Originally posted by dmartination If a mmorpg company listend to their community 99% and the devs 1% do you think the game would be a lot better? Or 50 50? I am saying this because every game I play everyone says the company does not listen.
Games should be made with the "if you build it, they will come" attitude. When studios start to "listen" to thier fans too much, and start making changes depending on what the squeaky wheel says, they start to go down hill. In the same spirit of things, games that try and diversivy their audince too much, also end up making no one happy. This happens when dev's start listening to players too often; and since there are sooo very many different types of players out there, what one player wants, another will hate.
If you build it, they will come. Stick to your guns, don't change for anyone. If you made a quality product people will play it.
Originally posted by dmartination If a mmorpg company listend to their community 99% and the devs 1% do you think the game would be a lot better? Or 50 50? I am saying this because every game I play everyone says the company does not listen.
I don't think so. People have diffrent ideas and tastes. It's impossible to make a game that would satisfied everyone.
No, they wouldn't be better. Players do not think what's good for the game. They just want to have what they want. And that changes all the time. Today player X wants Z tomorrow he wants Y lol.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by SCVblue Runescape just listened to their customers and re-introduced 2007 servers of their game and I couldn't be happier
You've discoverd the 1%.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
well, have to disagree. I think most *do* know what they want, at least in any given moment of time.
But the 'community' is not a hive mind and the problem is that we all want different things. Plus the fact that most folks live in the trendy fashion-led thinking of the 'now' and their own little bubble of personal needs, which would make them horrible designers for a game that wouldn't launch for 4 or so years.
Game designers should in an deal world develop the game that *they* themselves want to play.
Sadly though, games companies are largely made up of the exactly the same people that I describe above, plus have invester and publisher pressures, so we see see lukewarm compromised design in pretty much everything.
The difficulty with listening to the community, is that people want so many different, often conflicting, things.
Meaningful PvP that changes the world.
Ability to enjoy the game fully without being affected by pvp
cant have both.
harder, more complex dungeons and encounters.
more casual encounters, but make sure they drop the same loot.
Vast minority does the hard stuff a few times for the novelty, then goes back to farming the easy version because its more efficient. Alot of people dont do things in MMOs because they are "fun" they do it because its time/effort efficient.
A good dev knows how to filter.
One of the biggest problems is budgets for AAA games are so bloated that they pretty much have to cater to the common donominator in order to ever hope to make that money back, and to get/keep investors
SWTOR is a classic example. iirc one of the DEVS had a whinge in an interview a while back and admitted one of the reasons the game had been a semi-failure is because they'd listended to the community too much.
Just because your into playing games doesnt mean your any good at making games
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
Developers ruin games 99% because they listen to QQ.
Developers need to have a vision and stick to it.
UO: Ruined- carebares.
DarkSpace: Ruined- carebares
DaoC: Ruined.- winny little +++++ crying 24/7.
DaoC: Ruined- Devs Adding crap we didn't want or need.
Rift: Ruined- Dude I don't know wtf they where smoking.
GW2: .....
(Insert name) Fantasy asain MMO grinder: LOL. p2w dude I broke into a car and found 50 dollars in change, then loaded it on to this prepayed card!!!!!
Make your game. Stick to your vision. Attract the people that like your vision... enjoy.
You are the first person I have seen say anything real negative about Rift. Recently anyway. Figures it would be on these forums.
At any rate, the only MMO I think that could have done better had they listened to the player base is SWTOR. Other than that, no, the player base is usually self serving and ignorant to how thier 'wants' will effect the rest of the game.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I would hate to play a game based on the ideas of the majority of people on here, or in general.
It is far better if a game designer follows their own convictions with passion, and that we get a variety of games. There is never going to be one game that suits everyone, the more variety we get the better.
Although you can 100% tell when a developer has put passion into the game. Even if you don't like what the game offers it is something that you can see from a mile off.
SWTOR is a classic example. iirc one of the DEVS had a whinge in an interview a while back and admitted one of the reasons the game had been a semi-failure is because they'd listended to the community too much.
Just because your into playing games doesnt mean your any good at making games
Meh that is just Devs trying to push blame elswhere. The players NEVER asked for a feature length movies worth of cut scenes. I can go on, but no, that is just a dev being a little bitch. IF they said that at all.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Hmm, design-by-committee? Sure does sound tempting.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A great developer will know the difference between something that will enhance their game design and something that will adversely affect it.
The main problem though is that, as others have mentioned, people are not happy to just accept a game may not be for them. I cannot think of a game I have followed in the last 10 years that didn't have some whinny PvP'er shouting loudly that the game needs PvP, will fail without PvP etc...The same happens (although not as much in my opinion) in PvP games with people shouting for PvP options or to remove FFA PvP.
People know what they want, they just sometimes are so selfishly self absorbed that they cannot step away from whay they want to see that the game is just not for them (I do make exceptions when you have games that are clearly PvE or PvP games and the developers try and get more customers by introducing something that really doesn't fit - most recent example for me is TESo where they have removed lots of freedom to have PvP when the game is more about freedom and exploration)
In many cases the company should NOT listen to the gamers because quite often the gamers are pushing their needs/wants ahead of whats good for the game.
And, in my experience, many gamers are just plain stupid in regards to game balance and beneficial game mechanics.
QFT.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
No. Because 90% of the requests are either plain stupid or technically not feasible. Also "listening" costs development time and re-planning your schedulde doesn´t happen on the fly.
Developers need to start to specialize and diversify the game universe not listen to everyone and make another mixture of all previously released games.
They need to focus on what was back in the day called a niche, because its NOT a niche anymore!
But I will grant you, the hypocrisy just dripping from this thread is pretty amazing.
(The same people often tending to make pronouncements regarding how mmo's can be "saved", yet here they are recognizing that placing too much weight on forum yackyack just might be a really poor developer plan...)
Aw dammit, missed the 5000th post "birthday"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I know what i want a hell of a lot more then some company telling me what i dont want. because apparently i don't want...
Freedom - this is very vague and ambiguous. Just saying freedom means little. How do you define this?
progressive leveling - wait what? Leveling is in every single MMO out there. Also by definition leveling is "progressive". What do you mean by this?
huge seamless world - WoW has this.
Exploration - WoW has this.
sci fi - well there are sci-fi MMOs out there.
in depth crafting - again what do you mean by in-depth crafting?
weather - WoW has this.
Night & Day cycle - WoW has this.
controlable flying mounts - WoW has this
Seasonal change - WoW has this
swimming - WoW has this
jumping - WoW has this
terrain modification - as in Minecraft or something?
customization - again define this. Customisation with regard to? Character appearance, gear, skill trees etc? Here most people have super different opinions. When is customisation too little, when is it overdone?
other shit... - that's the most specific thing which you've mentioned
Which MMO are you talking about here. Cause if I pick WoW, it covers most of the stuff you have mentioned. See above. Also most of the things you have mentioned are already in MMOs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Nope, never. The community would not be 99% happyr because everyone has different views as to wha they think is 'perfect' for in game. Only the percentage of people that got what they wanted would be happy and that't wont be near 99%
the best way to show what happens if you try to do that is simply to ask the wow-nostalgia people individually of what they want from a classic "vanilla" server... You will get about as many different suggestions as people and most of it will be conflicting on one level or the other.
Generally speaking no, look at metrics, whats popular etc and work from that, however listening is a part of that which should never be ignored entirely.
Hell, look at DF:UW, if they had just listened to even 5 of the common suggestions made by fans, we wouldn't have the festering pile of shit that it currently is. A game which needed tweaking instead got the NGE treatment and it is woeful at best. DF:UW is a perfect example of when you ignore the community 100%.
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
Comments
Games should be made with the "if you build it, they will come" attitude. When studios start to "listen" to thier fans too much, and start making changes depending on what the squeaky wheel says, they start to go down hill. In the same spirit of things, games that try and diversivy their audince too much, also end up making no one happy. This happens when dev's start listening to players too often; and since there are sooo very many different types of players out there, what one player wants, another will hate.
If you build it, they will come. Stick to your guns, don't change for anyone. If you made a quality product people will play it.
I don't think so. People have diffrent ideas and tastes. It's impossible to make a game that would satisfied everyone.
Website: http://www.emrendil.com
TwitchTV: http://www.twitch.tv/emrendil
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Emrendil
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I know what i want a hell of a lot more then some company telling me what i dont want. because apparently i don't want...
Freedom
progressive leveling.
huge seamless world
Exploration
sci fi
in depth crafting
weather
Night & Day cycle
controlable flying mounts
Seasonal change
swimming
jumping
terrain modification
customization
other shit...
I'm not here to write a business report. I'm here to play games.
Not every possible conceivable idea has to be implemented into these games. But seriously lets see some frigon effort here.
You've discoverd the 1%.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
https://www.facebook.com/FUtilez ||| https://twitter.com/FUtilez ||| https://www.youtube.com/futilezguild
well, have to disagree. I think most *do* know what they want, at least in any given moment of time.
But the 'community' is not a hive mind and the problem is that we all want different things. Plus the fact that most folks live in the trendy fashion-led thinking of the 'now' and their own little bubble of personal needs, which would make them horrible designers for a game that wouldn't launch for 4 or so years.
Game designers should in an deal world develop the game that *they* themselves want to play.
Sadly though, games companies are largely made up of the exactly the same people that I describe above, plus have invester and publisher pressures, so we see see lukewarm compromised design in pretty much everything.
The difficulty with listening to the community, is that people want so many different, often conflicting, things.
Meaningful PvP that changes the world.
Ability to enjoy the game fully without being affected by pvp
cant have both.
harder, more complex dungeons and encounters.
more casual encounters, but make sure they drop the same loot.
Vast minority does the hard stuff a few times for the novelty, then goes back to farming the easy version because its more efficient. Alot of people dont do things in MMOs because they are "fun" they do it because its time/effort efficient.
A good dev knows how to filter.
One of the biggest problems is budgets for AAA games are so bloated that they pretty much have to cater to the common donominator in order to ever hope to make that money back, and to get/keep investors
SWTOR is a classic example. iirc one of the DEVS had a whinge in an interview a while back and admitted one of the reasons the game had been a semi-failure is because they'd listended to the community too much.
Just because your into playing games doesnt mean your any good at making games
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
You are the first person I have seen say anything real negative about Rift. Recently anyway. Figures it would be on these forums.
At any rate, the only MMO I think that could have done better had they listened to the player base is SWTOR. Other than that, no, the player base is usually self serving and ignorant to how thier 'wants' will effect the rest of the game.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I would hate to play a game based on the ideas of the majority of people on here, or in general.
It is far better if a game designer follows their own convictions with passion, and that we get a variety of games. There is never going to be one game that suits everyone, the more variety we get the better.
Although you can 100% tell when a developer has put passion into the game. Even if you don't like what the game offers it is something that you can see from a mile off.
Meh that is just Devs trying to push blame elswhere. The players NEVER asked for a feature length movies worth of cut scenes. I can go on, but no, that is just a dev being a little bitch. IF they said that at all.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Hmm, design-by-committee? Sure does sound tempting.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A good developer will listen to their customers.
A great developer will know the difference between something that will enhance their game design and something that will adversely affect it.
The main problem though is that, as others have mentioned, people are not happy to just accept a game may not be for them. I cannot think of a game I have followed in the last 10 years that didn't have some whinny PvP'er shouting loudly that the game needs PvP, will fail without PvP etc...The same happens (although not as much in my opinion) in PvP games with people shouting for PvP options or to remove FFA PvP.
People know what they want, they just sometimes are so selfishly self absorbed that they cannot step away from whay they want to see that the game is just not for them (I do make exceptions when you have games that are clearly PvE or PvP games and the developers try and get more customers by introducing something that really doesn't fit - most recent example for me is TESo where they have removed lots of freedom to have PvP when the game is more about freedom and exploration)
QFT.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
No. Because 90% of the requests are either plain stupid or technically not feasible. Also "listening" costs development time and re-planning your schedulde doesn´t happen on the fly.
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.
.
The Return of ELITE !
NO! That is exactly the problem!
Developers need to start to specialize and diversify the game universe not listen to everyone and make another mixture of all previously released games.
They need to focus on what was back in the day called a niche, because its NOT a niche anymore!
We have 400 million MMO players worldwide that spent a whopping $13 Billion in 2012. Now you tell me that this is not enough for a diverse and successful market.
Funny enough, None of the games released in recent years have survived or if still around had to go free 2 play.
Players would stick with games if they where original and had a lasting appeal. But they don't because they try to cater to everyone.
We have a combined purchasing power of $13 billion and yet we are unable to make these companies deliver good products.
It's time for change, think before you buy, stop believing the hype, vote with your wallet!
But I will grant you, the hypocrisy just dripping from this thread is pretty amazing.
(The same people often tending to make pronouncements regarding how mmo's can be "saved", yet here they are recognizing that placing too much weight on forum yackyack just might be a really poor developer plan...)
Aw dammit, missed the 5000th post "birthday"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No, it would never get made.
Which MMO are you talking about here. Cause if I pick WoW, it covers most of the stuff you have mentioned. See above. Also most of the things you have mentioned are already in MMOs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Nope, never. The community would not be 99% happyr because everyone has different views as to wha they think is 'perfect' for in game. Only the percentage of people that got what they wanted would be happy and that't wont be near 99%
This have been a good conversation
Generally speaking no, look at metrics, whats popular etc and work from that, however listening is a part of that which should never be ignored entirely.
Hell, look at DF:UW, if they had just listened to even 5 of the common suggestions made by fans, we wouldn't have the festering pile of shit that it currently is. A game which needed tweaking instead got the NGE treatment and it is woeful at best. DF:UW is a perfect example of when you ignore the community 100%.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.