For the longest time I helped build, ran and played on a NWN persistant world, it was reasonably busy and the stories people told and took part in there were amazingly deep and complex and in many ways are still a hundred times better than any narrative driven story put out since.
Cryptic will not reach these dizzying hights with an mmo, no mmo will, the world building element of NWN is a niche no one has tapped since though, if some one, anyone came up with a game that did the same, took care of the hosting and connectivity on something like Steam, Origin, Uplay etc. Added in the tilesets purchasable as part of expansions or even Microtransactions and if they capture that NWN sandbox feel true sandbox (not the sandbox of the modern day but a real sandbox) and I think it would be a winner.
But sadly the risk takers are scared of this model, or dont know how to properly monetise it or perhaps more pertinantly think they can monetise other things easier... its so sad to remember the highlight days of NWN and realise it wont be repeated ever...
Great article Suzie and thank you for sharing that affirming story. I can't imagine the magnitude of that stress even though I can certainly understand why the escape and control element of the game were so therapeutic.
I'm on the fence for Neverwinter for a few reasons echoed by others:
1. I haven't been overly impressed with Cryptic titles in the past. CoH and STO were both okay titles (I never touched ChO) but never held my interest. They make a good game, just not a good game for me. That's not necissarily a bad thing, the world has room for more things than just those I like.
2. I'm quite dubious about another button-masher, action combat title. I'm not opposed to action oriented combat per se, but it just seems wrong in D&D. Having said that, the fact that one of their launch classes is billed as a controller is at least a bright light.
3. Player generated content is indeed a good way to give a sand-boxy element to an otherwise theme park world, but if the players can't change the world then it's just faster theme park content generation. That might be a good thing, but I think MMO's need to move back towards making the players interaction with the world matter more. We have quite the proliferation of theme parks without a similar increase in market size, that's turning into quite a bit of community dilution.
Myself and several friends have this game on our radar but we will not be buying it at launch. Cryptic has failed twice with CO and STO and none of us want to be burned again. If it is truely F2P and there is no box price, we might play at launch but we have all agreed that giving Cryptic money at launch has been a bad idea.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
I've been looking forward to seeing this game develop for a good while now but as the classes get unveiled it appears to me that there's as much pigeon hole-ing of roles as there allegedly is in D&D 4th edition. For example, the Guardian must use a shield and sword at all times, yesterday we had a class that entirely specialises in swinging a big sword. Why couldn't they just have had a generic fighter class with the option to spec tank or dps and equip fill whatever role you're not bored of? With such stringent limitations on your characters gameplay choice surely that can't be a good thing?
The Foundry....yea. That is there way of saying "you deal with it". The thing about player created content is that the VAST majority of it is farming maps meant to get you your shiny new loot and skills as fast as possible without any risk. For every one great player mod, there will be 1000 horrible ones.
Plus no one will do any developer content, and they will just do player mods. That is what sunk City of Heroes. They put out their foundry and 95% of the rest of the game suddenly became empty.
I agree the 3rd edition D&D part Also agree with the Architect farming problem in CoH. (Actually I even posted this as a question in Positron's thread, why they allowed Architect farming...)
But I think you're mistaken with the Foundry. That's the major difference between the Foundry and the Architect, you can't farm in a Foundry mission. (at least in STO, but I think Cryptic is planning the same in Neverwinter too). You can't levelling in Foundry, can't get awesome gear or truckload of money from it, it's only for storytelling and for fun. The closest thing to farming were the broken console missions, but those weren't "farming" in the original meaning, they only shortened the time for completing the daily Investigate officer report - and Cryptic closed that option too with Season 7.
I was also a NWN Persistent World player. That world (Lands of Acheron) held the single greatest RP environment a person could ask for - in fact, I've since tried and left lots of RP groups in MMOs that failed to keep up with how intense the RP was there.
Sadly, we won't have anything quite like Persistent Worlds in this version, but perhaps some of what made the PWs awesome will be captured. The ability to create custom content gives us a chance to see things done our way, instead of the way of some executive producer totally disconnected from the community. If I want insanely difficult fighting challenges, I can play quests that feature them. If I want quests that are intensely story-driven, I can play them. I hope we'll see some method of organizing these quests - from player communities built around strong story content, battles, puzzles, and so on, to websites allowing us to sort and rate those quests in more powerful ways than what we'll get in-game.
For my own part, I've already started writing a quest line based around building temples to other good deities in NNW (besides Torm & Selune... although with the latter, there is much work to be done...)
It's all about the gameplay. The Foundry can be the coolest thing ever but if the gameplay isn't good, there won't be very many people interested in seeing what you can make.
I hope they expand the beta and get more testers in and actually pay attention to feedback.
Touching article, but I see no reason to have any faith whatsoever in Cryptic. The fact that this game shares the neverwinter title really means nothing to me.
The article was a good read.. And I too enjoyed NWN very very much.. However, after watching some videos of this game, I find it hard to even place it in the same category as NWN.. Something tells me that this will be a twitch intensive game in the veins of vindictus and such.. Much less about character creation and more about fancy "anime-esque" skill animations and combo chains..
One day I feel we will get a Dungeons and Dragons game that is somewhat closer to Baldurs Gate or NWN (hopefully in the Dark Sun Campaign setting), but unfortunately for us I don't think that this one is it..
I have many fond memories of NWN and the various PWs. I also love MMOs. So I have high hopes for this. I really hope The Foundry will allow players to create some great content.
My fear though is that it will feel like CO or STO. Although I like those games, they feel a bit... cheap.. somehow.
Originally posted by redcapp Touching article, but I see no reason to have any faith whatsoever in Cryptic. The fact that this game shares the neverwinter title really means nothing to me.
Same.
The next time Cryptic even comes close to meeting player expectations will be the first time.
When you are talking Cryptic, the question is not can they fill the shoes, but what will the shoes be filled with. (Based on Cryptic's track record, I am betting with something brown and having an uncanny resemblance to poopie.)
Thanks for sharing your story. Foundry will be amazing. I don't know if it will have things similar to NWN as that was not MMO, but I am sure in terms of story-telling ability it will be ahead of it.
First off let me just say thank you Suzie for a wonderful article, I always enjoy your work. Secondly, God bless you for pulling through such a horrible ordeal and even though I have been blessed to of never been a victim of any horrible afflictions I do know the power of MMO's or rather the appeal of role playing a character in a persistent world. It allows me and many like us to escape the trappings of many real life issues. Mine is my work, I have been a Police Officer since 1988 and I see alot of stuff in my daily life that has probobly scarred me for life. MMO's are my saving grace as it allows me to vent my frustrations and escape the evils of this world to live out a fantasy life in another. Again thanks for sharing your story and I who-heartedly agree with your assessment on persistent worlds.
Lastly I purchased NWN 2 but never played it, as I was stil lengrossed in DAoC and Asherons Call at the time of its arrival so those persistent worlds was enough for me. However I have long been a P&P RP'er (since 1982) and Forgotten Realms was always my favorite setting. In fact Drizzt remains my all time favorite fantasy character and almost all my online personna's are pattered after him, from the dark skinned grey-haired looks (even if theres no Dark Elves in the game I am playing) My current GW2 character is a long grey-haired , dark-skinned Human Warrior. Every since The Crystal Shard released in 1988 (coincidently enough, the same year I became a Cop) I have loved The Forgotten Realms since I first played the Swords of the Iron Legion module that same year.
I agree with you also that the Foundry system is going to be huge and will usher in hopefully a paradigm shift in the genre as UGC, I feel is the new innovation to usher in an era of unrestricted endgame content for themeparks. In theory, if the Foundry system works good will we ever hear about a lack of endgame content in a themeaprk game ever again. This is a wonderful and exciting time in the genre IMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
For me at 41 years of age, It's the story when it comes to them filling the shoes part. I ahve been reading novels since the 80's of this area of D&D I love them and I hope the storyline does the the neverwinter world justice.
From the well known Drizzit,to Chauntea Moonfire the druid goddess of the moonshae isles to Azure Dragonbane...and I forget the halfling with the gem but himm too!
For me at 41 years of age, It's the story when it comes to them filling the shoes part. I ahve been reading novels since the 80's of this area of D&D I love them and I hope the storyline does the the neverwinter world justice.
From the well known Drizzit,to Chauntea Moonfire the druid goddess of the moonshae isles to Azure Dragonbane...and I forget the halfling with the gem but himm too!
Regus
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Well it was medicine that saved Suzie’s life. But the idea that a video game helped her get through all that does not surprise me. Continuing to get enjoyment out of what we have enjoyed in life seems to be a great tonic while suffering from serious illness.
I do question how well player generated content will go down in today’s MMO market. On the one hand it could be the answer to content locusts who reach end game in a month. On the other today’s players have learnt to be spoon fed by their games, I do not think that encourages players to step up and start desgining.
But I do hold out hopes that NW will herald a new direction for MMO’s. As always though, do not preorder, wait for those reviews.
I beta'd nwn and played it and its sequels and expansions for years. This isn't nwns. Hardly any classes and races. And cryptic isn't known for adding storied content on a regular basis.
Originally posted by staran I beta'd nwn and played it and its sequels and expansions for years.This isn't nwns. Hardly any classes and races.And cryptic isn't known for adding storied content on a regular basis.
Whether the game does well will largely depend on whether they continue to actively engage the modder community. So far, they've done a marginally decent job at that.
If *good* content can keep getting developed by the community, the developers could focus their efforts on updates to add functionality - races, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, modding options, and so on.
Great article and agree 100% any game that can give the community full control over creating adventures is a win in my book, now we just wait to see if they can actually pull it off.
Who needs Neverwinter, or Dungeons & Dragons Online, or any other MMORPG games when there are amazing persistent worlds for NWN 2 such as Baldur's Gate? NWN 1 is in its elderly years but NWN 2 is in its prime age right now. The evolution of NWN 2 and persistent worlds hasn't been standing still all these years. The persistent world of Baldur's Gate alone has been experienced by thousands of players over the last 2-3 years and the release of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition one or two months ago gave it an even greater popularity boost.
Good read Suzie, I would hope that this would evolve into a great online game but with cryptic at the Helm I have my reservations. Today even if Bioware did this game I would be afraid it would be a clone of SWTOR. I ask is there a company that could do this series justice? I know of none at this time. Will Cryptic change? I dont think so but time will tell.
Comments
For the longest time I helped build, ran and played on a NWN persistant world, it was reasonably busy and the stories people told and took part in there were amazingly deep and complex and in many ways are still a hundred times better than any narrative driven story put out since.
Cryptic will not reach these dizzying hights with an mmo, no mmo will, the world building element of NWN is a niche no one has tapped since though, if some one, anyone came up with a game that did the same, took care of the hosting and connectivity on something like Steam, Origin, Uplay etc. Added in the tilesets purchasable as part of expansions or even Microtransactions and if they capture that NWN sandbox feel true sandbox (not the sandbox of the modern day but a real sandbox) and I think it would be a winner.
But sadly the risk takers are scared of this model, or dont know how to properly monetise it or perhaps more pertinantly think they can monetise other things easier... its so sad to remember the highlight days of NWN and realise it wont be repeated ever...
I don't know why people keep talking about this as if it's a Neverweinter Nights game.
I'd love a Neverwinter Nights 3, but this isn't part of that franchise. Stop.
Great article Suzie and thank you for sharing that affirming story. I can't imagine the magnitude of that stress even though I can certainly understand why the escape and control element of the game were so therapeutic.
I'm on the fence for Neverwinter for a few reasons echoed by others:
1. I haven't been overly impressed with Cryptic titles in the past. CoH and STO were both okay titles (I never touched ChO) but never held my interest. They make a good game, just not a good game for me. That's not necissarily a bad thing, the world has room for more things than just those I like.
2. I'm quite dubious about another button-masher, action combat title. I'm not opposed to action oriented combat per se, but it just seems wrong in D&D. Having said that, the fact that one of their launch classes is billed as a controller is at least a bright light.
3. Player generated content is indeed a good way to give a sand-boxy element to an otherwise theme park world, but if the players can't change the world then it's just faster theme park content generation. That might be a good thing, but I think MMO's need to move back towards making the players interaction with the world matter more. We have quite the proliferation of theme parks without a similar increase in market size, that's turning into quite a bit of community dilution.
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I agree the 3rd edition D&D part
Also agree with the Architect farming problem in CoH. (Actually I even posted this as a question in Positron's thread, why they allowed Architect farming...)
But I think you're mistaken with the Foundry. That's the major difference between the Foundry and the Architect, you can't farm in a Foundry mission. (at least in STO, but I think Cryptic is planning the same in Neverwinter too). You can't levelling in Foundry, can't get awesome gear or truckload of money from it, it's only for storytelling and for fun. The closest thing to farming were the broken console missions, but those weren't "farming" in the original meaning, they only shortened the time for completing the daily Investigate officer report - and Cryptic closed that option too with Season 7.
I was also a NWN Persistent World player. That world (Lands of Acheron) held the single greatest RP environment a person could ask for - in fact, I've since tried and left lots of RP groups in MMOs that failed to keep up with how intense the RP was there.
Sadly, we won't have anything quite like Persistent Worlds in this version, but perhaps some of what made the PWs awesome will be captured. The ability to create custom content gives us a chance to see things done our way, instead of the way of some executive producer totally disconnected from the community. If I want insanely difficult fighting challenges, I can play quests that feature them. If I want quests that are intensely story-driven, I can play them. I hope we'll see some method of organizing these quests - from player communities built around strong story content, battles, puzzles, and so on, to websites allowing us to sort and rate those quests in more powerful ways than what we'll get in-game.
For my own part, I've already started writing a quest line based around building temples to other good deities in NNW (besides Torm & Selune... although with the latter, there is much work to be done...)
It's all about the gameplay. The Foundry can be the coolest thing ever but if the gameplay isn't good, there won't be very many people interested in seeing what you can make.
I hope they expand the beta and get more testers in and actually pay attention to feedback.
The article was a good read.. And I too enjoyed NWN very very much.. However, after watching some videos of this game, I find it hard to even place it in the same category as NWN.. Something tells me that this will be a twitch intensive game in the veins of vindictus and such.. Much less about character creation and more about fancy "anime-esque" skill animations and combo chains..
One day I feel we will get a Dungeons and Dragons game that is somewhat closer to Baldurs Gate or NWN (hopefully in the Dark Sun Campaign setting), but unfortunately for us I don't think that this one is it..
These were actually THINGS.
Neverwinter.. Looks to be much the same..
I have many fond memories of NWN and the various PWs. I also love MMOs. So I have high hopes for this. I really hope The Foundry will allow players to create some great content.
My fear though is that it will feel like CO or STO. Although I like those games, they feel a bit... cheap.. somehow.
Same.
The next time Cryptic even comes close to meeting player expectations will be the first time.
When you are talking Cryptic, the question is not can they fill the shoes, but what will the shoes be filled with. (Based on Cryptic's track record, I am betting with something brown and having an uncanny resemblance to poopie.)
Foundry Feedback | Foundry Tutorials
First off let me just say thank you Suzie for a wonderful article, I always enjoy your work. Secondly, God bless you for pulling through such a horrible ordeal and even though I have been blessed to of never been a victim of any horrible afflictions I do know the power of MMO's or rather the appeal of role playing a character in a persistent world. It allows me and many like us to escape the trappings of many real life issues. Mine is my work, I have been a Police Officer since 1988 and I see alot of stuff in my daily life that has probobly scarred me for life. MMO's are my saving grace as it allows me to vent my frustrations and escape the evils of this world to live out a fantasy life in another. Again thanks for sharing your story and I who-heartedly agree with your assessment on persistent worlds.
Lastly I purchased NWN 2 but never played it, as I was stil lengrossed in DAoC and Asherons Call at the time of its arrival so those persistent worlds was enough for me. However I have long been a P&P RP'er (since 1982) and Forgotten Realms was always my favorite setting. In fact Drizzt remains my all time favorite fantasy character and almost all my online personna's are pattered after him, from the dark skinned grey-haired looks (even if theres no Dark Elves in the game I am playing) My current GW2 character is a long grey-haired , dark-skinned Human Warrior. Every since The Crystal Shard released in 1988 (coincidently enough, the same year I became a Cop) I have loved The Forgotten Realms since I first played the Swords of the Iron Legion module that same year.
I agree with you also that the Foundry system is going to be huge and will usher in hopefully a paradigm shift in the genre as UGC, I feel is the new innovation to usher in an era of unrestricted endgame content for themeparks. In theory, if the Foundry system works good will we ever hear about a lack of endgame content in a themeaprk game ever again. This is a wonderful and exciting time in the genre IMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
For me at 41 years of age, It's the story when it comes to them filling the shoes part. I ahve been reading novels since the 80's of this area of D&D I love them and I hope the storyline does the the neverwinter world justice.
From the well known Drizzit,to Chauntea Moonfire the druid goddess of the moonshae isles to Azure Dragonbane...and I forget the halfling with the gem but himm too!
Regus
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Well it was medicine that saved Suzie’s life. But the idea that a video game helped her get through all that does not surprise me. Continuing to get enjoyment out of what we have enjoyed in life seems to be a great tonic while suffering from serious illness.
I do question how well player generated content will go down in today’s MMO market. On the one hand it could be the answer to content locusts who reach end game in a month. On the other today’s players have learnt to be spoon fed by their games, I do not think that encourages players to step up and start desgining.
But I do hold out hopes that NW will herald a new direction for MMO’s. As always though, do not preorder, wait for those reviews.
This isn't nwns. Hardly any classes and races.
And cryptic isn't known for adding storied content on a regular basis.
Whether the game does well will largely depend on whether they continue to actively engage the modder community. So far, they've done a marginally decent job at that.
If *good* content can keep getting developed by the community, the developers could focus their efforts on updates to add functionality - races, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, modding options, and so on.
Who needs Neverwinter, or Dungeons & Dragons Online, or any other MMORPG games when there are amazing persistent worlds for NWN 2 such as Baldur's Gate? NWN 1 is in its elderly years but NWN 2 is in its prime age right now. The evolution of NWN 2 and persistent worlds hasn't been standing still all these years. The persistent world of Baldur's Gate alone has been experienced by thousands of players over the last 2-3 years and the release of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition one or two months ago gave it an even greater popularity boost.
* more info, screenshots and videos here