Playing TSW has been the richest PvE experience I've ever had in a game, from a story, questing and atmosphere perspective it blows the competition out of the water as far as I'm concerned. I don't PvP so have no comment to make on that, the combat though does have its flaws, the animations have improved since release but it still misses that feeling of connecting, there's little weight to it. A user over on the official forum used RP to get over that one: We're not hitting with blades and bullets, we're hitting with our Anima. That doesn't work for all of us though I'd still like to see improvement.
Skill system is great, yes some skills overlap, that's inevitable with this kind of system, otherwise using different weapons would be either gimp or over powering. The thing with it is that it gives you plenty of choice in how to approach encounters and build decks to meet different situations, you're never locked in to a role or profession. It uses the trinity system, that's fine, it maybe a little tired but it does the job.
I think, from a PvE/Story perspective it does an absolutely amazing job.
This is not a good game, it's a niche game and for people that enjoy it fair enough. But just accept the fact that it has no major appeal.
I would think that most who enjoy this game are glad for it's niche appeal and could care less about being the most popular kid on the block. There are more than enough MMOs out there that cater to the lowest common denominator. Sorry that TSW wasn't another boring level and text based easy mode game for the ADD crowd. For the rest of us, games like these are a blessing.
Here are some of the big myths I see being thrown out about TSW:
The combat "sucks" (left intentially vague, because that's the usual amount of detail)
It's a grindfest at endgame
Only one raid, so there is no endgame (heh.)
Nothing special about the investigations -- you just Google the answer
Nightmare dungeons are full of elitist jerks, and newbies are never welcome; the community "sucks"
You can finish all the content in 3 days
It's full of kill X rats quests, just like any other MMO
PvP is hopeless
Did I miss anything? ;D
Myths? Half of these are stone cold facts.
PvP is horrible, it IS hopeless, pointless and just a laughable and frustrating experience in it's current form (you have to laugh at how bad it is).
I love TSW's pve, the missions are ace, the setting is really well done but there is no way anyone can defend the pvp, it's awful. Harping on about potential and how no mmo's do pvp well in their first year is utter nonsense and completely irrelevant, justify this statement or stop making such claims.
Endgame isn't exactly a grindfest in the traditional sense, it's more an escalator you ride for no reason other than to get to the next level, which is exactly the same as the previous level save for a few extremely minor additions and shinier kit. There is no grind in the conventional sense, it's like grinding without the grind but with a comparable time sink....hard to explain really.
There is no end game in TSW, it's just more of the same over and over. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it's the truth.
It IS full of "kill X" "go to Y" missions, to claim otherwise is a straight-out lie. Sure it has some great storyline missions, some awesome lore missions and the investigation missions, but it is still packed full of the generic mmo staples.
As for finishing the content in 3 days, yep thats a load of baloney, takes most players 2-3 months to complete everything the game has to offer.
Investigations are amazing, but yes many people will just run to youtube or google for the solutions, shame really.
Combat sucks, well thats a matter of opinion, i quite like the combat in TSW but it gets repetitive and boring really fast. Worse still certain builds are simply too good not to use for tanking, healing and DPS. For a game with so many possibilities for builds, the effectiveness of certain skills and combinations renders this mute quickly, not every build is viable for high end, it's a horrible truth. Reality is you can play with builds but eventually you go back to the same basic abilities because they are just so damned good.
Nightmare dungeon PUG's certainly have their fair share of elitist jerks, but obviously not everyone is like this, just most of the more vocal PUG players.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Well, now since we have a conversation going, let me go ahead and put down my own take. I’ll put in the bad with the good, but, there’s no doubt I love this game, and I’ll argue any blanket, overly generalized statement about TSW. They are called myths because they don’t tell the whole story.
The badge-carrying Funcom Haters (I’m looking at you fallenlords and gamesrfun), can ignore the post and continue trolling your absolutes about Funcom to your Funcom-hater audience. For those who actually have an open mind, well here goes – just skip to the section you want if you don’t want to read the whole tl;dr!
“The combat sucks. The combat is clunky.”
Apart from the people who played 1 hour in beta and say this, what most people are talking about here are the variety and differentiation in animations, the sound effects, and the feedback and reaction of mobs and toons while in combat. The truth is that the animations are good – I actually feel really heroic while battling it out with my blades/chaos build vs. the cultists and mummies and ghouls that roam the landscape. Fire off a hot bolt with the Quantum Brace, use Chaotic Pull to reign something in, lay down an Impair with Stunning Swirl, then scorch the earth with Reality Fracture. It feels damn good. The movement, the dodging, the getting down in health when it's a tough opponent – finally taking him down (barely). Combat is challenging and fun -- it’s not an FPS, but few MMOs are.
But many feel there needs to be more variety and differentiation between the abilities on the wheel as well as more “connection” to the character during the combat. This comes from some long threads on the TSW forums, where it was really necessary to pry out the details from the “combat sucks” people, who don’t seem to know how to articulate their dissatisfaction. While I agree it could be even better, there’s nothing here that warrants a blanket “combat sucks.”
“The combat is just a bunch of button mashing, builder/consumer style”
Combat in TSW is different, has a bit of a learning curve, and requires more study than many MMOs. You can equip 2 (3 with an aux) weapons, but you also have the entire pool of weapons types (9 + 3 aux) currently) and abilities (over 500) at your disposal, and can eventually have abilities unlocked in ALL of them. However, what many people do is get their one deck built, and then stick with it through the entire game, basically giving up the freedom they have to try out new weapons and abilities. Or they just stick the same types of abilities in the same slots in the name of “efficiency” and do the same thing over and over. It’s amazing how people ask for freedom, but when they get it, they revert to their comfortable patterns. There are other special abilities that are not builder/consumers, and there are plenty of ways to mix up your rotation, your weapons, and your entire role – any player can dps, tank or heal, and anything in between. While you are limited to 7 active and 7 passive equipped slots, players have a pool of over 500 abilities they can switch up within that deck.
Bottom line: Animations are decent, and could be even better with some additional variety and tweaks to the animation engine. The dev team has committed to improving this. The ability wheel and the variety of builds you can make are very deep. I know of no other game that allows you to create as many variations in your equipped build, and give you the complete freedom to create awesome (or sucky) decks. With the freedom you get from TSW, you also have the learning curve difficulty in deciding what to do.
“PvP is Hopeless”
The truth is that it’s a work in progress, but far from hopeless. Here are the problems:
Balance issues in Fusang: the 3 factions – Dragon, Illuminati and Templar – tend to dominate their respective battlegroup (well, not the Dragon), and so the queue system to prevent complete dominance by one faction. The problem there is that the queue times for the dominant faction can be long. Dragon will always have an easy time getting into Fusang, and will almost always be the underdog
Queue times for the minigames: Getting into the minigames is difficult since there is no way to select all three (Fusang, El Dorado and Stonehenge) queues. It is very hard to get into El Dorado, although this is one of the most fun battlegrounds
The reward system has been nerfed due to the balance issues, and so currently it is difficult to progress in gear thru PvP
Matchmaking is missing from PvP is general, so grizzled vets are often thrown in against complete newbies and crushing them.
So that’s the bad news, but the reason PvP isn’t “hopeless” is that the devs are actually listening and making improvements:
The queue for PvP in the next Issue will include queues for all 3 arenas, so if you can’t get into Fusang, you can do El Dorado or Stonehenge. You’ll actually be able to queue for the minigames from within Fusang as well, freeing up players to get into the arenas more easily all around
The reward system will be returning once balancing and numbers are reviewed
Matchmaking and PvP ranks are being introduced in the next Issue, which will help with the gear and experience imbalances within the arenas.
While the current Fusang takes a while to get into, you can actually have fun matches today if you get similar experience and gear in at the same time (admittedly a roll of the dice.) But see the previous bullet.
New PvP features coming are open world flagged PvP events, where the factions compete over relics in the zones. PvE will be unaffected by the open world matches.
PvP also has the Fight Clubs for dueling and group matches. The community schedules monthly matches in these, with prizes handed out for the winners.
Bottom line: PvP, while imperfect, has enough improvements on the way that it cannot be said it is hopeless. And even with today’s imperfections, there are regulars who participate in PvP regularly, looking for good ways to match (and beat) the other guy’s deck. They are certainly vocal enough on the forums, so they care enough about PvP in this game to keep things going.
“There is only one raid – no endgame”
Endgame is the not just the New York City raid (yes, it’s hard), but add to that the 8 Nightmare Mode dungeons, which are as hard as just about any raid anywhere. Add to that the 8 Lairs, which are the open world bosses, and you have a decent amount of endgame content. Farming areas for QL10 geared characters looking for signets are available in most of the zones.
“Puzzle raids” are something they are looking at in future updates, so more endgame to come.
Bottom line: There’s plenty to do at the high end of the game for those power gamers. But even if you go through all that content, the game is B2P, so take a break and come back later if you want!
“Endgame is nothing but a grindfest”
Well, the grinding is completely optional. If you don’t feel like doing the same nightmare dungeon over and over, don’t! People do these primarily for the incremental gear improvements at high levels, but since progression pushes out to more horizontal at those levels, you’ll only get modest upgrades. Quality Level (QL) 10.5 is the highest available currently, but if that’s the way you progress, go for it. TSW is better than most games at ensuring that gear alone won’t win everything for you – you also have to have created a good set of decks for use in different situations, so while gear is good, you can still get owned if you have created a sucky deck.
Bottom Line: Some people like grind, some don’t – TSW has it if you want it, but it’s not mandatory.
“It’s full of kill X quests, just like any other MMO”
There are kill X quests in the game, but they are not as prevalent as in other games, to the point where they are almost a nice break from the thinking quests. And even with the kill X quests, you may have other obstacles you have to work around before you can get your numbers. Nothing in TSW is quite as straightforward as it seems. You may have to figure out how to remove a buff before you can tackle a particular mob, or you’ll get your butt handed to you. There is an element of thought in all aspects of TSW that is largely missing from other MMOs.
Bottom Line: There are kill X quests, but they are not overpowering, and all the missions have a little something different than your standard MMO quest.
“The investigations missions are nothing special – just Google the answer”
Well, why do anything then? Get someone else to play the game for you while you’re at it! The investigations are there to challenge your brain and possibly teach you a little something along the way. Plus they are fun – the rush from figuring out a tough puzzle on your own is very similar to beating a tough boss, and it’s one of the most innovative aspects of the game. Translate some Egyptian hieroglyphs, figure out the reference to a Bible passage, unlock the secret door given clues from a passage in an Edgar Allen Poe novel. If you hate this sort of thing in an MMO, then I would definitely give the game a pass, but if you have always liked ciphers, puzzled and Myst-like gameplay, TSW does an excellent job of challenging you.
Bottom Line: Investigations are fantastic and something that’s been missing from the MMO genre.
“You can finish all the content in 4 days”
Sure. You can finish it all if you play 24x7 and Google all the walkthrus. Or just farm all the stuff and skip all the content and go straight to endgame. If you are a content locust, or hate missions or story, I’d recommend staying away. This is a PvE game with some of the best story and atmosphere around – if you want to trash all that on your way to endgame, be my guest, but don’t diss it for the people who like the journey.
For those counting though, there are approx. 60 missions each in 8 zones with each missions ranging from 1-6 tiers, each tier being a significant step. Plus 8 dungeons (normal, elite and nightmare mode), 8 Lairs, 1 Raid, RP content with the Albion Theater. Tokyo is coming in 2013.
Bottom line:There is plenty of interesting stuff to do as long as you slow down long enough to enjoy it.
Nightmare dungeons are full of elitist jerks, and newbies are never welcome; the community "sucks"
There are elitist jerks in every MMO, and TSW is no exception (especially in Agartha). What is different, however, is that the TSW community actually has cabals and groups who are open to newbies and casuals to do things like nightmares. General chat is filled with helpful people explaining stuff to new people without the attitude. Checkout the noobmares group on the forums if you are looking to start up nightmare dungeons and get your feet wet.
Bottom line: If you raise your hand and ask to do casual or newbie stuff, there are folks who will respond.
I would think that most who enjoy this game are glad for it's niche appeal and could care less about being the most popular kid on the block. There are more than enough MMOs out there that cater to the lowest common denominator. Sorry that TSW wasn't another boring level and text based easy mode game for the ADD crowd. For the rest of us, games like these are a blessing.
Fair enough it being niche, if that was the aim. But Funcom went out to make a mainstream MMO with major appeal. It didn't work, as a result the company is suffering and has had to alter it's whole strategy.
Threads like this dispel no myths, people have played the game. The 'majority' of people interested in MMO's didn't like the game. No innovation, dull gameplay, nothing special about the game at all. Just a lot of reworked principles based loosely on a Lovecraftian themed backdrop that is about as scary as a cuddly teddy bear. It pushes no boundaries, has mediocre industry reviews and is nothing more than an 'average' game.
I would think that most who enjoy this game are glad for it's niche appeal and could care less about being the most popular kid on the block. There are more than enough MMOs out there that cater to the lowest common denominator. Sorry that TSW wasn't another boring level and text based easy mode game for the ADD crowd. For the rest of us, games like these are a blessing.
Fair enough it being niche, if that was the aim. But Funcom went out to make a mainstream MMO with major appeal. It didn't work, as a result the company is suffering and has had to alter it's whole strategy.
Threads like this dispel no myths, people have played the game. The 'majority' of people interested in MMO's didn't like the game. No innovation, dull gameplay, nothing special about the game at all. Just a lot of reworked principles based loosely on a Lovecraftian themed backdrop that is about as scary as a cuddly teddy bear. It pushes no boundaries, has mediocre industry reviews and is nothing more than an 'average' game.
Plenty of innovation with thinking quests, no levels, the ability wheel, and the openness to equip every weapon and ability in the game. Good reviews, both from mainstream press and from users (Metacritic Users 8.2):
Funcom actually blamed the poor performance of TSW on the initial Metacritic score. For it now to be used in a promotional vain is quite bizarre. They even blamed the drop in share price on Metacritic. The fact it's improved since probably means somebody, looking at nobody on here in particular, has been very active to bump it up.
Both IGN and Gamespot give TSW a very average score, 7.0 and 7.5 respectively.
Awards voted for by the press writing the articles, kind of brings into question how much advertising revenue they are receiving or any under the table deals. An award such as the Golden Joysticks where actual people vote I always find is a better true reflection. World of Tanks won best MMO, runners up League of Legends and Star Wars the Old Republic. TSW was on the list but alas won nothing.
Funcom actually blamed the poor performance of TSW on the initial Metacritic score. For it now to be used in a promotional vain is quite bizarre. They even blamed the drop in share price on Metacritic. The fact it's improved since probably means somebody, looking at nobody on here in particular, has been very active to bump it up.
Both IGN and Gamespot give TSW a very average score, 7.0 and 7.5 respectively.
Awards voted for by the press writing the articles, kind of brings into question how much advertising revenue they are receiving or any under the table deals. An award such as the Golden Joysticks where actual people vote I always find is a better true reflection. World of Tanks won best MMO, runners up League of Legends and Star Wars the Old Republic. TSW was on the list but alas won nothing.
Or maybe they just liked the game -- you should really play TSW, you'd love all the conspiracy theories. User scores on Metacritic were always high.
Oh, and please stop speaking for 'everyone.' While you may find it hard to believe, people actually do have minds and can decide for themselves.
Or maybe they just liked the game -- you should really play TSW, you'd love all the conspiracy theories. User scores on Metacritics were always high.
Oh, and please stop speaking for 'everyone.' While you may find it hard to believe, people actually do have minds and can decide for themselves.
I understand what your mean now about Metacritic, the user score is 8.2. But isn't the score that really matters is the 73 out 100 from the critics? I mean user scores are mostly biased anyway. For example I would score TSW about 3/10 but I have not bothered to go onto Metacritic. Isn't it the critic score the one that pops up on Steam and the one that most games are judged by overall? Not being a user I don't fully understand the scoring.
I have played TSW and I saw no innovation at all. It's a fair game, but nothing grabbed me. I consider myself an average gamer and I like the popular games. There are very few occasions when a gem of a game gets under the general gaming radar, TSW certainly isn't one of those. For those that like TSW then fine. But to make out like peoples original reasons for disliking the game are not justified. To term them as 'myths' makes it look like their reasons where fictitious which is just false. At the time the majority of the criticism was totally justified in my view. Nothing was imagined for example TSW might have a raid now but it didn't launch with a raid. So it wasn't a myth TSW had no raids, because it launched with no raids. A myth is something that has no determinable basis of fact.
And why am I speaking for everyone? If anything you are the one trying to dispel what you consider to be popular belief not me.
Or maybe they just liked the game -- you should really play TSW, you'd love all the conspiracy theories. User scores on Metacritics were always high.
Oh, and please stop speaking for 'everyone.' While you may find it hard to believe, people actually do have minds and can decide for themselves.
I understand what your mean now about Metacritic, the user score is 8.2. But isn't the score that really matters is the 73 out 100 from the critics? I mean user scores are mostly biased anyway. For example I would score TSW about 3/10 but I have not bothered to go onto Metacritic. Isn't it the critic score the one that pops up on Steam and the one that most games are judged by overall? Not being a user I don't fully understand the scoring.
I have played TSW and I saw no innovation at all. It's a fair game, but nothing grabbed me. I consider myself an average gamer and I like the popular games. There are very few occasions when a gem of a game gets under the general gaming radar, TSW certainly isn't one of those. For those that like TSW then fine. But to make out like peoples original reasons for disliking the game are not justified. To term them as 'myths' makes it look like their reasons where fictitious which is just false. At the time the majority of the criticism was totally justified in my view. Nothing was imagined for example TSW might have a raid now but it didn't launch with a raid. So it wasn't a myth TSW had no raids, because it launched with no raids. A myth is something that has no determinable basis of fact.
And why am I speaking for everyone? If anything you are the one trying to dispel what you consider to be popular belief not me.
I don't know -- how does any review matter? I tend to read the both the professional reviews and the user reviews -- the ones that are better written, or that make more sense to me tend to get more weight than badly written ones or reviews that feel as if the reviewer didn't do his or her homework. In a nutshell, if I feel the reviewer (professional or not) gave the game a fair shake, played the game for a decent amount of time, and really looked at it from all angles, then I'll take it into consideration. But most of all, I'll play the game and decide for myself. Rarely does a review postiive or negative prevent or impel me to play/not play a game. For those who really are on a tighter budget, I can see how reviews or free trials make a bigger difference.
Metacritic User Reviews I think are just as valid as any other, and I thought it was silly when Funcom pointed to the Metacritic reviews when they obviously got good reviews many other quarters -- I listed the real reasons I think TSW didn't do so well earlier in this thread. Since that time (and with more players giving the game real playing time and a fair shake), we're seeing more people saying things like "hidden gem" but hey, people have different priorities and tastes. One guy I posted he had tried on 3 separate occasions to get into it, and couldn't, but only when he forced himself to play a full day did he see how good the game was. TSW is not a grab-you-by-the-lapels kind of game -- it grows on you. The best quote I have seen:
To use a Hollywood analogy, GW2 is a summer blockbuster, and TSW is a Sundance festival indie film. The first is fun and light entertainment, and definitely worth seeing once. The second is much more than that, and worth watching over and over.
I like both GW2 and TSW myself, but I lean more to TSW because its a genre I love, and I needed a bit of a break from fantasy in general. /shrug
Myth to me means partial truth. In my tl;dr post above I put down plenty of the bad along with the good about TSW. I never said PvP was perfect, but I also say that there are good aspects to it. But what I really dislike are these memes that get started based on mob mentality -- sort of a piling on -- where users basically parrot what other people have said -- hence "myth." What I care about is giving the game a fair shake and telling both sides of the story. You played it an didn't like it -- fair enough. Maybe it's niche. That's okay too -- but to blanket say that the game wholly sucks (or is wholly perfect) does everyone a disservice.
How does any review matter? Reviews are a to most gamers a fundamental part of the buying process. Because the majority of time you buy a game without truly testing the finished product. Reviews are even more important when it comes to average games. Because they are harder to judge. Theoretically industry reviews of a product are suppose to be done in an impartial journalistic nature, though that doesn't always happen. User reviews are always biased.
Lets face it a game such as TSW is a marmite game. Some people are going to love the game while others hate it. Some games are just like that. it doesn't intrinsically make a game good or bad, but it does have a massive impact on perceptions. You play the game loving it you see a different world, to playing the game hating it. Doesn't mean either perception is wrong or right.
As far as I saw the so called myths were a checklist of what I found wrong with the game. I could add initial opening sequence that made me feel suicidal, I want to play a game not watch cut scenes. As for the Hollywood blockbuster, Sundance analogy. TSW was billed and launched as a Hollywood blockbuster, just because it bombed I am not so sure that it then fits in with the indie analogy. Failed blockbuster to my mind, and to to most of Funcoms share holders I would think.
I think if you remember TSW is a marmite game then everybody can have a better understanding of the general perceptions. In this issue I am totally biased, it would have had to have been something special like an a MMO Skyrim to have floated my boat. Because Funcom as a company had a lot of making up to do overall. This needed to be a special game and I think it missed the mark for a lot of people.
I would think that most who enjoy this game are glad for it's niche appeal and could care less about being the most popular kid on the block. There are more than enough MMOs out there that cater to the lowest common denominator. Sorry that TSW wasn't another boring level and text based easy mode game for the ADD crowd. For the rest of us, games like these are a blessing.
Fair enough it being niche, if that was the aim. But Funcom went out to make a mainstream MMO with major appeal. It didn't work, as a result the company is suffering and has had to alter it's whole strategy.
What about TSW makes you think that Funcom was trying to reach a mainstream audience? The complicated missions? The skill tree? The almost non-existent marketing for the game? Just what is it about TSW that makes you think Funcom was going for a mainstream MMO?
I would think that most who enjoy this game are glad for it's niche appeal and could care less about being the most popular kid on the block. There are more than enough MMOs out there that cater to the lowest common denominator. Sorry that TSW wasn't another boring level and text based easy mode game for the ADD crowd. For the rest of us, games like these are a blessing.
Fair enough it being niche, if that was the aim. But Funcom went out to make a mainstream MMO with major appeal. It didn't work, as a result the company is suffering and has had to alter it's whole strategy.
What about TSW makes you think that Funcom was trying to reach a mainstream audience? The complicated missions? The skill tree? The almost non-existent marketing for the game? Just what is it about TSW that makes you think Funcom was going for a mainstream MMO?
I'll agree with this one. Everything about TSW is a niche audience, but maybe they were thinking X-Files popularity would reach a large audience(?) Why they didn't scale their expectations to a more narrow audience is what has me puzzled. M Rating. Horror, not Fantasy. Thinking quests. Learning curve for the wheel. TSW has much more in common with an EVE demographic than a GW2, and realizing that earlier would have made a big difference.
Yep -- it's not the game (which is excellent), but rather the misplaced projections. Given the niche audience, the target should have been low-med initially with a growth strategy over time. The restructuring now is to bring that in line.
Yep -- it's not the game (which is excellent), but rather the misplaced projections. Given the niche audience, the target should have been low-med initially with a growth strategy over time. The restructuring now is to bring that in line.
Of course it's the game. If this game had been something special we wouldn't be talking here now, we would be commenting on the ten millionth copy sold. Where they went wrong was that had blind faith in Ragnar to deliver something amazing. He thought he done that and was somewhat stunned by the poor performance of TSW.
This restricting is a company in a mad panic trying to stay alive, not some strategic maneuvering to bring them in line with a new strategy for TSW. Still people don't seem to understand what is going on, Funcom have stated they are switching their focus to other types of games. Quick turnaround, less development time. They have to say they are going to still support the MMO's because that is their only revenue source at the moment. They start releasing some single player games that do well, or some mobile/tablet games you will see what happens with regards to the MMO side of the business.
The quests and the lore are fantastic. The dungeons are great.
The PvP? Its a joke. Lets just call it how it is. And the combat? Also not great.
Are there other games out there with combat that is just as bland? Yes, yes there are. But is it one of the better combat systems? No, not even close.
Like you said, it is just 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-1-1-1-1-1-2-3 and use a few of the other skills on long cooldowns. They may as well just turned 1 into an autoattack like GW2 did and then let you hit the other skills as needed.
Originally posted by evilastro The quests and the lore are fantastic. The dungeons are great.
The PvP? Its a joke. Lets just call it how it is. And the combat? Also not great.
Are there other games out there with combat that is just as bland? Yes, yes there are. But is it one of the better combat systems? No, not even close.
Like you said, it is just 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-1-1-1-1-1-2-3 and use a few of the other skills on long cooldowns. They may as well just turned 1 into an autoattack like GW2 did and then let you hit the other skills as needed.
Better combat than the root you to the spot while you cast games that are abundant for sure. It also makes you think about what's going to be useful and what isn't, I'll admit though it is easy to get a build that will see you through a lot of the game but I can guarantee they'll throw something at you that will force you to change. I can't see myself playing a game that roots you while casting again, which is the majority.
The quests and the lore are fantastic. The dungeons are great.
The PvP? Its a joke. Lets just call it how it is. And the combat? Also not great.
Are there other games out there with combat that is just as bland? Yes, yes there are. But is it one of the better combat systems? No, not even close.
Like you said, it is just 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-1-1-1-1-1-2-3 and use a few of the other skills on long cooldowns. They may as well just turned 1 into an autoattack like GW2 did and then let you hit the other skills as needed.
I think it would be fairer to say that *some* folks feel their rotation is repetitive, but others use different combos all the time. If you mix up your decks, it will definitely have a different feel -- dps feels much different than tanking than healing than aoe than single person. Not to mention the feels of the different weapons and abilities. I suppose if you are sticking with one deck for everything, never mixing it up, then yeah, the rotation could feel same-ish. But I think that's more due to player style than the game mechanics.
Yep -- it's not the game (which is excellent), but rather the misplaced projections. Given the niche audience, the target should have been low-med initially with a growth strategy over time. The restructuring now is to bring that in line.
The Q2 financial release from FC, noted they had sold less than 200k copies at the time, and had massively undersold as compared to expectations. They also noted spending $9.8 mil in advertising, including TSW launch expenses. They also wrote down $35 mil of the value of TSW and announced they were laying off 50% of the company and not making any more MMOs. None of that remotely suggests they got anything close to "mainstream numbers".
Well I got 'gifted' a copy of the game on Steam, somebody taking the mick. So trying not to look a gift horse in the mouth I thought I would give the game a whirl having not played it since beta.
After playing my first two hours I was totally underwhelmed. I don't see much if any progress in the game. Perhaps I can add-to or create some new myths.
Patcher lied to me. Needs to update 433mb 22k files, I stopped counting at 800mb and 23k files. It then failed with a 'Fatal Error' that all resources were not downloaded and I had to restart the patcher. That is great to see the old resource database issue straight off the bat, something that plagued AOC and don't think was ever resolved.
Character customization is very limited. What year are we in again? Did I miss some options, because my customization options seem to be sex, hair, facial hair (male), few clothes and height. AOC had more options and that was Age of Clones.
Opening sequence is still boring, like having insomnia.
Voice acting done badly is comical. I rolled a Templar and went to London. London felt like I was in the film Mary Poppins with every cockney having been trained personally by Dick Van Dyke. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...A very British view of things by people that are obviously not British or are just taking the p***.
Dual wielding pistols I thought might be fun, but pistols that vanish so I am dual wielding empty hands that fire bullets... is somewhat of a novelty. I had a beard like that it AOC. It vanished or changed to a different color. When changing zone. Ironically my pistols vanished from my hands on changing zone.
Join the debate, but fast moving Zombies are an acquired taste. Believing the dead are walking in the first place is a stretch, but they are running with rigor mortis having set in stretches it too far for a lot of people.
Combat does suck, it has no feel to it. I tested all the weapons a bit more this time before going out into the world. All felt the same...they had no feeling...button mash time...
I am playing on yet another machine this time 64bit OS laptop. Not expecting great performance at all, was even surprised that it ran so well. But what I still don't understand is why it's better to go for a higher default option, such a 'high' settings. Then tweaking things like shadows, gives you overall much better performance than selecting 'low' settings in the first place.
Where are the graphics options? That is the most dumbed down user interface I have seen. Warns you not to play with the settings unless you are an 'advanced user' then gives you as an 'advanced user' just a load of sliders. Which probably means the majority of the options need to be hacked in config files.
If I see a house with a door I want in feeds my exploration habit...the only open doors are open doors...or some doors that I interact with to sort of open...
Anyway, I have the game for 'life'. So when I feel like some more self-flagellation I can look forward to playing it. Thank goodness Dead Space 3 arrived yesterday or my sanity may of been lost forever.
There are plenty of good games out at the moment and TSW is one of them, and I enjoy playing it. I honestly think there are just to many games on the market and we as folk just dont have enough time to spare to play them all as much as we like.
Then comes along good old justification to make our selfs feel better about not playing the latter...
Anyway, I have the game for 'life'. So when I feel like some more self-flagellation I can look forward to playing it. Thank goodness Dead Space 3 arrived yesterday or my sanity may of been lost forever.
Since you like to quote metacritic from time to time have you seen the score for that game? I'm not talking about the critic score, but the user score. 5.6 xbox compared to TSW 8.2. Warms the heart to see players getting around the microtransactions in that game and making EA mad.
In al fairness play what you like. Hope it's fun for you like TSW is for me.
Okay, this is a repost from over on the Steam forums (not me), but I thought it summed up really well many of the preconceptions people have about TSW:
[Orignally posted by Mike Litoris]:
...
PvP doesn't exist and is broken:
Wrong. Just because people don't play your faction (cough - Dragon) doesn't mean it's dead, it just means you're not a part of the biggest of two factions enjoying it. Transfer to another server or change sides if it's what you're dying for.
This is highly objectionable to me. Apparently this guy is not a dragon. I am.
This is not an altaholic's game. It's a pia to roll a new character and go through all the same AP/SP grind again.
And abandoning the least populated faction to join one of the zergs only makes the problem worse. A 3-faction game with 2-factions that matter in pvp is broken. There is no way to hide that.
So I'm just going to criticize the little bit I quoted and leave it at that. But that right there is why some people think he's condescending.
The real answer is to roll more Dragons, and yes, switching from the underdog to being part of the zerg is the problem, not the solution. The limits on team ratios in Fusang prevent complete dominance now, but now the queues are longer for the higher pop factions. Dragons will get in quickly, so there's an incentive right there, just know you'll probably be outnumbered (just not as badly as previously.) I believe the February update will make it easier to get into El Dorado and Stonehenge for players waiting in the Fusang queue, and you'll also be able to queue for El Dorado and Stonehenge from inside Fusang.
Comments
Playing TSW has been the richest PvE experience I've ever had in a game, from a story, questing and atmosphere perspective it blows the competition out of the water as far as I'm concerned. I don't PvP so have no comment to make on that, the combat though does have its flaws, the animations have improved since release but it still misses that feeling of connecting, there's little weight to it. A user over on the official forum used RP to get over that one: We're not hitting with blades and bullets, we're hitting with our Anima. That doesn't work for all of us though
I'd still like to see improvement.
Skill system is great, yes some skills overlap, that's inevitable with this kind of system, otherwise using different weapons would be either gimp or over powering. The thing with it is that it gives you plenty of choice in how to approach encounters and build decks to meet different situations, you're never locked in to a role or profession. It uses the trinity system, that's fine, it maybe a little tired but it does the job.
I think, from a PvE/Story perspective it does an absolutely amazing job.
I would think that most who enjoy this game are glad for it's niche appeal and could care less about being the most popular kid on the block. There are more than enough MMOs out there that cater to the lowest common denominator. Sorry that TSW wasn't another boring level and text based easy mode game for the ADD crowd. For the rest of us, games like these are a blessing.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Myths? Half of these are stone cold facts.
PvP is horrible, it IS hopeless, pointless and just a laughable and frustrating experience in it's current form (you have to laugh at how bad it is).
I love TSW's pve, the missions are ace, the setting is really well done but there is no way anyone can defend the pvp, it's awful. Harping on about potential and how no mmo's do pvp well in their first year is utter nonsense and completely irrelevant, justify this statement or stop making such claims.
Endgame isn't exactly a grindfest in the traditional sense, it's more an escalator you ride for no reason other than to get to the next level, which is exactly the same as the previous level save for a few extremely minor additions and shinier kit. There is no grind in the conventional sense, it's like grinding without the grind but with a comparable time sink....hard to explain really.
There is no end game in TSW, it's just more of the same over and over. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it's the truth.
It IS full of "kill X" "go to Y" missions, to claim otherwise is a straight-out lie. Sure it has some great storyline missions, some awesome lore missions and the investigation missions, but it is still packed full of the generic mmo staples.
As for finishing the content in 3 days, yep thats a load of baloney, takes most players 2-3 months to complete everything the game has to offer.
Investigations are amazing, but yes many people will just run to youtube or google for the solutions, shame really.
Combat sucks, well thats a matter of opinion, i quite like the combat in TSW but it gets repetitive and boring really fast. Worse still certain builds are simply too good not to use for tanking, healing and DPS. For a game with so many possibilities for builds, the effectiveness of certain skills and combinations renders this mute quickly, not every build is viable for high end, it's a horrible truth. Reality is you can play with builds but eventually you go back to the same basic abilities because they are just so damned good.
Nightmare dungeon PUG's certainly have their fair share of elitist jerks, but obviously not everyone is like this, just most of the more vocal PUG players.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Well, now since we have a conversation going, let me go ahead and put down my own take. I’ll put in the bad with the good, but, there’s no doubt I love this game, and I’ll argue any blanket, overly generalized statement about TSW. They are called myths because they don’t tell the whole story.
The badge-carrying Funcom Haters (I’m looking at you fallenlords and gamesrfun), can ignore the post and continue trolling your absolutes about Funcom to your Funcom-hater audience. For those who actually have an open mind, well here goes – just skip to the section you want if you don’t want to read the whole tl;dr!
“The combat sucks. The combat is clunky.”
Apart from the people who played 1 hour in beta and say this, what most people are talking about here are the variety and differentiation in animations, the sound effects, and the feedback and reaction of mobs and toons while in combat. The truth is that the animations are good – I actually feel really heroic while battling it out with my blades/chaos build vs. the cultists and mummies and ghouls that roam the landscape. Fire off a hot bolt with the Quantum Brace, use Chaotic Pull to reign something in, lay down an Impair with Stunning Swirl, then scorch the earth with Reality Fracture. It feels damn good. The movement, the dodging, the getting down in health when it's a tough opponent – finally taking him down (barely). Combat is challenging and fun -- it’s not an FPS, but few MMOs are.
But many feel there needs to be more variety and differentiation between the abilities on the wheel as well as more “connection” to the character during the combat. This comes from some long threads on the TSW forums, where it was really necessary to pry out the details from the “combat sucks” people, who don’t seem to know how to articulate their dissatisfaction. While I agree it could be even better, there’s nothing here that warrants a blanket “combat sucks.”
“The combat is just a bunch of button mashing, builder/consumer style”
Combat in TSW is different, has a bit of a learning curve, and requires more study than many MMOs. You can equip 2 (3 with an aux) weapons, but you also have the entire pool of weapons types (9 + 3 aux) currently) and abilities (over 500) at your disposal, and can eventually have abilities unlocked in ALL of them. However, what many people do is get their one deck built, and then stick with it through the entire game, basically giving up the freedom they have to try out new weapons and abilities. Or they just stick the same types of abilities in the same slots in the name of “efficiency” and do the same thing over and over. It’s amazing how people ask for freedom, but when they get it, they revert to their comfortable patterns. There are other special abilities that are not builder/consumers, and there are plenty of ways to mix up your rotation, your weapons, and your entire role – any player can dps, tank or heal, and anything in between. While you are limited to 7 active and 7 passive equipped slots, players have a pool of over 500 abilities they can switch up within that deck.
Bottom line: Animations are decent, and could be even better with some additional variety and tweaks to the animation engine. The dev team has committed to improving this. The ability wheel and the variety of builds you can make are very deep. I know of no other game that allows you to create as many variations in your equipped build, and give you the complete freedom to create awesome (or sucky) decks. With the freedom you get from TSW, you also have the learning curve difficulty in deciding what to do.
“PvP is Hopeless”
The truth is that it’s a work in progress, but far from hopeless. Here are the problems:
So that’s the bad news, but the reason PvP isn’t “hopeless” is that the devs are actually listening and making improvements:
Bottom line: PvP, while imperfect, has enough improvements on the way that it cannot be said it is hopeless. And even with today’s imperfections, there are regulars who participate in PvP regularly, looking for good ways to match (and beat) the other guy’s deck. They are certainly vocal enough on the forums, so they care enough about PvP in this game to keep things going.
“There is only one raid – no endgame”
Endgame is the not just the New York City raid (yes, it’s hard), but add to that the 8 Nightmare Mode dungeons, which are as hard as just about any raid anywhere. Add to that the 8 Lairs, which are the open world bosses, and you have a decent amount of endgame content. Farming areas for QL10 geared characters looking for signets are available in most of the zones.
“Puzzle raids” are something they are looking at in future updates, so more endgame to come.
Bottom line: There’s plenty to do at the high end of the game for those power gamers. But even if you go through all that content, the game is B2P, so take a break and come back later if you want!
“Endgame is nothing but a grindfest”
Well, the grinding is completely optional. If you don’t feel like doing the same nightmare dungeon over and over, don’t! People do these primarily for the incremental gear improvements at high levels, but since progression pushes out to more horizontal at those levels, you’ll only get modest upgrades. Quality Level (QL) 10.5 is the highest available currently, but if that’s the way you progress, go for it. TSW is better than most games at ensuring that gear alone won’t win everything for you – you also have to have created a good set of decks for use in different situations, so while gear is good, you can still get owned if you have created a sucky deck.
Bottom Line: Some people like grind, some don’t – TSW has it if you want it, but it’s not mandatory.
“It’s full of kill X quests, just like any other MMO”
There are kill X quests in the game, but they are not as prevalent as in other games, to the point where they are almost a nice break from the thinking quests. And even with the kill X quests, you may have other obstacles you have to work around before you can get your numbers. Nothing in TSW is quite as straightforward as it seems. You may have to figure out how to remove a buff before you can tackle a particular mob, or you’ll get your butt handed to you. There is an element of thought in all aspects of TSW that is largely missing from other MMOs.
Bottom Line: There are kill X quests, but they are not overpowering, and all the missions have a little something different than your standard MMO quest.
“The investigations missions are nothing special – just Google the answer”
Well, why do anything then? Get someone else to play the game for you while you’re at it! The investigations are there to challenge your brain and possibly teach you a little something along the way. Plus they are fun – the rush from figuring out a tough puzzle on your own is very similar to beating a tough boss, and it’s one of the most innovative aspects of the game. Translate some Egyptian hieroglyphs, figure out the reference to a Bible passage, unlock the secret door given clues from a passage in an Edgar Allen Poe novel. If you hate this sort of thing in an MMO, then I would definitely give the game a pass, but if you have always liked ciphers, puzzled and Myst-like gameplay, TSW does an excellent job of challenging you.
Bottom Line: Investigations are fantastic and something that’s been missing from the MMO genre.
“You can finish all the content in 4 days”
Sure. You can finish it all if you play 24x7 and Google all the walkthrus. Or just farm all the stuff and skip all the content and go straight to endgame. If you are a content locust, or hate missions or story, I’d recommend staying away. This is a PvE game with some of the best story and atmosphere around – if you want to trash all that on your way to endgame, be my guest, but don’t diss it for the people who like the journey.
For those counting though, there are approx. 60 missions each in 8 zones with each missions ranging from 1-6 tiers, each tier being a significant step. Plus 8 dungeons (normal, elite and nightmare mode), 8 Lairs, 1 Raid, RP content with the Albion Theater. Tokyo is coming in 2013.
Bottom line:There is plenty of interesting stuff to do as long as you slow down long enough to enjoy it.
Nightmare dungeons are full of elitist jerks, and newbies are never welcome; the community "sucks"
There are elitist jerks in every MMO, and TSW is no exception (especially in Agartha). What is different, however, is that the TSW community actually has cabals and groups who are open to newbies and casuals to do things like nightmares. General chat is filled with helpful people explaining stuff to new people without the attitude. Checkout the noobmares group on the forums if you are looking to start up nightmare dungeons and get your feet wet.
Bottom line: If you raise your hand and ask to do casual or newbie stuff, there are folks who will respond.
Fair enough it being niche, if that was the aim. But Funcom went out to make a mainstream MMO with major appeal. It didn't work, as a result the company is suffering and has had to alter it's whole strategy.
Threads like this dispel no myths, people have played the game. The 'majority' of people interested in MMO's didn't like the game. No innovation, dull gameplay, nothing special about the game at all. Just a lot of reworked principles based loosely on a Lovecraftian themed backdrop that is about as scary as a cuddly teddy bear. It pushes no boundaries, has mediocre industry reviews and is nothing more than an 'average' game.
Plenty of innovation with thinking quests, no levels, the ability wheel, and the openness to equip every weapon and ability in the game. Good reviews, both from mainstream press and from users (Metacritic Users 8.2):
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/massivelys-best-of-2012-awards/
Again you are defending mediocrity.
Funcom actually blamed the poor performance of TSW on the initial Metacritic score. For it now to be used in a promotional vain is quite bizarre. They even blamed the drop in share price on Metacritic. The fact it's improved since probably means somebody, looking at nobody on here in particular, has been very active to bump it up.
Both IGN and Gamespot give TSW a very average score, 7.0 and 7.5 respectively.
Awards voted for by the press writing the articles, kind of brings into question how much advertising revenue they are receiving or any under the table deals. An award such as the Golden Joysticks where actual people vote I always find is a better true reflection. World of Tanks won best MMO, runners up League of Legends and Star Wars the Old Republic. TSW was on the list but alas won nothing.
Or maybe they just liked the game -- you should really play TSW, you'd love all the conspiracy theories. User scores on Metacritic were always high.
Oh, and please stop speaking for 'everyone.' While you may find it hard to believe, people actually do have minds and can decide for themselves.
I don't know -- how does any review matter? I tend to read the both the professional reviews and the user reviews -- the ones that are better written, or that make more sense to me tend to get more weight than badly written ones or reviews that feel as if the reviewer didn't do his or her homework. In a nutshell, if I feel the reviewer (professional or not) gave the game a fair shake, played the game for a decent amount of time, and really looked at it from all angles, then I'll take it into consideration. But most of all, I'll play the game and decide for myself. Rarely does a review postiive or negative prevent or impel me to play/not play a game. For those who really are on a tighter budget, I can see how reviews or free trials make a bigger difference.
Metacritic User Reviews I think are just as valid as any other, and I thought it was silly when Funcom pointed to the Metacritic reviews when they obviously got good reviews many other quarters -- I listed the real reasons I think TSW didn't do so well earlier in this thread. Since that time (and with more players giving the game real playing time and a fair shake), we're seeing more people saying things like "hidden gem" but hey, people have different priorities and tastes. One guy I posted he had tried on 3 separate occasions to get into it, and couldn't, but only when he forced himself to play a full day did he see how good the game was. TSW is not a grab-you-by-the-lapels kind of game -- it grows on you. The best quote I have seen:
To use a Hollywood analogy, GW2 is a summer blockbuster, and TSW is a Sundance festival indie film. The first is fun and light entertainment, and definitely worth seeing once. The second is much more than that, and worth watching over and over.
I like both GW2 and TSW myself, but I lean more to TSW because its a genre I love, and I needed a bit of a break from fantasy in general. /shrug
Myth to me means partial truth. In my tl;dr post above I put down plenty of the bad along with the good about TSW. I never said PvP was perfect, but I also say that there are good aspects to it. But what I really dislike are these memes that get started based on mob mentality -- sort of a piling on -- where users basically parrot what other people have said -- hence "myth." What I care about is giving the game a fair shake and telling both sides of the story. You played it an didn't like it -- fair enough. Maybe it's niche. That's okay too -- but to blanket say that the game wholly sucks (or is wholly perfect) does everyone a disservice.
What about TSW makes you think that Funcom was trying to reach a mainstream audience? The complicated missions? The skill tree? The almost non-existent marketing for the game? Just what is it about TSW that makes you think Funcom was going for a mainstream MMO?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I'll agree with this one. Everything about TSW is a niche audience, but maybe they were thinking X-Files popularity would reach a large audience(?) Why they didn't scale their expectations to a more narrow audience is what has me puzzled. M Rating. Horror, not Fantasy. Thinking quests. Learning curve for the wheel. TSW has much more in common with an EVE demographic than a GW2, and realizing that earlier would have made a big difference.
If this game and other Funcom games are so great why are they laying off folks? Bottom line is Funcom games are Hyped but lacking alot.
MAGA
In their own financial report Funcom projected TSW year one box sales between 1,050,000 and 1,365,000 and retention between 280,000 and 490,000.
( reference here)
Those sure seem like mainstream numbers to me.
Yep -- it's not the game (which is excellent), but rather the misplaced projections. Given the niche audience, the target should have been low-med initially with a growth strategy over time. The restructuring now is to bring that in line.
The quests and the lore are fantastic. The dungeons are great.
The PvP? Its a joke. Lets just call it how it is. And the combat? Also not great.
Are there other games out there with combat that is just as bland? Yes, yes there are. But is it one of the better combat systems? No, not even close.
Like you said, it is just 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-1-1-1-1-1-2-3 and use a few of the other skills on long cooldowns. They may as well just turned 1 into an autoattack like GW2 did and then let you hit the other skills as needed.
Better combat than the root you to the spot while you cast games that are abundant for sure. It also makes you think about what's going to be useful and what isn't, I'll admit though it is easy to get a build that will see you through a lot of the game but I can guarantee they'll throw something at you that will force you to change. I can't see myself playing a game that roots you while casting again, which is the majority.
I think it would be fairer to say that *some* folks feel their rotation is repetitive, but others use different combos all the time. If you mix up your decks, it will definitely have a different feel -- dps feels much different than tanking than healing than aoe than single person. Not to mention the feels of the different weapons and abilities. I suppose if you are sticking with one deck for everything, never mixing it up, then yeah, the rotation could feel same-ish. But I think that's more due to player style than the game mechanics.
In their own financial report Funcom projected TSW year one box sales between 1,050,000 and 1,365,000 and retention between 280,000 and 490,000.
( reference here)
Those sure seem like mainstream numbers to me.
Yep -- it's not the game (which is excellent), but rather the misplaced projections. Given the niche audience, the target should have been low-med initially with a growth strategy over time. The restructuring now is to bring that in line.
The Q2 financial release from FC, noted they had sold less than 200k copies at the time, and had massively undersold as compared to expectations. They also noted spending $9.8 mil in advertising, including TSW launch expenses. They also wrote down $35 mil of the value of TSW and announced they were laying off 50% of the company and not making any more MMOs. None of that remotely suggests they got anything close to "mainstream numbers".Well I got 'gifted' a copy of the game on Steam, somebody taking the mick. So trying not to look a gift horse in the mouth I thought I would give the game a whirl having not played it since beta.
After playing my first two hours I was totally underwhelmed. I don't see much if any progress in the game. Perhaps I can add-to or create some new myths.
There are plenty of good games out at the moment and TSW is one of them, and I enjoy playing it. I honestly think there are just to many games on the market and we as folk just dont have enough time to spare to play them all as much as we like.
Then comes along good old justification to make our selfs feel better about not playing the latter...
Since you like to quote metacritic from time to time have you seen the score for that game? I'm not talking about the critic score, but the user score. 5.6 xbox compared to TSW 8.2. Warms the heart to see players getting around the microtransactions in that game and making EA mad.
In al fairness play what you like. Hope it's fun for you like TSW is for me.
.. .... .- - . - .-. --- .-.. .-.. ... .-- .... --- .-. . .--. --- .-. - .-.-.-
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
The real answer is to roll more Dragons, and yes, switching from the underdog to being part of the zerg is the problem, not the solution. The limits on team ratios in Fusang prevent complete dominance now, but now the queues are longer for the higher pop factions. Dragons will get in quickly, so there's an incentive right there, just know you'll probably be outnumbered (just not as badly as previously.) I believe the February update will make it easier to get into El Dorado and Stonehenge for players waiting in the Fusang queue, and you'll also be able to queue for El Dorado and Stonehenge from inside Fusang.