But do LFG system really ruin the community in a MMO game?
It depends.. as always. Look, DAoC got a LFG system, and it got a very good community. So no LFG systems dont ruin the community. On the other hand, if everything get handed to you from a LFG system and you will also immediatly portet there, no communication whatsoever needed, it very much does ruin community. Because community comes from communication, and if you remove all incentives to communicate it does of course ruin communities.
The solution is to keep impatient, antisocial speedrunners as far away as possible from the casual, friendly social people in the game. It's really simple: these groups don't like each other and don't want to play with each other. What do people in real life do? Go play with people of similar interests; the "community" is formed of people who gravitate toward their own tribe.
Simple solution on the group selector for style preference:
Expert
Speed
Casual/social
Beginner
Experimental/Practice
RP
Congregation leads to segregration which leads to isolation and alienation. It's practical and does help remedy the situation for a short period of time. Being anti-social doesn't mean one isn't capable of speaking, it just someone who goes against what the "norm" has been socialised to accept as proper behavior to not disturb the tribe as a whole, so the comfort level and complacency is kept in check.
I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap. Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...
A lot of the hype of social disorders been portrayed in the media and the awareness about it these days show lack of empathy with those who carry sorrow with them because, the societal game that people have choosen is.. tiresome.
Whatever, can I quote Bill Hicks? Yes I can. I'm sure have already heard this before, yet I always find it refreshing.
"The world is like a ride at an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it, you think it's real, because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round and it has thrills and chills and it's very brightly colored and it's very loud. And it's fun, for a while.
Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: 'Is this real? Or is this just a ride?' And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and they say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid -- ever -- because... this is just a ride.' And we kill those people.
'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride! Shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry; look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that -- ever notice that? -- and we let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because... it's just a ride, and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort. No worry. No job. No savings and money. Just a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy bigger guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one.
Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, into a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year and, instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would do many times over -- not one human being excluded -- and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever. In peace." ~ Bill Hicks
The solution is to keep impatient, antisocial speedrunners as far away as possible from the casual, friendly social people in the game. It's really simple: these groups don't like each other and don't want to play with each other. What do people in real life do? Go play with people of similar interests; the "community" is formed of people who gravitate toward their own tribe.
Simple solution on the group selector for style preference:
Expert
Speed
Casual/social
Beginner
Experimental/Practice
RP
Congregation leads to segregration which leads to isolation and alienation. It's practical and does help remedy the situation for a short period of time. Being anti-social doesn't mean one isn't capable of speaking, it just someone who goes against what the "norm" has been socialised to accept as proper behavior to not disturb the tribe as a whole, so the comfort level and complacency is kept in check.
I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap. Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...
A lot of the hype of social disorders been portrayed in the media and the awareness about it these days show lack of empathy with those who carry sorrow with them because, the societal game that people have choosen is.. tiresome.
Whatever, can I quote Bill Hicks? Yes I can. I'm sure have already heard this before, yet I always find it refreshing.
"The world is like a ride at an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it, you think it's real, because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round and it has thrills and chills and it's very brightly colored and it's very loud. And it's fun, for a while.
Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: 'Is this real? Or is this just a ride?' And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and they say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid -- ever -- because... this is just a ride.' And we kill those people.
'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride! Shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry; look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that -- ever notice that? -- and we let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because... it's just a ride, and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort. No worry. No job. No savings and money. Just a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy bigger guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one.
Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, into a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year and, instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would do many times over -- not one human being excluded -- and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever. In peace." ~ Bill Hicks
So make the selections checkboxes rather than radio buttons.
I see what you are saying and I agree, And maybe at some point a person who is "casual" wants to do a speedrun because they are limited for time. And someone who has been speedrunning wants to slow down and smell the roses. There's always room to change your mode.
The solution is to keep impatient, antisocial speedrunners as far away as possible from the casual, friendly social people in the game. It's really simple: these groups don't like each other and don't want to play with each other. What do people in real life do? Go play with people of similar interests; the "community" is formed of people who gravitate toward their own tribe.
Simple solution on the group selector for style preference:
Expert
Speed
Casual/social
Beginner
Experimental/Practice
RP
I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap. Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...
Oh, and if my response was a little terse it was due to this statement:
You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.
The speedrunners look at social gamers as inconsiderate and wasting their time, while the social gamers look at the speedrunners as impatient and antisocial. It's tough to foster any kind of empathy when no communication is taking place, hence my distaste for autogrouping tools: they foster lack of communication and lack of empathy. But if they are to exist, at least give people the option to the experience they prefer. But, no, they are still no substitute for actual talking (which the speedrunners don't want to do.)
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap. Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...
Oh, and if my response was a little terse it was due to this statement:
You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.
The speedrunners look at social gamers as inconsiderate and wasting their time, while the social gamers look at the speedrunners as impatient and antisocial. It's tough to foster any kind of empathy when no communication is taking place, hence my distaste for autogrouping tools: they foster lack of communication and lack of empathy. But if they are to exist, at least give people the option to the experience they prefer. But, no, they are still no substitute for actual talking (which the speedrunners don't want to do.)
Am I a speed runner because I don't want to talk to you? I want to get in, get the job done, and leave. Is that such a bad thing? I am not giving you any grief. I just expect the same thing from you. Come prepared, know what you are doing and if you don't at least tell people that so we can tell you what bosses have what mechanics. Lets work as a team to accomplish the goal that we are all here to accomplish. If you don't have time to do that simply don't use a LFG tool.
I did not use the LFG tool for a raid or dungeon just so I could hold a conversation with you. I have never seen the "form a group to have a discussion option" in any LFG tool. You went in to the dungeon for a reason and if that reason was to have a conversation you are playing the wrong game. I don't think Facebook has a LFG tool.
Speed Runner seems to conjure up images of people being assh*les and thats not always true. I will help you. If you have not been in this dungeon or raid I will never give you a hard time. I won't vote to kick you if you wipe us by accident. I just don't want to know anything else about you. I don't care if you have kids, a wife, or a gold fish. I have no desire to know you past this dungeon. Why is that such a bad thing? Why can't we just play out this dungeon and go our own way?
LFG systems could be improved by requiring a personality profile to be completed first.
You could put all the people whose gameplay is just one of the 5 things they're doing simultaneously together and let them fill their boots with frequent AFKs
Put all the rage quitters together and don't let them leave until they learn to get along
Put all the loot Ninjas together and give them a special crappy loot table made just for them
Put all the people who think they know how to play the other guy's class better together and give them the ability to swap classes.
Just some ideas...
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
You play games for other reasons than those folks do. Your way is not better, just different.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
It's a hub where trading and grouping happens, people buffed and helped new players there too. No automated trading in games back then. That's another thing that created socialising, people traded goods and talked to each other, now you just buy from some billboard.
The game never told people that they should congregate there, it just happened.
The fact people are sitting there is not because they are waiting, they are simply playing the game by relaxing and talking to each other, getting to max level took ages, people weren't in a rush, the community came before stats for most people.
LFG systems could be improved by requiring a personality profile to be completed first.
You could put all the people whose gameplay is just one of the 5 things they're doing simultaneously together and let them fill their boots with frequent AFKs
Put all the rage quitters together and don't let them leave until they learn to get along
Put all the loot Ninjas together and give them a special crappy loot table made just for them
Put all the people who think they know how to play the other guy's class better together and give them the ability to swap classes.
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
It's a hub where trading and grouping happens. No automated trading in games back then. That's another thing that created socialising, people traded goods and talked to each other, now you just buy from some billboard.
The game never told people that they should congregate there, it just happened.
I believe that is the EC tunnel to the Desert of Ro...where yes...it was a busy travel route players used as another trade hub. It was popular...obviously.
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
It's a hub where trading and grouping happens. No automated trading in games back then. That's another thing that created socialising, people traded goods and talked to each other, now you just buy from some billboard.
The game never told people that they should congregate there, it just happened.
I believe that is the EC tunnel to the Desert of Ro...where yes...it was a busy travel route players used as another trade hub. It was popular...obviously.
nod, it's the EC tunnel, viewed from the direction towards the ldon camp
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
It's a hub where trading and grouping happens. No automated trading in games back then. That's another thing that created socialising, people traded goods and talked to each other, now you just buy from some billboard.
The game never told people that they should congregate there, it just happened.
I believe that is the EC tunnel to the Desert of Ro...where yes...it was a busy travel route players used as another trade hub. It was popular...obviously.
nod, it's the EC tunnel, viewed from the direction towards the ldon camp
YEp...I was just a bit late posting before you lol. The other thing is it shows you how special these games were to those of us who played them. Even after 14 years...I can still see a pic and tell you where it is, what zone it is, and what zones branch off of it in most cases.
I can rarely name a particular area in most MMORPG's since 2004, as they didn't impact me the same way. nd no...it isn't the nostalgia thing...but EQ I felt I was in a world and I WAS the character and I determined my path and my reputation based on my actions. Not just an avatar following a set path towards "end game" and I can act like a jerk because I can buy a server switch or name change because being social means little.
YEp...I was just a bit late posting before you lol. The other thing is it shows you how special these games were to those of us who played them. Even after 14 years...I can still see a pic and tell you where it is, what zone it is, and what zones branch off of it in most cases.
I can rarely name a particular area in most MMORPG's since 2004, as they didn't impact me the same way. nd no...it isn't the nostalgia thing...but EQ I felt I was in a world and I WAS the character and I determined my path and my reputation based on my actions. Not just an avatar following a set path towards "end game" and I can act like a jerk because I can buy a server switch or name change because being social means little.
yeah, people remember everything, every player I talk to remembers it all
You play games for other reasons than those folks do. Your way is not better, just different.
I never said my way was better. I have no desire to change the way those people play their game. The problem is that anyone who does not want to pay to sit in a chatroom has to constantly defend their position. There is an elitism on these forums that if you don't agree with the snail crawl game design of yesterday that you are the problem with the industry.
Maybe those people are upset because the game design they like is dead. They would like to see one of these relics released with modern graphics. It just not going to happen though. There is no money in it. So we have to blame something. The LFG tool, the modern community, the casual player, WoW...something. It can't be that they are a niche group the like to play what the majority of gamers view as boring. It can't be that. We must all be anti-social ass h*les that hate the world and just want to be "uber leet". We all have to be 14 year old BNET kiddies that never played a "real" game.
How can it be if the modern game design and LFG tool have destroyed the social aspect of games that people are still having great social experiences? How can people still be meeting their guild members in person? How can it be that people still find RL romance in these games? How can people be forging friendships that last for years? Why is it so unfathomable that maybe it is not the LFG tool or any other part of the design of modern games? Maybe it is the player. Maybe those people that are forced to be social by outdated and boring game design need that in order to be social. Maybe its not the modern player that has the problem.
Groups went from playing with each other for hours and talking to each other non-stop to groups with dreadful experiences.
The first time I played Vindictus I said "hi all, how are you guys doing?" and the reply was "you ready or not, click your damn ready button or get kick"
In Everquest it could take 10 minutes for someone to zone into COM because it was a slow zone from Emerald Jungel. In a game like Vindictus people who take longer than 10 seconds get kicked out of their group and are blasted with profanity for holding up others.
That's a great social experience?
Most people I meet in new MMO want to rush everything, they no longer have the time to relax, they want everything here and now and don't want to enjoy the experience, they are driven by loot and progress, incapable of enjoying the here and now.
And this transcends MMO, people want to be entertained and do everything, and cram as much instant gratification as possible into as little time as possible. People are nervous and on edge, they don't relax anymore, are highly stressed and can not stand still for a minute and reflect or just do things at a slow pace, it has to be here and now, no time to do things right or slow, rush rush rush.
Groups went from playing with each other for hours and talking to each other non-stop to groups with dreadful experiences.
The first time I played Vindictus I said "hi all, how are you guys doing?" and the reply was "you ready or not, click your damn ready button or get kick"
That's a great social experience?
Most people I meet in new MMO want to rush everything, they no longer have the time to relax, they want everything here and now and don't want to enjoy the experience, they are driven by loot and progress, incapable of enjoying the here and now.
I love how you quote one piece of one sentence in my post. That is truly awesome. You ignore all of the other things I say and just quote that..lol..but its the new generation of gamers that can not communicate.
I quoted it because I understand that to be your premise you base your argument on. Your premise is that nothing is wrong in current MMO because people still marry in MMO, people still get together in MMO, people still socialise in MMO, that the LFG tool did not destroy the community. I don't agree with that, the social experience is much worse than it used to be.
I quoted it because I understand that to be your premise you base your argument on. Your premise is that nothing is wrong in current MMO because people still marry in MMO, people still get together in MMO, people still socialise in MMO, that the LFG tool did not destroy the community. I don't agree with that, the social experience is much worse than it used to be.
No..its worse for you. You have had bad experiences. Not everyone has had the same experience as you and not everyone would react like you do. For me the community isn't as important as it is to you. I don't need a loving, caring experience every time I enter a dungeon. I don't want a MMO to replace my social life. I just want to play a game with my friends and family. Like I said before it's not the LFG or modern game design that is the problem. It is the player.
No..its worse for you. You have had bad experiences. Not everyone has had the same experience as you and not everyone would react like you do. For me the community isn't as important as it is to you. I don't need a loving, caring experience every time I enter a dungeon. I don't want a MMO to replace my social life. I just want to play a game with my friends and family. Like I said before it's not the LFG or modern game design that is the problem. It is the player.
No one is asking for a loving caring experience, don't belittle socialsing or try to stigmatise people who want more out of their games as social outcasts as you have done previously.
There are games for people who do not care about communities, people who want the dungeon run experience of WoW and LoL, you have those games, we would like games with a more meaningful instead of fleeting experience.
And that's not a lot to ask, because that's how MMO always were before they went mainstream through WoW. MMO had always been games were reputation, social experience and honor and respect for your fellow players were of importance, the harshness of the world forced you to find people who you could trust and rely on.
I disagree greenhill, 'the player' is me, you, others. We have not fundementally changed as human beings, and assumable we are not all total arses in real life, so what exactly is it in the game that makes people start shouting at people in game ' omg you fn noob what the hell did you do that for, this is ginna take all night im out of here'
What changed is mmorgs stagnated, due mostly to WOW's monopoly and abuse of that monoply. Simply put if you are enjoying a game you would be getting angry and abusive, so ergo people are playing games when they are unhappy. The question should be why are thses people playing a game they dont enjoy. The answer is addiction.
All good and well playing with friends and family, its great and easy to socialise there, true socilaisation is where you show respect and tolerance for strangers along with a littile bit of humbleness and SELF SACRIFICE. the opposite to self sacrifice is selfishness, which comes hand in hand with a feeling of entitlement.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I quoted it because I understand that to be your premise you base your argument on. Your premise is that nothing is wrong in current MMO because people still marry in MMO, people still get together in MMO, people still socialise in MMO, that the LFG tool did not destroy the community. I don't agree with that, the social experience is much worse than it used to be.
No..its worse for you. You have had bad experiences. Not everyone has had the same experience as you and not everyone would react like you do. For me the community isn't as important as it is to you. I don't need a loving, caring experience every time I enter a dungeon. I don't want a MMO to replace my social life. I just want to play a game with my friends and family. Like I said before it's not the LFG or modern game design that is the problem. It is the player.
MMO's should not replace your social life. Rather they should add too it. i still remember names of people and their character from before 2000, right now i don't have a clue anymore about who i play with. or better yet not play with because your only performing chores. instead of having fun.
LFG systems do absolutely nothing to the community. All they do is make life easier when trying to find a group. The community itself has changed from the times of earlier MMOs.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed: And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!" ~Lord George Gordon Byron
No..its worse for you. You have had bad experiences. Not everyone has had the same experience as you and not everyone would react like you do. For me the community isn't as important as it is to you. I don't need a loving, caring experience every time I enter a dungeon. I don't want a MMO to replace my social life. I just want to play a game with my friends and family. Like I said before it's not the LFG or modern game design that is the problem. It is the player.
No one is asking for a loving caring experience, don't belittle socialsing or try to stigmatise people who want more out of their games as social outcasts as you have done previously.
There are games for people who do not care about communities, people who want the dungeon run experience of WoW and LoL, you have those games, we would like games with a more meaningful instead of fleeting experience.
And that's not a lot to ask, because that's how MMO always were before they went mainstream through WoW.
You have a game. Why complain about LFG tools if your game doesn't have one? Why complain about people who don't want that slow, boring experience when you already have that game and community in place? Why did you venture out in to other games expecting the same experience that you had in EQ? Why would you even leave that utopian bliss? Why are people that enjoy todays games not experiencing anything meaningful? Maybe it's just that you don't find it meaningful so no one else should either.
You have to deal with the fact that MMOs are not created like that any more because there is no money to be made. I said it before you are niche. Why is there no money to be made? Because people find that style of game play boring as hell. Don't blame an LFG tool for you loving some boring out dated game design that will never come back. Maybe it's time for you to move away from MMOs. They are abviously not what you want.
You have a game. Why complain about LFG tools if your game doesn't have one? Why complain about people who don't want that slow, boring experience when you already have that game and community in place? Why did you venture out in to other games expecting the same experience that you had in EQ? Why would you even leave that utopian bliss? Why are people that enjoy todays games not experiencing anything meaningful? Maybe it's just that you don't find it meaningful so no one else should either.
Witnessing 3 game launches post-WoW, it has always been players who seem to suffer from ADD who "complain"
Vanguard:
-the game had meaningful travel helping community, people whined until they got mounts and could move instantly from continent to continent through rift stones
Rift:
-the game required you to socialise for grouping opportunities, people whined until they had rift autogrouping during beta
FFXIV:
-people whined about everything under the sun that didn't offer them immediate gratification
It is not us who do the complaining I'm sorry to say, it is consistently the overwhelming majority of WoW players who come into games and expect every game to be as accessible as WoW.
Comments
It depends.. as always. Look, DAoC got a LFG system, and it got a very good community. So no LFG systems dont ruin the community. On the other hand, if everything get handed to you from a LFG system and you will also immediatly portet there, no communication whatsoever needed, it very much does ruin community. Because community comes from communication, and if you remove all incentives to communicate it does of course ruin communities.
So as always.. there are no simply answers.
Congregation leads to segregration which leads to isolation and alienation. It's practical and does help remedy the situation for a short period of time. Being anti-social doesn't mean one isn't capable of speaking, it just someone who goes against what the "norm" has been socialised to accept as proper behavior to not disturb the tribe as a whole, so the comfort level and complacency is kept in check.
I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap. Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...
A lot of the hype of social disorders been portrayed in the media and the awareness about it these days show lack of empathy with those who carry sorrow with them because, the societal game that people have choosen is.. tiresome.
Whatever, can I quote Bill Hicks? Yes I can. I'm sure have already heard this before, yet I always find it refreshing.
"The world is like a ride at an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it, you think it's real, because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round and it has thrills and chills and it's very brightly colored and it's very loud. And it's fun, for a while.
Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: 'Is this real? Or is this just a ride?' And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and they say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid -- ever -- because... this is just a ride.' And we kill those people.
'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride! Shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry; look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that -- ever notice that? -- and we let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because... it's just a ride, and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort. No worry. No job. No savings and money. Just a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy bigger guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one.
Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, into a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year and, instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would do many times over -- not one human being excluded -- and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever. In peace." ~ Bill Hicks
So make the selections checkboxes rather than radio buttons.
I see what you are saying and I agree, And maybe at some point a person who is "casual" wants to do a speedrun because they are limited for time. And someone who has been speedrunning wants to slow down and smell the roses. There's always room to change your mode.
Oh, and if my response was a little terse it was due to this statement:
You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.
The speedrunners look at social gamers as inconsiderate and wasting their time, while the social gamers look at the speedrunners as impatient and antisocial. It's tough to foster any kind of empathy when no communication is taking place, hence my distaste for autogrouping tools: they foster lack of communication and lack of empathy. But if they are to exist, at least give people the option to the experience they prefer. But, no, they are still no substitute for actual talking (which the speedrunners don't want to do.)
When I see this picture "good times" is not what comes to mind. Since they are all sitting in a cave I would imagine they are waiting for a mob to spawn. This looks like a bunch of bored people who due to very poor game design were forced to socialize because there was nothing else to do. If you think camping for hours on end for a mob to spawn is fun then you are a lazy developers dream. You pay your monthly fee, log in to the game to actually play it and instead you wait. You pay money to basically have a facebook with avatars until something cool happens. When playing a game translates to sitting around for hours waiting to kill a mob there is something wrong.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I don't want a game to replace my life I want it to enhance my life. I want to have fun performing actions in a game that I can not in real life. I can sit in any bar and talk to strangers. I don't need to hide behind my monitor in order to be social. I don't have to be forced in to being social by a game design that bores me to death. I would never pay for such an experience.
This is why game design has changed. People want to have fun. I don't need loot. I don't need to be "uber". I just want to actually play the game I pay for.
Am I a speed runner because I don't want to talk to you? I want to get in, get the job done, and leave. Is that such a bad thing? I am not giving you any grief. I just expect the same thing from you. Come prepared, know what you are doing and if you don't at least tell people that so we can tell you what bosses have what mechanics. Lets work as a team to accomplish the goal that we are all here to accomplish. If you don't have time to do that simply don't use a LFG tool.
I did not use the LFG tool for a raid or dungeon just so I could hold a conversation with you. I have never seen the "form a group to have a discussion option" in any LFG tool. You went in to the dungeon for a reason and if that reason was to have a conversation you are playing the wrong game. I don't think Facebook has a LFG tool.
Speed Runner seems to conjure up images of people being assh*les and thats not always true. I will help you. If you have not been in this dungeon or raid I will never give you a hard time. I won't vote to kick you if you wipe us by accident. I just don't want to know anything else about you. I don't care if you have kids, a wife, or a gold fish. I have no desire to know you past this dungeon. Why is that such a bad thing? Why can't we just play out this dungeon and go our own way?
LFG systems could be improved by requiring a personality profile to be completed first.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You play games for other reasons than those folks do. Your way is not better, just different.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's a hub where trading and grouping happens, people buffed and helped new players there too. No automated trading in games back then. That's another thing that created socialising, people traded goods and talked to each other, now you just buy from some billboard.
The game never told people that they should congregate there, it just happened.
The fact people are sitting there is not because they are waiting, they are simply playing the game by relaxing and talking to each other, getting to max level took ages, people weren't in a rush, the community came before stats for most people.
^ Epic. Thanks for that. lol
I believe that is the EC tunnel to the Desert of Ro...where yes...it was a busy travel route players used as another trade hub. It was popular...obviously.
nod, it's the EC tunnel, viewed from the direction towards the ldon camp
YEp...I was just a bit late posting before you lol. The other thing is it shows you how special these games were to those of us who played them. Even after 14 years...I can still see a pic and tell you where it is, what zone it is, and what zones branch off of it in most cases.
I can rarely name a particular area in most MMORPG's since 2004, as they didn't impact me the same way. nd no...it isn't the nostalgia thing...but EQ I felt I was in a world and I WAS the character and I determined my path and my reputation based on my actions. Not just an avatar following a set path towards "end game" and I can act like a jerk because I can buy a server switch or name change because being social means little.
yeah, people remember everything, every player I talk to remembers it all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_b9n76F5KQ
it had a very strong community that I haven't seen in any other game
I never said my way was better. I have no desire to change the way those people play their game. The problem is that anyone who does not want to pay to sit in a chatroom has to constantly defend their position. There is an elitism on these forums that if you don't agree with the snail crawl game design of yesterday that you are the problem with the industry.
Maybe those people are upset because the game design they like is dead. They would like to see one of these relics released with modern graphics. It just not going to happen though. There is no money in it. So we have to blame something. The LFG tool, the modern community, the casual player, WoW...something. It can't be that they are a niche group the like to play what the majority of gamers view as boring. It can't be that. We must all be anti-social ass h*les that hate the world and just want to be "uber leet". We all have to be 14 year old BNET kiddies that never played a "real" game.
How can it be if the modern game design and LFG tool have destroyed the social aspect of games that people are still having great social experiences? How can people still be meeting their guild members in person? How can it be that people still find RL romance in these games? How can people be forging friendships that last for years? Why is it so unfathomable that maybe it is not the LFG tool or any other part of the design of modern games? Maybe it is the player. Maybe those people that are forced to be social by outdated and boring game design need that in order to be social. Maybe its not the modern player that has the problem.
Groups went from playing with each other for hours and talking to each other non-stop to groups with dreadful experiences.
The first time I played Vindictus I said "hi all, how are you guys doing?" and the reply was "you ready or not, click your damn ready button or get kick"
In Everquest it could take 10 minutes for someone to zone into COM because it was a slow zone from Emerald Jungel. In a game like Vindictus people who take longer than 10 seconds get kicked out of their group and are blasted with profanity for holding up others.
That's a great social experience?
Most people I meet in new MMO want to rush everything, they no longer have the time to relax, they want everything here and now and don't want to enjoy the experience, they are driven by loot and progress, incapable of enjoying the here and now.
And this transcends MMO, people want to be entertained and do everything, and cram as much instant gratification as possible into as little time as possible. People are nervous and on edge, they don't relax anymore, are highly stressed and can not stand still for a minute and reflect or just do things at a slow pace, it has to be here and now, no time to do things right or slow, rush rush rush.
I love how you quote one piece of one sentence in my post. That is truly awesome. You ignore all of the other things I say and just quote that..lol..but its the new generation of gamers that can not communicate.
I quoted it because I understand that to be your premise you base your argument on. Your premise is that nothing is wrong in current MMO because people still marry in MMO, people still get together in MMO, people still socialise in MMO, that the LFG tool did not destroy the community. I don't agree with that, the social experience is much worse than it used to be.
No..its worse for you. You have had bad experiences. Not everyone has had the same experience as you and not everyone would react like you do. For me the community isn't as important as it is to you. I don't need a loving, caring experience every time I enter a dungeon. I don't want a MMO to replace my social life. I just want to play a game with my friends and family. Like I said before it's not the LFG or modern game design that is the problem. It is the player.
No one is asking for a loving caring experience, don't belittle socialsing or try to stigmatise people who want more out of their games as social outcasts as you have done previously.
There are games for people who do not care about communities, people who want the dungeon run experience of WoW and LoL, you have those games, we would like games with a more meaningful instead of fleeting experience.
And that's not a lot to ask, because that's how MMO always were before they went mainstream through WoW. MMO had always been games were reputation, social experience and honor and respect for your fellow players were of importance, the harshness of the world forced you to find people who you could trust and rely on.
Socialising was a necessity to survive.
I disagree greenhill, 'the player' is me, you, others. We have not fundementally changed as human beings, and assumable we are not all total arses in real life, so what exactly is it in the game that makes people start shouting at people in game ' omg you fn noob what the hell did you do that for, this is ginna take all night im out of here'
What changed is mmorgs stagnated, due mostly to WOW's monopoly and abuse of that monoply. Simply put if you are enjoying a game you would be getting angry and abusive, so ergo people are playing games when they are unhappy. The question should be why are thses people playing a game they dont enjoy. The answer is addiction.
All good and well playing with friends and family, its great and easy to socialise there, true socilaisation is where you show respect and tolerance for strangers along with a littile bit of humbleness and SELF SACRIFICE. the opposite to self sacrifice is selfishness, which comes hand in hand with a feeling of entitlement.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
MMO's should not replace your social life. Rather they should add too it. i still remember names of people and their character from before 2000, right now i don't have a clue anymore about who i play with. or better yet not play with because your only performing chores. instead of having fun.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron
You have a game. Why complain about LFG tools if your game doesn't have one? Why complain about people who don't want that slow, boring experience when you already have that game and community in place? Why did you venture out in to other games expecting the same experience that you had in EQ? Why would you even leave that utopian bliss? Why are people that enjoy todays games not experiencing anything meaningful? Maybe it's just that you don't find it meaningful so no one else should either.
You have to deal with the fact that MMOs are not created like that any more because there is no money to be made. I said it before you are niche. Why is there no money to be made? Because people find that style of game play boring as hell. Don't blame an LFG tool for you loving some boring out dated game design that will never come back. Maybe it's time for you to move away from MMOs. They are abviously not what you want.
Witnessing 3 game launches post-WoW, it has always been players who seem to suffer from ADD who "complain"
Vanguard:
-the game had meaningful travel helping community, people whined until they got mounts and could move instantly from continent to continent through rift stones
Rift:
-the game required you to socialise for grouping opportunities, people whined until they had rift autogrouping during beta
FFXIV:
-people whined about everything under the sun that didn't offer them immediate gratification
It is not us who do the complaining I'm sorry to say, it is consistently the overwhelming majority of WoW players who come into games and expect every game to be as accessible as WoW.