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Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please
time007
Member UncommonPosts: 1,062
Dear Mark Jacobs/CU,
Please keep the stealth mechanics like DAOC and not like Warhammer.
I don't want stealth on a timer if I'm an infiltrator/stealther. Witchhunters in Warhammer had stealth for like 30 seconds and it broke if someone sneezed. Please retain the DAOC stealth mechanics, which were perfect. Please CU do not defer to the masses on this, as of course the majority of non stealthers will want stealth gimped to 5 seconds, timed, or some weak crap like GW2. Not even 5 minutes or some crap like a buff. Just leave it like DAOC please thank you.
Please note, replies to this thread saying, you suck if you need untimed stealth, or get some skills, hide behind a tree, or untimed stealth leads to loners who don't contrinbute crap, or untimed stealth leads to gank squads of stealthers camped at bridges can be addressed by me as they are posted on this thread. But in general:
A. Untimed stealth is a certain type of playstyle that worked in DAOC, but got changed over time in other games because casuals wanted to water it down (example: some players complain, hey im getting killed every time i try to cross this bridge to get to our keep that is being sieged! well i can counter, dont take the bottleneck/common route/road, and you can counter, hide behind a tree you dont need perma stealth etc, and the back and forth ensues, get some skills, no you get skills etc)
B. Untimed stealth can lead to people being loners, but thats their playstyle and roleplaying choice. And those guys still contriibute to the realm by taking out reinforcements running to and from keeps during raids. and if you are going to run down a road alone toward a keep thats being sieged, well guess what you might get jumped.
C. Gank squads of stealthers dont last long (maybe 1-2 months) cuz a group of 8 stealthers don't get jack in terms of RPS. Those stealth gank squads are just people's alts who get bored of running pugs.
D. Untimed stealth is a niche request, I know, and our voices can easily be lost in the long run (obviously, yes non stealthers will beg for stealth being limited to like 10-45 seconds) but don't ruin the game for us guys who have/want stealthers as our/only characters/mains (and please dont say well just roll a tank, because that is like me asking people to move to a different country). It would be like me trying to gimp your nukes or armor or shields etc. This is for the hardcore steatlthers who just play as stealthers because that is who we are. Its kind of like how some people get mad about MMORPGs turning into fast paced combat like FPS and how open world rvr/pvp has shifted to arenas and bgs. What you like is getting watered down due to mainstream/casual players. Its the same case for us steatlthers. what we expect/want is being watered down due to people thinking hey you only need "combat stealth" cuz games are nowadays MMOFPS. Well I want roleplay stealth for my MMORPG.
I know we can argue about this over and over, but the stealth mechanics worked in DAOC, so if it aint broke don't fix it. That's all the proof we need basically. I know many people have their individual stories and experiences about how they got ganked in WoW in an arena or battleground by rogues etc. But this ain't Wow, so if you have a story about a problem with perma stealth, please don't reference your non-DAOC experience. This game isn't Wow and won't be wow so don't gimp my stealth cuz you got ganked by rogues in an arena or BG in Wow.
And yes, please bring back archers with stealth too. In short, just use the same stealth formula as DAOC heheh.
(Side note: I didnt want to post a poll because it would be uber lopsided and stealth would probably be limited or nonexistant if it was up to the masses/polls).
(last side note: also if you could bring back 1-shot retain-stealth kills (which was a bug i know) like we had in the first 1-2 years of DAOC that would be great too heheh) Maybe I'm pushing my luck? It'd be a way to keep those cloth wearers in keeps on their toes you know? 
Yours truly,
Timetrapper (Lamorak)
Comments
Invisibility... I mean "stealth" is a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all MMOs forever.
I always find it interesting when the people who start talking about "good enough" and "real pvp" always seem to be immersed in taking their opponent by surprise where they can fire upon them several times before their opponent even knows where they are.
Where is the "good enough" in that?
Is there such a thing as skill based stealth or a penalty for not doing it "right"? That would at least make it so that those who are stealthy have to be good as opposed to just hiding in order to be successful.
I'm fine with real stealth and not some magic ability that cloaks players.
There's no skill in that.
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Indeed.
They say that people who don't want to be killed by a cloaker should stick to a group, but a cloaker can just solo around without a worry in the world and pick off people while they're not paying attention. They can go AFK all they like and will be safe.
Basic case of not being able to put yourself into other people's shoes.
And yes, invisibility should be abolished. Stupid mechanic.
Ps. my main in WoW is a rogue.
To tom-gore:
First off, you can't afk in stealth. You will get popped by another stealther. You can't afk in trafficked areas. Even non stealthers will find you and can see you if you arent moving in DAOC. But as a WoW fanboi I wouldnt expect you to know this. Also casters aoe certain areas so you will get uncovered and die. So the point of AFK'ing as a reason to not have non-timed stealth has been neutralized. I don't want to see it again.
Secondly, stealth is a stupid mechanic yes? Wow ok lets tell this to J.R. Tolkien since he wrote a series of books about a ring that gives you stealth. Why not also call R.A. Salvatore an idiot because of dark elves have items that can grant them stealth. Oh yeah the creaters of DAOC are stupid too, cuz they allowed in their game also ey? Oh yeah, and game makers nowadays who like combat stealth are the real awesome mmo creators then huh? Bet you also like the shift to FPS MMO's too? Go back to Duke Nuke em or something.
To sov-rath:
Hehe lets not let this post drift into the realm of how Party A (stealthers) go back and forth with Party B (non steatlhers) about their skill level and how they/us suxxors, or we/you are weak, or how we/you have no skills etc. I mean Daoc in its prime wasnt flooded with tons of consistent stealth zergs because in general you can't get a high RR zerging it up in a stealth group. You get like 80 rps when you kill some individual straggler with a group of 4 or more.
Also please don't lump us in with people who say "real pvp" and all that stuff. We aren't people griefing a respawn point 5 vs 1 or ganking lowbies. Non-timed stealth doesnt lead to that. Lack of rewards and RvR zones prevent that. I'm just talking about good ole fashioned early 2000's cocky troll tank dropping and hearing that sweet sweet "Ruzzahhh" sound they make as i take em down. (though sometimes they'd pop Ignore pain and I'd be up a creek)
Nah, maybe your joking, not sure, so sorry if this comes off too serious heh but I was just asking him to retain the properties of Daoc. That game had a subscription around 250K at its peak, and its decline was not a result of nontimed stealth. I'm not asking for anything that we see in GW2 or Wow, like the teleport to your target skill, or teleport directly behind them-skill or that kind of stuff. That crap is OP. I mean the only reason you would need the teleport skill is because your're on a timer and dont have time to position yourself IMHO. But again, that's from games nowadays, which again appeal to the masses/mainstream players and I don't want to transfer in these new school stealth mechanics (like bounce around your target 4 times with this 2 minute cool down skill or w/e they have in today's games). I think Mark already stated he wasn't gunning for that type of game thats going to try to grab tens of millions of subs.
I would prefer the mechanic in Warhammer, over the one in DAoC, and this coming from someone who plays stealther type alts, and had a pretty good one hidden in Darkness Falls.
If i remember correctly from the Warhammer beta, it was MJ who was the one pretty set against having stealthers have full time "invisiblility", but i could be wrong there, i do know it was someone.
I'm not sure people who are so vehemently against perma stealth played DAOC, where I think the mechanic was properly implemented, (though a balancing challenge for the Devs to be sure).
Stealthers actually weren't that powerful. Sure, they could devestate a sitting spell caster, but if they were standing it was still a real challenge to kill them, especially if you were an archer.
Against a well armored, same level tank stealthers had almost no chance in a protracted fight, only the best would even try and most made sure to gank in pairs against such a target.
Stealthers had a specific role in the game, to move through the battlefield, try to gank the lesser armored classes (healers wore chain in many cases, and were not soft targets btw) and of course, ganked other stealthers. Sure, they could finish off targets pretty well, but in a straight up fight (God help them if they went up against an experienced Friar up close) they usually lost.
Also, stealthers could not escape like a WOW Rogue can, once they decloaked, they were in the fight until the end, win or lose, and they didn't always win as any experienced stealther can tell you.
BTW, winning took some real skills, as an infiltrator I needed to be able to switch weapons mid fight (was not easy) to reapply poisions, especially against harder targets. Sure, i could gank a sitting caster without a challenge, but smart casters never sat down and rested if they didn't have counter stealthers circling them looking for enemy stealthers trying to get them.
I also ran in gank archery squads, and while fun, we had to chose our targets, were we to attack a full 8 man group we would never stand a chance, their healing, debuffs, buffs and coordinated combat would destroy us in seconds.
So sure, stealthers pick off the weak, and in a game like DAOC, stupid, who run out solo into the battlefield with no support (or a speeder like a Minstrel who could flash their party past a gank squad before they could even get into position.
If you never played DAOC, you have no idea how well coordinated battle mechanics really work and how viable the stealth classes could be, without totally rulling the field.
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Hi Marcus,
Thanks for the constructive reply back! I think its the first one of the thread. Most of the posts, including mine, have been more inflammatory hah, though not on purpose. Let's hope Mark takes nothing from Warhammer except the cool Witchhunter hats and clothes, and throws everything else from Warhammer, including its stealth characters out the window for good hehe.
Your first paragraph makes sense, except for the WoW fanboi part, but I'm glad if stealth will not be as powerful as it is in WoW.
Your second paragraph however, is complete gibberish and has nothing to do with the subject of stealth in games.
And by the way, you're talking about invisibility and not stealth. Stealth does not mean you vanish from plain sight.
I have always prefered the actual idea of a dynamic style of stealth that was somewhat based on the enviroment you were in, and could be infinite in the right setting. Such as that your rogue/stealther achives steath in heavy darkness, shadows, or or areas they can use cover in the area to hide (under a bridge, behind trees, boulders, alleyways, and such.) which i could see being infinite steath. While having abilties or such that would allow you to pop into a short term stealth, which could be more used for traveling undetected to places, evading people, or setting up imprompt-to ambushes on unexpected arrivals. In short i would love to see a system where when you enter stealth if you are within a place that would allow you to stay in it infinitely (such as using a camo-suit and hiding in the brush or forest, or hiding/moving thru the shadows of a city or dungeon), that when you enter or are in stealth in an area that would not allow infinite stealth (like in broad day light, An open flat plain, and such.) you have a duration or count-down till your stealth expires revealing you to those people in the area. Also if you are able to move during stealth, it should be at a much lower speed than normal, and even have it that based on what speed you are moving at, as well as the number of mobs/players in the area around you influence the chances of you poping out/being seen in stealth.
I dislike stealth in MMOs. Having played a stealthedr can see how it's pretty nice to be guaranteed to win all fights since you can just wait until you have the advantage before attacking. It's not so fun being on the receiving end, though.
I think they did it somewhat decently in Warhammer Online. You had to be tactical about when to go invisible instead of just being it all the time, so let's hope they do it like that rather than permanent invisibility like in World of WarCraft.
This. ^
(i played a shadowblade for many years)
I have always thought that it was crazy how that you could be stealthed out in the middle of an open field. Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed DAOC stealth and a lot of the aspects of it. However, I would like to see it implemented in a way that when you are in open areas stealth is disabled and either drastically reduced. It would add a dynamic to the game that open areas are safer and wooded/congested areas are less safe because you never know when stealthers are lieing in wait.
It's just an idea, and i'm sure there is a million holes in that idea, but a thought none the less.
^^This^^
I had a shadowblade in DAOC as well as my healer and friar. I always felt stealth in DAOC was rediculous as do I think it is in WoW as well.
Walking around invisible is rediculously overpowered, especially when your opener would take over half your opponents life, not to mention the stun they'd have on them....it sucks to have to stand there and not be able to do anything, and it's not good pvp to me, and there is absolutely no skill in killing your opponent with that kind of stealth and abilities.
Back in the day you'd run in stealth groups and destroy anyone you'd come upon, they'd have little to no chance of survival unless the zerg happened to come around and wipe you out. DAOC stealthers were the most overpowered I've ever played in any game.
I really Would NOT like to see that kind of stealth in Camelot Unchained.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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Having played a Shadowblade in DAoC from release in 2001 up until the launch of NF I long for an MMO with proper stealth mechanics like DAoC did.
No other game since has come close to that play style, like many I love the lonewolf style in gaming, it works hand in hand with my work life which is often unsociable hours so I don't get the chance and/or time to play at peak times. The only MMO since DAoC to hold my interest for more than a few months is WoW, it had good stealth but the class quickly got changed to be less effective.
If CU introduced stealth mechanics like DAoC and had an effective "ambush" class, i'd be all over it like a fat kid on a cupcake!
As mentioned in my OP, i would try to address any counter points:
in the first paragraph you mentioned, you just wait until you have the advantage before attacking, and then in the 2nd paragraph you mention you had to be tactical about when to go invisible. Well isnt waiting until you have the advantage, like if the target sits, runs off alone, stands around, lags behind his group, etc tactical?
Not sure we can address the issue of a "guaranteed win" with non timed stealth, because any stealther knows thats just not true. if you attack a sitting character in a keep then yeah it will be a guaranteed win, but in other cases its not. tanks have Ignore pain, casters can mez/stun run off, blow you to up etc I can give you another example of a guaranteed win. You see a stealther without invisibility/stealth in an open area, you run him down with your buddy or group because his stealth-on-a-timer ran out and you just waited until he reappeared. or as the idea has been flung out, hes partially stealthed because of his climate/surroundings, and you proceed to run him down/GB him.
Honestly, when I played a stealther in DAOC, i never complained about getting GB'd if unstealthed. It was my decision to be tactical about when to come out of stealth so if i got caught, then guess what, its open season on me.
As for point 2, well, warhammer moved toward the trend off sped up combat, no stick, 1 week of pve to level cap, etc. to say it did alot of bad things and some good things, would lead to a long conversation, so lets just pretend warhammer never existed, in this thread heheh.
Depends on which side has to have them enable or disabled, as in that a stealther would want to enable them so they can see the shadows, but regardless of them being enabled or not on other comps it would take the que from the stealther's pc or server side of where shadows are for when a stealther enters stealth. Crouching an crawling would be a nice added elements or even just aspects added for stealthers, and even others for more tactical choices in hwo you fight. With tab-targeting and floating names when the stealther enters into stealth their name-plate is diabled (regardless of what the other person' pc setting is, and anyone targetting them has their target on them dropped.
Ok let me provide a counter point to the "stealth is stupid and ridiculous" arguement. Magic is stupid and ridiculous. Its a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all games, nuking more specifically should be banned from all games. You can press a button and kill multiple targets in 3 seconds. (I.E. one chanter who runs up on a raid and starts pbae'ing everyone nonstop). So casters are OP'd cuz as a stealther I can't kill mutliple targets with 1-3 dagger swings the way nukers can kill 2 to 20 people with 1-3 nukes. Yes it happens in relic raids, those dumb enough to be near a nuker when hes ae'ing well, your SOL. So casters are stupid cuz i can't do what they do, and kill people as fast as them, at their speed at all. My abilities are so much more different than theirs!
Firstly I dont think magic is stupid, I'm just using your logic to approach your conlusion that stealth is stupid. Just making a point that we shouldn't devolve nontimed stealth mechanics into a war of, your skill is more OP than mine.
Lastly, invisibility means no one can see you. You can be seen with stealth, if you get close or near a certain radius. and other stealthers can see you. and don't get me started on vamps!!!!!!!!!!!! heheh.
I wouldn't have said it like this, but I do think invisibility as "stealth" is an old mechanic. 10 years ago that was the best they could do. It's just not the case anymore look at planetside 2 for example. Stealth is just that, not invisibility. Infilitrator armor uses an activie camo. The stealth person, in no way is invisible, but he can blend in with his surroundings.
To take it a step further enviorment detail when built correctly will allow a player to be stealthy, I will use AoW as an example. There your able to hide behind corners, in trees, behind trees, roof tops, ect.
I played a WoW rogue, and faced many more as a warlock being my main. Eat the sap and cheap shot ---> Death coil, dot dot dot fear drain --->Wait for his cloak of shadows (most likely instant) take a couple shots, trinket the Kidney shot. Rinse and repeat. For the poster a couple above it's just an old mechanic.
As long as there are no long range stealthers. Scouts, in DaoC were the worst. They had amazing range and had a ton of escape tools if things got rough. Quite literally a smart scout in DaoC should never die if they play it safe. Scouts IMHO really hurt the solo game in DaoC as they would add in on every fight from distance and there was very little a player could do to stop them. People claimed that the DPS of a scout was horrible, but even so they didnt' have to really kill anything to get rps. Wait for a fight to begin, pop off a few shots on the loser, run away and profit with a few rps.
Apart from that, my other concern is the ability to re-stealth in a fight. If you take a risk to attack a player, you shouldn't be able to re-stealth easily if things start going bad. I would say 30 seconds out of combat to re-stealth would be fine, with no abilities to make it so you can re-stealth immidiately.
Other than that, a stealther should never ever be able to move faster than a real player while stealthed. I'm not saying it should be super gimped, but something like you only go 90%.
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