There's a difference between grinding that is transparent and grinding that is obvious. Most people hate grinding that is obvious. Sitting in one place, killing the same mobs over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...
You get the point. That sucks. Having to repeat the same activities for hours every day to have any hope of advancing is absurd. If it's invisible, if it's hidden in a wide variety of different activities where you can move from one to another quickly and easily, that's bearable.
that is YOUR opinion.
i have to say i enjoyed my 48hour sraight Grind to get from lvl 48-49 in EQOA pulling gryphons the entire day while chatting with my group. i enjoyed that much more then dungeon running heroics in WoW to get gear...
Originally posted by Quizzical People who say they want leveling to be slow tend to mean that they want leveling to be slow for everyone else.
There's a lot of truth in that.
No, no, you guys have it wrong, not only do I want the leveling to be slower, but I want to force you to group up and socialize with me while we take our time progressing through the content..
(and like it)
Yeah, but most of us live in the real world and realize that's just not going to happen.
LOL, c'mon these are fantasy games afterall....... that's OK, you can be taught still hope yet.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
i have to say i enjoyed my 48hour sraight Grind to get from lvl 48-49 in EQOA pulling gryphons the entire day while chatting with my group. i enjoyed that much more then dungeon running heroics in WoW to get gear...
However, I think you prove his point.
You were talking with friends and engaging in a group activity. You "might" have thought differently if it was just you. So in fact the event was you talking and interacting with friends.
It goes back to my "Elder Scrolls" example. For the most part, people in an elderscrolls game don't really complain that they are grind fests. that's because their goals are to "explore this cave" or "retrieve this item".
the mobs that are in the way of the objective are bypassed in some way. Many times they are killed and of course your combat skills advance. So you might kill 20 mobs exploring. but at no time does someone say "man I had to go and kill 20 mobs. Going to go to another cave to do it again."
And rarely to people go into a cave thinking "oh, I have to level my skills".
Though I did once "grind out" some destruction skills in morrowind after cleaning a cave/dwemer ruin of bandits. I realized my destruction was constantly failing so in the darkness I repeated casting fire ball and resting and repeated the process until it raised a bit. For me it was a very immersive experience as it felt like I was sequestered in the dark, hidden away so I could practice my arcane arts. A rare occurence but but it "felt right" because of how I was thinking of it.
However, usually players are just playing the game and not just killing mobs for the sake of killing mobs.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
i have to say i enjoyed my 48hour sraight Grind to get from lvl 48-49 in EQOA pulling gryphons the entire day while chatting with my group. i enjoyed that much more then dungeon running heroics in WoW to get gear...
However, I think you prove his point.
You were talking with friends and engaging in a group activity. You "might" have thought differently if it was just you. So in fact the event was you talking and interacting with friends.
It goes back to my "Elder Scrolls" example. For the most part, people in an elderscrolls game don't really complain that they are grind fests. that's because their goals are to "explore this cave" or "retrieve this item".
the mobs that are in the way of the objective are bypassed in some way. Many times they are killed and of course your combat skills advance. So you might kill 20 mobs exploring. but at no time does someone say "man I had to go and kill 20 mobs. Going to go to another cave to do it again."
And rarely to people go into a cave thinking "oh, I have to level my skills".
Though I did once "grind out" some destruction skills in morrowind after cleaning a cave/dwemer ruin of bandits. I realized my destruction was constantly failing so in the darkness I repeated casting fire ball and resting and repeated the process until it raised a bit. For me it was a very immersive experience as it felt like I was sequestered in the dark, hidden away so I could practice my arcane arts. A rare occurence but but it "felt right" because of how I was thinking of it.
However, usually players are just playing the game and not just killing mobs for the sake of killing mobs.
Immersion, something that is sadly lacking in many mmorpgs these days.
Harking back to UO, it may have been arduous but it also seemed right to have to learn inscription and magery before you could train to mark runes or write spell scrolls or even cast spells with any success. Heck, the higher level spells you had to learn from fighting mobs with those abilities as they cast them on you(not sure if that's changed over the years, it's been awhile).
In most "games" now you just have to choose that class and lo and behold you suddenly know pretty much everything there is to know and as your character gets older(levels up to 10, 20, 30, 60 whatever) and the few advanced skills you didn't get at "birth" are often just bought from some npc vendor, no need to actually learn or train it.
On one hand, people cant stand how long it use to take them to get to endgame, nevermind what was avalible there or not.
On the other hand this forum is packed full of the same people who hate grind and progression complaining how no game can hold their interest past a month.
If the game went back to being about the journey and not the endgame perhaps these people would stay involved longer than a month...which ironically is the same amount of time most games have standardized as the max time they want someone to take to hit endgame.
Also...so many people use the phrase, or similar "endgame makes or breaks a game" would this be true if someone spent a year progressing there?
I really think too many people have become obsessed with racing to endgame, missing all aspects that are RPG, looking up the "OP" class with the "OP" build...trying to be the dominant pvper...and when they realize that everyone else is in the same boat, and theres not much else to do...and there is zero connection with the character your playing since you blew through content in a few weeks to get there....well walking away is really the only option...well other than complaining and calling the game a failure.
IMO by giving the vocal players what they want...the gamers have ruined mmorpgs. im not saying that a shallow and easy mmorpg shouldnt exist, hell GW2 is a prime example of this working...well kinds of... but it shouldnt be the standardized norm...which it is.
Your choice is deal with this uber fast trip to endgame and actiony FPS style mini games or devle into the world of unfinished buggy indy games which will never get support due to being forever behind in polish and features.
Someone needs to break this mold set forth on the gaming world. I dont mind the grind if its worthwhile and combat is fun...hell i prefer it to the back and forth quest hub race currently in every game...yes even the games that mask those hubs as events.
Today mmos take about a month to reach max level and about 2 months to whine about there is nothing left to do because most mmo devs make shallow mmo experiences. FFXI did it the right way. Sure there was grind but the journey to the end was enjoyable.
Well how many times have you actually reached the true end of a MMORPG: beaten the end boss, or achieved best-in-slot-everything?
It's possible to criticize the quality of content, like how AoC near launch didn't have enough quests through mid-game and players were basically forced to grind to level up. But I don't really think more than 1 in 100k players are actually completely beating most MMORPGs.
Basically there's tons of journey in the better MMORPGs out there, and whether you're at the max level quick or slow is pretty irrelevant because that's only one type of journey.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Today mmos take about a month to reach max level and about 2 months to whine about there is nothing left to do because most mmo devs make shallow mmo experiences. FFXI did it the right way. Sure there was grind but the journey to the end was enjoyable.
Well how many times have you actually reached the true end of a MMORPG: beaten the end boss, or achieved best-in-slot-everything?
It's possible to criticize the quality of content, like how AoC near launch didn't have enough quests through mid-game and players were basically forced to grind to level up. But I don't really think more than 1 in 100k players are actually completely beating most MMORPGs.
Basically there's tons of journey in the better MMORPGs out there, and whether you're at the max level quick or slow is pretty irrelevant because that's only one type of journey.
il keep it in WoW terms. All the expansions (vanila asswel ofc) i activly took part in. the best in slot gear thing is irrelevent because of RNG.
You don't get the point he is trying to tell. We Rush to the endgame now making the game very shallow. and that endgame is dumbed down making it shallow asswel. All those games have the exact same concept and feeling towards them so after you have done most. and i say most because people indeed don't fully clear the game before quiting or beated all raids at that time. they don't have to to feel bored.
right now im playing WoW again and im in LFR doing the new raid throne of the thunder king or ToT for short. i have to say im abit exited. want to know why? we wiped. we went in there with no clue and he beat us down. it made me think again what is happening what can we do (without reading the now oh so handy ability guide) i (im a tank) came up with a strategy and we beat his ass to the ground right after it. i loved that again. i felt a tiny bit of an acomplishment. the next 2 bosses went about the same way. and i cannot wait to see the rest.
But when im done with the entire LFR in i think 4 weeks when they have released evrything im pretty much done with WoW again. oh you might say go do normal or heroic. Yeah i could but that issnt a comlishment. it then turns into dare i say it a grind. i will never get that feel of acomplishment again even if i strugle for weeks on killing a boss. because i already killed him. yes on a lower difficulty but that doesnt matter. that doesnt keep people playing.
to make it not shallow that boss needs to beat me down hard and i have to overcome him by hard work. then i can feel accomplished it would actually mean something for me to kill it.
Well how many times have you actually reached the true end of a MMORPG: beaten the end boss, or achieved best-in-slot-everything?
That post is a great example of how homogenized and lacking in diversity the MMO platform currently is, when such a universal statement can be made about the gameplay. The same statement made in 2003 would have seemed rather odd.
Here's a list of what was popular or relatively known at the time:
A Tale in the Desert
EVE Online
Neocron
Everquest
Asheron's Call
DAoC
Shadowbane
Puzzle Pirates
SWG
Furcadia
There
Planetside
Second Life
Dransik
Toon Town
Planet Entropia
Shattered Galaxy
Earth and Beyond
The Sims Online
Allegiance
Despite the chanting of the EQ flagellates whotruly believe their game was then, is now and always will be the sum of MMO design, it was one of many different ways to make an MMO, and not at all the majority. You'll also notice 'the old school grind' wasn't even possible in half of them because such gameplay didn't even exist.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Today mmos take about a month to reach max level and about 2 months to whine about there is nothing left to do because most mmo devs make shallow mmo experiences. FFXI did it the right way. Sure there was grind but the journey to the end was enjoyable.
Well how many times have you actually reached the true end of a MMORPG: beaten the end boss, or achieved best-in-slot-everything?
It's possible to criticize the quality of content, like how AoC near launch didn't have enough quests through mid-game and players were basically forced to grind to level up. But I don't really think more than 1 in 100k players are actually completely beating most MMORPGs.
Basically there's tons of journey in the better MMORPGs out there, and whether you're at the max level quick or slow is pretty irrelevant because that's only one type of journey.
Sounds pretty silly to hear someone say "completely beating most MMORPG's".
Side note: Getting best-of-everything-in-slot requires....you guessed it...GRIND! That many of you so prominently moan about.
If I worked hard to improve my physique and became shredded, I would feel proud of my self for my accomplishment. If I could just take a pill that would give me the same physique the next day, the end result would be the same but the sense of accomplishment and state of mind would be totally different. The "grind" is what defines your experience on you journey to the top.If you skip the grind in a grind based game then you skip the journey. Grind doesn't have to be so boring. If there are elements of risk it can even be challenging.
The point is for something to be worth anything to anyone, they must have earned it. Grind is one way of earning. However, the grind is not worth anything, if everyone is not on same terms, because its all about comparing your efford to someone else. This is the essense of mmorpgs and all games with progression.. evolving in even terms, fighting with even rules.
If you think "I am playing for fun, and not to compare with others", you are missing the point, and also you are mistaken if you think those who are competetive aren't having as much fun as you.
I have never heard anyone say "GEE I LOVE GRINDING!!!"
Wow
Really.... Who in the hell says something like that? I don't care if you ask an old school or "modern" era gamer. Nobody says I can't wait to spend the next day grinding so that I can gain some levels. If you asked an old school gamer about the grind he might say it's a necessary evil. If you asked a "modern" gamer he might say he wants combat to be faster and doesn't mind grinding as long as the combat is fast paced, but he really just wants to get to the end game.
The point is for something to be worth anything to anyone, they must have earned it. Grind is one way of earning. However, the grind is not worth anything, if everyone is not on same terms, because its all about comparing your efford to someone else. This is the essense of mmorpgs and all games with progression.. evolving in even terms, fighting with even rules.
If you think "I am playing for fun, and not to compare with others", you are missing the point, and also you are mistaken if you think those who are competetive aren't having as much fun as you.
Well to this I would say, competition is not everyone's, perhaps not even most people's although I have never seen any numbers for or against, reason to play an MMO. It is just a sometimes reason while in the midst of doing other things.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
That post is a great example of how homogenized and lacking in diversity the MMO platform currently is, when such a universal statement can be made about the gameplay. The same statement made in 2003 would have seemed rather odd.
Here's a list of what was popular or relatively known at the time:
A Tale in the Desert
EVE Online
Neocron
Everquest
Asheron's Call
DAoC
Shadowbane
Puzzle Pirates
SWG
Furcadia
There
Planetside
Second Life
Dransik
Toon Town
Planet Entropia
Shattered Galaxy
Earth and Beyond
The Sims Online
Allegiance
Despite the chanting of the EQ flagellates whotruly believe their game was then, is now and always will be the sum of MMO design, it was one of many different ways to make an MMO, and not at all the majority. You'll also notice 'the old school grind' wasn't even possible in half of them because such gameplay didn't even exist.
Eh, he was discussing MMORPGs so I gave a couple major examples from MMORPGs. Each of the games in your list has some point at which the developer-authored PVE content is consumed, or is a PVP game, or isn't really a game (Second Life). Those points in those games, whatever they may be, are ends.
And for many games, getting to that point doesn't happen for 99.99% of the playerbase, which was my point: for nearly all players, there's always journey left. Whether you're journeying at max level or journeying in a level-grind is irrelevant. It's all journey until the content is completely consumed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Ortwig People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."
because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.
Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.
Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right? Therefore it's not a grind anymore.
Grind = time. Everything in a game is a grind. It makes it simple to think about and won't get stuck in life worrying about the "correct" definition of grind.
No sorry. Grind is a repetetive, monotonous and unpleasant activity. You know like grinding stone, wheat... wearing it down... Thats where it came from.
I am trying to open your mind. Change the definition.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
grind should not = progression IN ANY WAY. That was years ago. Leave it in the sad and forgotten past full of grind. The present wants to keep fighting to keep the grind alive. Thats Enough!.... Remove levels, Remove grinds, Remove everything that is not fun (grind tops the list). Any sort of progression should be fun, challenging, and interesting. Not a horrible grind because thats what i need to do to get my nea gear...... gear grind is also BS. Away with all that crap.
Sometimes i think all these devs/pubs that keep adding this crap to mmos think we are some kind of zombies that will give them money just because. Stop the crap or you aint getting a dime from me. If devs need enough time to make more content, add dev kits for people to create their own content like the foundry. Also dont add levels. Levels only lead to an imaginary end game that noone ever sees. When i log out and uninstall the game for any reason, thats when i can say i reached end game. Im done.
Originally posted by Ortwig People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."
because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.
Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.
Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right? Therefore it's not a grind anymore.
Grind = time. Everything in a game is a grind. It makes it simple to think about and won't get stuck in life worrying about the "correct" definition of grind.
No sorry. Grind is a repetetive, monotonous and unpleasant activity. You know like grinding stone, wheat... wearing it down... Thats where it came from.
I am trying to open your mind. Change the definition.
Or get people to use the word properly. It can be done. For example, it took a couple of years to get DAoCers that were new to MMOs to learn that 'bot' doesn't mean 'second account' or 'two boxing' but they finally learned.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Old school grinding doesn't really exist anymore outside of Korean MMO's, even then the exp curves aren't as steep as they used to be. I don't really hear people saying old school grind was great, but instead that it was rough. Once you do 5% an hour, you don't want to do it again. Ever.
Originally posted by Ortwig People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."
because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.
Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.
Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right? Therefore it's not a grind anymore.
Grind = time. Everything in a game is a grind. It makes it simple to think about and won't get stuck in life worrying about the "correct" definition of grind.
No sorry. Grind is a repetetive, monotonous and unpleasant activity. You know like grinding stone, wheat... wearing it down... Thats where it came from.
I am trying to open your mind. Change the definition.
How does changing the definition into something less specific and more meaningless help in any way. Doing that would not help open or close someone's mind.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
il keep it in WoW terms. All the expansions (vanila asswel ofc) i activly took part in. the best in slot gear thing is irrelevent because of RNG.
You don't get the point he is trying to tell. We Rush to the endgame now making the game very shallow. and that endgame is dumbed down making it shallow asswel. All those games have the exact same concept and feeling towards them so after you have done most. and i say most because people indeed don't fully clear the game before quiting or beated all raids at that time. they don't have to to feel bored.
right now im playing WoW again and im in LFR doing the new raid throne of the thunder king or ToT for short. i have to say im abit exited. want to know why? we wiped. we went in there with no clue and he beat us down. it made me think again what is happening what can we do (without reading the now oh so handy ability guide) i (im a tank) came up with a strategy and we beat his ass to the ground right after it. i loved that again. i felt a tiny bit of an acomplishment. the next 2 bosses went about the same way. and i cannot wait to see the rest.
But when im done with the entire LFR in i think 4 weeks when they have released evrything im pretty much done with WoW again. oh you might say go do normal or heroic. Yeah i could but that issnt a comlishment. it then turns into dare i say it a grind. i will never get that feel of acomplishment again even if i strugle for weeks on killing a boss. because i already killed him. yes on a lower difficulty but that doesnt matter. that doesnt keep people playing.
to make it not shallow that boss needs to beat me down hard and i have to overcome him by hard work. then i can feel accomplished it would actually mean something for me to kill it.
What are you talking about? RNG is not a substantial factor in a 3-15 minute boss fight, and every single upgrade increases your character's capabilities.
Nothing about the rush to endgame makes the game shallow. From my personal experience, the endless XP grind is actually shallower on account of never being put to different tests (fight the same mobs for 24 hours straight and you're going to level up, but to earn that next upgrade you need to learn Boss Mechanic #72.)
Honestly if you're concerned about game depth, I have no clue why you're giving up at LFR versions of bosses. WOW is grindiest when you consider all the prerequisites to reaching its hardest content. WOW is deepest at the points where tactical thinking is most required. So you're giving up right at the point where things have started to get hard.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sounds pretty silly to hear someone say "completely beating most MMORPG's".
Side note: Getting best-of-everything-in-slot requires....you guessed it...GRIND! That many of you so prominently moan about.
It does, doesn't it? That was part of the point. Players complain of not enough content, in a genre where completing all the content is so rare that "beating the MMORPG" sounds completely silly.
Not sure what you're really saying regarding grind. The words "many of you so prominently moan about" aren't exactly conducive to good discussion.
If you want to discuss grind, let's start by agreeing that fighting the same mob 40 hours straight is grindier than those same 40 hours spread across dungeon bosses, raid bosses, quests, dailies, crafting, farming, and PVP.
We might also agree that the latter is a more enjoyable game (though really it hinges on the quality of content of each of those varied activities.) Assuming content quality was constant though, we could easily agree that if a third game had even more content variety (less grind), it would be more fun.
At that point we'd have a fairly reasonable desire for varied gameplay, right? Well, the problem is some other player can come along with anger-goggles on and claim we're "moaning about grind". In a way, we are. But why not moan about grind? Grind isn't as fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.
In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.
No golden insight awards for this one, though.
Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it
Well that begs a new question doesn't. Since a preference, opinoin... is only in our heads, if something exists only in our heads, does it actually exist.
IMO no it doesn't. Grind is entirely perception. Change your view and the grind changes, therefore it never really existed in the first place.
That sounds like logic, until you apply it to reality, preferances do exist, and the impact choices, choices to buy or not buy a product float or sink companies. I know it sounds cool to ignore the physical manefestation of personal thought, but thought and preferance have substance because they determine the actions of physical beings.
Consider the subject more.
Originally posted by DamonVile
Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it
Might be because the first paragraph was full of sarcasim about the opposing belief
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.
In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.
No golden insight awards for this one, though.
Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it
Well that begs a new question doesn't. Since a preference, opinoin... is only in our heads, if something exists only in our heads, does it actually exist.
IMO no it doesn't. Grind is entirely perception. Change your view and the grind changes, therefore it never really existed in the first place.
That sounds like logic, until you apply it to reality, preferances do exist, and the impact choices, choices to buy or not buy a product float or sink companies. I know it sounds cool to ignore the physical manefestation of personal thought, but thought and preferance have substance because they determine the actions of physical beings.
Consider the subject more.
They exist only in your head. Thre is nothing tangible or intangible in the physical world, because they are not in the physical world. They are only in your head. Thoughts and preferences do not have substance. Your actions do have substance and your actions should reflect your thoughts. However once again thoughts change.
They exist only in your head, there is substance to them, a repercussion only comes when you turn those thoughts into actions.
If your views change, the physical world doesn't change, only your perception changes.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Side note: Getting best-of-everything-in-slot requires....you guessed it...GRIND! That many of you so prominently moan about.
that is because grind is what the devs throw at us, like a bone to a dog to keep it entertained. Implying that theres nothing else to do in a game. If they as developers cant be more creative about ways to exchange grind progression with something different that actually dont involve grinding over and over. Then thats not my problem. GW2 tried to do it better and did it better just by hiding numbers under a filling bar, mixing many quests into 1 huge event shared by everyone nearby and actually having a living world. Still needs improvement, tweaks and bigger and longer events that dont repeat as often but still its the best progression we have to date. Everything else is just an EQ/WoW grindfest copy, some more intense and boring than others.
They(devs)inject us with grind like a drug, i dont need grind in my game, any kind of grind. Adding lots of them jsut to make the game feel long only make the game worse. Thats not a big huge long game? thats bullcrap, if devs cant come up with enough content to justify the lenght of the progression in relation to the time they take to add new content, then just make small and short term games. Not full MMORPGs.
I dont want to sound harsh towards devs, but im not an idiot or a zombie. Im being realistic, You want my cash, make your game worthy of it. And anything that involves mindless grinding to progress through the whole game (specially a long term big mmorpg) is not worthy of time and money.
They exist only in your head. Thre is nothing tangible or intangible in the physical (probably ment mental) world, because they are not in the physical world. They are only in your head. Thoughts and preferences do not have substance. Your actions do have substance and your actions should reflect your thoughts. However once again thoughts change.
They exist only in your head, there is substance to them, a repercussion only comes when you turn those thoughts into actions.
If your views change, the physical world doesn't change, only your perception changes.
Your thoughts are only tempered by other thoughts, in total, your thoughts determine your action and are in control of your actions. Trying to seperate individual thoughts which are not acted upon fails to acknowledge that they are simply being supressed by other thoughts, your still acting directly on one thought or another.
Beside getting horribly off subject because your thought about presenting your opinion is more important to you than your thought on the definition, circumsmtances of, and solution for grind... My post describes the relevance of grind and how identifying different perceptions, can lead to effective solutions based on the understanding of compelling content across a maximum number of preferances.
Perhaps you'll do me a favor and sort your thoughts to yourself, I don't really care if you think thoughts are tangible, relevant or real, it doesn't contribute anything to the improvement or elimination of grind.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Comments
that is YOUR opinion.
i have to say i enjoyed my 48hour sraight Grind to get from lvl 48-49 in EQOA pulling gryphons the entire day while chatting with my group. i enjoyed that much more then dungeon running heroics in WoW to get gear...
LOL, c'mon these are fantasy games afterall....... that's OK, you can be taught still hope yet.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
However, I think you prove his point.
You were talking with friends and engaging in a group activity. You "might" have thought differently if it was just you. So in fact the event was you talking and interacting with friends.
It goes back to my "Elder Scrolls" example. For the most part, people in an elderscrolls game don't really complain that they are grind fests. that's because their goals are to "explore this cave" or "retrieve this item".
the mobs that are in the way of the objective are bypassed in some way. Many times they are killed and of course your combat skills advance. So you might kill 20 mobs exploring. but at no time does someone say "man I had to go and kill 20 mobs. Going to go to another cave to do it again."
And rarely to people go into a cave thinking "oh, I have to level my skills".
Though I did once "grind out" some destruction skills in morrowind after cleaning a cave/dwemer ruin of bandits. I realized my destruction was constantly failing so in the darkness I repeated casting fire ball and resting and repeated the process until it raised a bit. For me it was a very immersive experience as it felt like I was sequestered in the dark, hidden away so I could practice my arcane arts. A rare occurence but but it "felt right" because of how I was thinking of it.
However, usually players are just playing the game and not just killing mobs for the sake of killing mobs.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Immersion, something that is sadly lacking in many mmorpgs these days.
Harking back to UO, it may have been arduous but it also seemed right to have to learn inscription and magery before you could train to mark runes or write spell scrolls or even cast spells with any success. Heck, the higher level spells you had to learn from fighting mobs with those abilities as they cast them on you(not sure if that's changed over the years, it's been awhile).
In most "games" now you just have to choose that class and lo and behold you suddenly know pretty much everything there is to know and as your character gets older(levels up to 10, 20, 30, 60 whatever) and the few advanced skills you didn't get at "birth" are often just bought from some npc vendor, no need to actually learn or train it.
On one hand, people cant stand how long it use to take them to get to endgame, nevermind what was avalible there or not.
On the other hand this forum is packed full of the same people who hate grind and progression complaining how no game can hold their interest past a month.
If the game went back to being about the journey and not the endgame perhaps these people would stay involved longer than a month...which ironically is the same amount of time most games have standardized as the max time they want someone to take to hit endgame.
Also...so many people use the phrase, or similar "endgame makes or breaks a game" would this be true if someone spent a year progressing there?
I really think too many people have become obsessed with racing to endgame, missing all aspects that are RPG, looking up the "OP" class with the "OP" build...trying to be the dominant pvper...and when they realize that everyone else is in the same boat, and theres not much else to do...and there is zero connection with the character your playing since you blew through content in a few weeks to get there....well walking away is really the only option...well other than complaining and calling the game a failure.
IMO by giving the vocal players what they want...the gamers have ruined mmorpgs. im not saying that a shallow and easy mmorpg shouldnt exist, hell GW2 is a prime example of this working...well kinds of... but it shouldnt be the standardized norm...which it is.
Your choice is deal with this uber fast trip to endgame and actiony FPS style mini games or devle into the world of unfinished buggy indy games which will never get support due to being forever behind in polish and features.
Someone needs to break this mold set forth on the gaming world. I dont mind the grind if its worthwhile and combat is fun...hell i prefer it to the back and forth quest hub race currently in every game...yes even the games that mask those hubs as events.
Well how many times have you actually reached the true end of a MMORPG: beaten the end boss, or achieved best-in-slot-everything?
It's possible to criticize the quality of content, like how AoC near launch didn't have enough quests through mid-game and players were basically forced to grind to level up. But I don't really think more than 1 in 100k players are actually completely beating most MMORPGs.
Basically there's tons of journey in the better MMORPGs out there, and whether you're at the max level quick or slow is pretty irrelevant because that's only one type of journey.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
il keep it in WoW terms. All the expansions (vanila asswel ofc) i activly took part in. the best in slot gear thing is irrelevent because of RNG.
You don't get the point he is trying to tell. We Rush to the endgame now making the game very shallow. and that endgame is dumbed down making it shallow asswel. All those games have the exact same concept and feeling towards them so after you have done most. and i say most because people indeed don't fully clear the game before quiting or beated all raids at that time. they don't have to to feel bored.
right now im playing WoW again and im in LFR doing the new raid throne of the thunder king or ToT for short. i have to say im abit exited. want to know why? we wiped. we went in there with no clue and he beat us down. it made me think again what is happening what can we do (without reading the now oh so handy ability guide) i (im a tank) came up with a strategy and we beat his ass to the ground right after it. i loved that again. i felt a tiny bit of an acomplishment. the next 2 bosses went about the same way. and i cannot wait to see the rest.
But when im done with the entire LFR in i think 4 weeks when they have released evrything im pretty much done with WoW again. oh you might say go do normal or heroic. Yeah i could but that issnt a comlishment. it then turns into dare i say it a grind. i will never get that feel of acomplishment again even if i strugle for weeks on killing a boss. because i already killed him. yes on a lower difficulty but that doesnt matter. that doesnt keep people playing.
to make it not shallow that boss needs to beat me down hard and i have to overcome him by hard work. then i can feel accomplished it would actually mean something for me to kill it.
That post is a great example of how homogenized and lacking in diversity the MMO platform currently is, when such a universal statement can be made about the gameplay. The same statement made in 2003 would have seemed rather odd.
Here's a list of what was popular or relatively known at the time:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sounds pretty silly to hear someone say "completely beating most MMORPG's".
Side note: Getting best-of-everything-in-slot requires....you guessed it...GRIND! That many of you so prominently moan about.
Op you are missing the point.
The point is for something to be worth anything to anyone, they must have earned it. Grind is one way of earning. However, the grind is not worth anything, if everyone is not on same terms, because its all about comparing your efford to someone else. This is the essense of mmorpgs and all games with progression.. evolving in even terms, fighting with even rules.
If you think "I am playing for fun, and not to compare with others", you are missing the point, and also you are mistaken if you think those who are competetive aren't having as much fun as you.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I have never heard anyone say "GEE I LOVE GRINDING!!!"
Wow
Really.... Who in the hell says something like that? I don't care if you ask an old school or "modern" era gamer. Nobody says I can't wait to spend the next day grinding so that I can gain some levels. If you asked an old school gamer about the grind he might say it's a necessary evil. If you asked a "modern" gamer he might say he wants combat to be faster and doesn't mind grinding as long as the combat is fast paced, but he really just wants to get to the end game.
Wow
WHO HAS EVER SAID I LOVE THE GRIND?!
Well to this I would say, competition is not everyone's, perhaps not even most people's although I have never seen any numbers for or against, reason to play an MMO. It is just a sometimes reason while in the midst of doing other things.
Eh, he was discussing MMORPGs so I gave a couple major examples from MMORPGs. Each of the games in your list has some point at which the developer-authored PVE content is consumed, or is a PVP game, or isn't really a game (Second Life). Those points in those games, whatever they may be, are ends.
And for many games, getting to that point doesn't happen for 99.99% of the playerbase, which was my point: for nearly all players, there's always journey left. Whether you're journeying at max level or journeying in a level-grind is irrelevant. It's all journey until the content is completely consumed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am trying to open your mind. Change the definition.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
grind should not = progression IN ANY WAY. That was years ago. Leave it in the sad and forgotten past full of grind. The present wants to keep fighting to keep the grind alive. Thats Enough!.... Remove levels, Remove grinds, Remove everything that is not fun (grind tops the list). Any sort of progression should be fun, challenging, and interesting. Not a horrible grind because thats what i need to do to get my nea gear...... gear grind is also BS. Away with all that crap.
Sometimes i think all these devs/pubs that keep adding this crap to mmos think we are some kind of zombies that will give them money just because. Stop the crap or you aint getting a dime from me. If devs need enough time to make more content, add dev kits for people to create their own content like the foundry. Also dont add levels. Levels only lead to an imaginary end game that noone ever sees. When i log out and uninstall the game for any reason, thats when i can say i reached end game. Im done.
Or get people to use the word properly. It can be done. For example, it took a couple of years to get DAoCers that were new to MMOs to learn that 'bot' doesn't mean 'second account' or 'two boxing' but they finally learned.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How does changing the definition into something less specific and more meaningless help in any way. Doing that would not help open or close someone's mind.
What are you talking about? RNG is not a substantial factor in a 3-15 minute boss fight, and every single upgrade increases your character's capabilities.
Nothing about the rush to endgame makes the game shallow. From my personal experience, the endless XP grind is actually shallower on account of never being put to different tests (fight the same mobs for 24 hours straight and you're going to level up, but to earn that next upgrade you need to learn Boss Mechanic #72.)
Honestly if you're concerned about game depth, I have no clue why you're giving up at LFR versions of bosses. WOW is grindiest when you consider all the prerequisites to reaching its hardest content. WOW is deepest at the points where tactical thinking is most required. So you're giving up right at the point where things have started to get hard.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It does, doesn't it? That was part of the point. Players complain of not enough content, in a genre where completing all the content is so rare that "beating the MMORPG" sounds completely silly.
Not sure what you're really saying regarding grind. The words "many of you so prominently moan about" aren't exactly conducive to good discussion.
If you want to discuss grind, let's start by agreeing that fighting the same mob 40 hours straight is grindier than those same 40 hours spread across dungeon bosses, raid bosses, quests, dailies, crafting, farming, and PVP.
We might also agree that the latter is a more enjoyable game (though really it hinges on the quality of content of each of those varied activities.) Assuming content quality was constant though, we could easily agree that if a third game had even more content variety (less grind), it would be more fun.
At that point we'd have a fairly reasonable desire for varied gameplay, right? Well, the problem is some other player can come along with anger-goggles on and claim we're "moaning about grind". In a way, we are. But why not moan about grind? Grind isn't as fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That sounds like logic, until you apply it to reality, preferances do exist, and the impact choices, choices to buy or not buy a product float or sink companies. I know it sounds cool to ignore the physical manefestation of personal thought, but thought and preferance have substance because they determine the actions of physical beings.
Consider the subject more.
Might be because the first paragraph was full of sarcasim about the opposing belief
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
They exist only in your head. Thre is nothing tangible or intangible in the physical world, because they are not in the physical world. They are only in your head. Thoughts and preferences do not have substance. Your actions do have substance and your actions should reflect your thoughts. However once again thoughts change.
They exist only in your head, there is substance to them, a repercussion only comes when you turn those thoughts into actions.
If your views change, the physical world doesn't change, only your perception changes.
that is because grind is what the devs throw at us, like a bone to a dog to keep it entertained. Implying that theres nothing else to do in a game. If they as developers cant be more creative about ways to exchange grind progression with something different that actually dont involve grinding over and over. Then thats not my problem. GW2 tried to do it better and did it better just by hiding numbers under a filling bar, mixing many quests into 1 huge event shared by everyone nearby and actually having a living world. Still needs improvement, tweaks and bigger and longer events that dont repeat as often but still its the best progression we have to date. Everything else is just an EQ/WoW grindfest copy, some more intense and boring than others.
They(devs)inject us with grind like a drug, i dont need grind in my game, any kind of grind. Adding lots of them jsut to make the game feel long only make the game worse. Thats not a big huge long game? thats bullcrap, if devs cant come up with enough content to justify the lenght of the progression in relation to the time they take to add new content, then just make small and short term games. Not full MMORPGs.
I dont want to sound harsh towards devs, but im not an idiot or a zombie. Im being realistic, You want my cash, make your game worthy of it. And anything that involves mindless grinding to progress through the whole game (specially a long term big mmorpg) is not worthy of time and money.
Your thoughts are only tempered by other thoughts, in total, your thoughts determine your action and are in control of your actions. Trying to seperate individual thoughts which are not acted upon fails to acknowledge that they are simply being supressed by other thoughts, your still acting directly on one thought or another.
Beside getting horribly off subject because your thought about presenting your opinion is more important to you than your thought on the definition, circumsmtances of, and solution for grind... My post describes the relevance of grind and how identifying different perceptions, can lead to effective solutions based on the understanding of compelling content across a maximum number of preferances.
Perhaps you'll do me a favor and sort your thoughts to yourself, I don't really care if you think thoughts are tangible, relevant or real, it doesn't contribute anything to the improvement or elimination of grind.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.