Foundation Principle 3 is Up

Ice-Queen · February 2013

http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

Yay, to no auction houses for crafted items!

Nibs · February 2013

Damn you, Jacobs!

Stop posting these things 20 minutes before I leave work. I want to read these at work rather than having to wait until I get home! :P

outd00rminer · February 2013

You've got my money, Mark. Please follow through on these principles!

Fearum · February 2013

Mark,

I have been reading all your Foundation Principals so far and have been agreeing with almost all of it so far. But today reading your #3 blog, I have to say the comment about the cash shop has been off-putting to say the least. I will pay a sub if a game is good and I enjoy playing with no problem, but I will not buy anything from cash shops and think they are crap in this genre.

Everything else I like so far, this cash shop talk though makes me hesitant on supporting this project now. I never have given money to Kick starter companies because nothing has compelled or interested me enough too. I was planning on contributing some when your ks goes live if I still like the sounds of your vision, but this cash shop talk is questionable.

So a simple question...

What as a developer are the advantages of having a cash shop in the game and how does that allow you to improve the quality of the game for the customers?

tom_gore · February 2013

I have to say Mark, you're starting to make more and more sense with each post.

I'll follow this one closely.

MarkJacobs · February 2013

Originally posted by Fearum
Mark,

I have been reading all your Foundation Principals so far and have been agreeing with almost all of it so far. But today reading your #3 blog, I have to say the comment about the cash shop has been off-putting to say the least. I will pay a sub if a game is good and I enjoy playing with no problem, but I will not buy anything from cash shops and think they are crap in this genre.

Everything else I like so far, this cash shop talk though makes me hesitant on supporting this project now. I never have given money to Kick starter companies because nothing has compelled or interested me enough too.

What as a developer are the advantages of having a cash shop in the game and how does that allow you to improve the quality of the game for the customers?

Just a quick response and then back to levels. The cash shop is still just an option (no decision has been made) and given that we want to be aggresive (lower) in some of our pricing plans, there may be people who would prefer to start with a "starter" account and then upgrade their accounts (upgrades sold in cash shop). Also, I want to keep my options open for people who want to really decorate their houses more than other people. I want to keep the overall subscriptions lower than average for most MMORPGs but if there are people who are willing to pay to say put some special furniture in their house (assuming crafters can make it) and I put the artists on it, why would that be a problem? Here's a few (key being few as I need to get back to level design) of my core beliefs:

1) For the full sub (price TBD but less than 14.95), you should have not have to/be able to buy anything with RL cash, including additional character slots, bags, bank slots, etc. To me, full price sub means full price sub. As I've said regarding our game MoO, we weren't going to go the route of full price + iAP and we didn't.

2) No sale of items that give a player an advantage in combat.

3) No sale of items that make the player stand out on the field of battle.

4) No sales of items that allow the player to move faster in RvR, through RvR, to RvR, etc.

5) Even in the lower priced subs, we will not make the player feel like a loser, cheap or make their life suck because we want them to cash shop their way to happiness and success.

Again, no decision has been made and the only reason I've mentioned it so far is that I don't want to be evasive when people ask me about it and since everything I say now people will remember and quote back at me, it's better to keep my options open now. BTW, we'll need the tech for cash shops no matter what if a distributor in Asia wants the game but doesn't want to do it via sub.

I've never put a cash shop in either of my MMORPGs and again, it's not something I think is necessary but if players make a compelling point that they would prefer to buy cosmetic items for their homes, land, etc. we should at least consider it. Again, please consider point (1) as gospel and personally, I hate most cash shop games.

Mark

Aeonblades · February 2013

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Fearum
Mark,

I have been reading all your Foundation Principals so far and have been agreeing with almost all of it so far. But today reading your #3 blog, I have to say the comment about the cash shop has been off-putting to say the least. I will pay a sub if a game is good and I enjoy playing with no problem, but I will not buy anything from cash shops and think they are crap in this genre.

Everything else I like so far, this cash shop talk though makes me hesitant on supporting this project now. I never have given money to Kick starter companies because nothing has compelled or interested me enough too.

What as a developer are the advantages of having a cash shop in the game and how does that allow you to improve the quality of the game for the customers?

Just a quick response and then back to levels. The cash shop is still just an option (no decision has been made) and given that we want to be aggresive (lower) in some of our pricing plans, there may be people who would prefer to start with a "starter" account and then upgrade their accounts (upgrades sold in cash shop). Also, I want to keep my options open for people who want to really decorate their houses more than other people. I want to keep the overall subscriptions lower than average for most MMORPGs but if there are people who are willing to pay to say put some special furniture in their house (assuming crafters can make it) and I put the artists on it, why would that be a problem? Here's a few (key being few as I need to get back to level design) of my core beliefs:

1) For the full sub (price TBD but less than 14.95), you should have not have to/be able to buy anything with RL cash, including additional character slots, bags, bank slots, etc. To me, full price sub means full price sub. As I've said regarding our game MoO, we weren't going to go the route of full price + iAP and we didn't.

2) No sale of items that give a player an advantage in combat.

3) No sale of items that make the player stand out on the field of battle.

4) No sales of items that allow the player to move faster in RvR, through RvR, to RvR, etc.

5) Even in the lower priced subs, we will not make the player feel like a loser, cheap or make their life suck because we want them to cash shop their way to happiness and success.

Again, no decision has been made and the only reason I've mentioned it so far is that I don't want to be evasive when people ask me about it and since everything I say now people will remember and quote back at me, it's better to keep my options open now. BTW, we'll need the tech for cash shops no matter what if a distributor in Asia wants the game but doesn't want to do it via sub.

I've never put a cash shop in either of my MMORPGs and again, it's not something I think is necessary but if players make a compelling point that they would prefer to buy cosmetic items for their homes, land, etc. we should at least consider it. Again, please consider point (1) as gospel and personally, I hate most cash shop games.

Mark

Personally, I am fine with cash shops as log as it's cosmetic stuff/memberships only. No items or currencies. Thanks for clarifying Mark

Fearum · February 2013

I can live with that if it will be tied into the different pay models or even fluff, I just don't like seeing stuff in a game that has to be purchased with real money if I'am paying a full sub on top of it.

MightyPit · February 2013

Well, I like the idea of buying additional character slots in an cash shop even with the full subscription. I like to have the limitless ability to create alts. But on the other hand, I would hate to see that some people creates numberous alts to reserve the character names. So the best way would be to have lets say 8 or 10 character slots per server and you can buy more if you like to.

Bobarian · February 2013

CASE #1 - Follow the blinking-line to your quest giver like one follows the road of yellow bricks

No blinking lines to follow. I loved the exploration in early DAOC where you would wander to complete a quest, even if I mistakenly wandered into red or purple mobs that one shotted me. I liked having a notebook that I jotted down things to help with future alts or guild mates next to my computer. It made people ask questions, which made people socialize which has been lost recently.

CASE #2 - Auction House

No Auction House except for MAYBE commodities is a good thing. Leveling up many toons on old HIB GAWAINE to Master Crafter. I appreciate this very much.

CASE #3 - Respecs and/or borking your build

Looking forward to Marks definition on "limited access to respecs". I liked when respec stones we're introduced in DAOC. I would cross my fingers hoping to get one after we finally defeated the HIB Dragon. Hope this means realm specific Dragons????

boxsnd · February 2013

There is nothing wrong with cash shops as long as they aren't P2W.

Ice-Queen · February 2013

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Fearum
Mark,

I have been reading all your Foundation Principals so far and have been agreeing with almost all of it so far. But today reading your #3 blog, I have to say the comment about the cash shop has been off-putting to say the least. I will pay a sub if a game is good and I enjoy playing with no problem, but I will not buy anything from cash shops and think they are crap in this genre.

Everything else I like so far, this cash shop talk though makes me hesitant on supporting this project now. I never have given money to Kick starter companies because nothing has compelled or interested me enough too.

What as a developer are the advantages of having a cash shop in the game and how does that allow you to improve the quality of the game for the customers?

Just a quick response and then back to levels. The cash shop is still just an option (no decision has been made) and given that we want to be aggresive (lower) in some of our pricing plans, there may be people who would prefer to start with a "starter" account and then upgrade their accounts (upgrades sold in cash shop). Also, I want to keep my options open for people who want to really decorate their houses more than other people. I want to keep the overall subscriptions lower than average for most MMORPGs but if there are people who are willing to pay to say put some special furniture in their house (assuming crafters can make it) and I put the artists on it, why would that be a problem? Here's a few (key being few as I need to get back to level design) of my core beliefs:

1) For the full sub (price TBD but less than 14.95), you should have not have to/be able to buy anything with RL cash, including additional character slots, bags, bank slots, etc. To me, full price sub means full price sub. As I've said regarding our game MoO, we weren't going to go the route of full price + iAP and we didn't.

2) No sale of items that give a player an advantage in combat.

3) No sale of items that make the player stand out on the field of battle.

4) No sales of items that allow the player to move faster in RvR, through RvR, to RvR, etc.

5) Even in the lower priced subs, we will not make the player feel like a loser, cheap or make their life suck because we want them to cash shop their way to happiness and success.

Again, no decision has been made and the only reason I've mentioned it so far is that I don't want to be evasive when people ask me about it and since everything I say now people will remember and quote back at me, it's better to keep my options open now. BTW, we'll need the tech for cash shops no matter what if a distributor in Asia wants the game but doesn't want to do it via sub.

I've never put a cash shop in either of my MMORPGs and again, it's not something I think is necessary but if players make a compelling point that they would prefer to buy cosmetic items for their homes, land, etc. we should at least consider it. Again, please consider point (1) as gospel and personally, I hate most cash shop games.

Mark

I think what you have in minds is fine. At least you won't be making us pay for character/bag/bank slots, I appreciate that. If we pay a subscription fee we should have those things already. Your shop sounds like it's not the kind of cash shop that you feel like you have to buy an item to compete.

Myself, I would like a cash shop for cosmetic items and items for housing. Like special scrolls to learn a new craftable item, that may look different but isn't more powerful than a general craftable item, whether it's swords/shields/armor/furniture. Having the option to buy different craftable skins for those items is good to me.

I like paying a subscription, and if I like the mmo, I will gladly use the shop to show even more support for the game. Just like I did with WoW's shop, it is done right, basically cosmetic items, that aren't necessary to play but fun to have if you want to spend a little for it.

BTW....Thank you Mark for not planning to have auction houses for craftable items. Even though they are conveniant, they also take away the sense of community and rob us from the opportunity to get to know our realm crafters.

skyexile · February 2013

Cant say im a huge fan of no respecs or limited respecs, i guess "limited" perhaps needs further explaining, but I am a fan of just playing 1 character for the reputation of that name and the fact that i just hate alts, im all for harder respecs though, paying 1-50g is a joke, id be cool if it were limited to once per month or the accumulation of XXXX realm points, that shouldn't take any less than 48 hours of play, for your average player to acquire.

lack of acution house i'm not sure, playing path of exile ATM, with its stupid currency system can be annoying try to trade people since everybody holds each different currency at different values and i would be super annoying trying to just obtain a handful of wood or something else that could be trivial to acquire at a small cost. I hope they do implement that raw base commodity market though.

boxsnd · February 2013

Originally posted by skyexile
Cant say im a huge fan of no respecs or limited respecs, i guess "limited" perhaps needs further explaining, but I am a fan of just playing 1 character for the reputation of that name and the fact that i just hate alts, im all for harder respecs though, paying 1-50g is a joke, id be cool if it were limited to once per month or the accumulation of XXXX realm points, that shouldn't take any less than 48 hours of play, for your average player to acquire.

lack of acution house i'm not sure, playing path of exile ATM, with its stupid currency system can be annoying try to trade people since everybody holds each different currency at different values and i would be super annoying trying to just obtain a handful of wood or something else that could be trivial to acquire at a small cost. I hope they do implement that raw base commodity market though.

In daoc limited meant you could respec as many times as you wanted but they were expensive (2-3k gold) or if you wanted them for free you had to do a few raids and get a good roll.

meddyck · February 2013

I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

ShakyMo · February 2013

i prefer a gw1/tsw/eve/teso approach where you gain a vast amount of powers, but you can only equip so many at once, but you can swap them around when ever you are not in combat or are in town or whatever. Its fun to thoery craft and run counter builds on the fly.

skyexile · February 2013

Originally posted by meddyck
I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it.

But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

meddyck · February 2013

If you make respeccing costly, then players will just look up what is the best/most popular/most op spec on the Internet and go with that. If you want to make a speccing system that has real flexibility and multiple right ways to spec, then you need to give players the chance to try something different and if they don't like it, let them respec and try something else. Limited respecs is one old school feature that deserves to stay dead.

gregoryvg · February 2013

Originally posted by ShakyMo
i prefer a gw1/tsw/eve/teso approach where you gain a vast amount of powers, but you can only equip so many at once, but you can swap them around when ever you are not in combat or are in town or whatever. Its fun to thoery craft and run counter builds on the fly.

No. I think that would ruin the purpose of having to make choices that matter in the game. Plus, if you really want that style of game there are already several you could try.

redcapp · February 2013

Sounds pretty good, although to be honest it is a little off-putting the way he blames / ridicules casual players for the way devs have dumbed down their games.

The only thing that I'm not sure about, though, is respecs. If it is possible to spec 'wrong' and gimp your character, there should be a respec option. Nothing wrong with making it difficult to obtain, but it should at least be there in some way. Sounds like it will be, though, so we'll have to wait and see.

redcapp · February 2013

Originally posted by skyexile

Originally posted by meddyck
I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it.

But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

I agree, D3 was lame. But, did you play D2? One wrong click and you might as well make a new character. That's just not fun. POE has a decent system, and it actually is possible to respec. Especially if it's just one or two wrong decisions along the way.

OgreRaper · February 2013

I like having respecs be very expensive. It's a good gold sink.

skyexile · February 2013

Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by skyexile Originally posted by meddyck I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it. But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

I agree, D3 was lame. But, did you play D2? One wrong click and you might as well make a new character. That's just not fun. POE has a decent system, and it actually is possible to respec. Especially if it's just one or two wrong decisions along the way.

i didn't overly no, but yea i was aware of its system, the thing with that game though was making anew character was pretty common, and you got a free respec with each death! It would be totally absurd if you couldn't respec at all in CU because there is more attachment to the one character. we'll have to wait to see what sort of skill system they plan to have in CU but im sure they could have something similar to POE or PS1 where you can only make minor alterations in a time frame or have the really expensive cost of respecing everything.

DavisFlight · February 2013

Originally posted by meddyck
If you make respeccing costly, then players will just look up what is the best/most popular/most op spec on the Internet and go with that. If you want to make a speccing system that has real flexibility and multiple right ways to spec, then you need to give players the chance to try something different and if they don't like it, let them respec and try something else. Limited respecs is one old school feature that deserves to stay dead.

Having limited respecs did absolutely nothing to stop people from experimenting in DAoC.

cd3925 · February 2013

Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by skyexile

Originally posted by meddyck
I guess we now know who was responsible for the restrictive respec system DAOC had for many years until dragon farming became trivial. I have to say I strongly dislike the idea of a game having limited respeccing. Maybe it won't be so bad since you won't have to PvE to level 50 first to make a new alt of the same class that is specced differently in CU, but still.... meh.

I'm not sure if you have played path of exile and D3, but i personally think its great that in POE they make you think about your build and skills combination, its very freeform so you cab do what you like but to make a good build you obviously want to specialise in something. I found it a joke that in D3 you could at will change between what skills you choose to use...as for respecing in D3? well there really was none because there was no specs at all. you just change into whatever is OP and go with it.

But yea, if its just a high cost on respecing i think thats cool, it will make people think atleast, not that i would change guilds but if we were to change our playstyle i would want to respec my character to suit that change, obviously i would want to pit thought into it so it could be played in small groups or larger groups though.

I agree, D3 was lame. But, did you play D2? One wrong click and you might as well make a new character. That's just not fun. POE has a decent system, and it actually is possible to respec. Especially if it's just one or two wrong decisions along the way.

I am still playing PoE for this very reason (Think through your spec) as well as the trading and orb system- love it. To re-spec in PoE takes effort and a lot of resources to accomplish. I hope CU offers the ability, but only with a hefty hefty price...

Mark, I very much enjoy the CU blogs and am looking forward to this game. I do sorta wish I didnt know about it until it was just a few months out :-) I have never contributed to a kick Start before but I am going to for CU. DAoC is the best MMO I have played and offeres some of the greatest gaming memories with friends I met in DAoC and still play with online today. Reading those FP's really sheds a light on what I loved about that game. I am very pumped for this!!

cd3925 · February 2013

Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by meddyck
If you make respeccing costly, then players will just look up what is the best/most popular/most op spec on the Internet and go with that. If you want to make a speccing system that has real flexibility and multiple right ways to spec, then you need to give players the chance to try something different and if they don't like it, let them respec and try something else. Limited respecs is one old school feature that deserves to stay dead.

Having limited respecs did absolutely nothing to stop people from experimenting in DAoC.

Alts FTW. My first toon was an Avalonian Pally- I made it to lvl 15 LMAO. Someone was like, "dude- why you an Avalonian? ".

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Foundation Principle 3 is Up

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