Can you? Yes.....I think the better question would be, does a free player have the right to demand things?
Everyone can complain, demand, or whatever, but if the demographic of players asking for something is the percentage that do not pay any money into the cash shop or whatever, then no one will probably care much.
Originally posted by loopback1199 Developers aren't part of the marketing division, so what's your point? Devs develop, and what they develop is decided by someone ENTIRELY different and probably higher on the pay scale. That guy making the money probably wants to continue making said money, so unless MMO's are suddenly tax exempt charities, the free players really only matter in those short lived instances when they give their credit card info to the cash shops.
That shows a lack of understanding of the business model.
Free players are content for the paying whales. Whales would not be as loyal, or as motivated to pay up, if there are no content around.
That is why you can play the whole game PS2 for free. And the free dudes matter because if it weren't for them, the whale who bought the expensive sniper rifle has few others to shoot at.
You've thoroughly confused me. It's not as much a business model as it is just a business trend, and like all trends, it will eventually fade into something else. It was once shown that froobs were easy to milk with cash shops, thus everyone wanted a piece of it. But since it IS a trend, everyone started doing it, and it's not working out as well as it might have been when it was first put into use by only a few publishers.
Now I'm not sure what kind of drugs you take while playing hello kitty, but trying to translate your thoughts into something resembling a counter response. I'm going to have to say that freeloaders are not content unless it's for pvp purposes, which in this age of MMO's has a very tiny slice of the popularity it once had due to the xbox generation being a bunch of whiny sissies, so is irrelevant, even assuming whales with sniper rifles could somehow manage a trigger and ultimately find themselves as a lasting proponent in any of the higher populated mainstream titles lol!
If it is a player that never spends a dime even on a cash shop then they would have no right to complain and no great loss because they are not paying so developer can ignore their wants. However feedback is another thing I think you can consider their feedback but you can ignore them mostly as far as grousing goes.
Originally posted by loopback1199 I'm going to have to say that freeloaders are not content unless it's for pvp purposes, which in this age of MMO's has a very tiny slice of the popularity it once had due to the xbox generation being a bunch of whiny sissies, so is irrelevant, even assuming whales with sniper rifles could somehow manage a trigger and ultimately find themselves as a lasting proponent in any of the higher populated mainstream titles lol!
What are you smoking?
When you hit the LFD "PUG" button, free players are your content.
Plus, the most popular online game (more active players than WOW) is a pvp game. PS2 is a pvp game. What is this nosense about pvp is a tiny slice?
every F2P game I am currently playing I spend my money on. So, that makes me a paying customer. Im sure it isnt a reach for some of you to grasp that I am not the only F2P gamer out there that drops my fair share of $$$ in said cash shops. Sorry to have to point out the painfully obvious but for some people its kinda needed.
FREE PLAYERS SPEND MONEY IN CASH SHOPS. make sense ? good.
You are not a free player if you spend money in the cash shop. You are just paying à la carte.
fair enough. then why do we keep seeing threads and polls and rants about Free Players who spend not a penny in the cash shops, when it is most likely less then 1% of the playerbase ? In a way you reinforced my original point even more.
And thats why the majority of complaint threads are deleted/locked.
Sorry dont think so.
lol, here you get your post deleted for calling out a troll...while the troll post remains.
Dont grasp at straws when you can attack with actual points that matter.
I think it kind of confuses the issue when you try and include this site as an actual game site. What you can or can't do here isn't the same as the offical site for a game.
The types of posts people are saying they can make here would get deleted or locked on most offical sites.
Actually no, the reasons are the same...protecting a product. MMORPG is being paid to hype products, an offical forum is by a company, for their product. Now go to a independant site, say like the Nexus, which is a MODDING site...forums are filled with pros and cons in game topics...hell, TESO is being ripped to shreds there for bastardizing the IP and turning it into DaoC 2.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
every F2P game I am currently playing I spend my money on. So, that makes me a paying customer. Im sure it isnt a reach for some of you to grasp that I am not the only F2P gamer out there that drops my fair share of $$$ in said cash shops. Sorry to have to point out the painfully obvious but for some people its kinda needed.
FREE PLAYERS SPEND MONEY IN CASH SHOPS. make sense ? good.
You are not a free player if you spend money in the cash shop. You are just paying à la carte.
fair enough. then why do we keep seeing threads and polls and rants about Free Players who spend not a penny in the cash shops, when it is most likely less then 1% of the playerbase ? In a way you reinforced my original point even more.
less than 1% ....are you kidding ? Maybe in older pay to win games where the freeloaders have all moved on, but in the newer ones that sell mostly cosmetic and boost items like tera. They make up the bigger portion and they complain about everything that cost money. That's the whole point of the thread.
They're everywhere and they're annoying and they make no secret of the fact that they will never spend a dime on the game. THAT is the type of person that this is about. You are just a typical customer that f2p is marketed at.
You get what you pay for, that applies to mmorpg's too. If you play a buy to play or free to play game, I think you can complain, but your complaints don't matter to companies. You've bought the game already and pay no subscription fee, or you play for free, they have no incentive to keep you happy. If you paid a subscription fee, then yes, you can complain all you want because you are still paying for the product. That's my opinion anyways.
only about 10% of his player base has ever paid him anything. As a result, he says, approximately 5,000 gamers are generating the $230,000 in revenue he sees each month.
I played WoW and complained, or better say, told, explained and suggested, only once. I think devs there are smart enough to make game better without need tons of complains.
I played like 5 f2p games and complain only about the one, as I found it too greedy and safe less (looked as scam to me to be honest).
I played runescape and never complained till the end of 2007, then posted my thoughts and left. Unfortunately they got me back with nice looking changes; only it was great lie and big disappointment, so I did complained for real.
conclusion: YES we can and MUST complain if game not offer what it should, what we pay for, or if devs lie to us, or when they got too greedy, or, more important, when they let game to be destroyed by bots, gold sellers and other crap w/o taking appropriate actions.
game is nothing else as consumers product and if such product not reach the promised quality, complain may add to get it better or to get refund and move away (shame I never got refund so far, which is not normal for any product anymore).
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Originally posted by Zooce Valid critisim is valid no matter who utters the words.
+1
It shouldn't matter if you are a paying player if your criticism is valid. However, "complaining" is pretty much always ignored regardless of how much money you spend on a game.
Love that!
Complaining is very different from citicism IMO. Pretty obscure reference to make a very informed choice on but I say everybody should be able to speak their mind.
What is the complaint? Would it be solved by paying?
If I replace "anything" with "game features offered for free" I would say no, not one bit. Saying anything is bound to bring arguments to the table not even associated with the point of the thread.
Unfortunately the poll lacks in direction. We all have a 'right' to complain, I'm sure even some complaints on forums have come from people not having ever touched the game their post was directed at. Such is the internet.
The gaming company would probably only listen to, and change anything if enough of the complaints showed a negative impact on revenue, be it paid subscription of F2P.
Right/wrong, valid/invalid, factual/fiction have little to do with it, unless we're talking about bugs, errors that impede the playability and stability of the game itself as opposed to not liking how some use a certain mechanic to their advantage as an example.
The first would be most likely fixed right away while the other would depend on how many complain about it versus those that might actually enjoy it, without it being an exploit.
Freedom of speech is a right that most countries have and not even agreeing to any site's ToS or a game's agreement changes that. The consequences of going against either are clearly written but they never supercede your right to free speech. We're talking forums and games here, not world governments and slander. Not to be interchanged.
As someone else posted, our right to voice and the belief we have a right to be given anything is vastly different. Many seem to confuse the two.
Originally posted by maplestone No representation without taxation.
Complaining is not representation. No one says the dev has any obligation to listen.
The question is rather pointless unless you assume someone is listening.
My opinion may not actually be good business - if a person is explaining why they aren't a paying customer, whether consciously or unconsciously, of course the business wants to know. But my civil instincts still favour a "one paying customer, one vote on our priorities" approach, despite the risk that your game will suffer from the Survivor effect and slowly alienate its minorities one by one.
Do you have the right to complain about Air quality? I mean technically you don't pay for the air you breathe so why should anyone listen to you if you got cancer or a weakened immune system from breathing in pollutants all those years! That's your problem you should have rented that gas mask they have at the pollution plant's stores for $15 a month, everyone's doing it!
Originally posted by maplestone No representation without taxation.
Complaining is not representation. No one says the dev has any obligation to listen.
The question is rather pointless unless you assume someone is listening.
My opinion may not actually be good business - if a person is explaining why they aren't a paying customer, whether consciously or unconsciously, of course the business wants to know. But my civil instincts still favour a "one paying customer, one vote on our priorities" approach, despite the risk that your game will suffer from the Survivor effect and slowly alienate its minorities one by one.
In that case, the question is moot. Devs are free to ignore anyone, including paying customers.
And even if it is a good policy to listen, there is no "right", and no involvement involved here. Devs are not obligated to listen.
Comments
Can you? Yes.....I think the better question would be, does a free player have the right to demand things?
Everyone can complain, demand, or whatever, but if the demographic of players asking for something is the percentage that do not pay any money into the cash shop or whatever, then no one will probably care much.
That shows a lack of understanding of the business model.
Free players are content for the paying whales. Whales would not be as loyal, or as motivated to pay up, if there are no content around.
That is why you can play the whole game PS2 for free. And the free dudes matter because if it weren't for them, the whale who bought the expensive sniper rifle has few others to shoot at.
You've thoroughly confused me. It's not as much a business model as it is just a business trend, and like all trends, it will eventually fade into something else. It was once shown that froobs were easy to milk with cash shops, thus everyone wanted a piece of it. But since it IS a trend, everyone started doing it, and it's not working out as well as it might have been when it was first put into use by only a few publishers.Now I'm not sure what kind of drugs you take while playing hello kitty, but trying to translate your thoughts into something resembling a counter response. I'm going to have to say that freeloaders are not content unless it's for pvp purposes, which in this age of MMO's has a very tiny slice of the popularity it once had due to the xbox generation being a bunch of whiny sissies, so is irrelevant, even assuming whales with sniper rifles could somehow manage a trigger and ultimately find themselves as a lasting proponent in any of the higher populated mainstream titles lol!
"Do free players have the right to complain about anything?"
Regarding the game they play for free; No, no rights what so ever. They will still do it because they can.
What are you smoking?
When you hit the LFD "PUG" button, free players are your content.
Plus, the most popular online game (more active players than WOW) is a pvp game. PS2 is a pvp game. What is this nosense about pvp is a tiny slice?
fair enough. then why do we keep seeing threads and polls and rants about Free Players who spend not a penny in the cash shops, when it is most likely less then 1% of the playerbase ? In a way you reinforced my original point even more.
Actually no, the reasons are the same...protecting a product. MMORPG is being paid to hype products, an offical forum is by a company, for their product. Now go to a independant site, say like the Nexus, which is a MODDING site...forums are filled with pros and cons in game topics...hell, TESO is being ripped to shreds there for bastardizing the IP and turning it into DaoC 2.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
less than 1% ....are you kidding ? Maybe in older pay to win games where the freeloaders have all moved on, but in the newer ones that sell mostly cosmetic and boost items like tera. They make up the bigger portion and they complain about everything that cost money. That's the whole point of the thread.
They're everywhere and they're annoying and they make no secret of the fact that they will never spend a dime on the game. THAT is the type of person that this is about. You are just a typical customer that f2p is marketed at.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
puzzle pirates wrote up their history a few years ago
Puzzle Pirates - a study in Free to play revenue
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4046/what_are_the_rewards_of_.php
only about 10% of his player base has ever paid him anything. As a result, he says, approximately 5,000 gamers are generating the $230,000 in revenue he sees each month.
EQ2 fan sites
I played WoW and complained, or better say, told, explained and suggested, only once.
I think devs there are smart enough to make game better without need tons of complains.
I played like 5 f2p games and complain only about the one, as I found it too greedy and safe less (looked as scam to me to be honest).
I played runescape and never complained till the end of 2007, then posted my thoughts and left. Unfortunately they got me back with nice looking changes; only it was great lie and big disappointment, so I did complained for real.
conclusion: YES we can and MUST complain if game not offer what it should, what we pay for, or if devs lie to us, or when they got too greedy, or, more important, when they let game to be destroyed by bots, gold sellers and other crap w/o taking appropriate actions.
game is nothing else as consumers product and if such product not reach the promised quality, complain may add to get it better or to get refund and move away (shame I never got refund so far, which is not normal for any product anymore).
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Empty servers are fun! That's why so many MMO's went from f2p to full sub.
Yes, in f2p, the free players are part of the product for the whales/subs. Without, mmo's would be less 'mm'
Think about this before you spew second rate citizen crap.
Love that!
Complaining is very different from citicism IMO. Pretty obscure reference to make a very informed choice on but I say everybody should be able to speak their mind.
What is the complaint? Would it be solved by paying?
Unfortunately the poll lacks in direction. We all have a 'right' to complain, I'm sure even some complaints on forums have come from people not having ever touched the game their post was directed at. Such is the internet.
The gaming company would probably only listen to, and change anything if enough of the complaints showed a negative impact on revenue, be it paid subscription of F2P.
Right/wrong, valid/invalid, factual/fiction have little to do with it, unless we're talking about bugs, errors that impede the playability and stability of the game itself as opposed to not liking how some use a certain mechanic to their advantage as an example.
The first would be most likely fixed right away while the other would depend on how many complain about it versus those that might actually enjoy it, without it being an exploit.
Freedom of speech is a right that most countries have and not even agreeing to any site's ToS or a game's agreement changes that. The consequences of going against either are clearly written but they never supercede your right to free speech. We're talking forums and games here, not world governments and slander. Not to be interchanged.
As someone else posted, our right to voice and the belief we have a right to be given anything is vastly different. Many seem to confuse the two.
my two cents..
Complaining is not representation. No one says the dev has any obligation to listen.
The question is rather pointless unless you assume someone is listening.
My opinion may not actually be good business - if a person is explaining why they aren't a paying customer, whether consciously or unconsciously, of course the business wants to know. But my civil instincts still favour a "one paying customer, one vote on our priorities" approach, despite the risk that your game will suffer from the Survivor effect and slowly alienate its minorities one by one.
Do you have the right to complain about Air quality? I mean technically you don't pay for the air you breathe so why should anyone listen to you if you got cancer or a weakened immune system from breathing in pollutants all those years! That's your problem you should have rented that gas mask they have at the pollution plant's stores for $15 a month, everyone's doing it!
Waiting on: The Repopulation
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
In that case, the question is moot. Devs are free to ignore anyone, including paying customers.
And even if it is a good policy to listen, there is no "right", and no involvement involved here. Devs are not obligated to listen.
I vote for no.
Reason being, you shouldn't complain if you aren't paying for something.
Do you honestly believe that the original poster was asking a legal question?