You had to return to mog house, in FFXIV you change anywhere as long as you are not engaged.
Of course no where could you do what Sovrath is describing (changing in the middle of combat), and if he never saw anyone switch to an alt in an MMO to do certain content I imagine he hasn't been playing MMO's for very long (or in groups with others at least).
No one is "special" in an MMO. Some people have progressed to a certain point that others haven't, whether it is through alts or jobs that person has more options available to them. Some games just force people to have to create new characters and redo a bunch of extraneous content not at all tied to different jobs.
It is extremely tedious, but then most MMO's have such little or poor quality mid game content that they probably want to do everything possible to discourage you from experiencing it again as a different class.
I'm commenting on the idea, lieu of the "mog house" idea and wanting to allow greater access of abilities, of games allowing for a great availability of skills that are very different from one another. As I said in my orginal post, though part of my likes the idea of having only one character and playing different ways, it doesn't make sense. I'm a warrior and then I go to a place and suddenly I'm a mage, and then I go to that place again and suddenly I'm a healer.
Heck, even Lineage 2 had a similiar mechanic with subclasses.
I'd be more interested in having players add different skill but having to make a choice as to how advanced those skills could get in relation to others.
So in effect, a mage might have martial training but in the end he shines with magic whereas a warrior might have some magic at his disposal but in the end he is a warrior. But never allowing mastery in all disciplines. This at least, to my taste, seems a more organic way of adding different play styles without having one go to a location and completley change "into something else". Whch seems very clunky if one thinks of their character as "a character" Though I suppoes one can build in a lore reason as to why that is.
Of course I've seen people log into different characters but in my experience, the deeper you get into an enounter the more cumbersome it becomes to bring every alt a player has made in order to make it through to the end. Of course, people would sometimes have designated buffers they would place at an area and lot out and back into the game in order to access it.
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Rzyom has an interesting take on it: there are no classes, only skills. Skills cap out at 250.
The skill level acts as your "level" when using that skill. So, for example, if my skill is 150 at melee, and 50 at healing, I can play in a group fighting level 50's, as long as I only use my healing. Or, I could play in a group fighting 150's, and use my melee. I could use my healing skill at 50 fighting 150's, but if I used my 150 melee to fight 50's, I would ruin everyone's XP.
There is no need of alts, since if you want to learn a new skill, say crafting armor, or casting DPS magic, you can just start using that skill and levelling it. You still have the other skills available too, so if you gained 200 levels in melee, and now want to learn debuffing magic, you still have all the HP gains you got while learning melee, making it easier to survive.
I agree with you OP and will add level scaling to it. As long as the option to create an alt and stay at a fixed level is there I see no reason not two include class switching and level scaling other than someone's preference projected.
"well then why have levels?". It's simple, people like to see progress and if it's going to be a non skill based game then levels are the easiest way to accomplish this. Also, it provides a framework of where to go since level scaling in a level based game means there is a "gateway" to new content. Of course this is based on a themepark type game.
If WoW had level scaling and class switching I would enjoy it even more than I already do. For the interest of game continuity I do think there should be a process to it, not just walking up to a trainer and hitting a button.
Well in ways it would make sense in a sub-class system that your character has the option to expand, or focus their toolbox of abilties, by either keeping to one class or going into another for some other abilties. Like in D&D you could be a fighter an keep that job all your character's life, but someone else could sub-class into a mage for afew spells they liked and create a character that was different an in way weaker yet stronger than your pure fighter. Honestly it was also in D&D that certain races had classes they were more skilled at being, and so they were much more powerful than a even pure class version. This idea of having varied option in what class you are, what/if you sub-class, and what race you are would lead to both reasons to keep one character as well as reasons to re-roll too. One idea i do like about rift is hwo they feel that the deeper you specc into one soul/class the more effective that class/soul's abilties will be for you., it is like in the real world you can specealize an be ammazing at what you do, or deversify an be more able to deal with more situation.
I kinda agree with not having some kind of restriction on progression so that everyone isnt making master of everything tank-mage-healer God classes. I get that. But FFXI and FFXIV definately dont do that.
I think its important to point out the difference here between games with specialized classes, games with alts, and classless systems
WoW = specialized classes and you have to roll an alt to play a different class, but all quest/raid progress must be redone.
FFXI/FFXIV = specialized classes on the same character where all quest/raid progress is tied to the same character. Its basically like having alts only you arent having an identity crisis with having multiple yous. When you switch classes you cant switch anytime you want (like going between tank and mage while fighting a boss, you go in with tank you STAY tank). Switching classes in these games would be a complete switch of class and stats and you only had access to whatever you leveled a class too. And often times it would mean complete swtch in useable/neded gear. This is why I say its almost like having alts.
Asherons Call = Classless (same character and master of everything eventually)
I guess the most important differenece is that in a class switching game like ffxi, you cant be a master of everything and have access to all skills at the same time as you could with a classless system.
However, a completely classless system could work to with a few changes. Like bonus power for using skills of the same archetype. Or a build a deck of cards approach where you have limited ability slots and for each encounter you have to choose strategically what to take (even if you actually have mastered everything)
If set up right any system where you can experience all things on one character is better imo. You become more attached to that character because of the overwhelming amount you have invested in that one character. You are very versatile and able to help out in any situation without having to log out and bring in your alt. And it makes it less confusing when people dont have to attach a face to 5-6 different characters. The only legitimate reason why id even want to roll an alt if the system allowed class switching or a classless system, would be for RP purposes.
As to the problem of people wanting too much shit for their vast array of characters @ endgame. It is a problem, but I agree with the other poster that tokens would end that problem. If someone wants to level up 15 different classes on one charater, here are the tokens, distribute them as you see fit.
I LOVE games that allow you one character and the ability to do it all...not all at once but you get the point i think.
I detest rerolling alts. For most games its a matter of trudging through the same boring content over again just for some endgame variety.
In very rare cases ive enjoyed a reroll or two...but the process adds to burnout on the game, and they are game i can never go back to due to this burnout.
I love just redoing everything, I know I'm not the only one who likes making alts just for the sake of doing the storyline and game completely over, no matter how long it takes.
Originally posted by Theocritus Classes are fine...The whole "One character can do all" is total fail....Its a big reason why the games in the genre have gone downhill.
I would not say that a class-less system is fail or why the genre at all is going down hill. In a class-less system like tsw you can gain all of the powers/abilities in the game allows you to be able any space in a group, but the fact you have a finite amount of actively usable abilties/power slots serves the same role as a class does in class-systems. ALso this mimics real life as we all have varying amounts of skills we have learned, and we do in ways equip what is needed for what we will be doing, in this same way a class-less system the character merely equips what is needed for what is happening or needed in that content they are doing as it arrises (outside combat largely.). I honestly think this concept could be vary useful, and expanded into a very fun game sub-type alongside class-based games in mmos.
For the most part i would say it is the fact that devs, and companies have lowered the level of accountability, as well as accessablility that has lead to alot of mmos going downhill. People wanting to gain the same rewards as a raider, high rank pvper, or such while putting forth much less effort for those rewards. Also the fact of pushing the idea of having to use such things as aggro management (both tanks,a nd non-tanks), crowd control in instancces and such.), as well as trying to balance the game too heavily (it is fine to try and balance the classes/combo, but when your clases/combo no longer have an identiy of their own this is an issue.). I would also say that the pace at which we progress through a game's content 9leveling, questing, and even attaining level cap) is far too swung into the lightning fast speed, and should be toned back quite abit to where the devs have more time to both create as well as test/tune the content better. If they actually make the rate we leveled or progressed through the content (on average, as the extremes of the range are kinda worthless as they will finsih faster and account for less of thier money and time.) several times what it is, they could spend far more time on developing the content, as well as then making that prior content get more time being used.
Originally posted by Theocritus Classes are fine...The whole "One character can do all" is total fail....Its a big reason why the games in the genre have gone downhill.
I would not say that a class-less system is fail or why the genre at all is going down hill. In a class-less system like tsw you can gain all of the powers/abilities in the game allows you to be able any space in a group, but the fact you have a finite amount of actively usable abilties/power slots serves the same role as a class does in class-systems. I honestly think this concept could be vary useful, and expanded into a very fun game sub-type alongside class-based games in mmos.
For the most part i would say it is the fact that devs, and companies have lowered the level of accountability, as well as accessablility that has lead to alot of mmos going downhill. People wanting to gain the same rewards as a raider, high rank pvper, or such while putting forth much less effort for those rewards. Also the fact of pushing the idea of having to use such things as aggro management (both tanks,a nd non-tanks), crowd control in instancces and such.), as well as trying to balance the game too heavily (it is fine to try and balance the classes/combo, but when your clases/combo no longer have an identiy of their own this is an issue.). I would also say that the pace at which we progress through a game's content 9leveling, questing, and even attaining level cap) is far too swung into the lightning fast speed, and should be toned back quite abit to where the devs have more time to both create as well as test/tune the content better. If they actually make the rate we leveled or progressed through the content (on average, as the extremes of the range are kinda worthless as they will finsih faster and account for less of thier money and time.) several times what it is, they could spend far more time on developing the content, as well as then making that prior content get more time being used.
read this through twice and still confused, your all over theplace in what your saying im not even sure if this is a question or a statment,
plase clear up a bit so i can actully understand what your trying to say
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Originally posted by Theocritus Classes are fine...The whole "One character can do all" is total fail....Its a big reason why the games in the genre have gone downhill.
I would not say that a class-less system is fail or why the genre at all is going down hill. In a class-less system like tsw you can gain all of the powers/abilities in the game allows you to be able any space in a group, but the fact you have a finite amount of actively usable abilties/power slots serves the same role as a class does in class-systems. I honestly think this concept could be vary useful, and expanded into a very fun game sub-type alongside class-based games in mmos.
For the most part i would say it is the fact that devs, and companies have lowered the level of accountability, as well as accessablility that has lead to alot of mmos going downhill. People wanting to gain the same rewards as a raider, high rank pvper, or such while putting forth much less effort for those rewards. Also the fact of pushing the idea of having to use such things as aggro management (both tanks,a nd non-tanks), crowd control in instancces and such.), as well as trying to balance the game too heavily (it is fine to try and balance the classes/combo, but when your clases/combo no longer have an identiy of their own this is an issue.). I would also say that the pace at which we progress through a game's content 9leveling, questing, and even attaining level cap) is far too swung into the lightning fast speed, and should be toned back quite abit to where the devs have more time to both create as well as test/tune the content better. If they actually make the rate we leveled or progressed through the content (on average, as the extremes of the range are kinda worthless as they will finsih faster and account for less of thier money and time.) several times what it is, they could spend far more time on developing the content, as well as then making that prior content get more time being used.
read this through twice and still confused, your all over theplace in what your saying im not even sure if this is a question or a statment,
plase clear up a bit so i can actully understand what your trying to say
Basicaly saying that the idea of a class-less system being the reason mmos are going downhill is really blind, as in many ways when done you can make a class-less system have the same functality in ways as a clas-based system. Such as how in tsw you can learn all 500 powers in the game, but you must choose a finite number of those abilties to use (such as how a class has certain abilities that it uses for it's job. An so is like a template.), while also allows you to change your chosen powers/abilties to suit the need of a group or content. This allows the player more freedom as wel as making it that you do not have to re-roll a tank or healer to fill a spot.
The second part is how in many ways there are alot of other reasons you can say that mmos are going downhill, such as the fact people burn though content at lighttning speed an so the dev's need to release content faster leading to content that is not as well developed or tested as it should be. Also that alot of the players want the same rewards as other players without putting forwards the same effort, which dimishes the feel of acomplishment for doing such thigns (like gettinng raid-quality gear while doing 5 man content, or questing.). You also have the simiplifcation of the systems in the game, such as making many time a tank being the only person to have aggro-management work, or that crowd control is largely worthless in much content. It is easy to blame concepts you do not like for why a genre is failing or dimishing, but i was trying to show that alot is actually happening that is diminishing the genre.
Also if you need me to explain better or more, feel free to pm me.
Comments
I'm commenting on the idea, lieu of the "mog house" idea and wanting to allow greater access of abilities, of games allowing for a great availability of skills that are very different from one another. As I said in my orginal post, though part of my likes the idea of having only one character and playing different ways, it doesn't make sense. I'm a warrior and then I go to a place and suddenly I'm a mage, and then I go to that place again and suddenly I'm a healer.
Heck, even Lineage 2 had a similiar mechanic with subclasses.
I'd be more interested in having players add different skill but having to make a choice as to how advanced those skills could get in relation to others.
So in effect, a mage might have martial training but in the end he shines with magic whereas a warrior might have some magic at his disposal but in the end he is a warrior. But never allowing mastery in all disciplines. This at least, to my taste, seems a more organic way of adding different play styles without having one go to a location and completley change "into something else". Whch seems very clunky if one thinks of their character as "a character" Though I suppoes one can build in a lore reason as to why that is.
Of course I've seen people log into different characters but in my experience, the deeper you get into an enounter the more cumbersome it becomes to bring every alt a player has made in order to make it through to the end. Of course, people would sometimes have designated buffers they would place at an area and lot out and back into the game in order to access it.
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Rzyom has an interesting take on it: there are no classes, only skills. Skills cap out at 250.
The skill level acts as your "level" when using that skill. So, for example, if my skill is 150 at melee, and 50 at healing, I can play in a group fighting level 50's, as long as I only use my healing. Or, I could play in a group fighting 150's, and use my melee. I could use my healing skill at 50 fighting 150's, but if I used my 150 melee to fight 50's, I would ruin everyone's XP.
There is no need of alts, since if you want to learn a new skill, say crafting armor, or casting DPS magic, you can just start using that skill and levelling it. You still have the other skills available too, so if you gained 200 levels in melee, and now want to learn debuffing magic, you still have all the HP gains you got while learning melee, making it easier to survive.
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"well then why have levels?". It's simple, people like to see progress and if it's going to be a non skill based game then levels are the easiest way to accomplish this. Also, it provides a framework of where to go since level scaling in a level based game means there is a "gateway" to new content. Of course this is based on a themepark type game.
If WoW had level scaling and class switching I would enjoy it even more than I already do. For the interest of game continuity I do think there should be a process to it, not just walking up to a trainer and hitting a button.
@ ;Sovrath
I kinda agree with not having some kind of restriction on progression so that everyone isnt making master of everything tank-mage-healer God classes. I get that. But FFXI and FFXIV definately dont do that.
I think its important to point out the difference here between games with specialized classes, games with alts, and classless systems
WoW = specialized classes and you have to roll an alt to play a different class, but all quest/raid progress must be redone.
FFXI/FFXIV = specialized classes on the same character where all quest/raid progress is tied to the same character. Its basically like having alts only you arent having an identity crisis with having multiple yous. When you switch classes you cant switch anytime you want (like going between tank and mage while fighting a boss, you go in with tank you STAY tank). Switching classes in these games would be a complete switch of class and stats and you only had access to whatever you leveled a class too. And often times it would mean complete swtch in useable/neded gear. This is why I say its almost like having alts.
Asherons Call = Classless (same character and master of everything eventually)
I guess the most important differenece is that in a class switching game like ffxi, you cant be a master of everything and have access to all skills at the same time as you could with a classless system.
However, a completely classless system could work to with a few changes. Like bonus power for using skills of the same archetype. Or a build a deck of cards approach where you have limited ability slots and for each encounter you have to choose strategically what to take (even if you actually have mastered everything)
If set up right any system where you can experience all things on one character is better imo. You become more attached to that character because of the overwhelming amount you have invested in that one character. You are very versatile and able to help out in any situation without having to log out and bring in your alt. And it makes it less confusing when people dont have to attach a face to 5-6 different characters. The only legitimate reason why id even want to roll an alt if the system allowed class switching or a classless system, would be for RP purposes.
As to the problem of people wanting too much shit for their vast array of characters @ endgame. It is a problem, but I agree with the other poster that tokens would end that problem. If someone wants to level up 15 different classes on one charater, here are the tokens, distribute them as you see fit.
Depends on the game.
I LOVE games that allow you one character and the ability to do it all...not all at once but you get the point i think.
I detest rerolling alts. For most games its a matter of trudging through the same boring content over again just for some endgame variety.
In very rare cases ive enjoyed a reroll or two...but the process adds to burnout on the game, and they are game i can never go back to due to this burnout.
I would not say that a class-less system is fail or why the genre at all is going down hill. In a class-less system like tsw you can gain all of the powers/abilities in the game allows you to be able any space in a group, but the fact you have a finite amount of actively usable abilties/power slots serves the same role as a class does in class-systems. ALso this mimics real life as we all have varying amounts of skills we have learned, and we do in ways equip what is needed for what we will be doing, in this same way a class-less system the character merely equips what is needed for what is happening or needed in that content they are doing as it arrises (outside combat largely.). I honestly think this concept could be vary useful, and expanded into a very fun game sub-type alongside class-based games in mmos.
For the most part i would say it is the fact that devs, and companies have lowered the level of accountability, as well as accessablility that has lead to alot of mmos going downhill. People wanting to gain the same rewards as a raider, high rank pvper, or such while putting forth much less effort for those rewards. Also the fact of pushing the idea of having to use such things as aggro management (both tanks,a nd non-tanks), crowd control in instancces and such.), as well as trying to balance the game too heavily (it is fine to try and balance the classes/combo, but when your clases/combo no longer have an identiy of their own this is an issue.). I would also say that the pace at which we progress through a game's content 9leveling, questing, and even attaining level cap) is far too swung into the lightning fast speed, and should be toned back quite abit to where the devs have more time to both create as well as test/tune the content better. If they actually make the rate we leveled or progressed through the content (on average, as the extremes of the range are kinda worthless as they will finsih faster and account for less of thier money and time.) several times what it is, they could spend far more time on developing the content, as well as then making that prior content get more time being used.
read this through twice and still confused, your all over theplace in what your saying im not even sure if this is a question or a statment,
plase clear up a bit so i can actully understand what your trying to say
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Basicaly saying that the idea of a class-less system being the reason mmos are going downhill is really blind, as in many ways when done you can make a class-less system have the same functality in ways as a clas-based system. Such as how in tsw you can learn all 500 powers in the game, but you must choose a finite number of those abilties to use (such as how a class has certain abilities that it uses for it's job. An so is like a template.), while also allows you to change your chosen powers/abilties to suit the need of a group or content. This allows the player more freedom as wel as making it that you do not have to re-roll a tank or healer to fill a spot.
The second part is how in many ways there are alot of other reasons you can say that mmos are going downhill, such as the fact people burn though content at lighttning speed an so the dev's need to release content faster leading to content that is not as well developed or tested as it should be. Also that alot of the players want the same rewards as other players without putting forwards the same effort, which dimishes the feel of acomplishment for doing such thigns (like gettinng raid-quality gear while doing 5 man content, or questing.). You also have the simiplifcation of the systems in the game, such as making many time a tank being the only person to have aggro-management work, or that crowd control is largely worthless in much content. It is easy to blame concepts you do not like for why a genre is failing or dimishing, but i was trying to show that alot is actually happening that is diminishing the genre.
Also if you need me to explain better or more, feel free to pm me.