Advice to those bored of GW2, try TERA!!!

Kehdar

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Anyone expecting a full scale world model simulator in GW2 was clearly smoking pot or something stronger.

Will be a few years before having something like that in single player offline game and more in an online game.

Just because GW2 didn't go all the way it doesn't mean go some way is somehow bad.

 

1) My example is not a full scale world model.

2) I was expecting nothing from GW2 i was expecting something more when I first read about dynamic events but i understand soon where they were going with it.

3) If someone doesn't want people to expect too much shouldn't promise that much, if I tell you i'll bring you pancake and instead i serve you bread, the problem is not you (smoke or not) it's me lying.

You read the PR and stopped at that.

Anyone listening to something like this, http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events , would know what Anet meant.

 

Well you didn't even read my post....

darkhalf357x

Originally posted by obake90
Dude, People need to stop saying the Quest system on Tera is boring.. It's the same quest base as rift,everquest,swtor,wow, ect... kill this many things, pick this up, the land is at war ect... trollz!

Its not the system thats boring. Its the execution.  The quests are lifeless and sound generic.  It provides (me) no interest to continue on and Im the person who reads all quest text to get into character.  Perhaps if they had written a better story the questing could have matched the combat.

Cromica

Played Tera when it first came out hoping it could hold me over until GW2 came out but it only lasted a week. Its the same game I have played for years with just adifferent type of combat and the combat got boring after a couple of days. Been playing GW2 since beta weekends and after 1100+ hrs all I have left to do is get a legendary weapon and all I need for that is the precurser but I jsut can't do that anymore either grinding gold is boring running the same events hundreds of times is boring, fractals are boring, the dungeons are easy and boring, don't even get me started on the craptastic pvp. I havent logged in to the game in about a week and I do not miss it one bit and I think thats bad, I had high hopes for this game but once again was let down..... I don't know maybe I should just be done with mmos.

rojoArcueid

Originally posted by DamonVile

I don't get why a heart on a map is innovative and a ! over someones head is boring and old school. Or the fact that the actual number you need to kill is hiden from you and replaced with a heart that fills up.....

Is that really all it took to impress some of you people ?

the way you put it to make it sound like GW2 players are some kind of idiots is just wrong. Obviously you dont know what to say or you dont get it and place the blame somewhere. ITs not about changing the ! for a or hiding the "kill 10 rats" behind a bar. Its the fact that the content triggers and progress in a dynamic way so it feels alive and you dont have to complete a "to do" list and return them to their ! npcs for rewards. Everyone knows its the same questing system as the generic mmos but the way its executed makes it fresh, new to the eye, alive, more appealing, and due to the dynamic execution it feels less grindy and less boring.

 

If you cant understand that, dont try to make up crappy excuses and pretend that thats what everyone else think.

darkhalf357x

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Is there anything non scripted in a piece of software?

not unless a dev or player is actually controlling the character anything else is scripted just some scripts have more variables than others

 

Actually you are both wrong, there is nothing that's not CODED in a game but there can be a lot not SCRIPTED.

For example there is something called procedural content that's not scripted nor controlled by a human and it can be dynamic.

 

What I was expecting from GW 2 when I first read about dynamic event was something on this line:

1 - A random monsters village is build on the map.

2 - The village is not attacked for X day -> the village grow.

  a - The players attack the village -> the village is destroyed.

  b - The village grows again and raids against the near city start.

     b1 - the players defend the city -> go to point 2.

     b2 - the city fall, the mobs are in control of the city and they start to spread to other cities, and so on.

 

Instead I found out something on the line of :

1 - every x hours spawn the same event 

2 - if players win -> go to scene A

3 - if players lose -> go to scene B

4 - after x hours reset everything and go back to point 1.

your first example is still just a computer program/script just much more complex with more variables thats all its all based on if X happens you go to y and if y happens you could get x y or z and so on.. issue is more variables you program in the more things could go wrong with interactions with other programs going on at the same time which will make for a lot more bugs and issues overall...

As a system programmer you (all) are being pedantic.  All software is code.  All code is deterministic, meaning you (should) have a component model which shows the relationships between all the services working together to deliver a process.  All outcomes even ones considered 'dynamic' or 'scripted' are known thus nothing is truly dynamic.

You have multiple outcomes which are randomly selected based on input but the outcomes are not anything that would be unexpected.  And if it was we would call that an error and 'trap' it.

It seems what you are really debating is how random or complex that output is and subjectively which ones you like better than the other.

Gaoxin

dont do it

DamonVile

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

You read the PR and stopped at that.

Anyone listening to something like this, http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events , would know what Anet meant.

 

Well you didn't even read my post....

When the purpose of a post is to tell you you're wrong, they don't need to know what you said :P

 

Good description of dynamic events btw. It was kind of what I was expecting as well.

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Anyone expecting a full scale world model simulator in GW2 was clearly smoking pot or something stronger.

Will be a few years before having something like that in single player offline game and more in an online game.

Just because GW2 didn't go all the way it doesn't mean go some way is somehow bad.

 

1) My example is not a full scale world model.

2) I was expecting nothing from GW2 i was expecting something more when I first read about dynamic events but i understand soon where they were going with it.

3) If someone doesn't want people to expect too much shouldn't promise that much, if I tell you i'll bring you pancake and instead i serve you bread, the problem is not you (smoke or not) it's me lying.

You read the PR and stopped at that.

Anyone listening to something like this, http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events , would know what Anet meant.

 

Well you didn't even read my post....

You didn't have to understand - they spelled it.

They can't lie if at the same time they are saying how it is.

There is PR to get attention but it isn't lying because they explain it how it is - one can say the words they used are a bit of a stretch or are used in a away to attract the customer, but then they have shown and talked about the game allowing any customer to make informed decisions.

GW2 presentations pre-launch have shown gameplay footage.

There is even an interesting blog post on how WildStar vs TESO feel a bit like GW2 vs SWTOR - gameplay and more gameplay videos vs traillers and more traillers.

 

 

darkhalf357x

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Anyone expecting a full scale world model simulator in GW2 was clearly smoking pot or something stronger.

I want some of that :-)

Will be a few years before having something like that in single player offline game and more in an online game.

Agreed. Computer processing power cant deliver something like that in real time in a massively multiplayer context.  I imagine the infrastructure to support that would be daunting and couldnt be financed through solely B2P.  But Im speculating here... 

Just because GW2 didn't go all the way it doesn't mean go some way is somehow bad.

GW2 did a lot of things right by advancing the base mechanics of MMOs.  Not having to return to turn in quests. Node sharing. Unlimited crafting storage. Etc. All MMOs going forward should 'copy' that as a framework as to implement anything different is stepping backwards.

GW2 is still a young game having just released last year.  Given time it has the opportunity to fill the 'gaps' that I believe exist today.  For me the immersion is not there to keep me for long periods of time but sometimes I question if that is not the model they were going after.  Getting players to come and go as they see fit.  I'm looking for that one game that I can play and invest in over years, and perhaps that in and of itself is unrealistic -- but I dont hold GW2 accountable as a game.  Its just another gaming experience.

 

Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Is there anything non scripted in a piece of software?

not unless a dev or player is actually controlling the character anything else is scripted just some scripts have more variables than others

 

Actually you are both wrong, there is nothing that's not CODED in a game but there can be a lot not SCRIPTED.

For example there is something called procedural content that's not scripted nor controlled by a human and it can be dynamic.

 

What I was expecting from GW 2 when I first read about dynamic event was something on this line:

1 - A random monsters village is build on the map.

2 - The village is not attacked for X day -> the village grow.

  a - The players attack the village -> the village is destroyed.

  b - The village grows again and raids against the near city start.

     b1 - the players defend the city -> go to point 2.

     b2 - the city fall, the mobs are in control of the city and they start to spread to other cities, and so on.

 

Instead I found out something on the line of :

1 - every x hours spawn the same event 

2 - if players win -> go to scene A

3 - if players lose -> go to scene B

4 - after x hours reset everything and go back to point 1.

your first example is still just a computer program/script just much more complex with more variables thats all its all based on if X happens you go to y and if y happens you could get x y or z and so on.. issue is more variables you program in the more things could go wrong with interactions with other programs going on at the same time which will make for a lot more bugs and issues overall...

As a system programmer you (all) are being pedantic.  All software is code.  All code is deterministic, meaning you (should) have a component model which shows the relationships between all the services working together to deliver a process.  All outcomes even ones considered 'dynamic' or 'scripted' are known thus nothing is truly dynamic.

You have multiple outcomes which are randomly selected based on input but the outcomes are not anything that would be unexpected.  And if it was we would call that an error and 'trap' it.

It seems what you are really debating is how random or complex that output is and subjectively which ones you like better than the other.

Also, there is no trully random in artificial things - it is just a question of how simple or complex the pattern is.

So what we really talking is computing capability and control plus raw skill of the programmers.

darkhalf357x

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Is there anything non scripted in a piece of software?

not unless a dev or player is actually controlling the character anything else is scripted just some scripts have more variables than others

 

Actually you are both wrong, there is nothing that's not CODED in a game but there can be a lot not SCRIPTED.

For example there is something called procedural content that's not scripted nor controlled by a human and it can be dynamic.

 

What I was expecting from GW 2 when I first read about dynamic event was something on this line:

1 - A random monsters village is build on the map.

2 - The village is not attacked for X day -> the village grow.

  a - The players attack the village -> the village is destroyed.

  b - The village grows again and raids against the near city start.

     b1 - the players defend the city -> go to point 2.

     b2 - the city fall, the mobs are in control of the city and they start to spread to other cities, and so on.

 

Instead I found out something on the line of :

1 - every x hours spawn the same event 

2 - if players win -> go to scene A

3 - if players lose -> go to scene B

4 - after x hours reset everything and go back to point 1.

your first example is still just a computer program/script just much more complex with more variables thats all its all based on if X happens you go to y and if y happens you could get x y or z and so on.. issue is more variables you program in the more things could go wrong with interactions with other programs going on at the same time which will make for a lot more bugs and issues overall...

As a system programmer you (all) are being pedantic.  All software is code.  All code is deterministic, meaning you (should) have a component model which shows the relationships between all the services working together to deliver a process.  All outcomes even ones considered 'dynamic' or 'scripted' are known thus nothing is truly dynamic.

You have multiple outcomes which are randomly selected based on input but the outcomes are not anything that would be unexpected.  And if it was we would call that an error and 'trap' it.

It seems what you are really debating is how random or complex that output is and subjectively which ones you like better than the other.

Also, there is no trully random in artificial things - it is just a question of how simple or complex the pattern is.

So what we really talking is computing capability and control plus raw skill of the programmers.

Which makes Artificial Intelligence an interesting subject. But I digress.... :-) 

Cothor

Tera has the same problem as GW2. Very little end game.

Aerowyn

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

Which makes Artificial Intelligence an interesting subject. But I digress.... :-) 

will be the end of the world as we know it:P

Kehdar

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

As a system programmer you (all) are being pedantic.  

 

I don't think our discussion was pedantic, but hey if you say so...

Then again, if i code a function to change the sky of an area looking at the actual real weather is the outcome dynamic enough for you? 

 

Following your logic we may argue on life itself, you are coded by your DNA and by the interaction with other beings coded by DNA in the end it is all a complex equation.

The point is how complex and "visible" is this equation.

 

I said consider the actions of players as variables, this will add a layer of complexity to the equation that will come close to dynamic.

 

 

Aerowyn

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

As a system programmer you (all) are being pedantic.  

 

I don't think our discussion was pedantic, but hey if you say so...

Then again, if i code a function to change the sky of an area looking at the actual real weather is the outcome dynamic enough for you? 

 

Following your logic we may argue on life itself, you are coded by your DNA and by the interaction with other beings coded by DNA in the end it is all a complex equation.

The point is how complex and "visible" is this equation.

 

I said consider the actions of players as variables, this will add a layer of complexity to the equation that will come close to dynamic.

 

 

that is how gw2 system works though.. players don't beat an event it goes to fail state they do beat it, it goes on.. i can see wanting it much more complex and adding a lot more unpredictability but on such a large scale in a game with thousands playing at once i don't know if something like that is even feasable..

darkhalf357x

Originally posted by Kehdar

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

As a system programmer you (all) are being pedantic.  

 

I don't think our discussion was pedantic, but hey if you say so...

Then again, if i code a function to change the sky of an area looking at the actual real weather is the outcome dynamic enough for you? 

 No because the outcome is based on another system.  It still has parameters and an expected output otherwise when you make the call you couldnt use what was returned.  The entire point of code is standardization (and automation as a subset of that).

Following your logic we may argue on life itself, you are coded by your DNA and by the interaction with other beings coded by DNA in the end it is all a complex equation.

That is not logical because our DNA is not a binary function like code is.  Also because we have the ability to reason human beings add true dynamics and randomness that cant be planned.  An old example we used in college is "place 3 people in a room with a gun" and you cannot predict the outcome.  This is part of the chaos theory.

Code isn't something that 'just happened' it is something written from a straight-forward pre-concieved notion.  If you ever have written 'agile' code you will know it increases the possibility of it not working and having errors.  Code with errors does not deliver the desired result.

 

The point is how complex and "visible" is this equation.

 And thats subjective on how you percieve the execution of the code.  One could say 'dyanamic' events in GW2 are random if that is how they view them.  Someone else could say they are static just happening at different intervals.  Both are saying the same thing but from a different perspective.  Cant see how you can come to agreement there.  But Im never one to stop an arugment.

I said consider the actions of players as variables, this will add a layer of complexity to the equation that will come close to dynamic.

 How so?  Whatever a player wants to do has to be planned for otherwise the outcome cannot be coded. What should happen when a player cuts a tree?  You have to (pre) decide what that outcome is (even if it will include 'random' options) in order to code it.  The more options your program the more 'complexity' you add.  But that doesnt mean its dynamic (at least in my perception).  Yours may be different and I respect that.

 

 

Mikeha

For me I was expecting the world to change, keep changing and stay changed. Thats how Anet hyped the game and made it seem like thats the way it would be.

mikahr

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

 snip

Dont even start of the problems with that. Short of AI it wont happen, because AI should be able to write code on the fly.

I actualy chuckle at "it aint dynamic and nothing short of AI (masked in some obscure claim) it aint good enough" lol

Yah, i reckon everyone expected GW2 to start AI revolution lol

What they have done goes miles from questing like TERA and likes in feeling of the world, events are actually dynamic (moving constantly from state to state) and actually influence the world around you. They may add  more variation to states but thats where todays capability ends.

 

Originally posted by Mannish
For me I was expecting the world to change, keep changing and stay changed. Thats how Anet hyped the game and made it seem like thats the way it would be.

No they didnt. They delivered exactly what they said they would, your imagination unfortuately played a trick on you.

Aerowyn

Originally posted by Mannish
For me I was expecting the world to change, keep changing and stay changed. Thats how Anet hyped the game and made it seem like thats the way it would be.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/84465 article date is May 18, 2010 and sounds exactly like what was delivered...

Pivotelite

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Mannish
For me I was expecting the world to change, keep changing and stay changed. Thats how Anet hyped the game and made it seem like thats the way it would be.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/84465 article date is May 18, 2010 and sounds exactly like what was delivered...

 Come on, you have to at least admit that sounds a lot better than what was delivered... the way they worded it and such makes it sound like it was game changing depending how the events took place but in the end they just reset and start again rather shortly, usually multiple times before youre even done with the area. They are so predictable bots can farm them and have been setup to follow and zerg -dynamic- event chains.

 

Also soooo many centaurs, way too many centaurs are the focus of these events, like 600 different centaur events.

mikahr

Originally posted by Pivotelite

 Come on, you have to at least admit that sounds a lot better than what was delivered... the way they worded it and such makes it sound like it was game changing depending how the events took place but in the end they just reset and start again, they are so predictable bots can farm them and have been setup to follow and zerg -dynamic- event chains.

 

Also soooo many centaurs, way too many centaurs are the focus of these events, like 600 different centaur events.

Originally posted by mikahr
 

I actualy chuckle at "it aint dynamic and nothing short of AI (masked in some obscure claim) it aint good enough" lol

Yah, i reckon everyone expected GW2 to start AI revolution lol

-------------------------------------------

Just copy/paste

Centaurs are kewl ;P And if you dont want centaurs, dont go to centaur land...you have options lol

Dont follow teh zerg -> options

Aerowyn

Originally posted by Pivotelite

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Mannish
For me I was expecting the world to change, keep changing and stay changed. Thats how Anet hyped the game and made it seem like thats the way it would be.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/84465 article date is May 18, 2010 and sounds exactly like what was delivered...

 Come on, you have to at least admit that sounds a lot better than what was delivered... the way they worded it and such makes it sound like it was game changing depending how the events took place but in the end they just reset and start again rather shortly, usually multiple times before youre even done with the area. They are so predictable bots can farm them and have been setup to follow and zerg -dynamic- event chains.

 

Also soooo many centaurs, way too many centaurs are the focus of these events, like 600 different centaur events.

doesn't sound like you played many of the meta-events or bigger ones cause many play out just like how he said in the article.. also most important i think 

"So, it’s essentially like questing except your actions and choices have a real affect on the world. Don’t worry though. The world won’t change once and be stuck there. Many events are cyclical and will eventually reset at the start so that new players coming along can start the chain all over again. The enemies will eventually retake their fort allowing new players to come along and try to take it again and begin the event chain from there."

Kehdar

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 No because the outcome is based on another system.  It still has parameters and an expected output otherwise when you make the call you couldnt use what was returned.  The entire point of code is standardization (and automation as a subset of that).

I may use Perlin noise to generate an "infinite" degree of clouds covering and use the real weather as parameter for it.

You as coder will never be able to predict how the clouds will look, this may be not real dynamic, but is an illusion of dynamic that is enough for me.

That is not logical because our DNA is not a binary function like code is.  Also because we have the ability to reason human beings add true dynamics and randomness that cant be planned.  An old example we used in college is "place 3 people in a room with a gun" and you cannot predict the outcome.  This is part of the chaos theory.

Is not logical cause you consider the human reason to be truly random, imo you (or we) don't have the required data / processing power to "predict" what's is going to happen.

Code isn't something that 'just happened' it is something written from a straight-forward pre-concieved notion.  If you ever have written 'agile' code you will know it increases the possibility of it not working and having errors.  Code with errors does not deliver the desired result.

Sorry I miss the connection between agile development and code "just happening" or bugs.

 

 And thats subjective on how you percieve the execution of the code.  One could say 'dyanamic' events in GW2 are random if that is how they view them.  Someone else could say they are static just happening at different intervals.  Both are saying the same thing but from a different perspective.  Cant see how you can come to agreement there.  But Im never one to stop an arugment.

Definint random the GW event is a stretch at best, players go to a precise point to partecipate a precise event cause they know is going to happen. They know what will happen if they win and what if they lose.

 How so?  Whatever a player wants to do has to be planned for otherwise the outcome cannot be coded. What should happen when a player cuts a tree?  You have to (pre) decide what that outcome is (even if it will include 'random' options) in order to code it.  The more options your program the more 'complexity' you add.  But that doesnt mean its dynamic (at least in my perception).  Yours may be different and I respect that.

As i said, if a player fighting a centaur force the centaurs to move to another area, this change the world in a way you, as coder couldn't predict.

You coded that mobs can move to another area but you can't predict when and where a player will trigger the change. Of course it's not truly random or dynamic but will offer a certain degree of randomness that is enough for me.

 

 Lot of poster here keep saying "doubt you can have such degree of randomness in today game", actually the use of procedural content was common in old games where was important to save on "space" and was more convenient to build content on the fly (someone may remember the enormous world of Daggerfall).

There are indi projects exploring this system to genetare infinite worlds. 

Just think at games like Diablo 2 (not saying 3 cause they dumbed down the randomization), of couse there is a finite number of possible mephisto prison maps, but is so high that the chance you'll see 2 times the same map are really slim.

You all say everything is scripted in a game, but in game development there is a clear difference between scripted vs random events. Of course the entire game development community is wrong, and you are right. 

 

Aerowyn

Originally posted by Kehdar

 

Definint random the GW event is a stretch at best, players go to a precise point to partecipate a precise event cause they know is going to happen. They know what will happen if they win and what if they lose.

only very few events actually run on a timer... and even that timer isn't exact as the pre-event for things like dragons could take any amount of time really depends on how many players there are.. I could never run through queensdale and say this event with start at this time because it doesn't work like that for most of them.. I know where events take place but not where they will be at any given time as events aren't static and generally take place in several places on the map(like escort events for example)... also Most require triggers, trigger could be a couple things sometimes its a player interacting with a npc sometimes its a pre-event that leads to another event and so on.

As i said, if a player fighting a centaur force the centaurs to move to another area, this change the world in a way you, as coder couldn't predict.

You coded that mobs can move to another area but you can't predict when and where a player will trigger the change. Of course it's not truly random or dynamic but will offer a certain degree of randomness that is enough for me.

have you played any of the games meta-events? this is how they mostly work. You start an event chain if you win a segment it will move on to the next phase in the event chain if you loose the event will not move forward until certain conditions are met.. The coder doesn't know which event or part of the chain you may or may not win at it's all programmed depending on the state.. Seems you issue is the fact the events don't happen in random spots all over the map. I see them doing this for several reasons.. One is unlike rift and their zone invasions GW2 events follow some sort of story. Some big some small but require interactions with npcs in specific areas. If you want to tell a story like this you need the events segregated to specific spots for that to work.

 

 

 

Volkon

Originally posted by Mannish
For me I was expecting the world to change, keep changing and stay changed. Thats how Anet hyped the game and made it seem like thats the way it would be.

You know what's funny... that's starting to happen now with the Living Story content being added. Permanent changes are coming.