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"Leveling ties us to the world MORE THAN ANYTHING"
Kushkut
Member Posts: 8
Came across today's article on TESO leveling and it made me yet a little bit more depressed about the whole AAA MMO industry once again. Here's the article if you didn't get the chance to read it yet:
What struck me the most were the first lines of the write-up:
"Leveling up your character and building him or her through a game is one of the most important elements in MMOs. It’s what ties us to the world, more than anything. Elder Scrolls Online has fused the best possible systems from both MMOs and the Elder Scrolls RPGs to make progression fun and interesting."
I know that the subject of "End Game" or "Content Skipping" has been grinded to death, but why does it have to be either black or white?
Am I honestly the only one who could not care less about the endless stream of quests where you have to deliver X item to Y zone or kill Z amount of the same mobs zone after zone? I can understand that the progression from point A to point B (let's use levels, 1 to 50 as an example) makes the players "ready" for end game and enables them to learn their characters. But who takes several days or even weeks (of playing time!) to sufficiently handle their shit? Storyline is different, if all quests/missions related to the actual story, the whole process would feel a lot less forced.
And what goes for "content skipping", why is "leveling" still the most invested part of today's major MMORPGS? Why don't storylines enable players to get briefly acquainted with their characters before releasing them to the actual content which happens when you are able to interact with the majority of the other people? Why is there such a huge cap between "content" and "end game" (jesus I hate those words)? Most of the people I interact with usually fast "grind" to cap and I know we are not the only ones in order to get in the actual gameplay. Shit loads of resources (time and money) spent on awesome content creation which is only used to the fullest by a potentially small group? (Think SWTOR, a MASSIVE amount of cash used on voice actors only to realize the game is fucking bad when you hit max level.)
Another thing that upsets me with the current direction MMORPGS are evolving to is the amount of resources wasted on zones that are deserted pretty much right after the launch. Why do you spend days, weeks or even months modelling regions that players only use for a couple of hours?
This experience comes from a set of different games such as Fallen Earth, SWTOR, WoW, Rift and Aion.
PS. I also despise the fact that when you are a young player or "level 1" you can't kill a pet pig with 200 fist strikes. But when you are max level you one shot a fucking dragon. Why such a cap?
TLDR: I am whining about MMORPGS using too much resources on "content" that is not used to the fullest or even efficiently in most cases.
Comments
I"m going by just what you wrote here, I did not yet read the article or have I really investigated TESO.
However leveling does not mean class levels. Skills is also levelling. Horizontal progression is also levelling, just not vertically.
Any form of progression is basically a level in some shape or form.
Levelling doesn't mean quests. Levelling doesn't mean end game.
Levelling just mean progression. And IMO they are right, progession is the best way to tie you to your character and the world.
Everything you wrote is specifically aimed at class levelling, which is only one of several types.
And that is why the people making TESO are making it based on their idea created 13 years ago that the industry abandoned due to its piss poor design.
They still think its good, because they have not grown, or learned anything over the years....something that cant even be said about people that have proved over time they are not very good at game making yet still somehow manage to come up with games nothing like their previous work.
Its actually kind of sad. Even more so because the genre is played by a great many people that are more than willing to just keep forking over money without ever learning or DEMANDING a higher quality product. In fact, many of them will fight tooth and nail in defense of such a thing while at the same time ranting and raving about it with products already released and go on and on about how they got burned yet again.
Which MAJOR MMORPG has purely skill based progression and levels are not involved in any way?
And skill based progression very often is just another form of the same old shit: repetition times boredom.
My point is, why do I feel like I have to suffer a punishment (leveling, grinding, whatever you want to call it) before I can play the game I want? And usually then it disappoints the living shit out of me.
Nay sir. I want to play the game for years like I did with Ultima Online. Those were the days when you could actually call dungeons "dungeons".When gaining levels take time and mobs are challenging enough to make you seek improvements to your gear, then the 'leveling process' becomes the actual game and not some extended tutorial as it is in most MMOs today.
That's the thing that is so wrong in these modern MMOs.
How is what you said different than what I said.
Class leveling is only one form of progression.
ALL progression involves level in some form or another. skills, class, gear, horizontal... it is all progression, it all involves levels. There is no way to escape having progression without having levels, and progression is the best way to tie your character to the world.
UO had guess what, skill levels.
Maybe you just don't want progression?
I think I got your point now but why are you talking about progression in general? They are talking about the "leveling from level 1 to cap" and I am too.
What do you expect?
You have leveling in the original TES game, why would you expect a MMO version to be very different?
They are not making a totally new IP MMO. They are making TES MMO .. so obviously it is going to be like an elder scroll game with other people.
lol...no.
In TES if you hit level 2, so do the mobs...everywhere making 100% of the content 100% viable 100% of the time.
In TES you can max out ALL crafting skills to max, in this game you cant, you can only max 2.
In TES you can max out ALL combat/magic skills, so far, no word on skill point limits.
In TES you can go anywhere in the game world any time you want (story limits are outside the main world)...plain to see that you cant in this one.
In TES you can be any race and join any faction with it, and in some...switch sides....not here...not even close.
In TES Elves are freaking alienbutt ugly...in this, they are beautiful.
The game isnt even sticking to lore!
TESO isnt for TES fans, its for DaoC fans and there is a TON more outrage on the offical TES forums and mod sites about the new details, the only announcement made the last two days that got any love was the 1st person announcement and the HOPE that classes are not going to be limited with skill points thats going to take away any real sense of character class freedom and make it nothing short of a lame attempt at freedom only to lock people into limited rolls anyway.
Levels come to an end. Hence the orgin of "Endgame". Most players realized this later on in their MMO gaming. That endgame players have more freedom than low levels. In wow for example. Would you rather be level 10 or level 30? Nether is endgame, yet one is still better at having fun than the other due to the freedom a level 30 has over a level 10.
As the gap goes up this becomes more obvious .
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
No reason you can't implement change and fix areas of gaming that are completely useless or superficial and make them meaningful or heck,how about FUN even?Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As far as TESO goes they have some good ideas. One is having a max level version of all the dungeons. Second is that there are skill points for all 15, or so, skill trees per character. It seems like it will take you a while past level cap to get all of them. That's an alternative "leveling" of some sort at least.
And you know what? this is 100% correct. Its a very large reason why a game like Rift has abysmal retention. Everquest wasnt a success because people loved the endgame, they were hooked long before they got there.
And the exact same thing applies to WoW. WoW was seen as fast leveling when it was released. But think about this: Right before BC released the fastest time to go from 1-60, by people that had perfect the run, chose the best exp paths and quests possible, basically did studies on how to level as efficiently as possible...that time was still over 6 days /played.
People in games like Rift and SWTOR were hitting level cap within 2 days of release
People were hooked on WoW before they hit the endgame (which wasnt much at all during vanilla)
With these ultra fast leveling games, people arent hooked by endgame. Games like SWTOR and Rift also suffer from a lousy game world(s) compared to norrath or Azeroth, but that goes with the dev philosophy that leveling is a chore so get it done fast. It really is a combo of meaningful leveling pace along with interesting world. And given TES track record I would expect the game world to be pretty damn good.
Leveling ties us to the the game world? since when? In any game in any genre that has ever existed the experiences you have in the game is what ties you to the game (or not depending on if what you experienced was good in your mind or not).
In MMOs leveling does not tie you to the MMO or its world, to say something like this is mind numbingly stupid and for anyone in the games industry it is even worse to say this. What ties you to an MMO is first and foremost the community of the MMO and how it interacts with the MMO thus creating scenarios outside the bounds of the original game and offering up experiences which you as a player find interesting and engaging. Case and point when I was 14 I played World of Warcraft Vanilla on the official servers, it was a massive pain to find something to related to in the game but one day I bumped into a gnome mage (I played a human mage back then) and we decided to help each other level up faster... over the next few weeks 3 more people joined up on our efforts to level up not via quests but via adventuring like complete noobs and let me tell you those 3-4 months we spent doing that are some of the most pleasant memories I've had in a proper MMO to date. For the same reason I love EVE Online, you can at any point say "sod it" to whatever you're doing, go out, find some noobs for example and just do some weird shit (like outfiting them for pvp combat and then jumping in a small frigate fleet into low sec for the lols).
The day any developer says "leveling is important in our MMO! because we believe it ties you to the game/world/universe!" is the day I know that MMO will flop hard and the day I decide not to touch it even if paid to do it.
I guess you missed out on the success of EQ and WoW (among others)Really, they said that? I figured they have leveling in order to deliver a sense of progression, something that fans of RPGs have seemed to enjoy for a very long time now.
I guess you missed out on where I said I played WoW back in the day
and I've talked to people who were rabid EQ or Lineage 2 fans.
Progression via levels is a clear reward for effort system which works but neither EQ nor WoW were games solely based on their leveling system, the leveling system was merely there to give the players structure and a clear cut goal to aspire to but in and of itself it was not the way in which the player was tied to the universe because if you get bored of leveling you quit, it's the experience you have while playing the game (be it while leveling, corpse running, etc) that either ties you to the game or makes you quit it eventually and a key part of this experience within MMOs are other players and how you relate to them. This is why most modern MMOs fail, because they focus too much on the goals and too little on the journey and the adventures one could have getting to those goals.
Agreed. I think a lot of people are also missing the point that MMORPG like TESO is also not JUST an mmo, it is also an rpg.In rpg you need progression to be considered rpg. Otherwise it is just an arcade game.
You're not the only one who couldn't care less, but that's probably irrelevant because that's not what they are talking about.
Your thread title is misleading. He does not say leveling ties us to the world more than anything. He says character development does.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And what game do you want? Keeping in mind rpg's tend to be about character building of some sort.
But besides that, "what game do you want?"
And can you be specific? Not just "I want a game that's fun" becvause it's difficult to discuss subjective criteria".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I would say the most important part of all games is the gameplay, with combat being the emphasis on most activity, that part of the gameplay should be the most important.
Both can be done good, or bad, both can suit certain preferences, and both are essential parts of an MMORPG. Now if you made a shooter or action game that wasn't much into character development, it may overlook that aspect, but it basically isn't an RPG anymore. If you don't like that element, your looking in the wrong genre, if you are just unsatisfied with the quality or kind of development being used, than you should specify that better.
They may be over emphasising character development. That doesn't mean they default fail at whatever else your interested in, so I would take a step back and just observe their endeavour. Your not gonna change their priorities by nit picking their specific articulation.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Progression =/= questing.
AoW, and EVE have questless progression.
You are basically agreeing with me (and the original quote) with your statement in red. They are equaiting 'leveling' to 'the journey'. Because they are interchangeable. Journey, leveling, character building, however you want to phrase it. The journey is what bonds you to the game world.
I have *never* seen leveling (or character building or journeying) as annoying in a good mmorpg. All the good ones are engaging from start to finish.