People are mixing things up. Shooter type action combat requires more skill than tab targettting because you have to precision aim. (but even that is agueable since shooters typically use a very small amount of keybound actions, unlike most tab target MMOs).
MMO action combat on the other doesn't require more skill at all, I'd argue even less. The hit box is HUGE, you don't need to aim, just face the right direction and spam your attacks...At least this is true for melee combat, ranged combat might require a little more aiming skills but nowhere near as much as in shooters.
Also, like someone mentionned earlier, if you're facing a group of enemies, you're still gonna be using the same attacks and rotation because you can't target anything and therefore you can't prioritize kills, CC a particular mob or do anything of that order. (unless the game has mob collison, in which case yes you can single out a particular target because the mobs won't all be on top of each other)
So no, action combat MMOs don't require more skill than tab targetting MMOs. They are just different and require different skills. Get over yourselves.
You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect.
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game.. only time this is an issue in a game like tera is there is a bunch of enemies the same size in a group and you try to select one from the group.. you can't really do that.. but never had that issue as the bosses and ones you want to single out are always larger models anyway
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect.
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game
you guys are making very little sense
Let's say there are 5 mobs surrounding one in the center, tell me how you mark the center mob and CC it
You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect.
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game
you guys are making very little sense
Let's say there are 5 mobs surrounding one in the center, tell me how you mark the center mob and CC it
i edited my last post with the answer to that
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect.
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game
you guys are making very little sense
Let's say there are 5 mobs surrounding one in the center, tell me how you mark the center mob and CC it
Action combat still has a target....the mob lights up when you put your target over it and shows it's info like in tab lock. It just doesn't lock on like in tab target. You can mark mobs in tera with sybols just like in wow. And you can target one mob. Some spells even " lock " on durring their casting.
You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect.
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game.. only time this is an issue in a game like tera is there is a bunch of enemies the same size in a group and you try to select one from the group.. you can't really do that.. but never had that issue as the bosses and ones you want to single out are always larger models anyway
In this regard, I can see CalmOceans' dilemma. Say that the model ISN'T as large as Tera bosses, say... the bombers from GW2's lvl 40 dungeon. Now they need to be burned down very fast or they'll wipe everyone, but in the confusion, how exactly would you target them? They're the same size as everything else.
In an action combat game, most wide swings will just hit everything anyway.
doesn't that show an issue with the action gameplay you claimed is fine
In Tera it isn't an issue you say because you never have to CC like that and when you do, Tera already prelocked you onto the larger mob, so tera does the targeting for you.
isn't this exactly what we have been saying here, that it removes strategy?
What I really miss about EQ is that the combat was focused on group interplay.
And I hate games where you have to constantly mash buttons, and this is both systems. For instance, i find Rift rogues unplayable due to the 1 sec gcd where it comes down to mash mash mash mash.
I want combat to be interesting and dangerous and reward teamwork.
I also hate the trend towards danger in numbers, big aoe fests. Individual mobs are rarely dangerous anymore.
I'm the same as you.
I hate the trend towards console play, removing any strategy and making the game look like Street Fighter with swords.
Community, raids and group play reply on slow strategic and calculated combat, it requires tab targeting because it allows for target selection, strategy discussion, pulling strategies and CC...while action combat relies on button mashing solo play.
I'm sure it's fun to see your character swing and jump like a ballerina, but at the end of the day you're losing out on strategy and group interaction and raiding. Action combat raiding is a joke.
I'm boggled at the fact that many recent MMO give you the option to play with a controller.
I thought WoW was a casual game, action MMO take it to the next level and dumb down gameplay into dodge-combo fests while removing every strategy element.
this.
if you like raiding then there is no place for action combat in a mmo
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect.
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game.. only time this is an issue in a game like tera is there is a bunch of enemies the same size in a group and you try to select one from the group.. you can't really do that.. but never had that issue as the bosses and ones you want to single out are always larger models anyway
In this regard, I can see CalmOceans' dilemma. Say that the model ISN'T as large as Tera bosses, say... the bombers from GW2's lvl 40 dungeon. Now they need to be burned down very fast or they'll wipe everyone, but in the confusion, how would exactly would you target them? They're the same size as everything else.
gw2 has tab targetting so it wouldn't be an issue in gw2.. in games without it i never had the issue because ones you would want to select out of a group had large models so you can easily target them
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Action combat can be widely interpreted into all sorts of methods... there are free target attacks, auto target attacks and honestly, lock on is... well a pretty dated action combat mechanic (Ocarina of Time) which can allow tabbing as well...
Honestly, it would only take a small amount of ingenuity to design a system operating both. Even in an action oriented combat system like Vindictus, the AI is able to operate foes and plan out attacks against targets... it wouldn't be that hard to program both into a homoginous system...
Peronsally, I like Free targetting with assisted target aquisition... If that's hard to understand, I mean something along the lines of old school armor core, you have to point in the general direction of the opponent, and than it would auto select the foe closest to your crosshair, but you could also toggle between targets within your firing window. For melee attacks, it doesn't have to be that complicated, since your using basic proximity and attacking in the obvious direction of your foe, but for ranged attacks it allows a small amount of accuracy to play a part, but not make it so specific you have to target your foes exactly.
The reason I don't like tab targetting is because it naturally subtracts the use of AoE attacks on optimal positions where you can hit more foes instead of directly at a single target. But honestly, a system can be designed to do both... even though I feel tab targetting makes it a little to easy to aquire your target though.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
doesn't that show an issue with the action gameplay you claimed is fine
In Tera it isn't an issue you say because you never have to CC like that and when you do, Tera already prelocked you onto the larger mob, so tera does the targeting for you.
isn't this exactly what we have been saying here, that it removes strategy?
not sure what you mean by this
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
by skill you guys are talking about action combos I am assuming, I played vindictus to lvl 70, the raids are basically like playing street fighter, you dodge-combo-and button bash like a lunatic
EQ raids which I enjoy, are slow, they take coordination, half the time is spent discussing strategies, you need to be very aware of others, you are in constant contact with others through chat and it's a slow and very organised event that takes practice, some will call them boring because they are not head-on fights, they are organised and strategic fights
I don't want skill in my MMO if it means Street Fighter skill, I don't want to play a console game on my PC
What I really miss about EQ is that the combat was focused on group interplay.
And I hate games where you have to constantly mash buttons, and this is both systems. For instance, i find Rift rogues unplayable due to the 1 sec gcd where it comes down to mash mash mash mash.
I want combat to be interesting and dangerous and reward teamwork.
I also hate the trend towards danger in numbers, big aoe fests. Individual mobs are rarely dangerous anymore.
I'm the same as you.
I hate the trend towards console play, removing any strategy and making the game look like Street Fighter with swords.
Community, raids and group play reply on slow strategic and calculated combat, it requires tab targeting because it allows for target selection, strategy discussion, pulling strategies and CC...while action combat relies on button mashing solo play.
I'm sure it's fun to see your character swing and jump like a ballerina, but at the end of the day you're losing out on strategy and group interaction and raiding. Action combat raiding is a joke.
I'm boggled at the fact that many recent MMO give you the option to play with a controller.
I thought WoW was a casual game, action MMO take it to the next level and dumb down gameplay into dodge-combo fests while removing every strategy element.
this.
if you like raiding then there is no place for action combat in a mmo
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
anything you could do in a tab target game you could implement in a action based game.. especially if you keep the holy trinity mechanics.. main difference is action based games generally revolve around some sort of aiming and dodge mechanic which makes the fights require you to be much more aware of everything going on but i can't see anything in any tab target game you couldn't implement into a game with tera style combat
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I don't mind a hybrid system like AoC or Tabula Rasa (TR had my favourite "Action" system). I just don't want a system that's similar to an FPS where having to move my mouse really quickly to a point of pintpoint accuracy on the screen is the main skill involved.
Ultimatley the RPG gaming system is all about making the right choice of ability to use and the right target and time for that ability. It's not about having good aim. So some upgrades to make the system a bit more dynamic and fun, i'm all in favour of. But i don't want to be playing a FPS.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I've looked at some Tera raids, and they're action raids like Vindictus. I see tail swipes, action mashing and general zerging. I hoped to see something different but it's the same zerg raiding that other games have.
I think the genre has many fans and people who love that kind of stuff, I just want raids to be slow and strategic.
No one is jumping around or moving like crazy, most casters and even melee are standing and coordinating the event. all mobs are divided and controlled, very slow, very strategic and with coordination.
doesn't that show an issue with the action gameplay you claimed is fine
In Tera it isn't an issue you say because you never have to CC like that and when you do, Tera already prelocked you onto the larger mob, so tera does the targeting for you.
isn't this exactly what we have been saying here, that it removes strategy?
You're either not trying to get what ppl are telling you or you're trying way too hard to be right when you have no idea what you'er talking about.
First hard cc like sheeping isn't the greatest thing ever. It's a pretty lame mechaninc imo. So if that's a must have feature in order to have stratagy we disagree on what stratagy is.
Tera doesn't target anything for you. You have a target reticul on your screen when you move it over mobs they light up and show target info. That's how you aim an attack. Some spells will lock on durring the casting ( most are single target heals ) but that's pretty much it.
You can pull out single mobs from a pack by aiming at them and attacking just them or some classes have skills like leash that will actually pull them to you.
As for button mashing...warrior heroic strike tanking in wow was 100 times the button mash any action combat ever will be. In tera if you just mash buttons the boss will crush you because you wont be able to get out of the way. They don't just face the tank and smash away at them. They move around, they push the tank around and they force even the ranged to pay attention. Just like in any good tab target boss fight you have to learn the fight and know when and where you have to move to or from. It's not just a zerg mash buttons till it's dead thing.
I've looked at some Tera raids, and they're action raids like Vindictus. I see tail swipesm action mashing and general zerging. I hoped to see something different but it's the same zerg raiding that other games have.
Agreed with you and the poster just above you. I like games like TERA and Neverwinter for their combat, but I think if you want anything deeper, there's going to have to be a hybrid system that allows for quick single targeting. We're MMO gamers, what's with all the reflex based crap?
Gonna get carpal tunnel syndrome this way...... *grumble*
I've looked at some Tera raids, and they're action raids like Vindictus. I see tail swipesm action mashing and general zerging. I hoped to see something different but it's the same zerg raiding that other games have.
it's just how the encounters are designed they are designed for fast paced action.. But there is nothing really that would prevent tera from putting in encounters like any raid in wow or EQ1.. its just the target audience for tera is fast paced action not slow paced stuff like eq1..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by dimasokAction combat. After playing TERA, playing any other MMOs with regular tab targeting is an exercise in frustration and anger.
This. Its gonna be really hard for me to jump into a tab target game after playing such amazing combat like TERA's.
Originally posted by CalmOceansI've looked at some Tera raids, and they're action raids like Vindictus. I see tail swipes, action mashing and general zerging. I hoped to see something different but it's the same zerg raiding that other games have.I think the genre has many fans and people who love that kind of stuff, I just want raids to be slow and strategic.This is a typicla EQ raid, from DoD, that shows slow and strategic gameplay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ6XvbzCLANo one is jumping around or moving like crazy, most casters and even melee are standing and coordinating the event. all mobs are divided and controlled, very slow, very strategic and with coordination.
The reason for TERA's "raid" to be the way it is. It is substantially more difficult to coordinate a large group of players on that level of than it is in a tab target game. If they were to put in a raid that had more strategy in mind and didn't cater to just zerg it til its dead I would love them forever. But they would alienate a huuuuge chunk of players, just because of how extremely difficult it would be.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
by skill you guys are talking about action combos I am assuming, I played vindictus to lvl 70, the raids are basically like playing street fighter, you dodge-combo-and button bash like a lunatic
EQ raids which I enjoy, are slow, they take coordination, half the time is spent discussing strategies, you need to be very aware of others, you are in constant contact with others through chat and it's a slow and very organised event that takes practice, some will call them boring because they are not head-on fights, they are organised and strategic fights
I don't want skill in my MMO if it means Street Fighter skill, I don't want to play a console game on my PC
It's a little unfair to say that a game that requires more that press tab and 1-8 is console gameplay. Everything you mentioned can be done in an action mmo, coordination, strategy discussion, being aware of others...all of it. Like I said, it just requires more effort than it would take to play a slow game...but that's with anything, right?
It's a little unfair to say that a game that requires more that press tab and 1-8 is console gameplay. Everything you mentioned can be done in an action mmo, coordination, strategy discussion, being aware of others...all of it. Like I said, it just requires more effort than it would take to play a slow game...but that's with anything, right?
Maybe there are games I'm not aware of but the popular action games I played were extremely different from the game I'm used to, EQ.
In Vindictus I mashed buttons a lot, I needed to dodge a lot, I need a lot of skill, skill as in learning combos and being fast on the trigger.
In Everquest I need dedication, in a raid of 54 I need to know which cleric is going to heal me, I need to talk to that person, I need to tell her during the fight if any of my abilities drop, I need to communicate with the raid what I'm doing, where I'm at, which mob is mine and which is not. It's a slow process, it's one that often takes 30 minutes of discussions so we're all on the same page before we start. Raids take around 1 hour per event.
If you ask me which one I like best, well I enjoyed action games, I thought it was very fun, but I quickly realised I loved slow tab target games with strategy much more. I am not into rushing things or fast gameplay, I am not into learning how to do "combos" or learning how to avoid a tail swipe by making my character do a jumping jack or a barrel roll. It's just a different experience.
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
by skill you guys are talking about action combos I am assuming, I played vindictus to lvl 70, the raids are basically like playing street fighter, you dodge-combo-and button bash like a lunatic
EQ raids which I enjoy, are slow, they take coordination, half the time is spent discussing strategies, you need to be very aware of others, you are in constant contact with others through chat and it's a slow and very organised event that takes practice, some will call them boring because they are not head-on fights, they are organised and strategic fights
I don't want skill in my MMO if it means Street Fighter skill, I don't want to play a console game on my PC
It's a little unfair to say that a game that requires more that press tab and 1-8 is console gameplay. Everything you mentioned can be done in an action mmo, coordination, strategy discussion, being aware of others...all of it. Like I said, it just requires more effort than it would take to play a slow game...but that's with anything, right?
Hypocritical much?
Because tab target games are about more than just pressing 1-8 on a keyboard.
The fact of the matter is until someone makes a deep action combat game people will remain skeptical of it. TERA is pretty bad poster child for action combat, because its combat is shallow beyond belief. GW2 is a step in the right direction and I liked the interplay between class abilities even if it isnt quite as cool as it sounded on paper.
But ultimately i don't think action combat is a great fit for the genre. maybe you can have depth and strategy with it, but its not a natural fit for depth and strategy.
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
by skill you guys are talking about action combos I am assuming, I played vindictus to lvl 70, the raids are basically like playing street fighter, you dodge-combo-and button bash like a lunatic
EQ raids which I enjoy, are slow, they take coordination, half the time is spent discussing strategies, you need to be very aware of others, you are in constant contact with others through chat and it's a slow and very organised event that takes practice, some will call them boring because they are not head-on fights, they are organised and strategic fights
I don't want skill in my MMO if it means Street Fighter skill, I don't want to play a console game on my PC
It's a little unfair to say that a game that requires more that press tab and 1-8 is console gameplay. Everything you mentioned can be done in an action mmo, coordination, strategy discussion, being aware of others...all of it. Like I said, it just requires more effort than it would take to play a slow game...but that's with anything, right?
Hypocritical much?
Because tab target games are about more than just pressing 1-8 on a keyboard.
The fact of the matter is until someone makes a deep action combat game people will remain skeptical of it. TERA is pretty bad poster child for action combat, because its combat is shallow beyond belief. GW2 is a step in the right direction and I liked the interplay between class abilities even if it isnt quite as cool as it sounded on paper.
But ultimately i don't think action combat is a great fit for the genre. maybe you can have depth and strategy with it, but its not a natural fit for depth and strategy.
Don't get ahead of yourself. I was countering the idea that action mmos were compared to street fighter game play.
Depth and strategy is all about perceptions and opinions. It's fit in the MMORPG genre is drawing more and more attention as developers work with it.
Comments
how do you pull one out without being able to target it?
how do you mark the mob to others?
or is it that you aggro zerg both and kite the other one, that's not CC imo
People are mixing things up. Shooter type action combat requires more skill than tab targettting because you have to precision aim. (but even that is agueable since shooters typically use a very small amount of keybound actions, unlike most tab target MMOs).
MMO action combat on the other doesn't require more skill at all, I'd argue even less. The hit box is HUGE, you don't need to aim, just face the right direction and spam your attacks...At least this is true for melee combat, ranged combat might require a little more aiming skills but nowhere near as much as in shooters.
Also, like someone mentionned earlier, if you're facing a group of enemies, you're still gonna be using the same attacks and rotation because you can't target anything and therefore you can't prioritize kills, CC a particular mob or do anything of that order. (unless the game has mob collison, in which case yes you can single out a particular target because the mobs won't all be on top of each other)
So no, action combat MMOs don't require more skill than tab targetting MMOs. They are just different and require different skills. Get over yourselves.
of course you can target it.. just because you cant tab target doesn't mean you don't aim at it.. works the same as a tab target game just don't need to tab through or click on the enemy you just aim at it.. Tera is a holy trinity game and the mechanics in that regard work like any other holy trinity game.. only time this is an issue in a game like tera is there is a bunch of enemies the same size in a group and you try to select one from the group.. you can't really do that.. but never had that issue as the bosses and ones you want to single out are always larger models anyway
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
you guys are making very little sense
Let's say there are 5 mobs surrounding one in the center, tell me how you mark the center mob and CC it
i edited my last post with the answer to that
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Action combat still has a target....the mob lights up when you put your target over it and shows it's info like in tab lock. It just doesn't lock on like in tab target. You can mark mobs in tera with sybols just like in wow. And you can target one mob. Some spells even " lock " on durring their casting.
In this regard, I can see CalmOceans' dilemma. Say that the model ISN'T as large as Tera bosses, say... the bombers from GW2's lvl 40 dungeon. Now they need to be burned down very fast or they'll wipe everyone, but in the confusion, how exactly would you target them? They're the same size as everything else.
In an action combat game, most wide swings will just hit everything anyway.
doesn't that show an issue with the action gameplay you claimed is fine
In Tera it isn't an issue you say because you never have to CC like that and when you do, Tera already prelocked you onto the larger mob, so tera does the targeting for you.
isn't this exactly what we have been saying here, that it removes strategy?
It can be done, it just required more skills than you might be will to put out. You can't tell me that if you are guy who likes to be challenged, obtaining a boss victory using tanking and crowd controlling methods via action combat absolutely craps on tab target fights.
Tab target lovers spam more than action combat fans...you just don't notice because the UI controls their fire.
I've found I greatly prefer tab target and set group-roles in my MMOs.
gw2 has tab targetting so it wouldn't be an issue in gw2.. in games without it i never had the issue because ones you would want to select out of a group had large models so you can easily target them
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Action combat can be widely interpreted into all sorts of methods... there are free target attacks, auto target attacks and honestly, lock on is... well a pretty dated action combat mechanic (Ocarina of Time) which can allow tabbing as well...
Honestly, it would only take a small amount of ingenuity to design a system operating both. Even in an action oriented combat system like Vindictus, the AI is able to operate foes and plan out attacks against targets... it wouldn't be that hard to program both into a homoginous system...
Peronsally, I like Free targetting with assisted target aquisition... If that's hard to understand, I mean something along the lines of old school armor core, you have to point in the general direction of the opponent, and than it would auto select the foe closest to your crosshair, but you could also toggle between targets within your firing window. For melee attacks, it doesn't have to be that complicated, since your using basic proximity and attacking in the obvious direction of your foe, but for ranged attacks it allows a small amount of accuracy to play a part, but not make it so specific you have to target your foes exactly.
The reason I don't like tab targetting is because it naturally subtracts the use of AoE attacks on optimal positions where you can hit more foes instead of directly at a single target. But honestly, a system can be designed to do both... even though I feel tab targetting makes it a little to easy to aquire your target though.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
not sure what you mean by this
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
by skill you guys are talking about action combos I am assuming, I played vindictus to lvl 70, the raids are basically like playing street fighter, you dodge-combo-and button bash like a lunatic
EQ raids which I enjoy, are slow, they take coordination, half the time is spent discussing strategies, you need to be very aware of others, you are in constant contact with others through chat and it's a slow and very organised event that takes practice, some will call them boring because they are not head-on fights, they are organised and strategic fights
I don't want skill in my MMO if it means Street Fighter skill, I don't want to play a console game on my PC
anything you could do in a tab target game you could implement in a action based game.. especially if you keep the holy trinity mechanics.. main difference is action based games generally revolve around some sort of aiming and dodge mechanic which makes the fights require you to be much more aware of everything going on but i can't see anything in any tab target game you couldn't implement into a game with tera style combat
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I don't mind a hybrid system like AoC or Tabula Rasa (TR had my favourite "Action" system). I just don't want a system that's similar to an FPS where having to move my mouse really quickly to a point of pintpoint accuracy on the screen is the main skill involved.
Ultimatley the RPG gaming system is all about making the right choice of ability to use and the right target and time for that ability. It's not about having good aim. So some upgrades to make the system a bit more dynamic and fun, i'm all in favour of. But i don't want to be playing a FPS.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I've looked at some Tera raids, and they're action raids like Vindictus. I see tail swipes, action mashing and general zerging. I hoped to see something different but it's the same zerg raiding that other games have.
I think the genre has many fans and people who love that kind of stuff, I just want raids to be slow and strategic.
This is a typicla EQ raid, from DoD, that shows slow and strategic gameplay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ6XvbzCLA
No one is jumping around or moving like crazy, most casters and even melee are standing and coordinating the event. all mobs are divided and controlled, very slow, very strategic and with coordination.
You're either not trying to get what ppl are telling you or you're trying way too hard to be right when you have no idea what you'er talking about.
First hard cc like sheeping isn't the greatest thing ever. It's a pretty lame mechaninc imo. So if that's a must have feature in order to have stratagy we disagree on what stratagy is.
Tera doesn't target anything for you. You have a target reticul on your screen when you move it over mobs they light up and show target info. That's how you aim an attack. Some spells will lock on durring the casting ( most are single target heals ) but that's pretty much it.
You can pull out single mobs from a pack by aiming at them and attacking just them or some classes have skills like leash that will actually pull them to you.
As for button mashing...warrior heroic strike tanking in wow was 100 times the button mash any action combat ever will be. In tera if you just mash buttons the boss will crush you because you wont be able to get out of the way. They don't just face the tank and smash away at them. They move around, they push the tank around and they force even the ranged to pay attention. Just like in any good tab target boss fight you have to learn the fight and know when and where you have to move to or from. It's not just a zerg mash buttons till it's dead thing.
Agreed with you and the poster just above you. I like games like TERA and Neverwinter for their combat, but I think if you want anything deeper, there's going to have to be a hybrid system that allows for quick single targeting. We're MMO gamers, what's with all the reflex based crap?
Gonna get carpal tunnel syndrome this way...... *grumble*
it's just how the encounters are designed they are designed for fast paced action.. But there is nothing really that would prevent tera from putting in encounters like any raid in wow or EQ1.. its just the target audience for tera is fast paced action not slow paced stuff like eq1..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This. Its gonna be really hard for me to jump into a tab target game after playing such amazing combat like TERA's.The reason for TERA's "raid" to be the way it is. It is substantially more difficult to coordinate a large group of players on that level of than it is in a tab target game. If they were to put in a raid that had more strategy in mind and didn't cater to just zerg it til its dead I would love them forever. But they would alienate a huuuuge chunk of players, just because of how extremely difficult it would be.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
It's a little unfair to say that a game that requires more that press tab and 1-8 is console gameplay. Everything you mentioned can be done in an action mmo, coordination, strategy discussion, being aware of others...all of it. Like I said, it just requires more effort than it would take to play a slow game...but that's with anything, right?
Maybe there are games I'm not aware of but the popular action games I played were extremely different from the game I'm used to, EQ.
In Vindictus I mashed buttons a lot, I needed to dodge a lot, I need a lot of skill, skill as in learning combos and being fast on the trigger.
In Everquest I need dedication, in a raid of 54 I need to know which cleric is going to heal me, I need to talk to that person, I need to tell her during the fight if any of my abilities drop, I need to communicate with the raid what I'm doing, where I'm at, which mob is mine and which is not. It's a slow process, it's one that often takes 30 minutes of discussions so we're all on the same page before we start. Raids take around 1 hour per event.
If you ask me which one I like best, well I enjoyed action games, I thought it was very fun, but I quickly realised I loved slow tab target games with strategy much more. I am not into rushing things or fast gameplay, I am not into learning how to do "combos" or learning how to avoid a tail swipe by making my character do a jumping jack or a barrel roll. It's just a different experience.
Hypocritical much?
Because tab target games are about more than just pressing 1-8 on a keyboard.
The fact of the matter is until someone makes a deep action combat game people will remain skeptical of it. TERA is pretty bad poster child for action combat, because its combat is shallow beyond belief. GW2 is a step in the right direction and I liked the interplay between class abilities even if it isnt quite as cool as it sounded on paper.
But ultimately i don't think action combat is a great fit for the genre. maybe you can have depth and strategy with it, but its not a natural fit for depth and strategy.
Don't get ahead of yourself. I was countering the idea that action mmos were compared to street fighter game play.
Depth and strategy is all about perceptions and opinions. It's fit in the MMORPG genre is drawing more and more attention as developers work with it.