What happened to Diversity?

SchroesCat

Greetings,

I can't believe someone is picking up the honorable name of Neverwinternights which stands for a unique approach to MMORPGs and missing out on the one and only thing that made this approach so unique: "Diversity"

It enabled fans of the general genre to adapt the game to their own needs, and it enabled people that just wanted to play a game to have a realistic chance of finding a module, regular campaign or Persistant World that comes close to their own favourite playstyle. How? By allowing Diversity.

The way Neverwinter seems to go is "just another MMORPG". From what I have gathered it seems to cater to something inbetween DDO and Guild Wars, with the added functionality of integrating community-created content.
With only one PW, the content that can be created seems like a tight-jacket though.

Let's see what different PWs (Persistant Worlds) offered to their respective communities:

1. unique rules how game mechanics work

influencing overall difficulty, death-settings, custom classes and -races, magic-balance, overall setting, low-magic vs. high-magic, character progression speed, .... (the list goes on nearly infinitely)

2. unique rules of conduct

A big issue, I think. Just take the eternal debates about roleplay vs. no-roleplay (and the ever-hot debate about How to roleplay. How to adress griefing and breach of the rules of conduct. How, when and under which circumstances to PvP. Mature content, etc... (another endless list)

3. custom content and -add-ons.

I am sub-summarizing things as custom musics, portrait packs, clothes-hacks and the such here.

If cleverly undertaken, I can see points 2 and 3 from above finding its way into Neverwinter's concept. But 1? No way without different PWs. And since (1) has a great influence on the overall athmosphere, Neverwinter will have no other option than to stride some "golden middle-path", hoping to attract a large enough player base to get the economics right. And it will be just that: Another game in the middle grounds of MMORPGs.

I know they won't get me hooked to anything like that.

Here's food for thought for the developpers:

What is there to fear about giving the cats that buy your game what made NWN so outstanding:

• A DM-Client
• The possibility to create their own PWs and fiddle with just about everything regarding game mechanics

You could offer the mainstream cats your PW, and allow the individualists and creative minds their own individual PWs. It's not all about playing. For many players of the NWN universe important points were: a.) Creating something unique, b.) Telling unique stories (with the help of the DM client) that made the game worthwhile.
Regarding player numbers, whichever "golden-middle-path" Neverwinter tries to serve, it will only attract a fraction of the potential player base: Those fitting into that corridor. To get the masses rallying, the key-word is - again - Diversity. Let the community sort itself.

Financial-wise I am sure cats would pay for having that opportunity. And I see nothing wrong with that. People pay and suscribe for playing games. Why not pay and suscribe for having a platform where to create your own worlds?

Why not do it the "Crowdsourcing-Way" and, e.g.:
Allow cats to create their own PWs (for a fee, of course), AND allow those cats to charge other cats money for playing on them? (Or let them play for free, as it suits them). Let others earn money with your product? Hell yeah, as long as you are earning too! The more subscriptions / sold games, the better for you, or not?

The game distributor will ALWAYS be the winner. Sold games, and monthly fees.

... it's diversity, man!

The winner will be whoever offers the platform.

mgilbrtsn

Get ready

azzamasin

Theres only so much you can do within a framework of an MMO set on someone else's server.  I think the Foundry system is pretty damn tight.

 

Sounds liek you want a single player NWN revamped, which offers a bit more freedom then a multiplayer MMO.  Nothing wrong with this, you loose some freedoms but gain a million other features that make an MMO, IMO, More fun then any single player or coop game ever could.  If it bothers you, i suggest you not post on an MMORPG forum as I doubt you'd get much sympathy except from the haters and trolls agreeing with you to spite any fans of the game.

SchroesCat

Originally posted by azzamasin

[1] Theres only so much you can do within a framework of an MMO set on someone else's server.  I think the Foundry system is pretty damn tight.

 [2] Sounds liek you want a single player NWN revamped, which offers a bit more freedom then a multiplayer MMO.  

(1) That is what I am talking about. And that was not the concept of NWN (1). People hosted their own servers. With custom [EVERYTHING].

(2) I don't even know the single player campaign in its entirety. I got bored somewhere inbetween of playing it. Single player was not the strength of NWN (1). The power of NWN 1 was to hit gamespy or google and find a PW that caters to your preferences. Whatever it is, that you like to see. Since the concept of the game gave fans the power to build their own servers and worlds, you would find all kinds of different worlds. And you had a realistic chance of finding a game (a world) whose play-style would come close to what you like.

azzamasin

Originally posted by SchroesCat

Originally posted by azzamasin

[1] Theres only so much you can do within a framework of an MMO set on someone else's server.  I think the Foundry system is pretty damn tight.

 [2] Sounds liek you want a single player NWN revamped, which offers a bit more freedom then a multiplayer MMO.  

(1) That is what I am talking about. And that was not the concept of NWN (1). People hosted their own servers. With custom [EVERYTHING].

(2) I don't even know the single player campaign in its entirety. I got bored somewhere inbetween of playing it. Single player was not the strength of NWN (1). The power of NWN 1 was to hit gamespy or google and find a PW that caters to your preferences. Whatever it is, that you like to see. Since the concept of the game gave fans the power to build their own servers and worlds, you would find all kinds of different worlds. And you had a realistic chance of finding a game (a world) whose play-style would come close to what you like.

NWO is not the spiritual successor to NWN, it is an action MMO set in the Forgotten Realms universe with an innovative user generated content creation system.  Is it simialr to NWN?  In some ways, but in most ways it is not.  Again I understand your apprehension but this isnt Never Winter Nights 3, it is Neverwinter the MMO.  Huge differences.

koboldfodder

Both Cryptic and Perfect World have a hand in Neverwinter.  If you have ever played a Cryptic game or a PW game, you would know that what you are asking for will never happen.

 

All Cryptic games have a few things in common.  They are all easy to play.  They design it so that new players can figure it out right away.  Champions Online, City of Heroes, Star Trek Online and Neverwinter all basically look at play the same.  COH is (or was) a much older game but it has all the hallmarks of a Cryptic game.  All of them have a superior character creation system, which is usually the best part of the games.  I could spend hours making characters in Champions Online, COH and STO.  I always seemed to have more fun making the characters then playing them.

 

Nothing is very complex in any Cryptic game.  I think the most complex "system" in those games is the Invention Origins system from COH and that really was not that hard to play and figure out. 

 

There is not a lot of reading in any Cryptic game.  While the IP may have a massive amount of lore (STO) the actual game lacks lore.

 

Basically, Cryptic wants you log on and get something done with your character in an hour or two.  Log on, do the usual daily missions found in themepark MMOs and that is about it.

 

Perfect World brings the cash shop into the mix.  The make the game free to play, but they handcuff your character so you start thinking about spending money.  PWE, even more so than Turbine, hammers you over the head with cash shop things.  Turbine's LOTRO has lockboxes where you need to spend money to get keys to unlock them.  PWE is borderline pathological in it's approach to the lockbox.  Anyone who plays STO can vouch for their greediness. 

 

PWE share the same gaming values that Cryptic has come to embrace.  Easy to play games, easy to learn, nothing too complex, nothing to in depth, get in and get something substantial done with your toon in a night. 

 

PWE also offers up to you a massive grind instead of actual content.  What they did to STO was divide up the end game content into separate grinds.  So you have to grind to unlock the ability to grind.....then you grind again for the final piece of loot you want.  It's depressing what they did to STO, which was never a great game to being with, but they really killed it.

 

PWE is in charge.  They have the overall, free to play design model they want to use and they just plug in Cryptics lite-design into it.

 

 

What bothers me, and you and pretty much every other MMO gamer, is that the specific IPs that Cryptic has acquired.  The Star Trek IP is a massive, lore driven galaxy that would make a great sandbox game.  Star Trek Online is a space/ground shooter where your Federation Captain is a mass murderer.  Neverwinter is the same way.  All that lore and possibility flushed down the drain because Cryptic and PWE want to create their little lite, F2P easy to play Guild Wars type of games.

 

One thing that PWE and Cryptic also have in common.  When you play their games, you sign and end up saying "what might have been"

AG-Vuk

Pretty much what Kobolfodder stated. I will add that the engine is limited and just an updated engine of the CoX one used. The graphics engine likewise followed this path. This game will be heavily invested in the C-shop.

 Cryptic takes pride in turning out games in 14 to 19 mo. Research dev of CO and STO. People will claim that PW made them go back and redesign  Neverwinter. Don't believe it for a second. Atarii neither had the funds or ability to deliver this game .All Cryptic development was put on hold pending sale and budgeting. It took the sale to PW to see movement. Then the rumor was floated, that it was so rushed and bad, PW made them redo it. If there's any doubt, Atarii today declared bankruptcy and will be liquidated.

The Foundry is touted as the basis for the game. Even if you minimally remember NWN , this will no even cover a 20 % of what you could do in NWN. Poor engine ( incidently designed with help from Microsoft for the console market , when Microsoft looked at the demands on their systems and presented Cryptic with the financial model, Cryptic withdrew from having it on X-box )  , poor game design , banking on fan enthusiasm to finance them . Just as they did with Marvel ---> which got pulled, leaving Cryptic to scramble for CO and STO.

SchroesCat

 

Cheers for the replies. This makes me think then: Don't you think that something like NWN (1) could be pulled off with the HeroEngine? (Maybe Unity3d). The HeroEngine guys seem to be serious... but it is still very technical. Much too technical for the average MORPG fan and creative cat.

Wouldn't something inbetween what HeroEngine and NWN (1) offered be an interesting project?

I just saw what enthusiasts are still doing for NWN 2. It is amazing art. And they do it for free. Now if you implemented something like an asset-store (á la App-Store). I know, Unity3d has it, and HeroEngine will soon release it. .. but if some clever cats now came up with a solid foundation, from where to extend?

A solid foundation that would enable average "not-into-indepth-MMO-code-and-3dsMax-graphics" to click-drag-and-drop together their very own MMORPG. 

I think this is a very interesting concept. And that the world is waiting for it.

Dihoru

Well the issue here is that we don't know what the long term goals for Neverwinter will be, at the moment they stated they will have a Foundry for player created content but considering this is a D&D setting and the fact that the devs could benefit a great deal from allowing players a greater degree of freedom in creating their content sometime down the line after the game is launched and exploits/bugs are squashed because it would give the developers time to work on the core set of features polishing them and adding in new ones while the playerbase basically satisfies its own hunger for content, content which will grow in quality as the features/tools/freedoms offered will increase... for the lack of a better word Neverwinter could if treated well be the ultimate themepark MMO but this given time, for the launch I think they're planning on a tighter package for the foundry to allow themselves breathing space for content creation, class creation/polishing,etc, need to get people playing the game long enough to allow DMs time to set up their sadistic wonde... I mean wonderous adventures :P

David_Lopan

OP, I feel you. Luckly the original NWN is still going strong. IMHO NWN only needs a gfx and server client update in my opinion. That game is still magic

Thillian

Originally posted by SchroesCat
Greetings,

I can't believe someone is picking up the honorable name of Neverwinternights which stands for a unique approach to MMORPGs and missing out on the one and only thing that made this approach so unique: "Diversity"

 

What are you talking about? Neverwinter Nights was the first graphic MMORPG ever created in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

You spent the rest of the post talking about Neverwinter Nights made by Bioware in 2001. THe original Neverwinter Nights, however, is a game from 1991.

It was actually Bioware's "remake" of Neverwinter Nights that totally ruined off the vision of the ORIGINAL Neverwinter Nights from 1991. So what are you referring to in your original post? 

David_Lopan

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by SchroesCat
Greetings,

I can't believe someone is picking up the honorable name of Neverwinternights which stands for a unique approach to MMORPGs and missing out on the one and only thing that made this approach so unique: "Diversity"

 

What are you talking about? Neverwinter Nights was the first graphic MMORPG ever created in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

You spent the rest of the post talking about Neverwinter Nights made by Bioware in 2001. THe original Neverwinter Nights, however, is a game from 1991.

So the Bioware "remake" of Neverwinter Nights was totally off of the original vision from 1991. Why don't you start a thread about how Bioware derailed and ruined the ACTUAL SSI name Neverwinter Nights from 1991?

   You must be joking. You cant make anything in the SSI version or GM. Bioware brought the table top game to the computer. No one else has tried. Seriously.

Thillian

Originally posted by Aquazen

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by SchroesCat
Greetings,

I can't believe someone is picking up the honorable name of Neverwinternights which stands for a unique approach to MMORPGs and missing out on the one and only thing that made this approach so unique: "Diversity"

 

What are you talking about? Neverwinter Nights was the first graphic MMORPG ever created in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

You spent the rest of the post talking about Neverwinter Nights made by Bioware in 2001. THe original Neverwinter Nights, however, is a game from 1991.

So the Bioware "remake" of Neverwinter Nights was totally off of the original vision from 1991. Why don't you start a thread about how Bioware derailed and ruined the ACTUAL SSI name Neverwinter Nights from 1991?

   You must be joking. You cant make anything in the SSI version or GM. Bioware brought the table top game to the computer. No one else has tried. Seriously.

Try to understand what I'm trying to say here.

The OP is reasoning that Cryptic is ruining the name of Neverwinter Nights, because it isn't true to the original. Which he thought is the Bioware's version, which obviously isnt' true. In fact, the Cryptic version might be closer to the Original Neverwinter Nights (released in 1991), than the Bioware version of Neverwinter Nights released in 2001.

David_Lopan

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by Aquazen

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by SchroesCat
Greetings,

I can't believe someone is picking up the honorable name of Neverwinternights which stands for a unique approach to MMORPGs and missing out on the one and only thing that made this approach so unique: "Diversity"

 

What are you talking about? Neverwinter Nights was the first graphic MMORPG ever created in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

You spent the rest of the post talking about Neverwinter Nights made by Bioware in 2001. THe original Neverwinter Nights, however, is a game from 1991.

So the Bioware "remake" of Neverwinter Nights was totally off of the original vision from 1991. Why don't you start a thread about how Bioware derailed and ruined the ACTUAL SSI name Neverwinter Nights from 1991?

   You must be joking. You cant make anything in the SSI version or GM. Bioware brought the table top game to the computer. No one else has tried. Seriously.

Try to understand what I'm trying to say here.

The OP is reasoning that Cryptic is ruining the name of Neverwinter Nights, because it isn't true to the original. Which he thought is the Bioware's version, which obviously isnt' true. In fact, the Cryptic version might be closer to the Original Neverwinter Nights (released in 1991), than the Bioware version of Neverwinter Nights released in 2001.

   True, but the OP was talking about diversity no....

Thillian

Originally posted by Aquazen

 

   True, but the OP was talking about diversity no....

No, he's talking about the "honorable name of Neverwinternights" in his first sentence. Everything else is then somewhat unimportant, since the original Neverwinter Nights game from 1991 had absolutely nothing to do with the Bioware version from 2001. So the "honorable name" was already ruined by Bioware.

SchroesCat

Funny signature, Thillian. Might wanna apply it to your own way of thinking. If we dig back deeply into the history of mankind, I bet there was some other cat, somewhere, somehow, at one point in time, that uttered the word(s) "neverwinter". But that is obviously not my concern. I am talking about a concept. 

Something you seem to have failed to catch, since you apparently got stuck on the first words. But hey, happy trolling!

Zebular

I think the problem is that many are believing that Neverwinter Online is going to be NWN3 or that it is even based off of the previous two Neverwinter Nights titles. I am sorry to have to say this but those who think this are wrong. Neverwinter Online is a stand-alone game, and more than that... it is an MMO.

It is NOT based off of the Neverwinter Nights series. The game's title doesn't even have "nights" in it. It is either "Neverwinter," "Neverwinter Online," or just "NWO."

What it is based off of though is the Neverwinter Saga novels by R.A. Salvatore and the 4th Edition Neverwinter Campaign Setting for Dungeons & Dragons' Forgotten Realms by Wizards of the Coast.

Those that continue to overlook this and continue to wish and believe this is supposed to be NWN3, you have been misinformed or do not have all the facts.

 

Now you know, so spread the knowledge and defeat the darkness!

gillrmn

Originally posted by Thillian

...

Try to understand what I'm trying to say here.

The OP is reasoning that Cryptic is ruining the name of Neverwinter Nights, because it isn't true to the original. Which he thought is the Bioware's version, which obviously isnt' true. In fact, the Cryptic version might be closer to the Original Neverwinter Nights (released in 1991), than the Bioware version of Neverwinter Nights released in 2001.

Right on Thillian.

Very nice observation. D&D:Neverwinter is the first installment of its own series and is as close to "NWN series" as it is to "Baldur's Gate series" or "PS:torment series".

 

Also Thillian I am amazed at your knowledge. Very few people know about Neverwinter Online game of 1991. I salute fellow D&D nerd.

*salutes*

gillrmn

Originally posted by Dihoru
Well the issue here is that we don't know what the long term goals for Neverwinter will be, at the moment they stated they will have a Foundry for player created content but considering this is a D&D setting and the fact that the devs could benefit a great deal from allowing players a greater degree of freedom in creating their content sometime down the line after the game is launched and exploits/bugs are squashed because it would give the developers time to work on the core set of features polishing them and adding in new ones while the playerbase basically satisfies its own hunger for content, content which will grow in quality as the features/tools/freedoms offered will increase... for the lack of a better word Neverwinter could if treated well be the ultimate themepark MMO but this given time, for the launch I think they're planning on a tighter package for the foundry to allow themselves breathing space for content creation, class creation/polishing,etc, need to get people playing the game long enough to allow DMs time to set up their sadistic wonde... I mean wonderous adventures :P

The devs vision for D&D:Neverwinter (also {perhaps inaccurately but popularly}referred to as Neverwinter Online by fans and devs alike) is very strong.

 

Is it good to have a strong vision? I am not sure.

First of all, the team of devs is a PnP fan with people among them who get toghether to play tabletop pnp like Warhammer and D&D. However they have always openly advocated that they are MMO makers (even when NW was to be co-op they expressed in interviews that they are MMO experts and would like to convert co-op to MMO down the timeline). They eventually got their wish to make an MMO alienating quite a large fanbase at official forums (who again were mainly NWN fans).

Next, they have always advocated that they want large playerbase to play their game - hence they will want to include everything standard MMOs have, like PvP, crafting, mounts, pets, companions etc.

Thirdly, they have time and again mentioned that lore is very important to them. They also have WotC officials to have everything they make have lore approval seal on it. Infact, unlike NWN, their story is actually canon - so it is more "Lorish" than NWN's OC would ever be.

Fourthly, about RP, their vision has been that RP depends on players not developers. However people on official forums differed and said devs content is important too for RP so they asked for suggestions. What happened to those suggestions? No information but recent video confirms that our one most popular suggestion was implemented - deities. Devs were of the opinion that alignments & deities don't have much to do in MMO so they will not be there due to their own reason but we differed very strongly on deity part. Now we see deities implemented so they did listen to us.

Lastly, about foundry - the idea comes not from NWN but from pnp DM campaigns and STOs foundry.

 

Now the advertising guys would like people to believe that it is NWN's succesor or something, and ignorant masses and media might get caught up in the hook - but you are no sheep right? Because now you know!

gillrmn

[mod edit]

What makes it more worthwhile not because I have been seen as a trouble-maker on cryptic forums for starting controvertial threads but also the fact that I was actually bashing cryptic's marketing team for not clearing up misinformation in previous post:-

"...Now the advertising guys would like people to believe that it is NWN's succesor or something, and ignorant masses and media might get caught up in the hook - ..."

But for sig, nah! Selune is my light and has always been. With her forgiving heart unlike Shar she tells me not to hold any grudges but to move on after having a laugh.

steamtank

I was so very excited when I first heard of NWO. As soon as I found out that players could not actually create a persistant world I decided to pass.

 

NWN was amazing with its persistant worlds. I played on 2 or 3 depending on my mood. I even got as far as becoming a DM and area designer on my favorite. It was awesome contributing to the world, seeing something I had made played and added onto by others.

 

Neverwinter without that is just... Never

ignore_me

PnP RPGs sort of mixed games and books. MMORPGs mixed Video Games with PnP. Now we are seeing the video game genes being dominant in the successive generations.

The amazing creativity you could flex in PnP is slowly dying.

gillrmn

Originally posted by steamtank

I was so very excited when I first heard of NWO. As soon as I found out that players could not actually create a persistant world I decided to pass.

 

NWN was amazing with its persistant worlds. I played on 2 or 3 depending on my mood. I even got as far as becoming a DM and area designer on my favorite. It was awesome contributing to the world, seeing something I had made played and added onto by others.

 

Neverwinter without that is just... Never

You are right, no persistant world at launch - it is in devs wishlist. Upon further enquiry wishlist means it will take a long time and it is a HUGE maybe.

 

However, Dungeons and Dragons:Neverwinter has nothing to do with NWN series. If you are looking for NWN3 you are fooling youself looking into this game.

 

This is a D&D canon game based on 4e ruleset closely integrated with PnP NW CG - which is an MMORPG with action combat. That is what it is - and what I am and others trying to say.

MadDemon64

Originally posted by steamtank

I was so very excited when I first heard of NWO. As soon as I found out that players could not actually create a persistant world I decided to pass.

 

NWN was amazing with its persistant worlds. I played on 2 or 3 depending on my mood. I even got as far as becoming a DM and area designer on my favorite. It was awesome contributing to the world, seeing something I had made played and added onto by others.

 

Neverwinter without that is just... Never

Well then, I will mark you down for "Never playing Phantasy Star Online 2" as well.