developed that have no sole or sense of community. The trend started with Blizzard so, it's their fault.
It wasn't a trend, it was a reaction to the majority of people who played the games and they are still in the majority. Games don't just mindlessly copy WoW, they recognize that the biggest part of the MMO community still wants to play a game like WoW, therefore that's what they make. When 95% of the gaming population wants a casual, solo-friendly, easy fantasy-based game, why is it so hard for people to understand why that's what most developers make?
It wasn't a trend, it was a reaction to the majority of people who played the games and they are still in the majority. Games don't just mindlessly copy WoW, they recognize that the biggest part of the MMO community still wants to play a game like WoW, therefore that's what they make. When 95% of the gaming population wants a casual, solo-friendly, easy fantasy-based game, why is it so hard for people to understand why that's what most developers make?
You know, it has happened more times than I can count where an industry, or part of it, made a bad judgement call and went way overboard.
Most of those things have nothing to do with a game and everything to do with the gamer which may have well been your point.
When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.
Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.
The interesting thing to me about the AC2 beta right now is there is a big group of people who are happy to be there, are exploring, playing whatever class interests them, and accepting any group they want. Then there is another big group of people who are already exluding classes from their groups who might decrease their XP per hour and are doing everything they can to max cap immediately. It just shows how prevelant that mindset is now.
I join any group and invite anyone in as long as they meet the entry level for the dungeon/quest and have fun with it. I think that is the key to enjoying any game, just play your way and don't worry about keeping pace with others or playing the way they want you to.
This reminds me off the recent progression servers in EQ, as I'd only ever played a private server of original EQ I was interested in these new servers to see what all the fuss was about, so I jumped in with both feet and had a go and it was an interesting time for a while but as I played and chatted to people rumours of max level toons were already circulating only a few weeks after launch and that got me thinking how the heck are people doing this as I was progressing very slowly. It dawned on me that of course these guys were EQ vets had ready made perfectly set up groups, logged in every night and knew all the good grinding spots, basically well prepared min/maxers going for server firsts, they were making a mockery of the level times as they had eliminated all the obsticles that were there originally due to ignorance of how to play EQ in its early days.
This is at the core of the nostalgia people have lost that feeling of discovery because they've seen it all before multiple times and turning the clock back will not bring back that sense of discovery again. They need to exit the genre for a few years as I did with FPS games a few years ago and come back when they've changed enough.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Comments
I said incentive because it depends on the MMO. UO and SWG allowed for a bit more solo-play (but still had features to maintain an active community) whereas other old MMOs like EQ and FFXI were closer to force-grouping. I was just speaking in general terms. The 'incentive' given by the current MMORPGs to group is far too weak to outweight the cons (less loot and gold, not everyone is on the same quests, etc). Solo players don't really have any issue surviving the normal mobs encounter either (or elite for that matter).
Current MMORPGs are solo-centric. The mentality of these MMOs is too focused on 'You' rather than your group. The addition of PUGs simply pushed that further by turning other players into "tools" provided by the game to further advance your character until you finally run out of content. There is no need to socialize with your "group" when it will dissolve as soon as the raid is over. You could play with NPCs and you'd have the same result. That's why they are solo-centric. Your advancement is the only thing that matters, the rest is irrelevant.
Was never a fanatic about anything, people thought the game would be horrible, I still think its a good game and lasted me longer then GW2 did simply finishing the stories, but again, both GW2 and SWTOR are great GAMES, but they aren't great MMOs.
It really is based more around a community, and one that matters. People saying that the old games were great back then but they aren't good now probably haven't played them. SWG preNGE was a fantastic game. The level of community interaction was amazing on many levels that is extremely rare to find today.
It wasn't about sandbox elements specifically, it was about variety. If you really want to match up other MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 and TSW and WAR and TERA, what you will notice is that they all truly lack variety.
But its true, its the players who dictate the kind of variety they want. It will likely be another few years before we see any kind of change in that avenue.
If I hadn't been there, your arguments would almost make sense, but I was there and lived the evolution. I have played one or more MMOs constantly since I started with Asheron's Call in 1999. I can't think of a single 2013, MMO convenience feature that wasn't instigated by us because we disliked or got tired of what it replaced.
I know that it's more popular to say that the companies, especially the large ones that produce AAA titles, are motivated by greed and everything they do comes from that. There is maybe something to that, but a lot of the things that now appeal to the masses weren't invented to attract more people--that happened independently and had everything to do with video games in general and MMOs specifically just becoming a mainstream form of entertainment.
It was we, the veteran MMOers who wanted an end to corpse runs and loss of inventory, we wanted something better than the honor system for trades, we wanted faster travel to the quest area or dungeon, we didn't want to waste hours trying to form a group to do a 30 minute quest. We demanded, auction houses, group finders, instant travel, mounts and mild death penalties.... and we wanted something fun to do when we only could log-in for 30 minutes.
Now we're having second thoughts and wondering if maybe we went too far and some of the convenience features are ruinning the experience. But I don't take as gospel that a nostalgic return to the old ways is the way to go. And I bet you that every old MMO vet has at least one of those convenience features that they would want to keep regardless of how harsh they want their ideal sandbox to be... more than likely something related to inventory management.
What I find silly and frustrating are all the suggestions here devoid of any creativity that just want some old features brought back because the old ways were better. They weren't and we got rid of a lot of the old things for good reasons.
I get a lot more excited and see more promise in new ideas not rehashing the same old crap even if it's very old crap that hasn't been done in the last 10 years. It's still old shit to me.
You mention soloing and grouping. The solution to the problem of modern grouping isn't to be found in old ways of doing it--that would just lead to repeating the same old problems. What's needed is something new like on-the-fly variable difficulty to accomodate groups of different sizes in an inclusive and fluid way. Something like what GW2 has attempted with dynamic events but done right as a permanent replacement for groups and raids, not just a 3rd option.
MMOs in 2013 are anything but perfect, but as a whole, they're a hell of an improvement over what existed 20 years ago. I know that's not what the cool kids like saying here but there it is. Improvements are to be found by moving forward not just resurrecting old dead crap.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Your first MMO was a very solo friendly MMO. So you like solo friendly games. No big mystery there. That's all you really had to say. The OP suggests he likes apples and you, et. al., are here arguing that oranges are better.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Hmm. Asheron's Call solo friendly? You must have been a Life Mage draining mobs through walls
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
WoW happened. A new generation of players that feel they are entitled to win just because they logged in happened. Suits started making development decisions happened.
That isn't why my guild and I quit playing. We didn't know each other when the game started, became friends and formed a guild. We stuck around for about 8 months or so with hopes that SOE would fix the issues but they took too long and we eventually left because of the bugs.
But I will say that what you say is true. Group finders, especially cross server group finders destroyed server community. Oh wait, yet another reason why WoW is responsible for destroying the genre. WoW, the most successful MMO made has done more to dumb down the genre and playerbase than anything else. Not trolling, just my honest option, if I offended anyone... I don't care.
Do you figure blizzard came up with that idea all by themselves or did the community demand it? I certainly remember which of those it was. People get pissed when it takes them 4 hours to get a group together for a 20 minute run...that's how they came into being.
It really wasn't an evil plot to dumb-down the genre lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They really need to put a "LIKE" system on this forum, it would stop a bunch of posts that just say "yeah, I agree!"
But yeah, I agree!
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Every one in gaming has been spoiled in one way or another. The go back to that same old game simply does not make a valid argument.
Times has certainly changed, obviously so do gamers but not all. In my gamers expectations I have not changed much, I still expect a MMORPG to deliver me a more virtual game world then the online combat games we get delivered. And while occasionally I enjoy some of today's MMORPG, they still are far to limited and bring forth a rush mentality among many players I encounter in those games.
Sure allot of things have been made better/finetuned, but also allot of things are missing from most common A-Tittle MMORPG's
I will admit that Star Wars Galaxies has spoiled me allot and is the main reason why most of today's MMO's feel so incredible limited and lifeless. While meridian59 was my first MMORPG even though I was completely unknown with the term MMORPG up untill EQ, yet also dabbeled in UO. But SWG made me fall in "gamerslove" with this genre due to the freedom the game provided.
I already play and enjoy limited games in other genre's. MMORPG was the game genre that truly gone beyond what I already played. Yet most of today's MMO's deliver the same type of gameplay singleplayer or multiplayer games offer..
nariusseldon: You probelby do not understand that those of us who want a more virtual world want to be entertained by that aswell it might not be the type of entertainment you seek. If I want fast entertainment I am lucky to enjoy allot of other genre of games. Never thought MMORPG would be put into the fast entertainment type, but long term entertaining virtual worlds to play in as we please at our own pace why rush if what's not done today can be done tomorrow/nextweek/month instead of being told what to do and rushing towards the same gameplay multiplayer games already offer.
Some people consider MMORPG to be more then "just a game" because of what we had and perhaps like me already enjoying plenty of other genre games.
OP: So I understand exactly what it is you're saying.
I think it was more then just SWG and UO, even games like CoH and FE had good things going for them in terms of community, socializing, and in some cases grouping.
FE had a ton of hype both before and after release. To me it looked like it was going to be a major hit. I've never figured out what caused its fall from fame. It seems to have gotten shoved to the back of the closet and forgotten.
I didn't say it was a plot. Blizzard saw an opportunity to make a game that the casual gamers could play and realized that there were more of them than the hard core players. More players means more money. It was a good business decision on their part. A good business decision on their part equals the dumbed down, no life, no community games that we have to choose from today.
I never said that Blizzard intended or planned that things would go this way. They happened. Blizzard started the trend and until a game comes out that breaks this mold and becomes successful, we will continue to have games developed that have no sole or sense of community. The trend started with Blizzard so, it's their fault.
besides, I NEVER waited 4 hours for a group that lasted 20 minutes in EQ. NEVER. I think the longest I ever waited was 10. If you are decent at your job, your name gets out and you will be wanted in groups. I would log in and have tells asking me if i had a group yet a lot of the time. I was an Iksar Monk and was pretty good at pulling in those days. That was before the tank had to pull, probably before your time. I set the pace for the entire group, and would train others that tried to infringe on my camp. Ah, the good old days, again, you probably have no idea what a train is. And no I ain't talking the choo choo type.
I was there as well (UO, and FFXI however), but perhaps not from the same perspective. I used to play mostly as a dedicated crafter and saw my purpose as crafter continuously diminish over time as loot-based items became more interesting than crafted items.
It's true that a lot of veterans have asked for many changes (corpse runs), but things like instant travel and pugs didn't come out purely because of veterans. They came when the genre was already "mainstream", and this mainstream audience has continuously asked for faster access to every feature or mechanic since.
Whether old features were removed for good reasons or not is debatable. There are pros and cons to everything, just like there are for the current MMOs features. Older MMOs features created a more community-driven MMORPGs were as current MMORPGs are more solo-driven. Gamers who liked community-driven MMORPGs may like the older features and vice-versa.
As far as your solution to soloing vs. grouping, I don't think it would solve the issue. For one, DE groups in GW2 are groups of individual players that don't even bother interacting with each others. Classes are also too independant to make teamwork more valuable.
Basically what we're asking is for one or two (playable) MMO to go back to the old roots and offer something different from the current crops of WoW-like MMORPGs. There are definitively some issues that needs to be addressed, but I don't think the current mechanics of current MMORPGs is the way to go in those cases (grouping and crafting comes to mind). Less focus vertical progression would be a great start for one, but there's so much to say to go on.
I'll disagree with you that MMOs in 2013 are better than what existed in the past. Obviously I'm a little biased because the main purpose that brought me to MMOs to begin with was taken away (Crafting) but nonetheless, the older MMOs felt a lot more like Massively Multiplayer Online RPGs than the MMOs in 2013 which plays more like Single Player Online RPGs with Multiplayer.
I appreciate your point of view (and kudos to you for disagreeing in a rational well-written way) and you're absolutely right: we have very different perspectives. I'm all about exploring, adventuring and progressing. My lack of interest in crafting and housing is right down there with fishing and pet collecting: to me they're optional side activities that bore me to death. The things I enjoy doing in MMOs all existed in the basic original D&D rulesets and, almost 40 years later, this is still what attracts me to the genre.
Having said that, I too expected MMOs to have evolved in a more inclusive way where alternate game-play styles were also accomodated. But the industry moved in a different direction--a direction that reflects modern social trends where its all about the quick fix and the briefest possible interaction with others.
Although its rather pointless to get involved in a chicken or egg argument about why MMOs evolved the way they have, I don't think your idea that shallow casual gameplay was created by the companies to attract and cater to the mainstream is historically acurate. I remember too well the complaints by the original MMORPG gamers about things such as too much wasted downtime forming groups and waiting for the AFK and competitive rare-spawn mob tagging, to blame more solo play opportunities and instancing of mobs in high-demand on the new crop of mainstream casuals: we wanted changes to be made and the industry solved our "problems" in their own ways. Were they solved the best way possible? Maybe not, but the point is that they were responding to what we, the original, early-adopting MMOers wanted.
I didn't mention GW2's DEs as an example of excellence, just as an example of a group of developers understanding the real problem and trying to address it. What is this "real problem?" Quite simply it's down-time and delays. Gamers have real lives that limit and interrupt their play time. They always have and they always will. And yet the vast majority of developers ignore that.
I believe that people really and truly would love to group up, synergize abilities and accomplish things together. That was the appeal in P&P D&D in the 70s and is still the appeal today. So knowing that, why in hell do developers still insist in programming activities that are either solo or that require an exact number of players with the exact proportion of classes to commit to a lengthy uninterrupted period of time? It is much more common to find only 8 people to do what requires 10, the class mix is hardly ever ideal, and in any given period of time people will come and go to answer the phone, eat, pee and poo. So why not design activities with the fluidity to accomodate that? If the 10 man content has a boss with 1,000,000 HPs and 20 Adds, why can't it change itself on the fly to a boss with 800,000 HPs and 16 adds when it notices that only 8 players are in the group? Seems pretty damn simple to me.
Well that's exactly the idea behind WAR's PQs, Rifts rifts and GW2's DEs: fun things to do that cater to whomever happens to be around and don't fall appart if Joe had to go take a crap. The problem is that all of those have been implemented as "third options." The games are still designed around solo or exact-number events primarily. GW2 perhaps has done it better than the others because they additionally have attempted to do away with the trinity with mixed success. But those are just first steps and there's a huge room for improvement.
But you know what? I'm not a developer. I expect the people who make a living doing this and want my money to come up with something infinitely better than what I can come-up with. And that isn't happening. What I see happening is either copying the same old systems because they made money over there, or bringing back something really old to appease the masses fed-up with WOWish games,
So I do agree with all of you who want change. And I also agree that there would be a certain charm in a new UO or SWG redoux updated for 2013. But it wouldn't be progress or innovation: it would be just a temporary retreat or regrouping before they can figure out just what the hell they can do next.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
How can i not understand when this "virtual world" thing is being flogged to death here every day? Don't confuse between understanding and agreeing. I just don't share that preference.
8432 posts, believe us, we know
"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs
Most of those things have nothing to do with a game and everything to do with the gamer which may have well been your point.
When the MMO genre was first formed there simply wasn't the mentality to get to max level ASAP and although some people crunched all the numbers to find the perfect builds, the majority just made and played what they wanted.
Over the years the idea that you have to level the most efficient way and must play only the absolute best builds has creeped into the majority of the player base. But there are still those of us who make what we want and when groups won't let us in for being "non-optimal" we just shrug and move on until we find another open minded group.
The interesting thing to me about the AC2 beta right now is there is a big group of people who are happy to be there, are exploring, playing whatever class interests them, and accepting any group they want. Then there is another big group of people who are already exluding classes from their groups who might decrease their XP per hour and are doing everything they can to max cap immediately. It just shows how prevelant that mindset is now.
I join any group and invite anyone in as long as they meet the entry level for the dungeon/quest and have fun with it. I think that is the key to enjoying any game, just play your way and don't worry about keeping pace with others or playing the way they want you to.
Just quoting this part to clear something up. I'm not saying it's the developers that created the shallow gameplay we have today. I'm saying that it's not entirely the veteran players, but also the mainstream audience that have caused this shift. To use an example, many features like PUGs in WoW didn't come solely at the demand of veterans, but also also at the demand of the now mainstream audience (which mostly exists because of WoW) since both veteran and 'mainstream players' (for lack of a better expression) are dealing with stricter schedules and realities.
If there is one thing companies would be to blame though is their inability to comprehend what made WoW popular and why they should stop aiming to make a similar game with an added gimmick. But that's a different topic.
It's not even that, Blizzard and WoW came along at the right time when instead of a very small niche audience, they could open their game to millions upon millions of new players. Then they listened to those new potential players and made the game they wanted to play. They took a phenomenal business opportunity and capitalized on it and made the #1 MMO in the world for nearly 10 years running.
Yeah, they're crying about it all the way to the bank.
It wasn't a trend, it was a reaction to the majority of people who played the games and they are still in the majority. Games don't just mindlessly copy WoW, they recognize that the biggest part of the MMO community still wants to play a game like WoW, therefore that's what they make. When 95% of the gaming population wants a casual, solo-friendly, easy fantasy-based game, why is it so hard for people to understand why that's what most developers make?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You know, it has happened more times than I can count where an industry, or part of it, made a bad judgement call and went way overboard.
This reminds me off the recent progression servers in EQ, as I'd only ever played a private server of original EQ I was interested in these new servers to see what all the fuss was about, so I jumped in with both feet and had a go and it was an interesting time for a while but as I played and chatted to people rumours of max level toons were already circulating only a few weeks after launch and that got me thinking how the heck are people doing this as I was progressing very slowly. It dawned on me that of course these guys were EQ vets had ready made perfectly set up groups, logged in every night and knew all the good grinding spots, basically well prepared min/maxers going for server firsts, they were making a mockery of the level times as they had eliminated all the obsticles that were there originally due to ignorance of how to play EQ in its early days.
This is at the core of the nostalgia people have lost that feeling of discovery because they've seen it all before multiple times and turning the clock back will not bring back that sense of discovery again. They need to exit the genre for a few years as I did with FPS games a few years ago and come back when they've changed enough.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.