There'd be no place for anyone who isn't part of a mega-guild and doesn't consent to stick a headset in their ear.
Roleplay? Forget it.
Being yourself? Forget it.
This sort of "player driven" game isn't "driven by all the players." It's "driven" by some of the players. It gives "player freedom" to some, in exchange for "player tyranny" for most. It creates a cabal or a mafia, and everyone else either does what they say, or they get stomped on.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
There'd be no place for anyone who isn't part of a mega-guild and doesn't consent to stick a headset in their ear.
Roleplay? Forget it.
Being yourself? Forget it.
This sort of "player driven" game isn't "driven by all the players." It's "driven" by some of the players. It gives "player freedom" to some, in exchange for "player tyranny" for most. It creates a cabal or a mafia, and everyone else either does what they say, or they get stomped on.
This exactly. Though "player driven" isn't really the problem here, it's PVP what spoils it. In wurm online you can very well be yourself or what ever you want on one of the non PVP servers. PVP in player driven building games works only with a certain bunch of dedicated and matured players which a majority of PVPers are not these days.
No, sounds like it would get old really fast. I don't care how open you make it, I need something to guide me through the game that is NPC so that I don't have to log in at a certain time to sell my belongings to a vendor. I also would rather not like to worry about logging into my character only to realize that while I was in class/work, my house got blown up and my city had been take over by some nomads.
Can you imagine the amount of upkeep a city needs? You have to pay the guards, collect rent from players for having a house in your protection, maintain the waterways, the list goes on. Not my idea of having fun.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Originally posted by BitterClinger The problem with "completely player-driven" worlds is that most players are either idiots, asshats, lazy, or some combination of the three. I already live in a world run by idiots. I don't want my game world to be so life like.
While you have this lovely naive idea that everyone woule be super happy with an ultra sandboxy type game the reality is that it will just be reigned by griefers. These are the people programmed out of GW2 and I like that. (Note: GW2 is nice but has nowhere near enough content)
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
The vast majority of sheeple that play MMO's don't just need their hand held, they WANT their hand held from point A to point B. There isn't much interest in a game where you make your own content. Look at WoW. It completely holds your hand all the way through the game. Dying outside of raid is damn near impossible. It's not a difficult game in the slightest. This is, in fact, how almost every MMO is these days.
The days of sneaking through a forest at night, not being able to see very far in front of you and being able to hear skeletons somewhere off to your left, and if you run into them you're probably going to die... those days are long gone. Now it's just the devs grabbing your hand at character creation and the two of you skipping and frolicking to max level while whistling the tune to little house on the prarie.
This is why EVE is such a niche game. Everything you use in game, is made by another player and there is no instancing at all so even if you're participating in dev generated content, anyone can come in and poop on your parade. It doesn't happen that often, but it CAN and that's what makes EVE unique and wonderful.
A lot of people don't give EVE more than a few hours before quitting. It's because EVE doesn't have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff and there are people standing at the top of it waiting to kick you back to the bottom just when you think you've learned something.
Personally, that's why I love it. After playing on and off for eight years, I can honestly say that I still only understand about 45% of the game. I understand my little corner. The things that I particpate in, I know those things very well, but the activities that I have never participated in, would be like starting the game all over for me.
EDIT: I see a few posters in this thread keep bringing up the point about griefers, but honestly, the non griefers tend to band together to police the griefers in open ended games.
I know, I was part of one of these groups when I first started EVE. The area that I was living in had one really good NPC mission agent that paid really well when you did missions for him, but the ptoblem was that it was in a low security area. Pirates figured out that we were running missions there so they formed together in a corporation to start hunting us and killing us in our missions.
Well, we put our own intelligence channel together, and only let known missions runners into it. Then, when the pirates would show up, we would all jump in a PVP ship and band together to push them out of our system. We called ourselves something like the Molden Heath Defense Force, and a lot of us ended up quitting the carebear scene and made pirate hunting our sole profession. I know. I was the co-CEO of the first pirate hunting corp.
Players WILL police players if you give them the tools to do so. In our case it was as simple as being able to form our own chat channel where we could share intel on where they were and what they were doing.
A lot of people don't give EVE more than a few hours before quitting. It's because EVE doesn't have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff and there are people standing at the top of it waiting to kick you back to the bottom just when you think you've learned something.
Actually I quit even within an hour. Not because the game was too hard or anything else. But the combat was borring as hell to me. I wanted to be able to control my ship like a flgiht sim. Not just tell it to orbit targets and fire. I understand there is a lot of tactic's to EVE and it's not as simple as that. But I wanted the ability to play like a flight sim, doing barrel rolls etc.
That's a huge reason I'm really excited for Star Citizen.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Every experience I've ever had with player-created content leads me to conclude that most players are not good creators.
A lot of people dabble at painting, or writing. But grade the entire world of art from Rembrandt to Holiday Inn...or worse. What tiny fraction of them would you grade "at least commercial quality"? And how many never create anything even that good?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This ideas and the few already existing samples (MO, Darkfall) lead to a world close to real life, just worse due to the lack of any justice. Developers of such games at this point usually like to state that justice has to come from players which is just another wet dream. It simply doesn't happen except some very rare occasions. As soon players are strong enough to provide such justice they usually find other things more interesting and I even can't blame them. Playing police in a game wouldn't be my favourite activity either.
OP, While Ultima Online was GREAT I would not play a game like that again, the genre has grown with many new ideas in terms of gameplay. I would PERHAPS give it a go if it werent open PvP.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I personally wouldn't but it would be nice since I'm not sure that slot is filled by a title at the moment.
I'm all for having MOST of the world be decided by the players but I think there should be some loose framework and lore to the game by devs. Kill anyone/full loot? There are game changes that have to go along with this and I'm not a fan.
I am really looking forward to finding out what "player driven content" EQN will have as I hope it will strike a balance between dev/player content. As my sig implies I think the best thing devs can give players are tool and systems to feel engrossed in the game, not just follow the dev's laid out path.
Nope, wouldn't bother with it. Player driven content has a history of being a major letdown for me, now I just avoid it because Chuck living in his parents basement trying to relive the old D&D DM days doesn't cut it for playable content.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
EDIT: I see a few posters in this thread keep bringing up the point about griefers, but honestly, the non griefers tend to band together to police the griefers in open ended games.
I know, I was part of one of these groups when I first started EVE. The area that I was living in had one really good NPC mission agent that paid really well when you did missions for him, but the ptoblem was that it was in a low security area. Pirates figured out that we were running missions there so they formed together in a corporation to start hunting us and killing us in our missions.
Well, we put our own intelligence channel together, and only let known missions runners into it. Then, when the pirates would show up, we would all jump in a PVP ship and band together to push them out of our system. We called ourselves something like the Molden Heath Defense Force, and a lot of us ended up quitting the carebear scene and made pirate hunting our sole profession. I know. I was the co-CEO of the first pirate hunting corp.
Players WILL police players if you give them the tools to do so. In our case it was as simple as being able to form our own chat channel where we could share intel on where they were and what they were doing.
You had an area of space that was safe enough to allow the coordination and formation of a defense force. EVE could not exist without Highsec.
What the OP is proposing is a world without a safety net. In other words, completely remove the police force in Highsec and then watch what happens.
The only police force in such a world would be run by the griefer oligarchy that eventually takes over.
Originally posted by rojo6934 player driven mmo.... mmmh, i would play it for free. If we (the players) are going to drive the game i dont see a reason to pay other than perhaps the box, but if its pvp focused then not a chance.
I hear bandwidth, servers, development, support are all provided by magical faries who work for free.
Players policing griefers doesn't really work in the long run. It requires people to do it constantly and what happens is people want to play the rest of the game as well. So you have a constant turnover of people dedicating themselves as "police" and only a few people willing to do it for long periods or organize finding new people. Eventually those people leave or want to do other parts of the game as well.
In the long run, there is no consistent police force and the griefers get to run amok.
The same situation exists with destroying buildings/property people have built. People want to play the rest of the game, after rebuilding them 2, 3, 4... times people get tired of doing that. After defending their building 2, 3, 4... times people get tired of doing that.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Players policing griefers doesn't really work in the long run. It requires people to do it constantly and what happens is people want to play the rest of the game as well.
Well then if nothing else it would serve as a valuable social education tool for libertarians and hippies.
Comments
... and there you see PvP on a grand scale with meaning. Not street thugery, but purposefull naked captilism and freebooting.
Not a game I found to my taste but IMHO the best sandbox out there at the moment.
Agreed already tried, even UO needed police to prevent roaming pkers from getting away with it constantly.
There'd be no place for anyone who isn't part of a mega-guild and doesn't consent to stick a headset in their ear.
Roleplay? Forget it.
Being yourself? Forget it.
This sort of "player driven" game isn't "driven by all the players." It's "driven" by some of the players. It gives "player freedom" to some, in exchange for "player tyranny" for most. It creates a cabal or a mafia, and everyone else either does what they say, or they get stomped on.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This exactly. Though "player driven" isn't really the problem here, it's PVP what spoils it. In wurm online you can very well be yourself or what ever you want on one of the non PVP servers. PVP in player driven building games works only with a certain bunch of dedicated and matured players which a majority of PVPers are not these days.
No, sounds like it would get old really fast. I don't care how open you make it, I need something to guide me through the game that is NPC so that I don't have to log in at a certain time to sell my belongings to a vendor. I also would rather not like to worry about logging into my character only to realize that while I was in class/work, my house got blown up and my city had been take over by some nomads.
Can you imagine the amount of upkeep a city needs? You have to pay the guards, collect rent from players for having a house in your protection, maintain the waterways, the list goes on. Not my idea of having fun.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Indeed.
It depends on how good the game is. I dont really care about sandboxes or themeparks, I just want a good fun game.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
Boring, pointless, full of greifing.
While you have this lovely naive idea that everyone woule be super happy with an ultra sandboxy type game the reality is that it will just be reigned by griefers. These are the people programmed out of GW2 and I like that. (Note: GW2 is nice but has nowhere near enough content)
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
The vast majority of sheeple that play MMO's don't just need their hand held, they WANT their hand held from point A to point B. There isn't much interest in a game where you make your own content. Look at WoW. It completely holds your hand all the way through the game. Dying outside of raid is damn near impossible. It's not a difficult game in the slightest. This is, in fact, how almost every MMO is these days.
The days of sneaking through a forest at night, not being able to see very far in front of you and being able to hear skeletons somewhere off to your left, and if you run into them you're probably going to die... those days are long gone. Now it's just the devs grabbing your hand at character creation and the two of you skipping and frolicking to max level while whistling the tune to little house on the prarie.
This is why EVE is such a niche game. Everything you use in game, is made by another player and there is no instancing at all so even if you're participating in dev generated content, anyone can come in and poop on your parade. It doesn't happen that often, but it CAN and that's what makes EVE unique and wonderful.
A lot of people don't give EVE more than a few hours before quitting. It's because EVE doesn't have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff and there are people standing at the top of it waiting to kick you back to the bottom just when you think you've learned something.
Personally, that's why I love it. After playing on and off for eight years, I can honestly say that I still only understand about 45% of the game. I understand my little corner. The things that I particpate in, I know those things very well, but the activities that I have never participated in, would be like starting the game all over for me.
EDIT: I see a few posters in this thread keep bringing up the point about griefers, but honestly, the non griefers tend to band together to police the griefers in open ended games.
I know, I was part of one of these groups when I first started EVE. The area that I was living in had one really good NPC mission agent that paid really well when you did missions for him, but the ptoblem was that it was in a low security area. Pirates figured out that we were running missions there so they formed together in a corporation to start hunting us and killing us in our missions.
Well, we put our own intelligence channel together, and only let known missions runners into it. Then, when the pirates would show up, we would all jump in a PVP ship and band together to push them out of our system. We called ourselves something like the Molden Heath Defense Force, and a lot of us ended up quitting the carebear scene and made pirate hunting our sole profession. I know. I was the co-CEO of the first pirate hunting corp.
Players WILL police players if you give them the tools to do so. In our case it was as simple as being able to form our own chat channel where we could share intel on where they were and what they were doing.
Actually I quit even within an hour. Not because the game was too hard or anything else. But the combat was borring as hell to me. I wanted to be able to control my ship like a flgiht sim. Not just tell it to orbit targets and fire. I understand there is a lot of tactic's to EVE and it's not as simple as that. But I wanted the ability to play like a flight sim, doing barrel rolls etc.
That's a huge reason I'm really excited for Star Citizen.
I imagine the game to turn out as well as these forum threads.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Every experience I've ever had with player-created content leads me to conclude that most players are not good creators.
A lot of people dabble at painting, or writing. But grade the entire world of art from Rembrandt to Holiday Inn...or worse. What tiny fraction of them would you grade "at least commercial quality"? And how many never create anything even that good?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I'm all for having MOST of the world be decided by the players but I think there should be some loose framework and lore to the game by devs. Kill anyone/full loot? There are game changes that have to go along with this and I'm not a fan.
I am really looking forward to finding out what "player driven content" EQN will have as I hope it will strike a balance between dev/player content. As my sig implies I think the best thing devs can give players are tool and systems to feel engrossed in the game, not just follow the dev's laid out path.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
You had an area of space that was safe enough to allow the coordination and formation of a defense force. EVE could not exist without Highsec.
What the OP is proposing is a world without a safety net. In other words, completely remove the police force in Highsec and then watch what happens.
The only police force in such a world would be run by the griefer oligarchy that eventually takes over.
I hear bandwidth, servers, development, support are all provided by magical faries who work for free.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Players policing griefers doesn't really work in the long run. It requires people to do it constantly and what happens is people want to play the rest of the game as well. So you have a constant turnover of people dedicating themselves as "police" and only a few people willing to do it for long periods or organize finding new people. Eventually those people leave or want to do other parts of the game as well.
In the long run, there is no consistent police force and the griefers get to run amok.
The same situation exists with destroying buildings/property people have built. People want to play the rest of the game, after rebuilding them 2, 3, 4... times people get tired of doing that. After defending their building 2, 3, 4... times people get tired of doing that.
Well then if nothing else it would serve as a valuable social education tool for libertarians and hippies.
Give me liberty or give me lasers