Anyone with issues over waypoints needs to ask themselves one simple question...
If we had them in real life, would you use them?
Bet your left cheek I would.
yea or at least a tube system like futurama!
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Maybe it's not GW2's fault, maybe it's us, the players, who have matured and the sense of immersion and fascination we had with MMOs is harder to obtain with every new game that is released...
Thats what this whole discussion points to.
the whole "immersion breaking" argument from using optonal stuff is invalid.
If you are offered option A and B, A breakes youe immersion and B doesnt, but you costantly choose A and then proceed to whine about how "A is immersion breaking"....i mean it tells more about player than the game.
This argument that if quick travel breaks your immersion, don't use it is not entirely true. That would be a fair point if there were mounts in the game. But if I don't use quick travel my only option is to walk. In WoW I could get a mount which sped things up. But then again when people suggest that ArenaNet introduce mounts, people say what's the point? The question is why not? It will give people who don't want to use quick travel an alternative.
But but but....the longer it takes its more immersive! Why would you want to speed things up? By claims here you shouldnt even run but walk everywhere. Mounts break immersion! Running breakes immersion because its not realistic that you can run all the time! And then you need to rest, i mean walking across half the world and then just jump in in the battle? You need couple days rest at least! Want me to go further ;P
Oh, and BTW, most of games had some sort of quick travel, even those *gasp* often cited here, its not like WoW invented quick travel (or LOTRO or "insert MMO here") Just in LOTRO (for instance): hunter "taxi", captain summon, guardians acorn, swift horses, return to capital city, binding stones. At launch.
And WoW was one of the least immersive games i had tried. I couldnt even make it to max level how bad it was immersion wise. Static world, nothing ever changes, bad humor, fed-ex meaningless quests, gigantic shoulderpads...
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you are the one missing the point.
You rarely travel in GW2 because zones are packed with content, they are never useless.
I travel if: I want to play with a friend, i want to go do a dungeon, I'm working on my personal story., i want to go to the other side of the world.
By the way waypoints are asura magic constructs just like the asura gates.
I missed the fact that waypoints are a part of the asuran lore. But travel is actually up to playstyle. I 'waypoint' all the time as a convenience to go back and craft as I like to craft as I adventure. I'm saying it would be nice if I had a flying mount and could *enjoy* the travel back to where I was going. Instead of pressing a button and seeing a flash screen. Its minor but important to me.
We agreed that was not what ANet developed. I just disagree with it.
The world is great just wish there were more options to travel through it. It would have been cool to have a bunch of players on an Airship or other construct travelling together, taking in the sights.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
Really? Never knew that. I wonder... are they doing that in reaction to your presence or simply doing that in a loop whether or not players are present. There is a difference.
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
Really? Never knew that. I wonder... are they doing that in reaction to your presence or simply doing that in a loop whether or not players are present. There is a difference.
i think they did it whenever people were in proximity.. it was a nice feature and really enjoyed that in eq2 i remember.. glad gw2 has it much more widespread though
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The game has several of immersion-breakers. Instant travel and repeating quests every ten minutes with the same outcome are two that I find most noticeable.
Oh and, ignoring dead NPCs because if you res them they'll be dead again in a few minutes anyway. That one makes me laugh lol.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
I guess its the option of additional means of travel. Just having walking and waypoint are extremes. I say mounts because thats what Im used but in reality it could be anything that would speed it up. Some mechanism to let me move through the world at an elevated and greater pace than walking but less 'instant' than waypoint. Have you ever played EQ2 and got on a boat (with other characters mind you) and just sailed off. Watching to see the coast to appear in the horizon. Its a lot different than just 'porting' to the destination (lored based or not). Sometimes the journey *is* the destination.
Getting off topic from the OP in some ways, and want to re-iterate that GW2 does lack immersion (for some, not all or others) and could be alleviated by changing travel options (just one suggestion). But again, as I've said this isn't that type of game and thats what I have to concede to.
Though dated, check out Vanguard (or videos of it). If we remove the gear-grind argument for a moment it demonstrates how travel can aid in immersion of the world. Its not as pretty as GW2 but is a stark contrast. The former is a slower more involved MMO (encouraging immersion of you being the character) and the latter is a faster more 'instant action' (to me encourages me as a player playing a character). There is a difference between the two experiences though they sound similiar.
But they dont seem to (have interest to) make games like that anymore...
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
I guess its the option of additional means of travel. Just having walking and waypoint are extremes. I say mounts because thats what Im used but in reality it could be anything that would speed it up. Some mechanism to let me move through the world at an elevated and greater pace than walking but less 'instant' than waypoint. Have you ever played EQ2 and got on a boat (with other characters mind you) and just sailed off. Watching to see the coast to appear in the horizon. Its a lot different than just 'porting' to the destination (lored based or not). Sometimes the journey *is* the destination.
Getting off topic from the OP in some ways, and want to re-iterate that GW2 does lack immersion (for some, not all or others) and could be alleviated by changing travel options (just one suggestion). But again, as I've said this isn't that type of game and thats what I have to concede to.
Though dated, check out Vanguard (or videos of it). If we remove the gear-grind argument for a moment it demonstrates how travel can aid in immersion of the world. Its not as pretty as GW2 but is a stark contrast. The former is a slower more involved MMO (encouraging immersion of you being the character) and the latter is a faster more 'instant action' (to me encourages me as a player playing a character). There is a difference between the two experiences though they sound similiar.
But they dont seem to (have interest to) make games like that anymore...
really is all preference.. for me vanguard had vast landscapes which were nice and made the world feel huge but honestly there is a TON of empty and waisted space you just end up traveling over which doesn't really do much but make the world feel large.. But again it's all preference in what you see and what immersion is to the individual
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
I guess its the option of additional means of travel. Just having walking and waypoint are extremes. I say mounts because thats what Im used but in reality it could be anything that would speed it up. Some mechanism to let me move through the world at an elevated and greater pace than walking but less 'instant' than waypoint. Have you ever played EQ2 and got on a boat (with other characters mind you) and just sailed off. Watching to see the coast to appear in the horizon. Its a lot different than just 'porting' to the destination (lored based or not). Sometimes the journey *is* the destination.
Getting off topic from the OP in some ways, and want to re-iterate that GW2 does lack immersion (for some, not all or others) and could be alleviated by changing travel options (just one suggestion). But again, as I've said this isn't that type of game and thats what I have to concede to.
Though dated, check out Vanguard (or videos of it). If we remove the gear-grind argument for a moment it demonstrates how travel can aid in immersion of the world. Its not as pretty as GW2 but is a stark contrast. The former is a slower more involved MMO (encouraging immersion of you being the character) and the latter is a faster more 'instant action' (to me encourages me as a player playing a character). There is a difference between the two experiences though they sound similiar.
But they dont seem to (have interest to) make games like that anymore...
really is all preference.. for me vanguard had vast landscapes which were nice and made the world feel huge but honestly there is a TON of empty and waisted space you just end up traveling over which doesn't really do much but make the world feel large.. But again it's all preference in what you see and what immersion is to the individual
I will agree with you there.
I want a mix of I guess some of the mechanics from Vanguard with the (beautiful) world of Tyria. That would make a very rich experience for me.
The game is still young and it costs me nothing to check in form time to time. I will eventually get my human warrior to 80 at some point.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
Really? Never knew that. I wonder... are they doing that in reaction to your presence or simply doing that in a loop whether or not players are present. There is a difference.
Remeber this is from 2004 when EQ2 had no markers (quils in this case) above npc's heads. So when you went near certain NPC's they would call out to you saying they wanted to talk with you or they would wave their hands gesticualting for you to come over, you just had to set the animation of by being near to them or walking past them, it wasn't a set routine that cycled. Since SOE put quest markers in and redesigned many areas of the game ie Freeport and the starter zones those occasions are quait rare these days. So its not a new concept far from it, OH! and EQ2 has Heritage quests that take you all over a zone in one big quest chain that ends in a big battle, they are group only and intergral to telling a story of the lore of that zone, sound familiar?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
I guess its the option of additional means of travel. Just having walking and waypoint are extremes. I say mounts because thats what Im used but in reality it could be anything that would speed it up. Some mechanism to let me move through the world at an elevated and greater pace than walking but less 'instant' than waypoint. Have you ever played EQ2 and got on a boat (with other characters mind you) and just sailed off. Watching to see the coast to appear in the horizon. Its a lot different than just 'porting' to the destination (lored based or not). Sometimes the journey *is* the destination.
Getting off topic from the OP in some ways, and want to re-iterate that GW2 does lack immersion (for some, not all or others) and could be alleviated by changing travel options (just one suggestion). But again, as I've said this isn't that type of game and thats what I have to concede to.
Though dated, check out Vanguard (or videos of it). If we remove the gear-grind argument for a moment it demonstrates how travel can aid in immersion of the world. Its not as pretty as GW2 but is a stark contrast. The former is a slower more involved MMO (encouraging immersion of you being the character) and the latter is a faster more 'instant action' (to me encourages me as a player playing a character). There is a difference between the two experiences though they sound similiar.
But they dont seem to (have interest to) make games like that anymore...
really is all preference.. for me vanguard had vast landscapes which were nice and made the world feel huge but honestly there is a TON of empty and waisted space you just end up traveling over which doesn't really do much but make the world feel large.. But again it's all preference in what you see and what immersion is to the individual
Two reasons for this.
1: The game was not finished at launch and many areas were left empty and half a continent, Kojan, did not make it into the game.
2: Vanguard was designed with there being no expac's sold after release, they would just fill up the quiet areas and change areas over time and you'd get that for your monthly sub. So there were empty dungeons and such, the world would change and grow organically over time, sound familiar?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
Really? Never knew that. I wonder... are they doing that in reaction to your presence or simply doing that in a loop whether or not players are present. There is a difference.
Remeber this is from 2004 when EQ2 had no markers (quils in this case) above npc's heads. So when you went near certain NPC's they would call out to you saying they wanted to talk with you or they would wave their hands gesticualting for you to come over, you just had to set the animation of by being near to them or walking past them, it wasn't a set routine that cycled. Since SOE put quest markers in and redesigned many areas of the game ie Freeport and the starter zones those occasions are quait rare these days. So its not a new concept far from it, OH! and EQ2 has Heritage quests that take you all over a zone in one big quest chain that ends in a big battle, they are group only and intergral to telling a story of the lore of that zone, sound familiar?
Lets not start on the feature checklist path.
Sure many of the features of GW2 have been seen in other games.
But we don't play fractioned features, we play games with their features and systems.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Thanks for clearing that up. I was unaware that waypoints were part of the lore. That makes sense. I never said the game had a problem and I actually called it a feature and said it was pre-designed to be that way by the developers.
Though my original argument fell apart :-) It still doesnt remove my original premise that I dont feel GW2 is immersive (enough) for me to engage in the game fulltime. It still feels like an arcade.
This is not to take away the joy countless others are having. I hope it continues for them. I will continue to see how this living story plays and if it introduces the 'touches' I am looking for (but seem to have a hard time explaining).
No problem, its not much of an explanation, but its there ;P
I just wonder at people that keep pushing buttons that break their immersion and then complain about it ;P Stop pushing them buttons if they irritate you so much, there, problem solved lol
I guess its the option of additional means of travel. Just having walking and waypoint are extremes. I say mounts because thats what Im used but in reality it could be anything that would speed it up. Some mechanism to let me move through the world at an elevated and greater pace than walking but less 'instant' than waypoint. Have you ever played EQ2 and got on a boat (with other characters mind you) and just sailed off. Watching to see the coast to appear in the horizon. Its a lot different than just 'porting' to the destination (lored based or not). Sometimes the journey *is* the destination.
Getting off topic from the OP in some ways, and want to re-iterate that GW2 does lack immersion (for some, not all or others) and could be alleviated by changing travel options (just one suggestion). But again, as I've said this isn't that type of game and thats what I have to concede to.
Though dated, check out Vanguard (or videos of it). If we remove the gear-grind argument for a moment it demonstrates how travel can aid in immersion of the world. Its not as pretty as GW2 but is a stark contrast. The former is a slower more involved MMO (encouraging immersion of you being the character) and the latter is a faster more 'instant action' (to me encourages me as a player playing a character). There is a difference between the two experiences though they sound similiar.
But they dont seem to (have interest to) make games like that anymore...
Again - mounts are not in the Tyria lore but waypoints and Asuran gates are. If they would add mounts to the game, it would be immersive-breaking when you understand the lore of the game.
Your completely missing the point. Length of time <> immersion, but travel is a big part. There is no travel in GW2. You either walk (which gets old fast) or you waypoint. There are no vehicles. No airships. No mounts. No nothing. Part of what works in WoW and EQ is if I have to go a far distance I can still enjoy the landscape just at a faster speed which is more realistic. I would love to be able to fly through Tyria but I can't at the moment.
Portals also work but its the implementation. Portals in WoW and EQ are part of the game and lore. EQ had Plane of Knowledge. Does exactly the same as waypoints but its part of the game making it feel more like your character is travelling via magic means versus me as a player. In GW2 I click an object on my map which ports my character... thats a player mechanic and does nothing to tie to the players' action to what the character is doing (other than appearing in a new location).
I dont see this as a 'bug' or problem with GW2 but more as a feature. GW2 is more geared toward an 'arcade' RPG experience as opposed to a fully immersive 'lived-in world' These decisions were pre-made and we cant honestly fault them for that.
I'm still interested where they go with this 'living story' (which btw I think is a great concept) but think they will take it far enough for me personally to enjoy it.
I think you're missing the point actually. GW1 introduced "map travel" as a part of the lore of the game. There's even a quest you get from the son of the women (he claims) who invented it. To remove map travel and Asura Gates (also featured in Eye of the North) would be to break immersion for the GW vets by stepping all over the lore of the game.
The real immersion is in the world itself. What other do the NPCs run over to you asking for help? What other games does the PvE content come to you whether you're ready for it or not?
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
Really? Never knew that. I wonder... are they doing that in reaction to your presence or simply doing that in a loop whether or not players are present. There is a difference.
Remeber this is from 2004 when EQ2 had no markers (quils in this case) above npc's heads. So when you went near certain NPC's they would call out to you saying they wanted to talk with you or they would wave their hands gesticualting for you to come over, you just had to set the animation of by being near to them or walking past them, it wasn't a set routine that cycled. Since SOE put quest markers in and redesigned many areas of the game ie Freeport and the starter zones those occasions are quait rare these days. So its not a new concept far from it, OH! and EQ2 has Heritage quests that take you all over a zone in one big quest chain that ends in a big battle, they are group only and intergral to telling a story of the lore of that zone, sound familiar?
Lets not start on the feature checklist path.
Sure many of the features of GW2 have been seen in other games.
But we don't play fractioned features, we play games with their features and systems.
Come on don't get all tied up in knots someone might think you are a fanboy or some such silly notion. I'm just teasing the serious folks around here I like the game. I'll use one of these next time, though I was answering Volkon's question.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Please elaborate. Or was it just an attempted insult?
Fallen Earth is another game that's high up on my top-list.
Didnt Fallen Earth made quick travel possible because of the pressure of playerbase as it had absolutely none at launch? Yest it did. I rest my case.
What case? Exactly what are you even talking about. Do you know? In which of my paragraphs regarding Guild Wars 2's specific travelling system did you read something that gave you a case in the first place? By the looks of it i seem to have written an article in New York Times about my disgust for any travel system ever created bar walking bare-foot. I don't remember doing that. How did that become your, and the guy's before you, standpoint in this very specific topic?
I've found this as well... but for me it's not the world (one of the best IMO), but rather the character customisation, or lack there of. Now I know there is a fair choice of gear, traits, runes, etc. but I'm level 42 now and have been casting the same spells since level 5 with little to no noticable difference in the way fights play out.
Sure there are moments here or there where a proc goes off (and I notice it), but compared pretty much any other MMO (Rift, TSW, GW1, WoW (pre panda), even Aion) my character just feels static, there is no growth, there is no "man I can't wait to hit level X'. I'm aware that I could try using different weapons, or support skills, but honestly the load out I've got now is best I've found (out of all class / weapon combos) to fit my playstyle.
Don't get me wrong, I like GW2, it's fun and the dynamic events are big step up for the usual 'quest hub' style, but in terms of character customisation and growth, I'm sorry but their system is a total failure.
guess it depends how you play.. if you stick to the same weapons then sure of course.. but if yuo playl ike me and swap weapon sets every couple levels along with completely changing out your traits and gear at that time as well it changes how your character can play completely.. yes you will be pushing buttons and watch things die as in every game out there.. but how you do it you actually have a ton of variety especially once you get more traits unlocked.. I gave examples in other threads but I have changed my mesmer playstyle every 10 or so levels and made a totally differn't playstyle from direct damage focus to conditions with numerous ways to use my illusions with numerous skills that have several effects and sometimes even more when traited.. I at first thought the system was pretty shallow until I got more into it and started changing up my playstyle with differn't sets of weapons based on a certain style of play...
honestly i have more styles of "play" in this game than most any other MMO where you have the option of 100s of skills but basically they all play out the exact same
I don't disagree, there are certainly a range of playstyles you can have for any given character, and changing between them can be as simple as swapping out your weapon... but that's not really what I'm looking for.
I like to take a general idea for a playstyle, or character, and tweak it over time (and levels) to get something that is fun and enjoyable for me, even if it's not 'optimal'... in fact I generally prefer 'left field' builds. GW2 doesn't really let you do that; you're stuck with whatever skills come with the weapon, and if don't like them, or their 'theme' (e.g. bleeds, buff/debuff, flanking) too bad.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, in GW2, it doesn't feel I'm creating MY character... it's more like I'm picking equipment sets in an FPS... and that just doesn't sit well with me in a game where everything else is set up like an RPG.
I've found this as well... but for me it's not the world (one of the best IMO), but rather the character customisation, or lack there of. Now I know there is a fair choice of gear, traits, runes, etc. but I'm level 42 now and have been casting the same spells since level 5 with little to no noticable difference in the way fights play out.
Sure there are moments here or there where a proc goes off (and I notice it), but compared pretty much any other MMO (Rift, TSW, GW1, WoW (pre panda), even Aion) my character just feels static, there is no growth, there is no "man I can't wait to hit level X'. I'm aware that I could try using different weapons, or support skills, but honestly the load out I've got now is best I've found (out of all class / weapon combos) to fit my playstyle.
Don't get me wrong, I like GW2, it's fun and the dynamic events are big step up for the usual 'quest hub' style, but in terms of character customisation and growth, I'm sorry but their system is a total failure.
guess it depends how you play.. if you stick to the same weapons then sure of course.. but if yuo playl ike me and swap weapon sets every couple levels along with completely changing out your traits and gear at that time as well it changes how your character can play completely.. yes you will be pushing buttons and watch things die as in every game out there.. but how you do it you actually have a ton of variety especially once you get more traits unlocked.. I gave examples in other threads but I have changed my mesmer playstyle every 10 or so levels and made a totally differn't playstyle from direct damage focus to conditions with numerous ways to use my illusions with numerous skills that have several effects and sometimes even more when traited.. I at first thought the system was pretty shallow until I got more into it and started changing up my playstyle with differn't sets of weapons based on a certain style of play...
honestly i have more styles of "play" in this game than most any other MMO where you have the option of 100s of skills but basically they all play out the exact same
I don't disagree, there are certainly a range of playstyles you can have for any given character, and changing between them can be as simple as swapping out your weapon... but that's not really what I'm looking for.
I like to take a general idea for a playstyle, or character, and tweak it over time (and levels) to get something that is fun and enjoyable for me, even if it's not 'optimal'... in fact I generally prefer 'left field' builds. GW2 doesn't really let you do that; you're stuck with whatever skills come with the weapon, and if don't like them, or their 'theme' (e.g. bleeds, buff/debuff, flanking) too bad.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, in GW2, it doesn't feel I'm creating MY character... it's more like I'm picking equipment sets in an FPS... and that just doesn't sit well with me in a game where everything else is set up like an RPG.
i can see that.. my main gripe with the current system is id like advanced skills for weapons and make the weapon bar like the utility bar where you can mix and match skills../ this would add a lot of variety to it.. My issue with games that offer tons of skills is generally many end up being very one dimensional skills and on the graphical side end up looking very underwhelming. Not to mention pvp ends up being a balance nightmare. But i do enjoy games where i can make my own class essentially which in a way seems teso might be doing this to an extent. But for me i'd rather have numerous playstyles and a few less skill options than a million skills but basically only one or two playstyles on that character...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I've found this as well... but for me it's not the world (one of the best IMO), but rather the character customisation, or lack there of. Now I know there is a fair choice of gear, traits, runes, etc. but I'm level 42 now and have been casting the same spells since level 5 with little to no noticable difference in the way fights play out.
Sure there are moments here or there where a proc goes off (and I notice it), but compared pretty much any other MMO (Rift, TSW, GW1, WoW (pre panda), even Aion) my character just feels static, there is no growth, there is no "man I can't wait to hit level X'. I'm aware that I could try using different weapons, or support skills, but honestly the load out I've got now is best I've found (out of all class / weapon combos) to fit my playstyle.
Don't get me wrong, I like GW2, it's fun and the dynamic events are big step up for the usual 'quest hub' style, but in terms of character customisation and growth, I'm sorry but their system is a total failure.
guess it depends how you play.. if you stick to the same weapons then sure of course.. but if yuo playl ike me and swap weapon sets every couple levels along with completely changing out your traits and gear at that time as well it changes how your character can play completely.. yes you will be pushing buttons and watch things die as in every game out there.. but how you do it you actually have a ton of variety especially once you get more traits unlocked.. I gave examples in other threads but I have changed my mesmer playstyle every 10 or so levels and made a totally differn't playstyle from direct damage focus to conditions with numerous ways to use my illusions with numerous skills that have several effects and sometimes even more when traited.. I at first thought the system was pretty shallow until I got more into it and started changing up my playstyle with differn't sets of weapons based on a certain style of play...
honestly i have more styles of "play" in this game than most any other MMO where you have the option of 100s of skills but basically they all play out the exact same
I don't disagree, there are certainly a range of playstyles you can have for any given character, and changing between them can be as simple as swapping out your weapon... but that's not really what I'm looking for.
I like to take a general idea for a playstyle, or character, and tweak it over time (and levels) to get something that is fun and enjoyable for me, even if it's not 'optimal'... in fact I generally prefer 'left field' builds. GW2 doesn't really let you do that; you're stuck with whatever skills come with the weapon, and if don't like them, or their 'theme' (e.g. bleeds, buff/debuff, flanking) too bad.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, in GW2, it doesn't feel I'm creating MY character... it's more like I'm picking equipment sets in an FPS... and that just doesn't sit well with me in a game where everything else is set up like an RPG.
Most of the games give you all the skills that fullfil a narrow role.
Some games like GW1 and TSW give loads of skills but you can only pick so few.
The problem with GW1 and TSW system is that lot of skills won't be balanced, meaning a few will be more efficient than all the others.
If you theorycraft and read you will arrive to an optimal or near optimal build. That will be a fun process initialy but once you understand it, basically it is picking the few pearls out of junk and there will be a big pile of junk.
The second problem is that you will have players that don't research because they don't want or don't care or whatever and will be stuck with awfull and bad builds, that hurt those players and the overall population.
Still, you still have in GW2 traits, stats, weapon upgrades and armor upgrades, utility skills and food/utility buffs that can make 2 characters using the same weapons very different.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
just gotta remember like graphics immersion is a subjective thing.. one game may have a feature that kills immersion for them while others can overlook it and get engrossed in the rest of the game.. no one can say what is immersion for you personally all they can say is what in any said game makes them feel immersed.. hope some of the responses helped
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Comments
Anyone with issues over waypoints needs to ask themselves one simple question...
If we had them in real life, would you use them?
Bet your left cheek I would.
Oderint, dum metuant.
yea or at least a tube system like futurama!
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
We do have lodsing screens in RL - airplanes, trains, cars, etc can all be considered loading screens.
I missed the fact that waypoints are a part of the asuran lore. But travel is actually up to playstyle. I 'waypoint' all the time as a convenience to go back and craft as I like to craft as I adventure. I'm saying it would be nice if I had a flying mount and could *enjoy* the travel back to where I was going. Instead of pressing a button and seeing a flash screen. Its minor but important to me.
We agreed that was not what ANet developed. I just disagree with it.
The world is great just wish there were more options to travel through it. It would have been cool to have a bunch of players on an Airship or other construct travelling together, taking in the sights.
EQ2 has npc's calling out to you or gesticulating to grab you attention is not a new concept they were in EQ2 at launch.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Really? Never knew that. I wonder... are they doing that in reaction to your presence or simply doing that in a loop whether or not players are present. There is a difference.
Oderint, dum metuant.
i think they did it whenever people were in proximity.. it was a nice feature and really enjoyed that in eq2 i remember.. glad gw2 has it much more widespread though
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The game has several of immersion-breakers. Instant travel and repeating quests every ten minutes with the same outcome are two that I find most noticeable.
Oh and, ignoring dead NPCs because if you res them they'll be dead again in a few minutes anyway. That one makes me laugh lol.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I guess its the option of additional means of travel. Just having walking and waypoint are extremes. I say mounts because thats what Im used but in reality it could be anything that would speed it up. Some mechanism to let me move through the world at an elevated and greater pace than walking but less 'instant' than waypoint. Have you ever played EQ2 and got on a boat (with other characters mind you) and just sailed off. Watching to see the coast to appear in the horizon. Its a lot different than just 'porting' to the destination (lored based or not). Sometimes the journey *is* the destination.
Getting off topic from the OP in some ways, and want to re-iterate that GW2 does lack immersion (for some, not all or others) and could be alleviated by changing travel options (just one suggestion). But again, as I've said this isn't that type of game and thats what I have to concede to.
Though dated, check out Vanguard (or videos of it). If we remove the gear-grind argument for a moment it demonstrates how travel can aid in immersion of the world. Its not as pretty as GW2 but is a stark contrast. The former is a slower more involved MMO (encouraging immersion of you being the character) and the latter is a faster more 'instant action' (to me encourages me as a player playing a character). There is a difference between the two experiences though they sound similiar.
But they dont seem to (have interest to) make games like that anymore...
really is all preference.. for me vanguard had vast landscapes which were nice and made the world feel huge but honestly there is a TON of empty and waisted space you just end up traveling over which doesn't really do much but make the world feel large.. But again it's all preference in what you see and what immersion is to the individual
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I will agree with you there.
I want a mix of I guess some of the mechanics from Vanguard with the (beautiful) world of Tyria. That would make a very rich experience for me.
The game is still young and it costs me nothing to check in form time to time. I will eventually get my human warrior to 80 at some point.
Remeber this is from 2004 when EQ2 had no markers (quils in this case) above npc's heads. So when you went near certain NPC's they would call out to you saying they wanted to talk with you or they would wave their hands gesticualting for you to come over, you just had to set the animation of by being near to them or walking past them, it wasn't a set routine that cycled. Since SOE put quest markers in and redesigned many areas of the game ie Freeport and the starter zones those occasions are quait rare these days. So its not a new concept far from it, OH! and EQ2 has Heritage quests that take you all over a zone in one big quest chain that ends in a big battle, they are group only and intergral to telling a story of the lore of that zone, sound familiar?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Two reasons for this.
1: The game was not finished at launch and many areas were left empty and half a continent, Kojan, did not make it into the game.
2: Vanguard was designed with there being no expac's sold after release, they would just fill up the quiet areas and change areas over time and you'd get that for your monthly sub. So there were empty dungeons and such, the world would change and grow organically over time, sound familiar?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Lets not start on the feature checklist path.
Sure many of the features of GW2 have been seen in other games.
But we don't play fractioned features, we play games with their features and systems.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
GW2 is "cartoony"? Seriously? You're just hating on it because you lack any meaningful objectivity to back up your claims.
Oh, and let's not forget your "Best MMOs played" list in your signature, and you dare to call GW2 "cartoony" and unrealistic. lol.
Again - mounts are not in the Tyria lore but waypoints and Asuran gates are. If they would add mounts to the game, it would be immersive-breaking when you understand the lore of the game.
Claustrophobic for sure. They need to install MRIs in Tyria. It wouldn't be lore shattering at all having them around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claustrophobia
What is that bear doing? I mean cmon!
Come on don't get all tied up in knots someone might think you are a fanboy or some such silly notion. I'm just teasing the serious folks around here I like the game. I'll use one of these
next time, though I was answering Volkon's question.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
What case? Exactly what are you even talking about. Do you know? In which of my paragraphs regarding Guild Wars 2's specific travelling system did you read something that gave you a case in the first place? By the looks of it i seem to have written an article in New York Times about my disgust for any travel system ever created bar walking bare-foot. I don't remember doing that. How did that become your, and the guy's before you, standpoint in this very specific topic?
Honestly, i'm trying to understand.
I don't disagree, there are certainly a range of playstyles you can have for any given character, and changing between them can be as simple as swapping out your weapon... but that's not really what I'm looking for.
I like to take a general idea for a playstyle, or character, and tweak it over time (and levels) to get something that is fun and enjoyable for me, even if it's not 'optimal'... in fact I generally prefer 'left field' builds. GW2 doesn't really let you do that; you're stuck with whatever skills come with the weapon, and if don't like them, or their 'theme' (e.g. bleeds, buff/debuff, flanking) too bad.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, in GW2, it doesn't feel I'm creating MY character... it's more like I'm picking equipment sets in an FPS... and that just doesn't sit well with me in a game where everything else is set up like an RPG.
i can see that.. my main gripe with the current system is id like advanced skills for weapons and make the weapon bar like the utility bar where you can mix and match skills../ this would add a lot of variety to it.. My issue with games that offer tons of skills is generally many end up being very one dimensional skills and on the graphical side end up looking very underwhelming. Not to mention pvp ends up being a balance nightmare. But i do enjoy games where i can make my own class essentially which in a way seems teso might be doing this to an extent. But for me i'd rather have numerous playstyles and a few less skill options than a million skills but basically only one or two playstyles on that character...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Most of the games give you all the skills that fullfil a narrow role.
Some games like GW1 and TSW give loads of skills but you can only pick so few.
The problem with GW1 and TSW system is that lot of skills won't be balanced, meaning a few will be more efficient than all the others.
If you theorycraft and read you will arrive to an optimal or near optimal build. That will be a fun process initialy but once you understand it, basically it is picking the few pearls out of junk and there will be a big pile of junk.
The second problem is that you will have players that don't research because they don't want or don't care or whatever and will be stuck with awfull and bad builds, that hurt those players and the overall population.
Still, you still have in GW2 traits, stats, weapon upgrades and armor upgrades, utility skills and food/utility buffs that can make 2 characters using the same weapons very different.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I'm impressed by the volume of response.
not sure what to make of it all, but impressed
just gotta remember like graphics immersion is a subjective thing.. one game may have a feature that kills immersion for them while others can overlook it and get engrossed in the rest of the game.. no one can say what is immersion for you personally all they can say is what in any said game makes them feel immersed.. hope some of the responses helped
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg