Honestly its not the lack of skills GW2 had that was wrong with it, it was the sheer lack of complexity that bothered me. There could be plenty of skills put on a single ability bar and it would be fine, its just about how its used and the thought processes/complexity that matters. Counting in utilities... maybe the 2nd bar becomes more of a valid thing to put into the mix but i feel its quality more then quantity, having skills you will actually USE over just sitting there.
Guildwars 2 made complexity sheerly about pressing the dodge button and running around looking silly which to me made combat extremely simplistic and boring, though given old school games with dozens of hotbars filled with skills, often times they become useless and it just comes down to having "Use on Cool Down" priority list that to me I feel makes it more annoying then skill based. Its fine having specific utilities for things just hate when its just a "press the 1 key every and hit the random m key for other abilities once a minute" kind of mess.
The multiple bars of abilities in DAOC had a lot to do with passive buffs, which honestly don't matter in combat. You can have dozens of those, I couldn't care less.
Sorry, nothing personal, but I just facepalm'ed in front of my pc. Buffs were so important in DAoC, especially in combat. Rebuff a rezzed group member, buffshear a caster in moc. There were so much options and ways of benefiting from them in a fight. It just leaves alot of tactics behind when you say they didn't matter in combat which is completely wrong.
QFT
True if someone died it made big difference. In games like WAR / GW you just rez somebody and he is almost as fresh as before
The ability of making macros in DAoC is what I miss the most in modern games. Nowadays, everything has an icon and a button to be pressed. I recall even making a macro to help me make /assist-buttons.
The number of abilities I want is in general mute, I think a wide variety of skills can be useful, especially since reactionals and positional styles and follow-up chains was the best melee combat system I have played to date. Letting follow-up style cycle on the same hotbutton could work, but I fear it makes combat feel easy. No need to pay attention to whether the attack hit.
What people needs to remember is that there were many item abilities/charges and potions that also were added to the hotbar, and high amount of customizability allows people to set up what works for them. Another feature I liked was that we could toggle between hotbars quite easily. That way my healer could have one hotbar for heals and CCs, and a separate one for resses and buffs. That way my screen wasn't filled with icons I didn't have use for at that moment, but if I needed an ability it was quickly accessible. Hopefully, CU will have a similar set up.
I enjoyed the twisting mecanic as well on my Paladin and then again on my Chosen. I would definitely love to see the tank or some hybrid class have the twisting style combat mechanic.
IMO, the "goal" should be 24 core abilities at max progression or w/e you want to call it. Ideally that would be visualized with two center,bottom quickbars. Additional left and right quickbars should be available for utility, situtational, chat binds, etc. While the GW2 limited ability system was billed as a "strategic" advance, I think it was quite the opposite and was simply a cop out by the developers that allowed for easier coding/balance and catered to a less experienced casual gamer. On the flip side, I thought games like Vanguard had simply too many skills causing you to have basically anything and everything slotted in numerous bars. So to me, 24 seems to be the sweet spot.
I love the limited hotbar approach because it makes you choose wisely what to put on your hotbar creating a Deck Building subgame. This gives you more choice and allows skills and abilities to be more powerful then their multi-hotbar cousins.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I think you are misunderstanding me, Cexy. My concern is with how many abilities are available to you to use at any given time. I want classes to have some complexity to them and not be restricted to only ever having 10 skills they can use with the option to switch out some skills with other skills but not to use all of your skills. For instance on a CU healer I might want to have skills such as:
Normal heal
Big heal with a higher power cost
Normal group heal
Big group heal with a higher power cost
Instant heal
Instant group heal
Remove a negative effect such as poison, nearsight, disease from a realm mate
Rez a realm mate
Root an enemy
Free myself from all CC effects
Poison an enemy
Short duration group buff that increases magic resistance 33%
Short duration group buff that increases physical resistance 33%
Free a realm mate from root
Summon a pet
Realm ability that allows me to cast through interruptions for a short time
Realm ability that makes my pet do 50% more damage and have CC immunity for a short time
Realm ability that gives me 100% power pool
Realm ability that creates a shield that drains enemies who attack me in melee of 50% of their stamina and snares them for a few seconds
Realm ability that gives my group 100% increased power regeneration for a short time
You can't fit all of that into 1 quickbar. That's my point. I want CU to be a game that solves the problem by giving me enough quickbars that it can have more complex classes not by stripping down classes to only 10 abilities.
You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by belatucadros Go ahead and condense down to 4 abilities then. If it is that easy. Also, why does x number of skills take your eyes off the battle? I'm not following.
You don't get how having a lot of hotbars taking up screenspace and looking them for CD's, etc takes your view off the battlefield/game?
I'd much rather watch the game, have as little screenspace as needed taken up by a skillbar and intead be able to ues muscle memory controls with my hands then hotkey hotkey hotkey.
A lot of "skills/abilities" in mmo's can be condensed down into part of normal control functions and abilities.
My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface. Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor. If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
Originally posted by Set_in_Ink My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface. Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor. If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.
I would still not be happy with that because there are abilities that you only need to use once in a blue moon. No sane person would put them on the action bars if you have a limited number of spaces, but they still play their part. There are always classes that use less and more abilities than others, but with decent design from the team and creativity from the player (via macros and binds) any class should be manageable by everyone with just that little bit of effort. If someone is unable not play class x or y because they can't handle the actions of said class, they probably need to move on to another class. Not to say there should be a ridiculous amount of actions for the sake of them being there, but we do need some variation and the ability to use our entire toolkit, even if some abilities are rarely used.
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
Originally posted by Set_in_InkMy UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface. Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor. If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.
Would that still not be enough in your opinion?
I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.
EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).
Originally posted by Set_in_InkMy UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface. Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor. If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.
Would that still not be enough in your opinion?
I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.
EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).
Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg. This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc. While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game. Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy. GW2 has already shown this to be the case..
I think you are misunderstanding me, Cexy. My concern is with how many abilities are available to you to use at any given time. I want classes to have some complexity to them and not be restricted to only ever having 10 skills they can use with the option to switch out some skills with other skills but not to use all of your skills. For instance on a CU healer I might want to have skills such as:
Normal heal
Big heal with a higher power cost
Normal group heal
Big group heal with a higher power cost
Instant heal
Instant group heal
Remove a negative effect such as poison, nearsight, disease from a realm mate
Rez a realm mate
Root an enemy
Free myself from all CC effects
Poison an enemy
Short duration group buff that increases magic resistance 33%
Short duration group buff that increases physical resistance 33%
Free a realm mate from root
Summon a pet
Realm ability that allows me to cast through interruptions for a short time
Realm ability that makes my pet do 50% more damage and have CC immunity for a short time
Realm ability that gives me 100% power pool
Realm ability that creates a shield that drains enemies who attack me in melee of 50% of their stamina and snares them for a few seconds
Realm ability that gives my group 100% increased power regeneration for a short time
You can't fit all of that into 1 quickbar. That's my point. I want CU to be a game that solves the problem by giving me enough quickbars that it can have more complex classes not by stripping down classes to only 10 abilities.
You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.
Only the not so good players watch their skill bars...
Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg. This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc. While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game. Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy. GW2 has already shown this to be the case..
GW2 is a HORRIBLEexample of this. Look at GW1 instead for how it would work. I think most people don't want to go back to the days of having to use 4+ hotbars of stuff. And no WoW/Rift style macro's are not answer, that is just using scripting to automate your attack priorities.
Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg. This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc. While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game. Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy. GW2 has already shown this to be the case..
GW2 is a HORRIBLEexample of this. Look at GW1 instead for how it would work. I think most people don't want to go back to the days of having to use 4+ hotbars of stuff. And no WoW/Rift style macro's are not answer, that is just using scripting to automate your attack priorities.
WoW in-game macros do not in any way allow you to automate anything. That would be botting and would earn you a ban. You must physically perform every action just as you would in DAoC or without the use of macros. They are mainly used for simplification and personal preference. Having never played Rift, I can not comment on that particular game.
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
Originally posted by Set_in_InkMy UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface. Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor. If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.
Would that still not be enough in your opinion?
I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.
EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).
Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg. This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc. While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game. Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy. GW2 has already shown this to be the case..
Guild Wars 2 doesn't use the same system as Guild wars 1.
in Guild wars 1 you had to decide what abiliies to place on your deck and everything. In guild wars 2 they no longer give you this choice, instead your weapon determines what "skills" you are given, and thus every claass that uses the same weapon type has those same skills, period.
I think you are misunderstanding me, Cexy. My concern is with how many abilities are available to you to use at any given time. I want classes to have some complexity to them and not be restricted to only ever having 10 skills they can use with the option to switch out some skills with other skills but not to use all of your skills. For instance on a CU healer I might want to have skills such as:
Normal heal
Big heal with a higher power cost
Normal group heal
Big group heal with a higher power cost
Instant heal
Instant group heal
Remove a negative effect such as poison, nearsight, disease from a realm mate
Rez a realm mate
Root an enemy
Free myself from all CC effects
Poison an enemy
Short duration group buff that increases magic resistance 33%
Short duration group buff that increases physical resistance 33%
Free a realm mate from root
Summon a pet
Realm ability that allows me to cast through interruptions for a short time
Realm ability that makes my pet do 50% more damage and have CC immunity for a short time
Realm ability that gives me 100% power pool
Realm ability that creates a shield that drains enemies who attack me in melee of 50% of their stamina and snares them for a few seconds
Realm ability that gives my group 100% increased power regeneration for a short time
You can't fit all of that into 1 quickbar. That's my point. I want CU to be a game that solves the problem by giving me enough quickbars that it can have more complex classes not by stripping down classes to only 10 abilities.
You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.
The UI is part of the action on the screen. And I don't see how you could condense those 20 skills into 3-4 unless you are wanting to have 1 button that heals your target and decides how big of a heal to cast for you, also casts a group heal, also cures your target of negative effects, and also rezzes your target if he's dead. I don't want to have the game do all my playing for me.
I'm fine with condensing some skills into 1 button when it comes to melee style chains where you have to pull off style 1 in order to complete style 2 in order to do style 3, but give me some options for what spells to cast on a healer or caster with different benefits and drawbacks and let me decide which one is appropriate in a certain situation. This is a PC MMO not a console FPS. You shouldn't be able to slam your head against the keyboard and be successful.
Comments
Honestly its not the lack of skills GW2 had that was wrong with it, it was the sheer lack of complexity that bothered me. There could be plenty of skills put on a single ability bar and it would be fine, its just about how its used and the thought processes/complexity that matters. Counting in utilities... maybe the 2nd bar becomes more of a valid thing to put into the mix but i feel its quality more then quantity, having skills you will actually USE over just sitting there.
Guildwars 2 made complexity sheerly about pressing the dodge button and running around looking silly which to me made combat extremely simplistic and boring, though given old school games with dozens of hotbars filled with skills, often times they become useless and it just comes down to having "Use on Cool Down" priority list that to me I feel makes it more annoying then skill based. Its fine having specific utilities for things just hate when its just a "press the 1 key every and hit the random m key for other abilities once a minute" kind of mess.
QFT
True if someone died it made big difference. In games like WAR / GW you just rez somebody and he is almost as fresh as before
The ability of making macros in DAoC is what I miss the most in modern games. Nowadays, everything has an icon and a button to be pressed. I recall even making a macro to help me make /assist-buttons.
The number of abilities I want is in general mute, I think a wide variety of skills can be useful, especially since reactionals and positional styles and follow-up chains was the best melee combat system I have played to date. Letting follow-up style cycle on the same hotbutton could work, but I fear it makes combat feel easy. No need to pay attention to whether the attack hit.
What people needs to remember is that there were many item abilities/charges and potions that also were added to the hotbar, and high amount of customizability allows people to set up what works for them. Another feature I liked was that we could toggle between hotbars quite easily. That way my healer could have one hotbar for heals and CCs, and a separate one for resses and buffs. That way my screen wasn't filled with icons I didn't have use for at that moment, but if I needed an ability it was quickly accessible. Hopefully, CU will have a similar set up.
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
I love the limited hotbar approach because it makes you choose wisely what to put on your hotbar creating a Deck Building subgame. This gives you more choice and allows skills and abilities to be more powerful then their multi-hotbar cousins.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Also, why does x number of skills take your eyes off the battle? I'm not following.
You don't get how having a lot of hotbars taking up screenspace and looking them for CD's, etc takes your view off the battlefield/game?
This:
http://www.nvnews.net/previews/geforce_6800_gs/images/guild_wars_1.jpg
vs:
http://oi55.tinypic.com/jgmumx.jpg
or heaven forbid:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2008/04/mak_analysispt1_large.jpg
I'd much rather watch the game, have as little screenspace as needed taken up by a skillbar and intead be able to ues muscle memory controls with my hands then hotkey hotkey hotkey.
A lot of "skills/abilities" in mmo's can be condensed down into part of normal control functions and abilities.
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.
Would that still not be enough in your opinion?
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.
EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).
Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs
Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg. This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc. While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game. Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy. GW2 has already shown this to be the case..
Only the not so good players watch their skill bars...
GW2 is a HORRIBLE example of this. Look at GW1 instead for how it would work. I think most people don't want to go back to the days of having to use 4+ hotbars of stuff. And no WoW/Rift style macro's are not answer, that is just using scripting to automate your attack priorities.
WoW in-game macros do not in any way allow you to automate anything. That would be botting and would earn you a ban. You must physically perform every action just as you would in DAoC or without the use of macros. They are mainly used for simplification and personal preference. Having never played Rift, I can not comment on that particular game.
'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes
What I mean by automate is this......It takes all the strategy out of having different abilities.
Do maxdamagestyle
If on cooldown then do 2ndbeststyle
If on cooldown then do 3rdbeststyle
If on cooldown then do basicstyle
If out of range then do basicrangedd
Guild Wars 2 doesn't use the same system as Guild wars 1.
in Guild wars 1 you had to decide what abiliies to place on your deck and everything. In guild wars 2 they no longer give you this choice, instead your weapon determines what "skills" you are given, and thus every claass that uses the same weapon type has those same skills, period.
I preferred the GW1 style myself.
The UI is part of the action on the screen. And I don't see how you could condense those 20 skills into 3-4 unless you are wanting to have 1 button that heals your target and decides how big of a heal to cast for you, also casts a group heal, also cures your target of negative effects, and also rezzes your target if he's dead. I don't want to have the game do all my playing for me.
I'm fine with condensing some skills into 1 button when it comes to melee style chains where you have to pull off style 1 in order to complete style 2 in order to do style 3, but give me some options for what spells to cast on a healer or caster with different benefits and drawbacks and let me decide which one is appropriate in a certain situation. This is a PC MMO not a console FPS. You shouldn't be able to slam your head against the keyboard and be successful.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer