Poll: Do you want a /stick command that works on enemies?

boxsnd

For those who didn't play DAoC: 

If you type /stick (or use a /stick macro) you start following another player (enemy or ally) which means you don't have to move your character at all to stay in range and melee him. It made melee combat kind of easy mode IMO.

 

WoW had a similar command (/follow) but it only worked on friendly players.

 

I would love to hear your arguments for both yes and no.

 

Note that the movement in CU probably won't have acceleration and decceleration like DAoC.

BizkitNL

I'm voting no, simply because the concept itself is just.....stupid.

meddyck

I've always thought /stick (and /assist and /face) were useful commands and never really understood the hate towards them. It was hard enough in DAOC spamming styles and backup styles on melee classes without having to manually keep your target in range. I'd be fine with these commands being in CU.

Vrika

No, because players have to play the UI-minigame too much as it is. Further eliminating the need to look at the actual gameworld and situation instead of just using the UI is not a good idea.

Voiidiin

/stick or /follow just = macroing. In a PvP game i think macroing should be nonexistent. Rift allowed macro in an overabundance and for me it ruined the game. If you did not macro you did not PvP or Raid, or other higher level things. I am not a fan of forced macroing (even if its not forced by the devs) i am also not a fan of gearscore and other marginalizing of players.

Yes back in the early days of DAoC /stick had its place, but it ended up being a crutch i feel for lazy players.

No offense intended to those who enjoy it, but to me it does nto belong in a PvP environment. 

Storm_Fireblade

If you want to hit someone, then aim! Thats my two cents here. I hate it being forced to use addons, macros etc just to keep up. I want to play the game and use my own skills for that.

Despite of that - I do like a follow-command, so if you need to take a quick break when travelling, you still can follow your teammates.

sketocafe

I'd want to see something like that in a game that had no collision detection for other players. Running through/around people like a moron while spamming attacks is on par with bunny hopping and dolphin diving in BF2, as far as I'm concerned, and such a command would shut that right down.

Ailingforale

I voted no because I feel the enemy needs to make the effort to keep up with me.  I'm willing to run amuck in PVP, it's not that hard.  

I still love my /follow for the reason stated above, quick breaks.

time007

If you voted no, please go back to Halo and get your FPS out of my RPG.  Nuff said

Masita

Originally posted by Vrika
No, because players have to play the UI-minigame too much as it is. Further eliminating the need to look at the actual gameworld and situation instead of just using the UI is not a good idea.

Makes no sense. (Global) Cooldowns and the missing of /stick and /face eliminated the possibility to look at the situation and to have more tactical fights.

CluckingChicken

The only reason we would need /stick commands is if the character control is absolutely terrible. With fluid movement that's expected of ANY game in this age, a /stick command just makes it easier for facerollers and bots. No thanks.

Aeonblades

I'm going to vote no here for 2 reasons:

1. Adding /stick commands cheapen the feel of strategic combat, and make you a worse player. Even in DAoC if you just /stuck someone, and spammed your attacks you were doing it wrong. Positionals, positionals, positionals. You could always tell someone who knew what they were doing by how they abused/mastered circle strafing. Let's not repeat a system that punishes players fighting strategically, or encourages players to /stick and just watch their hotbars.

2. It essentially encourages people to be lazy, which I don't agree with in any skill heavy PvP combat MMO. I want someone to move around in combat when I'm fighting them, but not have a bunny hop fest. /stick ends in 1 of 3 ways usually in DAoC: Someone is a better player and can land strafe hits, both people stand there staring each other in face slowly wittling each other down, or they are silly and try to run without sos or something exposing their fleshy back. Either way no skill was expended with a /stick keybind. 

Just talking about this makes me miss my armsman though

That said I do believe there should be a /follow command usable on people in YOUR group only, this way groups stick together and you dont have that random skald/minstrel/bard being a butthole following your 8 man around for free RPs :P

Nibs

/stick helped combat the circle strafing and bunny hopping. The fact that strafing also had a slower movement rate helped as well.

/face was excellent for against archers as otherwise it was completely impossible to tell where we were (yes, I was scout). Until they added visible arrows that ALWAYS pointed towards the archer. Which wasn't as good.

Darrgen

It really depends on the movement system in the game. If the movement is WoW/WArhammer/GW2 style movement then there is no need for stick on enemies. If it is like DAoC then yes you need it. Preferably though, the movement is updated like WoW and you only need a stick for friendly targets. maybe a /face button but that's it for enemies

 

Ice-Queen

I don't mind it myself, let them /stick to me. More often than not in DAOC I'd destroy someone that was /stuck to me and I never used it. *Edit* I never used it on enemies that is, but I'd /stick when afk'ing for potty break.

jtcgs

No. That was one of the many in a long line of crap ideas that made DaoC PvP for carebears. If you dont have the skill to even follow your enemy you really shouldnt be PvPing at all.

Aeonblades

Originally posted by jtcgs
No. That was one of the many in a long line of crap ideas that made DaoC PvP for carebears. If you dont have the skill to even follow your enemy you really shouldnt be PvPing at all.

+1, said it a lot better than my 3 paragraph explanation.

Eolex

If you want to get rid of the /stick /face macros and instead have bunny hopping straffing artards in combat, at least keep the 0 Dmg for strafing in the game. DAoC RvR along with all of its mechanics are what made a great PVP experience, then along comes WoW with its Heavy hotkey gameplay where the only situational move is a backstab from rogues, and that was easy to pull off since Rogue had soo many on demand CC's. DAoC was a differnt breed of combat, with style chains and multipul positional abilities, with negated dmg if you were busy moving while spamming abilities... While some feel this was stupid and not twitching, Bunny hopping artards broke the emersion just as much in newer MMO's. I had no idea a person in a fantasy realm could bounce like a bunny while doing 720's in mid air, spamming there instant cast fireballs... just saying.

 

gregoryvg

I voted yes for the /stick command to work on enemies based on my experience with it in DAoC; it was a good feature, along with /assist.  It allowed smaller groups to take on larger groups, as effective targeting by the main assist and sticking allowed them to focus on high priority targets.  Then again sticking could backfire as if you weren't careful the stickee would run you through and AoE farm or out of healing range of your allies.  So unlike some others on this thread I think /stick actually adds a bit to the tactical componant of a battle.

Zinzan

/stick /face was one of the worst things about DAoC's pvp.

/stick, /face, runthrough, /face, runthrough, /face, runthrough, dead enemy....it was such a terrible way to exploit the LOS mechanics in pvp and when lag came into play you could yo-yo all over the place using this combo.

I had fun dropping lame-ass stealthers off bridges in OF by making them rubber-band on stick and dragging them off the edges of the high towers, but generally it was a lame tactic.

fanglo

I voted yes. Current MMO's without /stick favor bunnyhopping mechanics which is way to twitchy for me. Free RPs as well as Lagged Again, 2 of the top 8man guilds used /stick and they did amazing with it. Like another poster said, stick allows you to focus on situational awareness better. Now obviously the people who just /stick and stay stuck for the majority of the fight are doing it wrong. You hit your assist button, stick to figure out exactly where the target is and then break /stick to get off your positionals, just like Free RPs and Lagged again did it.

 

botrytis

Originally posted by boxsnd

For those who didn't play DAoC: 

If you type /stick (or use a /stick macro) you start following another player (enemy or ally) which means you don't have to move your character at all to stay in range and melee him. It made melee combat kind of easy mode IMO.

 

WoW had a similar command (/follow) but it only worked on friendly players.

 

I would love to hear your arguments for both yes and no.

 

Note that the movement in CU probably won't have acceleration and decceleration like DAoC.

It will be exploited to all get out. Sorry, that is why there is cripple, sticky bombs, daze, etc that is what conditions are for. If you want to cheap out a game experience then do so by all means.

 

This is one dumb idea.

 

Jostle

Interesting. There seems to be this thought that without /stick we would necessarily have bunny-hopping. I disagree. Make jumping cost endurance. Or increase incomming damage. Or both. That'll castrate those bunnies. Stupid bunnies.

Back on topic... I voted no. And I surprised myself. I say yes, a follow command for friendly players that's as snappy and quick as /stick would be great (I always felt like this command in other games didn't work as well for some reason, like I was following them from too far back and getting stuck in terrain as a result) but for enemies, it's really not necessary anymore.

Jimmac

Yes, I do want a /stick command. And /assist name or /assist defensive target.

Before explaining why, I want to briefly explain that I believe what made DAOC's pvp great was the combat mechanics. By combat mechanics, I mean movement mechanics, spell abilities and their complexity, combat rules (such as if you are hit with a melee weapon, your spell casting is interrupted; crowd control timer equations, etc.), and the need for constant positioning for some classes (usually dps casters and healers) depending on the current combat situation.

It seems to me that most people cite the fact that DAOC had 3 realms as the main reason the pvp was great. Having 3 realms was nice, but it was not the primary reason...at least not for me. It was just icing on the cake, and it really helped build realm loyalty. But think about Warhammer. 3 realms wouldn't have transformed the combat into something exciting and challenging. Look at The Secret World. It has 3 realms and the combat is just a slam-into-each-other fest where the side with the most glance tanks (the OP build right now) wins.

So now back to my original point. A /stick command on enemies may very well be necessary for DAOC-like pvp to occur in Camelot Unchained. It sounds counter intuitive, but without /stick, the combat risks being watered down. Think about it. If you are a squishy caster and let 3 melee dps'ers get on top of you and stick you, you are going down within seconds. You probably can't shake them and you are being interrupted. Your primary job in a fight is (usually) to stay alive. Stay alive, and then as much as possible, fulfill your class role.

If the high dps melee enemies have /stick, then that means you have to extend. That means you have to kite. You need to be paying constant attention to where you are, where your tanks/dps are, where the healer is, and where all those things for the enemy realm are. This is where the game gets strategic and tactical at the same time. You are playing in a group with 7 other players and your casters are trying to extend while not getting too far from their own melee classes. Meanwhile, your DPS'ers are trying to take down enemies in the thick of the battle while trying to make sure not to get too extended from the casters and healers behind them.

Yeah, the melees and tanks are sticking each other right in the middle of the battle so they can focus on their chains. They have to constantly make the decision of whether to stay sticked or try to get on someone else nearby or try to retreat to stay with their group. The healers know they only have a split second to start healing whoever the /stick train attacks next. All the while everyone is trying to maintain optimal positioning for their character. This is group coordination at it's finest.

With no stick, the melee combat becomes side stepping, circle strafing party where everyone is focusing on doing a circle dance around the opponent and not focusing on the awesome parts of a fight - the tactical positioning of everyone in the group and hitting your necessary abilities. Sure the healers still need to heal and casters still need to run from the tanks, but the threat is less, the need is less, the tactical requirements are lowered and watered down. The need for extension is less and so it just doesn't happen.

With no /stick, the fight strategies end up being the same for both sides - slam your team into theirs and mix around with each other in one general place until the team with more cookie cutter builds wins. Don't bother extending, since it probably doesn't matter. It sounds weird, but every mmorpg I see without stick suffers from this same symptom - side strafing maniacs. This comes at the expense of necessary or meaningful coordinated extension.

In short, the combat isn't fun in the long run.

If you want 8 manning, I think /stick is a necessary part of that. If you want 8 manning versus a zerg and being able to kill some of the zerg while extending and possibly surviving, then again, /stick is a necessary part of that. /stick makes tactical positioning matter for everyone on the board at all times, and requires everyone to be at the top of their game at all times. This is one of the things that makes the combat in DAOC awesome and skill based.

There are two types of mmorpg pvp - live action chess, or football with weapons. DAOC was live action chess. Warhammer, TSW, most other mmo's are football with weapons.

azzamasin

Originally posted by BizkitNL
I'm voting no, simply because the concept itself is just.....stupid.

Espcially when its jsut as easy to code it into the core system of the game like every single MMO ever made.

azzamasin

Originally posted by Jimmac

Yes, I do want a /stick command. And /assist name or /assist defensive target.

Before explaining why, I want to briefly explain that I believe what made DAOC's pvp great was the combat mechanics. By combat mechanics, I mean movement mechanics, spell abilities and their complexity, combat rules (such as if you are hit with a melee weapon, your spell casting is interrupted; crowd control timer equations, etc.), and the need for constant positioning for some classes (usually dps casters and healers) depending on the current combat situation.

It seems to me that most people cite the fact that DAOC had 3 realms as the main reason the pvp was great. Having 3 realms was nice, but it was not the primary reason...at least not for me. It was just icing on the cake, and it really helped build realm loyalty. But think about Warhammer. 3 realms wouldn't have transformed the combat into something exciting and challenging. Look at The Secret World. It has 3 realms and the combat is just a slam-into-each-other fest where the side with the most glance tanks (the OP build right now) wins.

So now back to my original point. A /stick command on enemies may very well be necessary for DAOC-like pvp to occur in Camelot Unchained. It sounds counter intuitive, but without /stick, the combat risks being watered down. Think about it. If you are a squishy caster and let 3 melee dps'ers get on top of you and stick you, you are going down within seconds. You probably can't shake them and you are being interrupted. Your primary job in a fight is (usually) to stay alive. Stay alive, and then as much as possible, fulfill your class role.

If the high dps melee enemies have /stick, then that means you have to extend. That means you have to kite. You need to be paying constant attention to where you are, where your tanks/dps are, where the healer is, and where all those things for the enemy realm are. This is where the game gets strategic and tactical at the same time. You are playing in a group with 7 other players and your casters are trying to extend while not getting too far from their own melee classes. Meanwhile, your DPS'ers are trying to take down enemies in the thick of the battle while trying to make sure not to get too extended from the casters and healers behind them.

Yeah, the melees and tanks are sticking each other right in the middle of the battle so they can focus on their chains. They have to constantly make the decision of whether to stay sticked or try to get on someone else nearby or try to retreat to stay with their group. The healers know they only have a split second to start healing whoever the /stick train attacks next. All the while everyone is trying to maintain optimal positioning for their character. This is group coordination at it's finest.

With no stick, the melee combat becomes side stepping, circle strafing party where everyone is focusing on doing a circle dance around the opponent and not focusing on the awesome parts of a fight - the tactical positioning of everyone in the group and hitting your necessary abilities. Sure the healers still need to heal and casters still need to run from the tanks, but the threat is less, the need is less, the tactical requirements are lowered and watered down. The need for extension is less and so it just doesn't happen.

With no /stick, the fight strategies end up being the same for both sides - slam your team into theirs and mix around with each other in one general place until the team with more cookie cutter builds wins. Don't bother extending, since it probably doesn't matter. It sounds weird, but every mmorpg I see without stick suffers from this same symptom - side strafing maniacs. This comes at the expense of necessary or meaningful coordinated extension.

In short, the combat isn't fun in the long run.

If you want 8 manning, I think /stick is a necessary part of that. If you want 8 manning versus a zerg and being able to kill some of the zerg while extending and possibly surviving, then again, /stick is a necessary part of that. /stick makes tactical positioning matter for everyone on the board at all times, and requires everyone to be at the top of their game at all times. This is one of the things that makes the combat in DAOC awesome and skill based.

There are two types of mmorpg pvp - live action chess, or football with weapons. DAOC was live action chess. Warhammer, TSW, most other mmo's are football with weapons.

Not disagreeing with your opinion because you're entitled to them but if the game was a 2 faction MMO it would of been a disaster.  The combat was in my opinion the worst part of the game to me it was always the community and the constant flow of kicking so much ass being on the winning side (Albion) and watching the other 2 factions try to double team us ever single day.  Take that away and you're left with a fairly standard and bland MMO.