I say we, the gamming community, could in-fact create an rpg that can be shared by all with an epic lore, septuple phase boss fights that last for longer then the usual time, and a great method for which to deliver both story and challenge. Best of all, we as a community could do it with out falling prey to the common short commings of our predisessors.
Sounds like an excellent idea. I'm in. Put together a feature set that you all agree on and ping me when that's done.
LOL, game design by committee. I've tried it a bit in the past. Didn't work out so well.
The problem I see is that some deisgn elements contradict with others. Unless there's a focused objective, the mixed feature set just becomes a confused mess that pleases nobody.
edit: kant spel
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Ahh now see that makes more sense thanks for clearing that up.. I can't even remember what a non instance dungeon was like. Of course there would be the classic concerns: would others be able to disrupt you during your parties dungeon? Would the server be able to accomadate both full dungeons and raids and still have enough space for the environment with out creating too much load lag? Stuff like that.
- Take DAoC as it was before ToA, add good graphics and a good engine that supports huge fights.
- B2P with a cosmetic cash shop.
- Keep the trinity
- Change the combat to something like GW2s (casting while moving, no /stick)
- Change the skill system to something like GW1s
- Add more open world bosses (some in the RvR zones, some in PvE)
- DF
- Make the item system more interesting (D2/D3 has the best item system IMO - NO RMAH/AH though)
- no crazy classes this time (warlocks, necros, bds, animists etc)
- give us the choice between RvR and FFA PvP servers
- Add sandbox elements. building/destroying keeps, player run towns etc
- Keep the realm rank system as it was
- NO instances / NO instanced dungeons/raids/bgs/arenas.
- Leveling should be done as it was done in vanilla daoc. NO questing. NO "random events"
I can get behing a lot of that and say YES! but the last two concern me a LOT. I tend to lean more toward the PVE aspect of gaming, so having no dungeons or raids would make me cringe a little. If you could go more in depth here, maybe help me understand what I'm not seeing that would be awesome. I did EQOA leveling where we just grinded the same spots and I swear after my first end game character I said to hell with doing that EVER again. I like getting xp for everything I do crafting exploring question I love dynamic events but I think it should be more like rift in the aspect that you can go to certain locations with a group or by yourself and complete and event that you can trigger.
UO isn't the end all be all of MMO gaming, but they did do a lot of things right, and of course much of it could be improved upon or changed. Now in UO there was no defined raiding at all. However, there were area's where you would be wise to go with a very large group of people! The thing with UO was, you didn't always have to make your own very large group. For instance, my first time trying to tame a nightmare was really a lot of fun. It was me and a healer/mage that ventured to go get a couple. Normally it would have taken quite a few of us due to all the mobs in the area (lots of poison from them too). But because it was an open area, other groups of 2 and 3 and even 4 were there as well. So we arrived after carefully making our way there and found all these people there too. I was able to tame 2 that day (after a death or two of course lol).
I remember another dungeon that was in a mountain that had a ton of drakes in it, and eventually dragons too, along with some elementals. It looked like some sort of abandoned fortress instead of a typical cave. Again, we could have (and did once or twice) made a very large group and gone in. But again, there were almost always people in the area willing to help out and push forward. So when 8+ people were needed, we'd go with maybe 2-3 people, show up and find a dozen or more people already starting.
All of this occured during the apparently terrible PK era where people pretend that everyone died everywhere because it was apparently all about ganking (which near the brit cemetary it was lol). So yeah, we don't need defined raids per-se, so much as the opportunity for them to form.
I say we, the gamming community, could in-fact create an rpg that can be shared by all with an epic lore, septuple phase boss fights that last for longer then the usual time, and a great method for which to deliver both story and challenge. Best of all, we as a community could do it with out falling prey to the common short commings of our predisessors.
Sounds like an excellent idea. I'm in. Put together a feature set that you all agree on and ping me when that's done.
LOL, game design by committee. I've tried it a bit in the past. Didn't work out so well.
The problem I see is that some deisgn elements contradict with others. Unless there's a focused objective, the mixed feature set just becomes a confused mess that pleases nobody.
edit: kant spel
Committee eh? In my line of work there is a saying:
That's easy peasy. I'd steal everything other games did right and leave out the things they did wrong.
There is a quote around the world that goes something like this "good artists borrow, great artists steal".
Adding in some pop culture references so my game had the lifespan of a cantaloupe. Oh crap, that worked for dancing in mmos, time to rewrite the gameplan.
Am I close?
Not trying to be snarky it just takes too long to type out everything I want in a game. Plus, spiessss e'reywhere. Already some of the things I wrote down years ago people are already starting to talk about. I just want to scream shhhhhhhh - don't give them ideas.
Every time a game does this they call it a wow clone....because wow did it first.
That's easy peasy. I'd steal everything other games did right and leave out the things they did wrong.
There is a quote around the world that goes something like this "good artists borrow, great artists steal".
Adding in some pop culture references so my game had the lifespan of a cantaloupe. Oh crap, that worked for dancing in mmos, time to rewrite the gameplan.
Am I close?
Not trying to be snarky it just takes too long to type out everything I want in a game. Plus, spiessss e'reywhere. Already some of the things I wrote down years ago people are already starting to talk about. I just want to scream shhhhhhhh - don't give them ideas.
Every time a game does this they call it a wow clone....because wow did it first.
I would make it so that everything that you did was meaningfull.....
- Longer leveling experience
- More sandbox feel (get these games off rails)
- The game needs to feel like a MMO, not a single player game that you just happen to be playing along side other single players.
- No vendor loot (stupidest idea ever). Everything that drops should have a use somehow / someway
- Put the grind back in the leveling journey, not with dailies at end game
- Spell memorization for casters
- Robust worlds that didn't feel closed
- As someone mentioned earlier, bring back a few contested open world raid bosses.
- Eating and drinking to survive (though not overkill)
- Stop trying to inovate group make up. There's a reason why the holy trinity is called the holy trinity.
- Bring back larger group sizes
- Definately a good amount of dungeon type encounters
- A really nice assortment of out of game crafting, political, & guild management tools
- Stop wasting time and money on ingame voice-chat. There's plenty of out of game tools out there.
- Raiding
- No enrage timers. If you need a dps check be innovative with it
- Class specific roles. If you want to tank then play " x " class. period.
- Wide variety of races
- Be sane with class abilities. There's really no need to gain a new ability every freakin level.
- Character racial traits and class limitations (seriously, do you really think an Ogre makes a good theif or Halfling a raid tank?)
- Detailed Guild / Clan dynamics
- Make it to where you need the equlilant of 2 full groups to make a Guild. What sense does it make for 1 person to form a Guild then spam everyone insistantly until they can fill it up? Imo if you make it so freakin easy to form a Guild then you devalue Guilds.
- Dynamic events in moderation (Rift was definately on to something)
- A good mix of instanced and non-instanced areas (EQ2 seems to have gotten this right)
- Dynamic Crafting
- Crafting to have a true use, rather than be worthless at end game
- Definately harvesting
- Non-instanced player cities / housing
- A world-wide and local political system
- Huge areas were players can RvR / PvP with meaning, yet not infringe on those who do not wish to (DAOC & GW2 did great with this)
- Player mounts (land & air), wagons, ships, & even air-ships
- Balanced travel. Less than 15mins to get somewhere, but more than 5.
- Company that puts out meaningful content once a year that doesn't feel like more busy work.
- Lose "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" mentality. The small minority of poeple who whine the loudest are not always right. Be thoughtful about changes and implimentations as to how they affect the whole. Don't grease these wheels, replace them. There's a huge difference between a contructive complaint / concern & someone who is just complaining to complain.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head. Can't tell you how many times we've had these types of discussions in TeamSpeak every night....lol.
Sorry, this list keeps getting longer as i think of more things to add
I would make it so that everything that you did was meaningfull.....
- Longer leveling experience
- More sandbox feel (get these games off rails)
- No vendor loot (stupidest idea ever). Everything that dropped had a use somehow / someway
- Put the grind back in the leveling journey, not with dailies at end game
- Spell memorization for casters
- Robust worlds that didn't feel closed
- Stop trying to inovate group make up. There's a reason why the holy trinity is called the holy trinity.
- Bring back larger group sizes
- Definately a good amount of dungeon type encounters
- Raiding
- Class specific roles. If you want to tank then play " x " class. period.
- Wide variety of races
- Be sane with class abilities. There's really no need to gain a new ability every freakin level.
- Character racial traits and class limitations (seriously, an Ogre theif or Halfling tank?)
- Detailed Guild / Clan dynamics
- Make it to where you need the equlilant of 2 full groups to make a Guild. What sense does it make for 1 person to form a Guild then spam everyone insistantly until they can fill it up? Imo if you make it so freakin easy to form a Guild then you devalue Guilds.
- Dynamic events in moderation (Rift was definately on to something)
- A good mix of instanced and non-instanced areas (EQ2 seems to have gotten this right)
- Dynamic Crafting
- Crafting to have a true use, rather than be worthless at end game
- Definately harvesting
- Non-instanced player cities / housing
- A world-wide and local political system
- Huge areas were players can RvR / PvP with meaning, yet not infringe on those who do not wish to (DAOC & GW2 did great with this)
- Player mounts (land & air), wagons, ships, & even air-ships
- Balanced travel. Less than 15mins to get somewhere, but more than 5.
- Company that puts out meaningful content once a year that doesn't feel like more busy work.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head. Can't tell you how many times we've had these types of discussions in TeamSpeak every night....lol.
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
I say we, the gamming community, could in-fact create an rpg that can be shared by all with an epic lore, septuple phase boss fights that last for longer then the usual time, and a great method for which to deliver both story and challenge. Best of all, we as a community could do it with out falling prey to the common short commings of our predisessors.
Sounds like an excellent idea. I'm in. Put together a feature set that you all agree on and ping me when that's done.
LOL, game design by committee. I've tried it a bit in the past. Didn't work out so well.
The problem I see is that some deisgn elements contradict with others. Unless there's a focused objective, the mixed feature set just becomes a confused mess that pleases nobody.
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
The Original Everquest pretty much nailed it in the early days
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
The Original Everquest pretty much nailed it in the early days
Sadly, I missed out on those days. I started with UO and then transitioned to DCUO. I feel I missed out on an amazing game!
The problem I see is that some deisgn elements contradict with others. Unless there's a focused objective, the mixed feature set just becomes a confused mess that pleases nobody.
ehm i am pretty sure that was loktofeit's point
I think so too. I credit lack of focused design on many MMORPG failures. It's hard enough to do three things well, but when you try to roll twelve often conflicting design objectives into one, it just ends up mush.
You end up with: Massively single player with large overland that's never used while people solo instances and rush to reach endgame where they complain about multiplayer conent, and leveling that's too slow. And that doesn't even mention pvp or storyline features :-).
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
The Original Everquest pretty much nailed it in the early days
I played EQ from release for 1 year. Not a good game compared to modern MMOs. Camping, trains, long boat rides, staring at spell book, no AH, all the stuff i can do without.
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
The Original Everquest pretty much nailed it in the early days
I played EQ from release for 1 year. Not a good game compared to modern MMOs. Camping, trains, long boat rides, staring at spell book, no AH, all the stuff i can do without.
Sooooo basically anything that promotes immersion?
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
The Original Everquest pretty much nailed it in the early days
I played EQ from release for 1 year. Not a good game compared to modern MMOs. Camping, trains, long boat rides, staring at spell book, no AH, all the stuff i can do without.
Well, not good for you, but some like those things. But we both already know that.
Everyone that mentions path of exile gets me wanting to try it out. I think I will do a bit of research first though. I don't wand another d3 catastrophy where i spending MONTHS grinding the same bs level for NO REASON AT ALL!
I know its not an MMO even in the least bit. But I have been enjoing path of exile. And at least it is totally F2P. The store stuff they announced isn't a hinderance for a non-mmo style game. One of my buddies who loves (or should I say oved d3), but preferred D2 is really enjoying the game. We have both taken a break from the beta though so we don't ruin it for ourselves upon launch.
*edit* - I only brought it up because I think Narius would jump all over a game like this.
Originally posted by g4m3sh4rk Everyone that mentions path of exile gets me wanting to try it out. I think I will do a bit of research first though. I don't wand another d3 catastrophy where i spending MONTHS grinding the same bs level for NO REASON AT ALL!
I very much recommend this game, but why not try it yourself? Open Beta starts January 23rd.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I really, really, should. But I feel I loose a bit of interest for every game I try that doesn't work out and its really depressing stuff man. I will do my research and try it on the 23rd to see how i like it.
I think the problem is the MMORPG genre is too focused on the G and not enough on the Ms and the Rs. When companies start making MMOs that are more like virtual worlds than like the same thing we've been doing in computer RPGs since the 1980s only with more people, then it will stop pissing so many of us off and forcing us to wander from new game to new game trying to find something that no longer exists if it ever did.
Originally posted by meddyck I think the problem is the MMORPG genre is too focused on the G and not enough on the Ms and the Rs. When companies start making MMOs that are more like virtual worlds than like the same thing we've been doing in computer RPGs since the 1980s only with more people, then it will stop pissing so many of us off and forcing us to wander from new game to new game trying to find something that no longer exists if it ever did.
Well put Meddyck! I remember in EQOA i could sit for 10 hours and grind the same mob and feel so accomplished by the 2 or 3 levels i got that day. Now-a-days I couldn't make it through 1 hour of actual conent before I get bored. I feel games need to bring back purpose. Adrenline mixed with desire mixed with persistance mixed with accomplishment is the concaution needed to produce euphoria.. the same kind of euphoria that drove us all in the early years. I really hope we can bring that back.
Comments
LOL, game design by committee. I've tried it a bit in the past. Didn't work out so well.
The problem I see is that some deisgn elements contradict with others. Unless there's a focused objective, the mixed feature set just becomes a confused mess that pleases nobody.
edit: kant spel
UO isn't the end all be all of MMO gaming, but they did do a lot of things right, and of course much of it could be improved upon or changed. Now in UO there was no defined raiding at all. However, there were area's where you would be wise to go with a very large group of people! The thing with UO was, you didn't always have to make your own very large group. For instance, my first time trying to tame a nightmare was really a lot of fun. It was me and a healer/mage that ventured to go get a couple. Normally it would have taken quite a few of us due to all the mobs in the area (lots of poison from them too). But because it was an open area, other groups of 2 and 3 and even 4 were there as well. So we arrived after carefully making our way there and found all these people there too. I was able to tame 2 that day (after a death or two of course lol).
I remember another dungeon that was in a mountain that had a ton of drakes in it, and eventually dragons too, along with some elementals. It looked like some sort of abandoned fortress instead of a typical cave. Again, we could have (and did once or twice) made a very large group and gone in. But again, there were almost always people in the area willing to help out and push forward. So when 8+ people were needed, we'd go with maybe 2-3 people, show up and find a dozen or more people already starting.
All of this occured during the apparently terrible PK era where people pretend that everyone died everywhere because it was apparently all about ganking (which near the brit cemetary it was lol). So yeah, we don't need defined raids per-se, so much as the opportunity for them to form.
Committee eh? In my line of work there is a saying:
"A camel is a horse designed by a committee"
Every time a game does this they call it a wow clone....because wow did it first.
on topic
MMos are fine it's the players that are broken.
I disagree.
I would make it so that everything that you did was meaningfull.....
- Longer leveling experience
- More sandbox feel (get these games off rails)
- The game needs to feel like a MMO, not a single player game that you just happen to be playing along side other single players.
- No vendor loot (stupidest idea ever). Everything that drops should have a use somehow / someway
- Put the grind back in the leveling journey, not with dailies at end game
- Spell memorization for casters
- Robust worlds that didn't feel closed
- As someone mentioned earlier, bring back a few contested open world raid bosses.
- Eating and drinking to survive (though not overkill)
- Stop trying to inovate group make up. There's a reason why the holy trinity is called the holy trinity.
- Bring back larger group sizes
- Definately a good amount of dungeon type encounters
- A really nice assortment of out of game crafting, political, & guild management tools
- Stop wasting time and money on ingame voice-chat. There's plenty of out of game tools out there.
- Raiding
- No enrage timers. If you need a dps check be innovative with it
- Class specific roles. If you want to tank then play " x " class. period.
- Wide variety of races
- Be sane with class abilities. There's really no need to gain a new ability every freakin level.
- Character racial traits and class limitations (seriously, do you really think an Ogre makes a good theif or Halfling a raid tank?)
- Detailed Guild / Clan dynamics
- Make it to where you need the equlilant of 2 full groups to make a Guild. What sense does it make for 1 person to form a Guild then spam everyone insistantly until they can fill it up? Imo if you make it so freakin easy to form a Guild then you devalue Guilds.
- Dynamic events in moderation (Rift was definately on to something)
- A good mix of instanced and non-instanced areas (EQ2 seems to have gotten this right)
- Dynamic Crafting
- Crafting to have a true use, rather than be worthless at end game
- Definately harvesting
- Non-instanced player cities / housing
- A world-wide and local political system
- Huge areas were players can RvR / PvP with meaning, yet not infringe on those who do not wish to (DAOC & GW2 did great with this)
- Player mounts (land & air), wagons, ships, & even air-ships
- Balanced travel. Less than 15mins to get somewhere, but more than 5.
- Company that puts out meaningful content once a year that doesn't feel like more busy work.
- Lose "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" mentality. The small minority of poeple who whine the loudest are not always right. Be thoughtful about changes and implimentations as to how they affect the whole. Don't grease these wheels, replace them. There's a huge difference between a contructive complaint / concern & someone who is just complaining to complain.
Just a few ideas off the top of my head. Can't tell you how many times we've had these types of discussions in TeamSpeak every night....lol.
Sorry, this list keeps getting longer as i think of more things to add
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
While I don't agree with everything you list, there is one thing I never put much thought into. And that is vendor loot! Now that you got me thinking about it I am tired of trash loot that you just sell off. Would be nice if all items had a purpose in game. I can think of games that came close to it, but none that achieved that 100%.
ehm
i am pretty sure that was loktofeit's point 
The Original Everquest pretty much nailed it in the early days
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
Sadly, I missed out on those days. I started with UO and then transitioned to DCUO. I feel I missed out on an amazing game!
I think so too. I credit lack of focused design on many MMORPG failures. It's hard enough to do three things well, but when you try to roll twelve often conflicting design objectives into one, it just ends up mush.
You end up with: Massively single player with large overland that's never used while people solo instances and rush to reach endgame where they complain about multiplayer conent, and leveling that's too slow. And that doesn't even mention pvp or storyline features :-).
I played EQ from release for 1 year. Not a good game compared to modern MMOs. Camping, trains, long boat rides, staring at spell book, no AH, all the stuff i can do without.
Sooooo basically anything that promotes immersion?
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Well, not good for you, but some like those things. But we both already know that.
Off topic, have you tried Path of Exile yet?
I know its not an MMO even in the least bit. But I have been enjoing path of exile. And at least it is totally F2P. The store stuff they announced isn't a hinderance for a non-mmo style game. One of my buddies who loves (or should I say oved d3), but preferred D2 is really enjoying the game. We have both taken a break from the beta though so we don't ruin it for ourselves upon launch.
*edit* - I only brought it up because I think Narius would jump all over a game like this.
I very much recommend this game, but why not try it yourself? Open Beta starts January 23rd.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I hope you are aware that such a thing does not exist.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Well mail me the key and ill try it out mad
It does but only to those who want to be apart of it.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Well put Meddyck! I remember in EQOA i could sit for 10 hours and grind the same mob and feel so accomplished by the 2 or 3 levels i got that day. Now-a-days I couldn't make it through 1 hour of actual conent before I get bored. I feel games need to bring back purpose. Adrenline mixed with desire mixed with persistance mixed with accomplishment is the concaution needed to produce euphoria.. the same kind of euphoria that drove us all in the early years. I really hope we can bring that back.