Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Well, why do you think that this should work and/or be a viable argument and option, but the opposite, "go play a fps" should not?
Flame on!
Because it does not require anyone to change their game. If you say "go play a FPS" .. what if i want RPG combat?
The suggestion "If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper" does not require you to go to another form of gameplay, which you may not like.
In fact, it provides extra choices, which is good.
Arent you usually in favor of game jumping? Why is it bad suddenly?
And arguably, some fps in their choices and variability offer far more rpg elements than mmos these days...
Flame on!
No one says i won't play a good FPS.
But what you suggest is NOT game jumping .. but it is to lose the fun to play a game because of incovenient. In fact, my way is conducive to game jumping, because you can play the MMO, and then go for the FPS after you are done.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
You could, sure. But everyone would simply take the fastest, simplest route and ignore the other half. If that weren't the case than any other solution would be just as viable. Gamers have to be FORCED into a SPECIFIC path or they'll just take the simplest, quickest one and moan the whole way about one thing or another.
Like exploration. Games can have HUGE SPRAWLING worlds and gamers could love exploring, but if they're not rewarded for doing it ...eh, eff it.
That is one of the more basic disagreements, in terms of "take the easy route but pay for it, or not" vs "there is only one route".
One of the is unfortunately much easyer to do and less qq prone...
You could, sure. But everyone would simply take the fastest, simplest route and ignore the other half. If that weren't the case than any other solution would be just as viable. Gamers have to be FORCED into a SPECIFIC path or they'll just take the simplest, quickest one and moan the whole way about one thing or another.
Well, if both route exists, those who want inconvenience should have nothing to complain about. If they indeed choose the easy route, they have no ground to complain because, by their choice, they don't really want the inconvenient route.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
Lol thats pretty much the eternal struggle. People are saying make the game harder so I have fun, vs people saying leave the game alone so I have fun.
Sure...but I have said you can have both in them if done right. It's finding that balance that is the issue. Especially since most of the community is so whine prone.
You could, sure. But everyone would simply take the fastest, simplest route and ignore the other half. If that weren't the case than any other solution would be just as viable. Gamers have to be FORCED into a SPECIFIC path or they'll just take the simplest, quickest one and moan the whole way about one thing or another.
Like exploration. Games can have HUGE SPRAWLING worlds and gamers could love exploring, but if they're not rewarded for doing it ...eh, eff it.
That is a personal problem with people these days I feel...Self-entitlement.
I know I enjoy world exploration. Discovering things and appreciating the beauty of the world I am in. I don't have to be rewarded to feel it's worth the effort.
I have played many games with portal networks and other easy travel methods. Did I use them? Sure. Did I use them everytime?...absolutely not. I only really used them if a certain dungeon was being ran and we had limited time. I'm generally not in a hurry, I am not impatient, and I'm not one to need to feel like I should be treated like a special snowflake and called a "hero" and given rewards every 5 minutes.
Part of why I don't feel the same as a few people on here, nor care for most of the current MMORPG's on the market.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Well, why do you think that this should work and/or be a viable argument and option, but the opposite, "go play a fps" should not?
Flame on!
Because it does not require anyone to change their game. If you say "go play a FPS" .. what if i want RPG combat?
The suggestion "If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper" does not require you to go to another form of gameplay, which you may not like.
In fact, it provides extra choices, which is good.
Arent you usually in favor of game jumping? Why is it bad suddenly?
And arguably, some fps in their choices and variability offer far more rpg elements than mmos these days...
Flame on!
No one says i won't play a good FPS.
But what you suggest is NOT game jumping .. but it is to lose the fun to play a game because of incovenient. In fact, my way is conducive to game jumping, because you can play the MMO, and then go for the FPS after you are done.
Every option has its drawbacks, your that the player is gimping himself on purpose, the other that he plays a different game, both end in the same thing outside a idealised version of the player, that he stops playing the game.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
And I read carefully..you constantly contradict yourself however. You are saying give choice in this one thread...but nearly every other one, you are advocating for taking anything out that isn't fast fun and a feature you like. You almost never sound as though giving a choice is something you really truly approve of. And of all things...nearly always reference a Blizzard game...which are ALL about fast fun.
I feel in the end it comes down to worrying too much about what the other guy is doing. MMOs are less a community these days as they are a community of communities. Find folks with similar goals as yourself, set some handicaps for your groups/experiences, and have fun. There are apparently more than enough out there that it shouldn't be too hard to do. Unfortunately the inconvenience team seems to steadily be losing ground in the market and are nearing the point of having to do what soloists did in older games like EQ and make the game work for them somehow.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Flame on!
And why is that a bad suggestion really? Are the other guys not suggesting the same thing? You have to play the game my way, because thats how I like it.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Flame on!
What? Isn't choice always good? There is a choice of a teleport or talk.
If you "suffer" from walking, you don't like inconvenience and you can take the teleport like i do.
If you LIKE walking (and it is not inconvenient to you), take the walking option.
I have played many games with portal networks and other easy travel methods. Did I use them? Sure. Did I use them everytime?...absolutely not. I only really used them if a certain dungeon was being ran and we had limited time. I'm generally not in a hurry, I am not impatient, and I'm not one to need to feel like I should be treated like a special snowflake and called a "hero" and given rewards every 5 minutes.
Then what is the problem? You just demonstrated that fast travel is a choice. When you don't like it, you don't use it.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Flame on!
I get what he's saying just fine. I am pointing out this is a new tune he's trying to peddle after months and countless threads of a different tune. And I have been saying that exact thing for awhile now, and have had him shooting it down. But now it's suddenly agreeable.
And yet again...what you may find "inconvenient" or "suffering" is a personal problem...because some people find them enjoyable and fun because we are not in a huge hurry, or have ADD.
It's fine to have fast fun, it's ok to have portals for use..but to constantly hold the pitchfork to get rid of any other feature because you find it inconvenient or a suffering mechanism despite others enjoying them is just selfish. And I am talking beyond just fast travel. Like..making them all lobby games. Ring a bell Narius?
What? Isn't choice always good? There is a choice of a teleport or talk.
If you "suffer" from walking, you don't like inconvenience and you can take the teleport like i do.
If you LIKE walking (and it is not inconvenient to you), take the walking option.
Both you and I are happy. What is the problem?
LOL.
No, choice is not always good. If I'm in a big open world with hardly anyone in it (because everyone is teleporting) that takes away much of what makes a world interesting and fun; other players.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I have played many games with portal networks and other easy travel methods. Did I use them? Sure. Did I use them everytime?...absolutely not. I only really used them if a certain dungeon was being ran and we had limited time. I'm generally not in a hurry, I am not impatient, and I'm not one to need to feel like I should be treated like a special snowflake and called a "hero" and given rewards every 5 minutes.
Then what is the problem? You just demonstrated that fast travel is a choice. When you don't like it, you don't use it.
Do you want to take it away from others?
No. Read my post above this one. I just don't want them all lobby games like you constantly ask for. I recall you making a thread asking why even have a world and saying why not make them instanced and lobby games. Goes against your whole sudden "choice" movement.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Flame on!
What? Isn't choice always good? There is a choice of a teleport or talk.
If you "suffer" from walking, you don't like inconvenience and you can take the teleport like i do.
If you LIKE walking (and it is not inconvenient to you), take the walking option.
Both you and I are happy. What is the problem?
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
I have played many games with portal networks and other easy travel methods. Did I use them? Sure. Did I use them everytime?...absolutely not. I only really used them if a certain dungeon was being ran and we had limited time. I'm generally not in a hurry, I am not impatient, and I'm not one to need to feel like I should be treated like a special snowflake and called a "hero" and given rewards every 5 minutes.
Then what is the problem? You just demonstrated that fast travel is a choice. When you don't like it, you don't use it.
Do you want to take it away from others?
No. Read my post above this one. I just don't want them all lobby games like you constantly ask for. I recall you making a thread asking why even have a world and saying why not make them instanced and lobby games. Goes against your whole sudden "choice" movement.
Oh you read me wrong. In that thread, i was just musing that many current MMOs are lobby games. Isn't that true?
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?
Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?
If some people like it, then include it as an option.
So now tell me .. which way is it?
a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or
C) I like inconvenience and want everyone else to like it too because my opinion is that it makes MMOs worth playing and more engaging despite the opinions of others.
Originally posted by Axxar I agree there needs to be some "downtime" between the highs, because that makes the highs seem higher. But it's probably difficult to hit the sweet spot between too convenient and too inconvenient.
Each person wants a different amount of down-time. There is no really to put in artificial ones because that won't fit everyones. No down-time provides a choice.
If you want downtime, turn off your computer, and read a book. If you want to be inconvenient, turn off the auto-map and pull out your graphing paper.
Just as easily as one could say if you don't want downtime, don't play MMORPG's or go play console games where downtime doesn't exist unless you pause or save the game.
Here you seem to be saying like it my way, if not...do these things to make it inconvenient for you...as long as it doesn't mess up what I want instead of getting a game the way you want and making me not like it.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Flame on!
What? Isn't choice always good? There is a choice of a teleport or talk.
If you "suffer" from walking, you don't like inconvenience and you can take the teleport like i do.
If you LIKE walking (and it is not inconvenient to you), take the walking option.
Both you and I are happy. What is the problem?
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
The other issue with the yellow highlighted portion is...say you were just accepted into a group for a particular dungeon....but it is on the other side of the continent from where you currently are. Basically you are forced to take a portal because if you take too long to get there...they will drop you and find another closer and able to get the group going faster.
Back in the day...players were perfectly happy with grinding some mobs for xp while waiting, or just sitting and chatign it up..which in most cases made you friends. Sadly patience is no longer a virtue in today's MMORPG market...forcing you to use the faster methods if you want to be part of the community. Which isn't even really being part of the community either...as usually once a dungeon is done...most port out, or leave via other methods right away, rarely saying much if anythign at all. Meh.
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?
Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?
If some people like it, then include it as an option.
So now tell me .. which way is it?
a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or
b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.
Who is "we"?
Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.
EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you could pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of nothing but sitting and waiting. Again, options.....a mix of old and new. Innovate an old feature, not just trash it.
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?
Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?
If some people like it, then include it as an option.
So now tell me .. which way is it?
a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or
b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.
I can like that airport security exists but still not enjoy being searched.
The way you are suggesting we could remove most features from most games, who likes dying for example? Do you? Sould we remove it completely?
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?
Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?
If some people like it, then include it as an option.
So now tell me .. which way is it?
a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or
b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.
Who is "we"?
Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.
EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you coudl pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of sitting. Again, options.
But why do you even need an excuse to talk to people or socialize or do something else? You can just as easily just stop for a couple minutes to chat.
These issues seem to be more that the community is worse than the games. Inconvenience won't solve intolerable people, they'll just be intolerable and you'll be forced to deal with them.
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?
Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?
If some people like it, then include it as an option.
So now tell me .. which way is it?
a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or
b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.
Who is "we"?
Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.
EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you coudl pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of sitting. Again, options.
But why do you even need an excuse to talk to people or socialize or do something else? You can just as easily just stop for a couple minutes to chat.
These issues seem to be more that the community is worse than the games. Inconvenience won't solve intolerable people, they'll just be intolerable and you'll be forced to deal with them.
LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.
When the red text appears, it seems to indicate that the positions are firmly entrenched (and by extension, the thread is over?)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
No one says i won't play a good FPS.
But what you suggest is NOT game jumping .. but it is to lose the fun to play a game because of incovenient. In fact, my way is conducive to game jumping, because you can play the MMO, and then go for the FPS after you are done.
read carefully. i say give a choice to both. Make the player have the choice. Take wow as an example. You can use a teleport, or you can walk. The existence of the teleport does not take away your ability to walk (inconvenience).
So why isn't that a better solution? People who wants no incovenience gets their way, and people who wants inconvenience also get their way.
That is one of the more basic disagreements, in terms of "take the easy route but pay for it, or not" vs "there is only one route".
One of the is unfortunately much easyer to do and less qq prone...
Flame on!
Well, if both route exists, those who want inconvenience should have nothing to complain about. If they indeed choose the easy route, they have no ground to complain because, by their choice, they don't really want the inconvenient route.
That is a personal problem with people these days I feel...Self-entitlement.
I know I enjoy world exploration. Discovering things and appreciating the beauty of the world I am in. I don't have to be rewarded to feel it's worth the effort.
I have played many games with portal networks and other easy travel methods. Did I use them? Sure. Did I use them everytime?...absolutely not. I only really used them if a certain dungeon was being ran and we had limited time. I'm generally not in a hurry, I am not impatient, and I'm not one to need to feel like I should be treated like a special snowflake and called a "hero" and given rewards every 5 minutes.
Part of why I don't feel the same as a few people on here, nor care for most of the current MMORPG's on the market.
Every option has its drawbacks, your that the player is gimping himself on purpose, the other that he plays a different game, both end in the same thing outside a idealised version of the player, that he stops playing the game.
Yet one is acceptable, and the other is not...
Flame on!
There you go again. It's inconvenience TO YOU. But to others, it may not be.
And I read carefully..you constantly contradict yourself however. You are saying give choice in this one thread...but nearly every other one, you are advocating for taking anything out that isn't fast fun and a feature you like. You almost never sound as though giving a choice is something you really truly approve of. And of all things...nearly always reference a Blizzard game...which are ALL about fast fun.
I feel in the end it comes down to worrying too much about what the other guy is doing. MMOs are less a community these days as they are a community of communities. Find folks with similar goals as yourself, set some handicaps for your groups/experiences, and have fun. There are apparently more than enough out there that it shouldn't be too hard to do. Unfortunately the inconvenience team seems to steadily be losing ground in the market and are nearing the point of having to do what soloists did in older games like EQ and make the game work for them somehow.
Read carefully, what he is suggesting, is that you walk and he takes the teleport, with no other mechanics involved.
Essentially ist the same old, you can suffer for your playstyle, but i cannot.
Flame on!
And why is that a bad suggestion really? Are the other guys not suggesting the same thing? You have to play the game my way, because thats how I like it.
What? Isn't choice always good? There is a choice of a teleport or talk.
If you "suffer" from walking, you don't like inconvenience and you can take the teleport like i do.
If you LIKE walking (and it is not inconvenient to you), take the walking option.
Both you and I are happy. What is the problem?
Then what is the problem? You just demonstrated that fast travel is a choice. When you don't like it, you don't use it.
Do you want to take it away from others?
I get what he's saying just fine. I am pointing out this is a new tune he's trying to peddle after months and countless threads of a different tune. And I have been saying that exact thing for awhile now, and have had him shooting it down. But now it's suddenly agreeable.
And yet again...what you may find "inconvenient" or "suffering" is a personal problem...because some people find them enjoyable and fun because we are not in a huge hurry, or have ADD.
It's fine to have fast fun, it's ok to have portals for use..but to constantly hold the pitchfork to get rid of any other feature because you find it inconvenient or a suffering mechanism despite others enjoying them is just selfish. And I am talking beyond just fast travel. Like..making them all lobby games. Ring a bell Narius?
LOL.
No, choice is not always good. If I'm in a big open world with hardly anyone in it (because everyone is teleporting) that takes away much of what makes a world interesting and fun; other players.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
No. Read my post above this one. I just don't want them all lobby games like you constantly ask for. I recall you making a thread asking why even have a world and saying why not make them instanced and lobby games. Goes against your whole sudden "choice" movement.
But i didnt say i enjoy 20minute boat rides or walks, outside the most idealistic ones (without downtime people dont talk!111!!eleven) people see them as a necessary evil, its a reason why we talk about "inconveniences", not "features we enjoy", like =/= enjoy.
Choice is good if the choices are actual choices, not something like "take these 20 bucks or dont".
Let me put it this way, would you accept that a completion of a single simple quest is required to unlock the teleports, with rewards something like "free teleports", "+10% dps", "teleports for cash + 5% dps" ?
Flame on!
Oh you read me wrong. In that thread, i was just musing that many current MMOs are lobby games. Isn't that true?
Let me ask you this .. if a 20 min boat ride is so universally hated (not even you like it), then why clamor for it?
Are you telling me that it is NOT true that some people like inconvenience? If no one likes it, then just take it away .. why do we even have to do a quest for it?
If some people like it, then include it as an option.
So now tell me .. which way is it?
a) Some like inconvenience, so we should keep it as an option, or
b) no one likes it, so we should junk it.
I think the general idea of this thread is:
C) I like inconvenience and want everyone else to like it too because my opinion is that it makes MMOs worth playing and more engaging despite the opinions of others.
The other issue with the yellow highlighted portion is...say you were just accepted into a group for a particular dungeon....but it is on the other side of the continent from where you currently are. Basically you are forced to take a portal because if you take too long to get there...they will drop you and find another closer and able to get the group going faster.
Back in the day...players were perfectly happy with grinding some mobs for xp while waiting, or just sitting and chatign it up..which in most cases made you friends. Sadly patience is no longer a virtue in today's MMORPG market...forcing you to use the faster methods if you want to be part of the community. Which isn't even really being part of the community either...as usually once a dungeon is done...most port out, or leave via other methods right away, rarely saying much if anythign at all. Meh.
Who is "we"?
Anywho....there is nothing saying you cannot have options while on that 20 minute boat ride other than sitting and chatting with other passengers. You could have fishing off the sides of the ship. If a bigger ship like the ones in EQ...you could have games on the ship players can play, small crafting stations, there could be random NPC attacks on the ship in the form of pirates or sea creatures players could band and fight against, etc.
EQ actually did have a tetris-like game you could pull up while on the ship ride. There is nothing saying the boat ride has to be 20 minutes of nothing but sitting and waiting. Again, options.....a mix of old and new. Innovate an old feature, not just trash it.
I can like that airport security exists but still not enjoy being searched.
The way you are suggesting we could remove most features from most games, who likes dying for example? Do you? Sould we remove it completely?
Flame on!
But why do you even need an excuse to talk to people or socialize or do something else? You can just as easily just stop for a couple minutes to chat.
These issues seem to be more that the community is worse than the games. Inconvenience won't solve intolerable people, they'll just be intolerable and you'll be forced to deal with them.
LOL! Seriously...how often do you see people just stop to chat. RARELY these days. it does happen still...but it's like seeing a sighting of Loch Ness.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.