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Richard Garriot's new game and his method of paying for development
HappyFunBall
Member UncommonPosts: 221
If you don't know Richard Garriot, you must be a lot younger than I am, or have never played any Ultima game.
I grew up playing the Ultima games he created and LOVED them. I played UO for years. It's STILL the best sandbox there is, and still going after what, 15 years??? Everything out there now is B or C level garbage (for sandboxes), or AAA cookie cutter themepark games. No adventure, no exploring, only ONE main way to get things done, when it really comes down to it.
So, I hear about The Shroud of the Avatar. I was PSYCHED. It's a game that is going to bring back all the things I, and countless other Ultima fans loved about the Ultima series.
Here's one of the web sites for it:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/portalarium/shroud-of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0
I saw this and could not believe it. I don't mean that in a good way. They are literally asking people to pledge money to develop this game...They are also selling more of those ridiculous founder packs, for a game that won't even be done for 2 years, or even more. Sure, by all means, I'll pay you $300 for virtual items, a cloth map, etc, for VAPORWARE, and if it does get made, it's at least 2 years away, and I don't even know I'm going to like it. I can't even try an alpha or beta first?? Imagine putting a downpayment of a car, a house, etc, that you haven't even SEEN yet, or is not even created yet? Who would do that?
I mean, this guy FLEW IN SPACE. He can afford to do that, but can't afford to get funding for his new game, the way just about ALL other companies do, not just gaming companies.
This trend for asking customers to pay for development is HORRIBLE, let alone ridiculous.
I can't be the only one who feels this way.
Is this what MMO game development has come to now?
First they wanted $1 MILLION just to decide if they could or could not even make the game. Then for $1.1 MILLION, they're going to add pets. YAY, for the $100,000 we all get to pay, we just get to have pets!!! After the third milestone (check the website), they don't even know what the next (4th) milestones is, let alone the rest of them. OUCH. That's the biggest red flag I've ever seen.
I wonder if I'm ever going to play a AAA sandbox title ever again. Every one of them out there now is TERRIBLE. They can't hold a candle to UO and what you could do with it. They just attract griefers. They are infurating to play, if you can get past the terrible graphics, controls, UI, bugs, lack of polish, unimplemented features/non-functional features, etc.
These are sad days for sandboxes, or just for any MMO that you can start, and run off in ANY direction you want, and start exploring, building your character, etc. I've tried *every* sandbox that exists now, and most feel like they were made my a few HS or college students for a class project.
Yikes.
Comments
i agree - the pet feature doesnt thrill me
from KS site:
Pets! Both social and combat pets will be added to the game which players can control using simple commands.
EQ2 fan sites
Many developers go indie to avoid corporate entanglements of the developers game vision. By seeking your funding source directly from the players, you avoid having your idea messed with to the point of game failure.
Many claim that Tabula Rasa's failure had less to do with Garriott than with the corporate meddling. Then the game failed and shut down. It may even be that AAA studios won't give him a decent contract - and from Garriott's perspective, it is all because of their f'ing with the game.
There are several articles out there discussing the trend of major devs going indie. Another prominent dev in this catagory is Mark Jacobs. After WAR's failure, many suspect due to corporate interference, Mark has gone indie for Camelot Unchained.
It may be hard for Garriott to get a lot of creative control if the industry would even contract him again, but if he could, the real question is, would you really want him to?
If you don't have faith in the project - don't pledge.
personally i have no idea where the blame lies for TR
-- but Garriott planning for Space during game development didnt help TR at all
Sep 2007
http://www.gamespy.com/pc/tabula-rasa/823579p1.html
According to a press release issued today, Garriott is planning on flying to the International Space Station with the assistance of a commercial rocket owned by Space Adventures, a civilian space flight corporation dedicated to the commerical development of outer space.
EQ2 fan sites
Well.. basicly because they are made from a few college students, without any funds and without any experience in making games. And because of that, it is not really a big surprise that most of them look like it, and feel like it and can never catch the quality of a AAA production. Making games is expensive, and even more making games requires experience, because you can make a lot of failures early on, which can be not so easily undone, if at all.
Why is that so? Well.. no publisher invests a lot of money in a sandbox game, or better said in a highly risky and very expensive project no outcome is guaranteed.. they invest a lot more in another WoW clone, or even more likely and a rather low cost mobile/facebook project... a lot more revenue is to expected.. not a good game, but revenue. And that is it what investers looking for, they dont look for a gaming milestone, they look for a very good revenue.. they look for another farmville.
And because of that, and for a lot of other good reasons for both sides(investors and veteran developer) some projects will not get so easily funded in a competive business. And therefore crowdfunding and kickstarter projects become popular, because it is a way for game designer/developer to make that particular game they want to make with out a lot of constraints and at least some basic funding. (and for mmo development a few million is just basic funding.. AAA mmos cost 10 of millions or even 100 million to develop)
And potential player can invest in such projects to help to get games they want to play, but will not be produced from any publisher, like sandbox mmos or other games like 2D adventures as example. So this can be a win win situation.
On the other side other ppl see the options to make a game, to live the dream(making games), but have no idea whatsoever of making games. They may have basic ideas what ppl look for in a game, but they have no idea how to accomplish it, or how to develop it. And some ppl will invest in that and after a few years will be heavily disappointed nothing of worth come out if it. And honestly every kickstarter project, which looks for funding of a mmo and just want a few hundred thousand or less is doomed to fail. Because seriously, i know, you cant make a lot out of that money, and if you look at the biography of some of those ppl, you can clearly see they dont have a lot of experience of doing so. But after all, whoever invest in such projects take that risk, and with a little bit more research would know how much to expect from it.
So finally i will say that. Kickstarter projects or crowdfunding is a good way to get more independet games, but nevertheless not every kickstarter project will be a success or even a playable game. If you invest in such a project it is your homework to research, who tries to accomplish what, and if they are capable of doing so.
But also a lot of veteran designers jump on the bandwagon to create a game with full creative control of it. And if you ask me, i believe in there experience to making games. So it really is a difference if Peter Molyneux, Chris Roberts, Richard Garriott and other veteran game designer asking for money and have a vision for a game, or some random guy with no experience at all. And if you look closely you see, that they usually ask for more money to make a game, because basicly they know how expensive it is to acutally accomplish such a project.
With other words, if a like the idea of another Richard Garriott MMO with the features he tries to accomplish, a can easily fund, and it is not a lot more the preordering GW2 6 month before release. I give them my money, because i belive they are capable of delivering. And after all it is my money, right? But everyone have to make that decision for himself. And if you dont invest in crowdfunding project it is ok, too. But pls, then dont complain that major publisher dont develop a game of a certain genre you enjoyed, but has not come out since years
I could have been a little more clear - whatever the actual causes of TR's fall - a guy who plans a private space trip strikes me as someone with an ego, and as such, I very much doubt he takes any personal blame for TR's fall.
I'm still personally excited about this trend, I hope we get some edgier games from it. I feel my 5$ I spent on Path of Exile was well worth it. But I mostly I doubt I'll ever pay a dime, but still get better games. At least I hope.
@OP, I feel the same way you do. I was excited to hear that Garriot was making a new game and subscribed to his email news letter. Received my first email telling me about the game and kickstarter.
Visited the kickstarter page and saw that he was basically selling in game real estate. I was very disappointed and found it a little distasteful. ( He basically placed himself on the level of the Greedmonger developers) I Immediately unsubscribed, and lost interest in this game.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/greed-monger-a-crafting-focused-sandbox-mmorpg
Unfortunately gamers longing for a good sandbox game seem to be the target for many developers. I recently compared us to the elderly folks in the 70s and 80s having to deal with the aluminum siding salemen
I learned my lesson a long time ago. Never donate, never pre-order etc:
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
@ OP guess what you dont have to back the game.. Kickstarter is awesome and will allow some games to get made that would never have seen the light of day.. due to most big publishers chashing after the WOW cash or the COD cash or whatever.. have you not noticed how over the last few years there has hardly been anything that was not a clone of WOW or COD or whatever..
Publishers and backers all think the only way to make money is to copy one of the games that did really well..
Richard Garriot has also puit quite a bit into this himself..
Now kickstarter has come along and we have had some really good looking games that have been backed on there.. its not somthing you have to do its a choice..
If you want to help get a game off the ground then back them.. if you dont then dont and wait for the game to get released.
I have backed a few games so far on there.. the ones to release have been FTL and chivalry and both games are great fun and may neverh ave existed if it was not for kickstarter.. so im glad i backed them. Also backed Pathof Exile on their site and Endless space.. both very very good games..
Also another big big bonus for using kickstarter or somthing similar is that the game designer can ahve full control of his game... he wont have publishers pushnig at him trying to make it more like wow.. or totally changing things around like what happened with TR.
Then you go off into complaining abotu MMORPGs that has nothnig to realyl do with Richards new game..
anyway as for AAA sandbox games..
Archeage is on its way and the new Everquest is going to be a sandbox.
Either way i dont really want to see AAA publishers donig sandbox games as they just wont do them right... Tho i do hope SOE gets it right..
Anyway at the end of the day its totally your choice... dont like backing games dont do it
As those wrote before me, many times it's best to let fans who are willing to help pay for development to avoid publisher harrassment and changing the idea of the game. This is a serious problem even today, and many games of the past were changed from their core and forced to be either a FPS or some such when their roots were in fact tactical RPGs. An example of this would be Shadowrun.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns?ref=live The first video
It's likely that Garriot has put millions of his own money on this games, in fact I'm seeing that in the questions and answers area, he has put roughly 5 million of his own money into its development ( rough estimate, as they say it would have to be a kickstarter record to get close to how much of his own money he put in). But that aside, why is it a bad thing if he wants to involve fans of the series, or those who still believe in his vision? Sure, he may be egotistical to some (if not most), and may have done some questionable things, but there are many sides to each story and no one can know everything about something.
If a fan has the money and wants to support the development of a game they think they may enjoy, let them do so. If this means that investors and publishers won't get their hands on it and ruin the vision, then all the better in my humble opinion. There is a debate if preordering or helping developers is a good thing. Most of it is by people who pass their viewpoints of facts on both sides, but the only truth we have here is that it's their money and they have the right to do so. If they have the vision, the faith, or to some, the foolishness to commit money, then they should be allowed to do so.
They are not suckers, they are not saints, but rather they are gamers; they believe in something the same as we may believe in something that others find drab. It's a community they form, and they help bring something that others not apart of that community may benefit from if they read that it's a good game and then opt to get it themselves. If people who were there from the beginning and put their money where their mouth was gets a few extras along the way, then all the better as it's well deserved. It's much like investing in stock the gamer way; invest early, if the stocks go up in some way (if the game is great) then there is a better payout.
In my opinion most of the hate stems from entitlement; someone thinks it's stupid to pledge money, and are upset they don't get the extras when the game finally comes out. Then there may be some that say it should've never been a thing. But that harkens back to my previous paragraphs, in that why shouldn't it be a thing? Everyone had the opportunity in some way, no one was barred in any meaninful fashion or prevented from such. It will just be one person dictating to another that they're stupid and they shouldn't of done such. But what type of person would do that, I wonder?
There is allot of truth in what you speak, most all developers capable of producing a AAA game are published and sometimes owned by a larger entity that in most cases is funding 80 percent of the game. And in most cases that publisher is a publicly traded company that has their own internal "experts" to provide input on how to make the most profitable product as possible. notice how I said profitable, and not creative, or fun, or innovative?
Unforrtunatly these experts are not really experts at gaming. Their job is to simply look at the last 5 or so top selling games in that genre or outside of it, and make sure the game their funding incorporates the features and or look and feel of those games. Thats why you see some of the latest retardo trends. Seems like every game these days has a water color layout for its menues, gee where did that come from. Games are using cartoony and comic book rendering styles in place of more realistc graphics, hmm seen that before.
The only way to have complete creative control is by self funding. Or I gaurentee every game out there will have GW2 water color menues and Diablo 3 graphics and color palets, everything you do will be automated except pushing a buttom to kill something and half the game will be cut scenes.
I'll have to dig around to find the quote but iirc Garriott said he'd never work with another publisher again after his experience with NCSoft.
I'm a game developer.
Kickstarter is a great platform.
Kickstarter gives power to gamers to choose what gets made. Otherwise it's corporate execs making the call. Do you trust corporate execs to greenlight the games you like?
I mean Kickstarter has some problems, like how gamers will back familiarity more than innovation (both in terms of who's making the game (familiar or otherwise) and the game itself.) And I think many software Kickstarter projects will end up not being organized well enough, and not achieve enough funding (even though they met their "goal") to make it to the final product.
But overall it's a great platform and I wish Garriott exactly as much success as his ideas deserve.
Kickstarter also provides a platform for genres which are provably not profitable, and therefore avoided. When everyone pays the same flat fee (standard business model,) these products are simply not viable. But when diehard fans are allowed to pay extra to make the idea a reality, many non-viable products become possible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gamers have no clue about implementation, project management, budgeting, and business stuff. They cannot judge whether a game is going to be made well, or finished being made at all.
And yes, i have no problem with exec greenlighting games because
a) i don't have to buy anything until i see the finished products, and decide if i like them. History indicates that this works very well for me. There are tons of games i like, greenlighted by execs, so i doubt that will change, and
b) if execs don't greenlight enough games that people like, they will have no jobs.
Not if he shows that he is not professional, and place his own personal business above his career. Do you really want to pay someone big bucks who spend most of his time planning his next space trip? I don't.
"Gamers have no clue about implementation, project management, budgeting, and business stuff. They cannot judge whether a game is going to be made well, or finished being made at all."
Nari this statement really doesn't seem to be based on recent reality, after all how many great funded projects just lacked at release? It seems to me the big boys lack vision and clarity and many seem just interested in making money over making a great game. Nothing wrong with them wanting to make money but it seems to interfer on getting a game produced to quickly before it is seasoned properly. It would seem to me that a privately funded project would stay focused and be released when it was finished (polished). Quess we will see
You missed the big point of the OP here, and you even highlighted key text towards it.
Garriot paid 30 million dollars to go to space. He gets ridiculously extravagant houses built for him. he doesnt need to ask fans for money.
The whole 'corporate interference' is total bullshit really. Oh, it happened in WAR and TR...but those were big budget games. When the investment is smaller the investments dont always come with those corporate strings. CCP was certainly able to make the game they wanted to make for example.
And even big funding can come without strings. Look at Trion. They got money to fund an extremely risky project like Defiance along with their Rift money, so it wasnt all 'oh they got funding because its a wow clone'.
Sure gamers don't have a clue about those things. That doesn't matter. Their dollars fund what looks interesting to them, allowing the end-customer to determine the direction of the industry rather than a suit's gut feeling of where the industry is headed (although admittedly that suit's opinions are usually based strongly on previous market performance.)
This isn't about being fine with execs greenlighting a game. Hopefully you're not so reckless as to say you only want exec-greenlit games, because that's just stupid. Are you saying you've never enjoyed any indie title ever? There are some fantastic little gems out there!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When Game A sounds awesome and Game B sounds terrible, and gamers vote with their wallets to fund Game A, they are deciding what games get made.*
Is it true that the final design decisions are in the hands of the developers? Absolutely. And that's one of the many factors behind players voting for familiar design faces instead of judging ideas purely on merit. And this is largely justified, given that development experience will certainly factor into a developer's ability to bring you the idea they promised.
As for boxes on shelves, that seems completely anachronistic to me at this point. Boxes on shelves? Was there ever even a time when we purchased games on shelves? I think if you added up all my game purchases since 2003 (the release of Steam) over 80% of them have been digital.
(* To be clear, in the classic game making process gamers also vote with their wallets and it matters a lot. The Kickstarter process merely eliminates the potential point of failure of an exec guessing what players will want, and being wrong. With Kickstarter the ideas and developers people are excited about will be funded.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What you said has nothing to do with gamers. They are still no clues even if the suits are not doing such a good job. Replacing bad professionals with amateurs does not automatically results in better games.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Though I do have to agree here. He just spent a million dollars on a trip to space, now he's asking for a million in donations to fund a game. Hmmm.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
No .. i am saying i won't spend a dime to fund pipe dreams. However, i do think it is a good idea OTHER gamers fund KS. If they lose their shirt, it is their money, not mine. If a game got made, no matter how remote the possibility is, i can take a look and may be even like it. So it is a win-win for me.
I play lots of indie games. Mark of the Ninja, for example. Better than most MMOs.
But again, i have no problem with suits greenlighting games either .. because if they did a bad job, i just go somewhere else to find entertainment. And in the past, they did a good job for me.