Originally posted by HeroEvermore By not needing to group it actually offers more to the anti-social. Especially in the case of GW2. In Rifts case it was the exact opposite. We had to party up for the end game rifts to be able to beat them so we were always grouped up.
So in other word Gw2 is anti socail but Rift is??
BTW nothing will stop you from grouping up in Gw2 and if you dont like it then dont play it better yet dont post here
Why exactly do I want to chat it up with you? Why is there this unwritten expectation that we need to try and form some sort of BFF thing? We're there to kill things (since 99% of the content is about killing stuff) and get loot.
Do you walk into your local coffee house, sit down at a strangers table, and start chatting them? I don't. I also don't appreciate when strangers come up and try that. Why would I do that in a game?
It amazes me that this post has gotten almost no discussion, because frankly it cuts to the heart of the matter.
In the old days gaming was in large measure dominated by a group -- call them nerds, geeks, whatever -- that tended to be socially ackward at best. Many of them, whether they realized it or not, had socail disabilities, most commonly difficulties percieving and/or interpreting social cues. In text-only environments those cues don't, by and large, exist, it levels the playing field. Online chat (IRC et al) and games were an environment where they were not only not at a disadvantage, but because of their familiarity and skill with the tools of that environment, they were often at an advantage. It didn't just make for a surrogate social life, in many instances it substituted entirely for a social life, and thus was very, very important.
Then the floodgates opened.
WoW didn't "ruin" the social atmosphere of MMOs, it just expanded the market to include, and eventually be dominated by, people who were more... Well, normal. People who had social lives and didn't need or want a surrogate online one. People who were no more worried about chatting up random group members than they would be about chatting up random strangers at a McDonalds.
They were there to blow shit up, collect some loot, enjoy themselves, and move on, not serve as a surrogate social life for themselves or anyone else.
It ain't gonna change, gaming isn't ever going back to the old days, the market isn't ever going to revolve around the socially ackward but technically gifted. It doesn't matter how you design the game, attempt to try and force people to be social and all you'll do is drive them away.
No matter how many times you try and replicate UO, DAoC, or whatever your rose-coloured-game-of-choice was, it won't work -- it wouldn't work even if the game had really been the nirvana you like to pretend it was. It's not a design issue, it'a a gaming isn't just about you anymore issue, and that's not going to change. You can learn to accept that, cherish your memories, and move on, or keep impotently beating your chest and getting more and more bitter and angry because random strangers won't do what you demand they should do.
Then again, I suppose this site wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't a haven for those who will inevitably choose, if it can even be said to be a choice for them anymore, the latter... So chest-beat away.
Why exactly do I want to chat it up with you? Why is there this unwritten expectation that we need to try and form some sort of BFF thing? We're there to kill things (since 99% of the content is about killing stuff) and get loot.
Do you walk into your local coffee house, sit down at a strangers table, and start chatting them? I don't. I also don't appreciate when strangers come up and try that. Why would I do that in a game?
It amazes me that this post has gotten almost no discussion, because frankly it cuts to the heart of the matter.
In the old days gaming was in large measure dominated by a group -- call them nerds, geeks, whatever -- that tended to be socially ackward at best. Many of them, whether they realized it or not, had socail disabilities, most commonly difficulties percieving and/or interpreting social cues. In text-only environments those cues don't, by and large, exist, it levels the playing field. Online chat (IRC et al) and games were an environment where they were not only not at a disadvantage, but because of their familiarity and skill with the tools of that environment, they were often at an advantage. It didn't just make for a surrogate social life, in many instances it substituted entirely for a social life, and thus was very, very important.
Then the floodgates opened.
WoW didn't "ruin" the social atmosphere of MMOs, it just expanded the market to include, and eventually be dominated by, people who were more... Well, normal. People who had social lives and didn't need or want a surrogate online one. People who were no more worried about chatting up random group members than they would be about chatting up random strangers at a McDonalds.
They were there to blow shit up, collect some loot, enjoy themselves, and move on, not serve as a surrogate social life for themselves or anyone else.
It ain't gonna change, gaming isn't ever going back to the old days, the market isn't ever going to revolve around the socially ackward but technically gifted. It doesn't matter how you design the game, attempt to try and force people to be social and all you'll do is drive them away.
No matter how many times you try and replicate UO, DAoC, or whatever your rose-coloured-game-of-choice was, it won't work -- it wouldn't work even if the game had really been the nirvana you like to pretend it was. It's not a design issue, it'a a gaming isn't just about you anymore issue, and that's not going to change. You can learn to accept that, cherish your memories, and move on, or keep impotently beating your chest and getting more and more bitter and angry because random strangers won't do what you demand they should do.
Then again, I suppose this site wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't a haven for those who will inevitably choose, if it can even be said to be a choice for them anymore, the latter... So chest-beat away.
I don't see how removing the need to be social makes gw2 a social mmo. Standing next to someone killing the same thing isn't my idea of being social. They removed the need to group so everyone can get involved. They also removed the need to talk to each other and you could feel it when you play.
You go from one event to the next and join the herd. you never, ever needed to talk to anyone for any reason.
That may improve the game play for the antisocial player but I dont' think it improved the social aspect of mmos.
From the few weeks, last year, I recall of playing GW2 before I carefully packed it away in my, "maybe one day, when every other MMO has gone to game heaven" drawer, I thought it was quite social - and in a much less 'intense' way than Rift. Not by forcing anyone to group up or to talk to each other directly but from being rewarded by joining in with events, reviving other players etc. Nothing new, I know, but the active rewards from doing that, and contributing, certainly encouraged more "thanks!" chatter, etc.
Group 2. I want a chocie not to have to group unless I am going to do a dungeon or major event.
Group 2s choice does not effect group 1 in anyway because they can still CHOOSE to group for every single thing in the game.
Group 1s choice however completely removes group 2s choice.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Group 2. I want a chocie not to have to group unless I am going to do a dungeon or major event.
Group 2s choice does not effect group 1 in anyway because they can still CHOOSE to group for every single thing in the game.
Group 1s choice however completely removes group 2s choice.
Actually, this is false.
If you have a solo focused game design than that is no different than having forced soloing.
Anyone with any real experience of these games knows that if you fill your game full of solo classes and make all the content solable then all you will get for the most part is a self perpertuating playerbase of soloers.... Good luck in building a group as a grouper in all that. After hours of trying you are *forced* to solo and my choice to group has been removed because there isn't a workable pool of players to pull from.
The list of personality/ social traits a solo focused MMO no longer requires are a terrible loss to games that happens in a public space
But so does interdependency, which group focused design is a potentiol part of.
There is a huge section of the player base that enjoys co-op environmental play and just dosen't get their kicks from grinding someone else's nose into the dirt. What about them?
"Games like Guild Wars 2 are not necessarily more social, but they’re differently social. They attempt to make things easier to play, accessible, and fun, but also bridge the gap in an age of voice chat and lightning-fast leveling speed"
I think the OP is too in love with the MMO flavour of the year GW2. There has been a decline in players interacting let alone social activity on MMO's since they first came out.
Players selling goods and creating an immense amount of social interation turned into Auction houses. One AH which at least created a social hub turned into mutliple ones all over the game. In GW2 you do not have to even be near a trading post to trade unless picking up items. So GW2 turned trading into an activity where you do not even having to be somewhere where other players are when you trade. For GW3 the AH will just be a UI panel, no trading post, zero player interaction. Thats just one example of how MMO's are becoming so designed for solo players calling it a MMO is a joke.
Again you dont get it, Adding or not Adding AH wont make a diffrence (in WoW you have to go to AH to post things and that didnt make any diffrence). see the comment above yours and you will get the idae of why this is happening.
If you want to be socail nothing will stop you, because its as simple as saying HI
In a game you need a reason for people to be social, it is not just going to happen by itself, come on. Old MMO's had a better structure to encourage interaction and having a chat. Log into your MMO today and and go round saying "Hi" to everyone, see how that goes down.
As to why we need to interact, gaming is better for it, there is more to MMO's than hack and slash.
Why exactly do I want to chat it up with you? Why is there this unwritten expectation that we need to try and form some sort of BFF thing? We're there to kill things (since 99% of the content is about killing stuff) and get loot.
Do you walk into your local coffee house, sit down at a strangers table, and start chatting them? I don't. I also don't appreciate when strangers come up and try that. Why would I do that in a game?
It amazes me that this post has gotten almost no discussion, because frankly it cuts to the heart of the matter.
In the old days gaming was in large measure dominated by a group -- call them nerds, geeks, whatever -- that tended to be socially ackward at best. Many of them, whether they realized it or not, had socail disabilities, most commonly difficulties percieving and/or interpreting social cues. In text-only environments those cues don't, by and large, exist, it levels the playing field. Online chat (IRC et al) and games were an environment where they were not only not at a disadvantage, but because of their familiarity and skill with the tools of that environment, they were often at an advantage. It didn't just make for a surrogate social life, in many instances it substituted entirely for a social life, and thus was very, very important.
Then the floodgates opened.
WoW didn't "ruin" the social atmosphere of MMOs, it just expanded the market to include, and eventually be dominated by, people who were more... Well, normal. People who had social lives and didn't need or want a surrogate online one. People who were no more worried about chatting up random group members than they would be about chatting up random strangers at a McDonalds.
They were there to blow shit up, collect some loot, enjoy themselves, and move on, not serve as a surrogate social life for themselves or anyone else.
It ain't gonna change, gaming isn't ever going back to the old days, the market isn't ever going to revolve around the socially ackward but technically gifted. It doesn't matter how you design the game, attempt to try and force people to be social and all you'll do is drive them away.
No matter how many times you try and replicate UO, DAoC, or whatever your rose-coloured-game-of-choice was, it won't work -- it wouldn't work even if the game had really been the nirvana you like to pretend it was. It's not a design issue, it'a a gaming isn't just about you anymore issue, and that's not going to change. You can learn to accept that, cherish your memories, and move on, or keep impotently beating your chest and getting more and more bitter and angry because random strangers won't do what you demand they should do.
Then again, I suppose this site wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't a haven for those who will inevitably choose, if it can even be said to be a choice for them anymore, the latter... So chest-beat away.
There's a lot of truth to this, I think. It's hard to read because I'm one of those people who used to live in MMORPGs. I definitely miss it, but things are different now, and *I* am different now. I couldn't do it again even if I traveled back in time to AC and AO. Now I have just as much in common with the "new" as I do with the "old". This is why I tend to seek out very difficult games (often with perma-death) that give very strong incentives to group and be social just to progress.
For a game to allow for social interactions, it needs to allow the time to be social. Old mmorpgs had alot of downtime, which have been cleaned out of games now in the name of optimized game experience and removing "boring" parts. Downtime were used to socialize on whatever levels people wanted, some discussed random topics and others more strickly roleplaying.
Yes downtime were boring in a way, and I guess no one in their right mind want to re-introduce downtime. The trick modern games could use to re-introduce socializing, could be to make game mechanics that allows taking a break, a breather at any time without the fear of "missing out". It is important that your character is not constantly paced forward or forced to make decisions without having initiated such. An example of this could be random mob aggro, timed quests, having to focus during travel - When you wait for others you can talk/type.
Other means of "downtime" or forced socializing, is to have bargain systems instead of automated auction halls, having to meet face to face to exchange stuff or trade, and more. The possibilities are at hand, and it doesn't have to be the oldschool "boring" downtime systems.
Indeed I am not saying we must go back to old school gameplay to make MMO's social again. But if you do not replace that gameplay with something else that gives players the opportunity and incentive to interact, modern MMO's will remain the ghost ships that they are today. Crewed with fleeting glimpses of other players who you never talk to.
Great article. Cooperation definitely puts gaming in a different light. The first internet users were intuitive, often self taught and well educated individuals who depended on self research, and a vision that shaped the internet to what it is today. The same thopics learned in college today were day to day norms for said individuals. They may have been awkward, but it was their intention to create an environment which could hold their own social norm. The floodgates were open to anyone and this includes those who have no regard for the people next to them. I'd call having no manners or regard for the person next to you as a far bigger problem to many internet users.
Not only have I had strangers talk to me during events, I've had them roleplay with me at random! So don't say its not social, you have to make some effort you know. The game shouldn't have to force people to talk.
Now that’s another issue, personal effort versus imposed chatting. Roleplayers do take up the gauntlet; they will not allow the rubbish level of interaction you get in today’s MMO's to stop them. But they do this by forming guilds, doing their own thing, they can't turn servers around. Random roleplay like the last poster talked about is dying out or has died in most MMO's.
If you talk to Roleplayers you will find the baulk of them think MMO's have deserted them, they are last on the list when it comes to design priorities.
But for the average player, the one who will socialise but does not roleplay, they seem to have just accepted that MMO’s are now solo games and play them as such.
These games have the appearance of being more social, but it's nothing more than that. It's very different from the actual social interaction and player interrelationships that were required in older games.
GW2 and RIFT are games that you play AROUND other players, not WITH other players. There's a big difference.
I hate using this word, but the social interactions of GW2 feel more organic. Let's face it, in real life you don't just walk up to some randy and ask them to hang out together (maybe some do, but that isn't common).
Often times, relationships are built through common interactions and then, once comfort is established, it proceeds into deeper familiarity and involvement. In that way GW2 is succeeding in becoming natural.
I see a lot of praise for the article. I won't say it's not deserved, as I'm not going to take time to read more than the blurb that says "GW2 and Rift are bringing old school gaming back" because nothing has made me want to spasm-puke all over my monitor than that ludicrous statement. As far as anti-social gaming goes, nothing has been worse than GW2. Nothing. It is the epitome of what's wrong with MMOs today.
For a game to allow for social interactions, it needs to allow the time to be social.
And this is why our guild in Rift especially but also in GW2 were less social than any other games we played together. Everyone was too busy, with constant events and mobs every few feet, there was just very little time to pause to chat. We are a social guild at heart and didn't last long in either game.
"Social" to me is friendly interactions and features that boost that, like meaningful crafting, casual grouping opportunities, housing, music systems.
Sorry, but none of the shiny new "public events" help at all to return us to the days where there was a sense of community. To be social, people actually have to socialize... which requires communication, which in turn requires honest-to-goodness words (spoken or typed).
If anything, these public events have the opposite effect, by allowing harder goals to be accomplished without ever having to COMMUNICATE with anyone else. Honestly I'm surprised WoW didn't think of it first... let players take down group content without a group, and call it a "social feature". Idiocy.
Give me back my mmorpg please... I want to spend two weeks with my guild trying to get my mythical weapon questline done again. (and that's using internet quest walk-throughs ffs) In most NEW mmorpg I can hit the level-cap and pretend there is "end-game content" in those same two weeks. Oh how I miss having content in my mmorpg.
Comments
So in other word Gw2 is anti socail but Rift is??
BTW nothing will stop you from grouping up in Gw2 and if you dont like it then dont play it better yet dont post here
It amazes me that this post has gotten almost no discussion, because frankly it cuts to the heart of the matter.
In the old days gaming was in large measure dominated by a group -- call them nerds, geeks, whatever -- that tended to be socially ackward at best. Many of them, whether they realized it or not, had socail disabilities, most commonly difficulties percieving and/or interpreting social cues. In text-only environments those cues don't, by and large, exist, it levels the playing field. Online chat (IRC et al) and games were an environment where they were not only not at a disadvantage, but because of their familiarity and skill with the tools of that environment, they were often at an advantage. It didn't just make for a surrogate social life, in many instances it substituted entirely for a social life, and thus was very, very important.
Then the floodgates opened.
WoW didn't "ruin" the social atmosphere of MMOs, it just expanded the market to include, and eventually be dominated by, people who were more... Well, normal. People who had social lives and didn't need or want a surrogate online one. People who were no more worried about chatting up random group members than they would be about chatting up random strangers at a McDonalds.
They were there to blow shit up, collect some loot, enjoy themselves, and move on, not serve as a surrogate social life for themselves or anyone else.
It ain't gonna change, gaming isn't ever going back to the old days, the market isn't ever going to revolve around the socially ackward but technically gifted. It doesn't matter how you design the game, attempt to try and force people to be social and all you'll do is drive them away.
No matter how many times you try and replicate UO, DAoC, or whatever your rose-coloured-game-of-choice was, it won't work -- it wouldn't work even if the game had really been the nirvana you like to pretend it was. It's not a design issue, it'a a gaming isn't just about you anymore issue, and that's not going to change. You can learn to accept that, cherish your memories, and move on, or keep impotently beating your chest and getting more and more bitter and angry because random strangers won't do what you demand they should do.
Then again, I suppose this site wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't a haven for those who will inevitably choose, if it can even be said to be a choice for them anymore, the latter... So chest-beat away.
you made me sad i discussed his post
Cooperation shouldn't be confused with Socialization.
my freind you deserve a
and i rarly put this emotion
From the few weeks, last year, I recall of playing GW2 before I carefully packed it away in my, "maybe one day, when every other MMO has gone to game heaven" drawer, I thought it was quite social - and in a much less 'intense' way than Rift. Not by forcing anyone to group up or to talk to each other directly but from being rewarded by joining in with events, reviving other players etc. Nothing new, I know, but the active rewards from doing that, and contributing, certainly encouraged more "thanks!" chatter, etc.
I see this entire argument boiling down to this.
Group 1. I want FORCED grouping from lvl 1.
Group 2. I want a chocie not to have to group unless I am going to do a dungeon or major event.
Group 2s choice does not effect group 1 in anyway because they can still CHOOSE to group for every single thing in the game.
Group 1s choice however completely removes group 2s choice.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Actually, this is false.
If you have a solo focused game design than that is no different than having forced soloing.
Anyone with any real experience of these games knows that if you fill your game full of solo classes and make all the content solable then all you will get for the most part is a self perpertuating playerbase of soloers.... Good luck in building a group as a grouper in all that. After hours of trying you are *forced* to solo and my choice to group has been removed because there isn't a workable pool of players to pull from.
The list of personality/ social traits a solo focused MMO no longer requires are a terrible loss to games that happens in a public space
In a game you need a reason for people to be social, it is not just going to happen by itself, come on. Old MMO's had a better structure to encourage interaction and having a chat. Log into your MMO today and and go round saying "Hi" to everyone, see how that goes down.
As to why we need to interact, gaming is better for it, there is more to MMO's than hack and slash.
There's a lot of truth to this, I think. It's hard to read because I'm one of those people who used to live in MMORPGs. I definitely miss it, but things are different now, and *I* am different now. I couldn't do it again even if I traveled back in time to AC and AO. Now I have just as much in common with the "new" as I do with the "old". This is why I tend to seek out very difficult games (often with perma-death) that give very strong incentives to group and be social just to progress.
For a game to allow for social interactions, it needs to allow the time to be social. Old mmorpgs had alot of downtime, which have been cleaned out of games now in the name of optimized game experience and removing "boring" parts. Downtime were used to socialize on whatever levels people wanted, some discussed random topics and others more strickly roleplaying.
Yes downtime were boring in a way, and I guess no one in their right mind want to re-introduce downtime. The trick modern games could use to re-introduce socializing, could be to make game mechanics that allows taking a break, a breather at any time without the fear of "missing out". It is important that your character is not constantly paced forward or forced to make decisions without having initiated such. An example of this could be random mob aggro, timed quests, having to focus during travel - When you wait for others you can talk/type.
Other means of "downtime" or forced socializing, is to have bargain systems instead of automated auction halls, having to meet face to face to exchange stuff or trade, and more. The possibilities are at hand, and it doesn't have to be the oldschool "boring" downtime systems.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Now that’s another issue, personal effort versus imposed chatting. Roleplayers do take up the gauntlet; they will not allow the rubbish level of interaction you get in today’s MMO's to stop them. But they do this by forming guilds, doing their own thing, they can't turn servers around. Random roleplay like the last poster talked about is dying out or has died in most MMO's.
If you talk to Roleplayers you will find the baulk of them think MMO's have deserted them, they are last on the list when it comes to design priorities.
But for the average player, the one who will socialise but does not roleplay, they seem to have just accepted that MMO’s are now solo games and play them as such.
This nuff said.
I hate using this word, but the social interactions of GW2 feel more organic. Let's face it, in real life you don't just walk up to some randy and ask them to hang out together (maybe some do, but that isn't common).
Often times, relationships are built through common interactions and then, once comfort is established, it proceeds into deeper familiarity and involvement. In that way GW2 is succeeding in becoming natural.
PS: Well written article Christina.
And this is why our guild in Rift especially but also in GW2 were less social than any other games we played together. Everyone was too busy, with constant events and mobs every few feet, there was just very little time to pause to chat. We are a social guild at heart and didn't last long in either game.
"Social" to me is friendly interactions and features that boost that, like meaningful crafting, casual grouping opportunities, housing, music systems.
Sorry, but none of the shiny new "public events" help at all to return us to the days where there was a sense of community. To be social, people actually have to socialize... which requires communication, which in turn requires honest-to-goodness words (spoken or typed).
If anything, these public events have the opposite effect, by allowing harder goals to be accomplished without ever having to COMMUNICATE with anyone else. Honestly I'm surprised WoW didn't think of it first... let players take down group content without a group, and call it a "social feature". Idiocy.
Give me back my mmorpg please... I want to spend two weeks with my guild trying to get my mythical weapon questline done again. (and that's using internet quest walk-throughs ffs) In most NEW mmorpg I can hit the level-cap and pretend there is "end-game content" in those same two weeks. Oh how I miss having content in my mmorpg.