Spells and ranged damage

Vargur

I think most people agree that caster damage got out of hand post-ToA. Especially hib-casters with their stun-nuke capabilities became nasty to say the least. I want casters to play a part in this game, but I don't want them to become the gods they grew into. When my brother's RR5 Runemaster two-shotted a RR11 enemy caster in less than 3 seconds I actually felt sorry for the other guy (only for a few seconds before I remembered how many people he had to have killed to reach that rank).

The question is how to make casters fun and playable without making them gods. I have been thinking about a system where a caster can begin casting a base spell and add features for as long as he dares. This would have to be done in combat, not pre-fight like the warlock. The base spell would be ready to cast pretty quick but does little damage, but if the caster is left alone he can add more damage to the spell before releasing it. Alternatively, a snare/mes/stun spell would have a base with one target and short duration (acting mmore like than an interupt than a traditional CC) and additional features like longer duration and/or larger area-of-effect can be added.

I think such a system can make caster powerful if they are given time to concoct their nastiness, but also give them the option of playing more of an interupt game with the enemy.

Something similar could be done with archers where they can hit harder if given the time to aim properly (not crit shots from stealth included).

 

Another interesting feature could be to add a archery spell system similar to Mount and Blade's system. There is no spell in that game, but archery works that you have to aim manually (not tab-targeting or click to target) and you skill determines how close to the crosshairs the arrow flies. Spells could work in a similar fashion. The FPS system could pose a problem for people playing in third-person-view, but there might be ways around that?

meddyck

This is easier than you think. Just make time to kill (TTK) about like it was in DAOC pre-TOA. You do that with play testing during alpha and beta and spreadsheet tweaking to balance spell damage values vs class hit points.

This is where rock, paper, scissors comes into play. Casters should win from range. Tanks win in melee range. Casters do need to be able to kill somebody even a tank when they start nuking them from range especially if there are hard interrupts which render them all but worthless once a tank reaches them. OTOH 2 shotting opposing casters like sometimes happened when a high rank TOAed-out wizard used his 2 fire bolts and scored lucky crits is too much.

shaodrin

its pretty easy ... give the game hard rupts and each class enough possibiltys to rupt

with this setting ... dont let the caster caster and you dont die this is the way daoc today works every melee got pet spam (the weapons got a chance of like 5% to spam a pet) and you got your classes setup up only for rupt (sham theu bard sorc pac) ok not only for rupt but in the main stage

everything is about grp setup coordination and teamplay ... but like this caster are barrly able to cast over a 5min fight and if they cast its your fault and you deserve the dmg they do and healer classes are easyly able to counter cast against a 2man cast assist ... actualy today you only use one main healer per group(drui friar and aug) and the scnd healing char got other things to do and healing only in the secound stage

Nanulak

Every class should have both a ranged attack as well as a melee attack similar to GW2.  So even if the melee gets rooted / snared  they can attack the agressor from range until the root / snare expires.  This mechanic would help even things out.

naezgul

Originally posted by grogstorm
Every class should have both a ranged attack as well as a melee attack similar to GW2.  So even if the melee gets rooted / snared  they can attack the agressor from range until the root / snare expires.  This mechanic would help even things out.

Absolutely NO!

that is why I hate that game

Brohalla

Originally posted by naezgul

Originally posted by grogstorm
Every class should have both a ranged attack as well as a melee attack similar to GW2.  So even if the melee gets rooted / snared  they can attack the agressor from range until the root / snare expires.  This mechanic would help even things out.

Absolutely NO!

that is why I hate that game

Agree.. Having melee classes with ranged attacks is a bit of a nono. Maybe short range ones.

Why would you have a caster based class if a melee class had it all?

fanglo

In DaoC, currently there are a lot of things you can do to mitigate magic damage if you choose. There is an RA called Avoidance of Magic that will outright reduce the damage you take from spells. There is also some gear options to further reduce damage, or mitigate it by proccing a absorb shield. There are also CL resist buffs, as well as class buffs. A player with all of these at max would be extremely hard to kill.

Of course there are drawbacks. Firstly if you spend all the realm points needed to max out avoidance of magic then your damage will suffer. If you build your gear template around mitigating as much magical damage, you might have to put holes elsewhere like damage/range/speed to achieve that result. If you go for the CL resists then you might miss out on the CL Heal or Disease or any of the other semi-useful abilities. Finally if you build a group around having 2 players with the specs neccessary to give you all the buffs at max then the utility of those specs suffers a bit. Though usually at least one of the players that specs for the best resist buffs will also get buff shears which is very handy.

In CU I think it would be neat if there were similar options to get better damage mitigation from magic. Some of the things I mentioned obviously don't have to be in at launch but could be added in over time to make up for the increased power of spells that will inevitably happen over time as well.

DeanMalinco

Originally posted by grogstorm
Every class should have both a ranged attack as well as a melee attack similar to GW2.  So even if the melee gets rooted / snared  they can attack the agressor from range until the root / snare expires.  This mechanic would help even things out.

disagree big time here. so sick of all the new mmo's trying to make every single class a jack of all trades. just respec and you can be ranged, or dps, or healer, or cc. NO! each class is a defined role with a different skill tree. if you want to respec its a big deal...not just minimal gold or faction points.

tank is a tank, healer is a healer....thats it. hybrids should be possible, but at the sake of gaining utility not the core skill advantage. for example, a tank could choose to select chants/auras that may be ranged/ae's...but at the sacrifice of losing dps or tanky'ness. it should not be possible to be a tank...with high/medium dps ranged spells. this is just dumb...role a new character type of you want to do it all imo.

Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by DeanMalinco

Originally posted by grogstorm
Every class should have both a ranged attack as well as a melee attack similar to GW2.  So even if the melee gets rooted / snared  they can attack the agressor from range until the root / snare expires.  This mechanic would help even things out.

disagree big time here. so sick of all the new mmo's trying to make every single class a jack of all trades. just respec and you can be ranged, or dps, or healer, or cc. NO! each class is a defined role with a different skill tree. if you want to respec its a big deal...not just minimal gold or faction points.

tank is a tank, healer is a healer....thats it. hybrids should be possible, but at the sake of gaining utility not the core skill advantage. for example, a tank could choose to select chants/auras that may be ranged/ae's...but at the sacrifice of losing dps or tanky'ness. it should not be possible to be a tank...with high/medium dps ranged spells. this is just dumb...role a new character type of you want to do it all imo.

Well, if you look at DAoC..  armsmen had crossbows, warriors had throw axe, and heroes had bows.  In WAR, most melee had some form of basic low end damage 'throw weapon' ability.

Are you trying to say no ranged abilities or strickly no ranged damage at all?

fanglo

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by DeanMalinco

Originally posted by grogstorm
Every class should have both a ranged attack as well as a melee attack similar to GW2.  So even if the melee gets rooted / snared  they can attack the agressor from range until the root / snare expires.  This mechanic would help even things out.

disagree big time here. so sick of all the new mmo's trying to make every single class a jack of all trades. just respec and you can be ranged, or dps, or healer, or cc. NO! each class is a defined role with a different skill tree. if you want to respec its a big deal...not just minimal gold or faction points.

tank is a tank, healer is a healer....thats it. hybrids should be possible, but at the sake of gaining utility not the core skill advantage. for example, a tank could choose to select chants/auras that may be ranged/ae's...but at the sacrifice of losing dps or tanky'ness. it should not be possible to be a tank...with high/medium dps ranged spells. this is just dumb...role a new character type of you want to do it all imo.

Well, if you look at DAoC..  armsmen had crossbows, warriors had throw axe, and heroes had bows.  In WAR, most melee had some form of basic low end damage 'throw weapon' ability.

Are you trying to say no ranged abilities or strickly no ranged damage at all?

Actually in DaoC now, nearly any class can get CL DD or a CL Disease or some other form of ranged spell. There are also CL styles.

The spells still follow the interupt and have hard cast times (meaning you can't cast them faster with any bonuses) these spells also do very small damage but they are useful for example as a tank you get snared, you can immidiately try and cast a disease.

Done this way I don't have a problem with melee getting these very limited ranged abilities but I don't think they should be core parts of the class but rather added on later to help players further customize their playstyle. Lastly, just like in DaoC live if you do go with the disease or dd spell you miss out on increasing youre melee damge with the CL damage add or CL damage shield. You miss out on added defense with the CL resists or CL absorb shield. It's up to the player to decide how they want to customize themselves. This way not every single melee will have a ranged attack but if a melee really wants one they can get one.

 

Niix_Ozek

I think the main purpose of those cl interupts were because of ToA and %cast speed/dmg etc casters became really powerful and one snare enabled a caster to gain distance turn and kill melee before they could reach.

I tend to blame ToA for everything though as I think it destroyed the game, should have been pve only abilities / bonuses ... would have been a perfect expansion then.

Bordog

Sort of off topic but the best thread to post this in.

With the way MMO's have developed do you think we will see the DAoC style of casting in CU? By that I mean, will a caster get interrupted from any sort of damage? Most MMO's have some sort of pushback or casters can even cast on the run. I'm of the opinion that pushback is nice, I hated trying to level in DAoC as a caster and can't kill multiple mobs because I get interrupted all the time.

Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Bordog

Sort of off topic but the best thread to post this in.

With the way MMO's have developed do you think we will see the DAoC style of casting in CU? By that I mean, will a caster get interrupted from any sort of damage? Most MMO's have some sort of pushback or casters can even cast on the run. I'm of the opinion that pushback is nice, I hated trying to level in DAoC as a caster and can't kill multiple mobs because I get interrupted all the time.

Not sure if this is in the FP's, however I have heard him state that people won't be able to cast through moving / damage in some interview.

morfidon

Originally posted by Bordog

Sort of off topic but the best thread to post this in.

With the way MMO's have developed do you think we will see the DAoC style of casting in CU? By that I mean, will a caster get interrupted from any sort of damage? Most MMO's have some sort of pushback or casters can even cast on the run. I'm of the opinion that pushback is nice, I hated trying to level in DAoC as a caster and can't kill multiple mobs because I get interrupted all the time.

So you want to play mindless way? AFAIK there will be interruption system if not - this game is already dead.

BTW if you like everything about the game, because it's easier to play it doesn't mean it's good.

kaltahn

I don't see why you can't have your cake and eat it too, in this instance.

If you subdivide the casting system, you can have interrupts in the game AND you won't feel entirely worthless if you're the interrupted caster.  Here's how I would handle it:

• The Tier I magical attack should be an attack that does VERY small damage, is usable on the run, and is otherwise very hard to interrupt.  (Note: I don't believe in auto-attack, so this shouldn't be a "fire and forget" toggled ability or anything).  You could also make it so that the caster can sacrifice the added damage this spell does in order to apply an effect, either a buff to their next casted spell or a debuff on an enemy. (Example: You lock out this ability for 10 or 15 seconds to make the next spell uninterruptable, or to activate a defensive maneuver like sprint/root/invisibility)  This damage isn't augmentable and will never be a significant source of damage, as it's meant to augment your higher-tier magical abilities.

 

• The Tier II magical attack(s) should be your interruptable casts; spammable, somewhat reliably predictable damage.  Being hit by damaging abilities during the cast will  have a chance of cancelling the spell.  The chance of disruption is influenced by the amount of damage the caster takes, so low damage, quick hits have a lower chance of cancelling the spell, but if you get bashed over the head with a two-handed hammer, expect not to hold your concentration together to get the spell off successfully.

 

• Tier III magical attacks should be interruptable, high damage, long-ish cooldown abilities that should never be cast in melee (these are for when you're on the wall of a keep doing defense) unless you're sure it's going to go off.  To liken it to DAoC, these would be your Bolt spells or Ranged + Stun spells.

This way, melee combatants will have to choose when best to deploy interrupt abilities and figure out what weapons best suit their needs when tangling with certain casters.  A similar system could even be made for melees and other ranged archetypes, so that they can pick and choose when to use certain abilities and styles (man, I miss watching perfectly executed positionals).

Odaman

Don't count on much casting while moving.... if there will be any at all. Hard interrupts all around, not % chance to interrupt or pushback stuff. Keep the ranged abilities off melee classes as much as possible (slow casting interrupts at best unless they're a hybrid). Higher damage on casters i don't mind, but they should have to work for it.

It probably won't happen though, even in a "niche" game.

Daimonion69

Originally posted by meddyck

This is easier than you think. Just make time to kill (TTK) about like it was in DAOC pre-TOA. You do that with play testing during alpha and beta and spreadsheet tweaking to balance spell damage values vs class hit points.

This is where rock, paper, scissors comes into play. Casters should win from range. Tanks win in melee range. Casters do need to be able to kill somebody even a tank when they start nuking them from range especially if there are hard interrupts which render them all but worthless once a tank reaches them. OTOH 2 shotting opposing casters like sometimes happened when a high rank TOAed-out wizard used his 2 fire bolts and scored lucky crits is too much.

I think the TTK thing is an important point.

Before TOA, the battles hat some more depth and tactic. When somebody attacks you from range, you must have a chance to react on this attack. If a ranged DD char kills another one in 2 or 3 shots within 3-5 seconds, there is barely a chance to counter that attack. Imho, TTK should not (or rarely) go below 10 seconds.

btw... a longer battle does not mean, it is a slow battle.

 

For the interupts.. yes, but a trainable skill like concentration (on D&D games), that gives you a chance to ignore the interrupt, could be a good idea. (might be worth a try in beta).

Another interesting idea could be "spell chains" (similar to the idea of the thread opener). You start to cast a basic spell and then you can optionally add another element to that spell (that adds an additional effect) and then another  and another...

Some special spell chains could create complete new effects.  (... but maybe thats a shit idea in reality then.  )

fanglo

The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

evil13

While I somewhat disliked the way daoc's interupts worked, it made the game way more tactical and also kept the balance between melee and casters without making them basicaly the same thing with different deliveries.

 

In wow, if a caster outgears a melee they can just nuke them down completely ignoring what the melee does. The multitude of insta cast spells also doesn't really help.

In daoc you actually had to kite melee (especially in groups) and you cared about positioning, since it was the difference between being able to cast and only having your quickcast (1 uninteruptable cast on 20s timer) before being useless. in wow you can just hope around and spam insta casts, plus with wow's insane damage people die so fast it barely event maters what you do.

 

Plus, you also need daoc interupts for a group to fight against zerg, otherwise you get wow scenario where 5 shamans hit you with an insta cast shock and you die without being able to do squat.

morfidon

Originally posted by evil13

While I somewhat disliked the way daoc's interupts worked, it made the game way more tactical and also kept the balance between melee and casters without making them basicaly the same thing with different deliveries.

 

In wow, if a caster outgears a melee they can just nuke them down completely ignoring what the melee does. The multitude of insta cast spells also doesn't really help.

In daoc you actually had to kite melee (especially in groups) and you cared about positioning, since it was the difference between being able to cast and only having your quickcast (1 uninteruptable cast on 20s timer) before being useless. in wow you can just hope around and spam insta casts, plus with wow's insane damage people die so fast it barely event maters what you do.

 

Plus, you also need daoc interupts for a group to fight against zerg, otherwise you get wow scenario where 5 shamans hit you with an insta cast shock and you die without being able to do squat.

Exaclty very good arguments! Sometimes the thing you don't like might be the best things for the whole game. Interrupts gives tactics and it's not mindless spamming buttons like in all other new mmos.

MightyPit

I think, the all or nothing interrupt is kind of outdated. Better way would be to set back the casting time by 50% or something like that. If the cast is not 50% prepared when the interrupt hits, the cast is cancelled. This should be able to tweak by abilities (interrupt resistance). Projectiles should be blockable. Instant non projectiles should have low damage or high recast timer.

Casters should have the feeling of power while other classes should not feel that casters are op.

Casters from walls should be able to hit the siege armies. Battlements which hinder the casters to hit the attackers are annoying. The attackers should be able to use covers against those casters, like big shields which can break under heavy fire from mentioned casters.

 

Just some thoughts from me.

Vargur

Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Vargur

Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

ToA was exactly the problem lol. It added +stat caps, thus xx more Dex, and 10% casting speed ( remember when it was 25% lOLol ).

In the daoc interupt system, 10% casting speed was far more powerful / game changing then 10% melee speed... Turned the game into more caster focused, not saying melee couldn't compete because they did and we ran many melee setups post ToA, but it was only because of the hard intertupt system that melee/casters were balanced.

Vargur

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Vargur

Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

ToA was exactly the problem lol. It added +stat caps, thus xx more Dex, and 10% casting speed ( remember when it was 25% lOLol ).

In the daoc interupt system, 10% casting speed was far more powerful / game changing then 10% melee speed... Turned the game into more caster focused, not saying melee couldn't compete because they did and we ran many melee setups post ToA, but it was only because of the hard intertupt system that melee/casters were balanced.

10% casting speed shouldn't have made as much of a difference as buffs, but certainly didn't help the situation. 25% was just rediculous, and thankfully reduced. Also, melee had a hard cap on how quick one could swing (think it was 1.5 seconds), so if you used quick weapons you might gain nothing from the ToA bonuses. There was for some reason no hard cap on casting speed which led to the crazy casting speeds.

 

Niix_Ozek

Exactly, but my point is buffs wern't the biggest factor after ToA, buffs got 25% better, but I believe you still could get more dex from over cap then you got from the better buffs ( not sure ), but better buffs / stat caps / 10% cast speed = casters casting too fast.

Game was best just before ToA miss it so much

naezgul

Originally posted by Vargur

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Vargur

Originally posted by fanglo
The problem with toa casters was the casting speed, not so much the damage on thE spells. It got to the point that you cast so fast it was almost like permanent moc. It was like everyone was a warlock lol. Also in daoc there were some spells you could insta cast on the go. Things like debuffs, ras, mls, item uses etc... Mostly these things were utility stuff and rarely did any damage.

The casting speed was indeed the problem, but I don't think the problem was entirely dependnt upon ToA. Buffs played a huge role as well, and is why casters gravitated towards the high-dex classes. Lurikeen, Kobold, Saracen/Inconnu, also had the benefit of being small and tougher to click to target, but this is a sidetrack to the discussion.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I want casters to be a viable class, but it can be a challenge to make them balanced.

 

As far as melee given some puny-damage interupt-ability, I guess it is possible, but that only works against snares, not mez/stuns (if these make their way into the game). I don't people mean giving tanks huge ranged damage, but more like something that helps with the interrupts. The problem is that casters quickly and easily gets locked down, and that will hurt the balance.

ToA was exactly the problem lol. It added +stat caps, thus xx more Dex, and 10% casting speed ( remember when it was 25% lOLol ).

In the daoc interupt system, 10% casting speed was far more powerful / game changing then 10% melee speed... Turned the game into more caster focused, not saying melee couldn't compete because they did and we ran many melee setups post ToA, but it was only because of the hard intertupt system that melee/casters were balanced.

10% casting speed shouldn't have made as much of a difference as buffs, but certainly didn't help the situation. 25% was just rediculous, and thankfully reduced. Also, melee had a hard cap on how quick one could swing (think it was 1.5 seconds), so if you used quick weapons you might gain nothing from the ToA bonuses. There was for some reason no hard cap on casting speed which led to the crazy casting speeds.

 

Sure you did...you got the slowest weapon you could that would cap at 1.5 second and increase your damage