There have been "attempts" made by developers to increase diversity in how XP is gained such as allowing you to level through crafting or just playing pvp. This is a solid alternative and really the only one i could see, however it has yet to be done efficiently to the point where it would be viable to actually level like that instead of quests. So far quests have been the quickest way to progress to level cap and if thats the case then that will be what people do in the interest of time.
If xp gain was = time spent across say quests, crafting, and pvp scenarios then that would make players happier overall. Though I think a combination of the 3 to level is the best way to have an enjoyable experience, at least for me since i would find it dull to just craft to level or quest only etc.
It's tough to re-create a single player game from the perspective of questing in an MMO because you're going to get the same experience - a 40 hour game that you quit after you "beat" it.
It is not that hard. STO has done it with their story missions. TOR has also done it.
Those probably aren't the best two examples since both had large dips in their population shortly after their respective launches.
It CAN be done, but your game has to have some other substance to them, because if that's all there is to do, people will shelve it and move onto the next game as soon as the stories are completed.
They are examples of that it can be done .. i didn't say it is done well. Obviously STO & TOR questing is lacking compared to games like Dishonored and Bioshock.
However, i don't see a big technological barrier to do the kind of bioshock & dishonor type story questing in instances like what STO has done. They just need better writers, more scripting & animation, and stuff like that.
I would love to hear about the "alternatives". You say that MMOs shouldn't do quests which are of the "kill x mobs", "collect x stuff" and "talk to NPC X" variety but can you give examples of alternatives? For example, GW2 does hearts and dynamic events but every single heart/dynamic event I can think of is one of these:
1) kill x number of mobs
2) colelct x number of stuff
3) talk to NPC X
4) Escort NPC X - god how much I hate escort quests. And GW2 brought shitloads of them!
Sooooo, can you think of anything " new"?
And when you think about it, that is essentially what all mythological quests boil down to. I think people wouldn't mind quests of this sort if the players had more freedom in deciding HOW to complete the quests.
Take the Labors of Hercules for example, specifically his Fifth labor.. He is to clean out the Augean Stables in one day...essentially a 'collect cow manure' quest. It's a timed quest. But how he completes it is up to him. Rather than grab a shovel and start pitching out the crap, he diverts a stream and floods the stables to wash them clean.
I firmly believe that if players were given more freedom in how to complete quests, they'd be much more enjoyable.
Yes, this reminds me of Quest for Glory. For those of you too young to remember or for some inexplicable reason never played one, it is of the greatest PC RPG's.
Here's an example of gameplay:
You go to the healers house and she won't sell you anything or give you information, but she blabbers on about her lost ring. You look around her cottage but don't see anything, but a bird is chirping in the window.
Now, this was before the internets was for peoples. So you had to know that birds are attracted to shiney things.
Outside her cottage was a tree with a large branch and a bird's nest in it. You see an occasional sparkle if you wait for it.
You can climb the tree if your climbing skills are high enough. And see what's in the nest.
Or if you were too weak to climb, and you had found the fetch spell, you could cast that and it would retrive the nest for you.
Or if you weren't magically inclined or agile enough to climb, you could just throw things at it and knock it down.
Of course, this is all awesome and fun, but the internet would ruin it. Because a single spoiler destroys all the gameplay options. That's where TSW went wrong. Their quests require you to play detective, but instead of having all the clues available in gmae, they make you google it and that just ruins it.
Exactly...a good example.
My cynical mind tells me that developers these days anticipate people using cheat sites, so they don't put enough effort into contextualizing the clues, or making quests more complicated. Early EverQuest was like TSW in a manner of speaking...you sort of had to investigate and search out the quests, but because there wasn't enough clues, most people went to cheat sites. It didn't help that many quests were bugged, so you didn't want to waste time on a quest you couldn't complete.
You'll always have players who go to cheat sites. That shouldn't deter developers from investing time in making a complete and complex questing system.
I would rather keep kill 10 quests than play something with even more instancing, if I wanted my own world, I will play a single player game. Lobby is not massive.
My cynical mind tells me that developers these days anticipate people using cheat sites, so they don't put enough effort into contextualizing the clues, or making quests more complicated. Early EverQuest was like TSW in a manner of speaking...you sort of had to investigate and search out the quests, but because there wasn't enough clues, most people went to cheat sites. It didn't help that many quests were bugged, so you didn't want to waste time on a quest you couldn't complete.
You'll always have players who go to cheat sites. That shouldn't deter developers from investing time in making a complete and complex questing system.
It depends on what the audience enjoy? If all they want is to have a good excuse to kill stuff, all that work would be wasted.
Look at Bioshock or Dishonored. Great story ... good quests .. but ultimately it is excuses to kill stuff.
I don't think many people enjoy figuring things out .. or search for things.
Personally i have done my share of graph paper mapping before ...finding stuff is just not fun to me .. and msot of the time it is just boring time search .. no challenge at all.
And puzzles .. i do like some puzzle (like physical puzzles), but i can get good puzzle games somewhere other than MMO. "The ROOM" is a nice puzzle game, for example. And puzzle game to me, is more a solo kind of thing.
Originally posted by Rusque Originally posted by Drakephire Originally posted by fivoroth I would love to hear about the "alternatives". You say that MMOs shouldn't do quests which are of the "kill x mobs", "collect x stuff" and "talk to NPC X" variety but can you give examples of alternatives? For example, GW2 does hearts and dynamic events but every single heart/dynamic event I can think of is one of these:1) kill x number of mobs2) colelct x number of stuff3) talk to NPC X4) Escort NPC X - god how much I hate escort quests. And GW2 brought shitloads of them!Sooooo, can you think of anything " new"?
And when you think about it, that is essentially what all mythological quests boil down to. I think people wouldn't mind quests of this sort if the players had more freedom in deciding HOW to complete the quests.
Take the Labors of Hercules for example, specifically his Fifth labor.. He is to clean out the Augean Stables in one day...essentially a 'collect cow manure' quest. It's a timed quest. But how he completes it is up to him. Rather than grab a shovel and start pitching out the crap, he diverts a stream and floods the stables to wash them clean.
I firmly believe that if players were given more freedom in how to complete quests, they'd be much more enjoyable.
Yes, this reminds me of Quest for Glory. For those of you too young to remember or for some inexplicable reason never played one, it is of the greatest PC RPG's.
Here's an example of gameplay:
You go to the healers house and she won't sell you anything or give you information, but she blabbers on about her lost ring. You look around her cottage but don't see anything, but a bird is chirping in the window.
Now, this was before the internets was for peoples. So you had to know that birds are attracted to shiney things.
Outside her cottage was a tree with a large branch and a bird's nest in it. You see an occasional sparkle if you wait for it.
You can climb the tree if your climbing skills are high enough. And see what's in the nest.
Or if you were too weak to climb, and you had found the fetch spell, you could cast that and it would retrive the nest for you.
Or if you weren't magically inclined or agile enough to climb, you could just throw things at it and knock it down.
Of course, this is all awesome and fun, but the internet would ruin it. Because a single spoiler destroys all the gameplay options. That's where TSW went wrong. Their quests require you to play detective, but instead of having all the clues available in gmae, they make you google it and that just ruins it.
Exactly...a good example.
My cynical mind tells me that developers these days anticipate people using cheat sites, so they don't put enough effort into contextualizing the clues, or making quests more complicated. Early EverQuest was like TSW in a manner of speaking...you sort of had to investigate and search out the quests, but because there wasn't enough clues, most people went to cheat sites. It didn't help that many quests were bugged, so you didn't want to waste time on a quest you couldn't complete.
You'll always have players who go to cheat sites. That shouldn't deter developers from investing time in making a complete and complex questing system.
Personally, I would like to have tried and failed a puzzle quest than to not have had a puzzle quest to try in the first place.
it's all about context.. you fight 100 goblins standing in a field placed there for no purpose but to be slaughtered by people or you add some context and have the goblins invading, attacking a village, taking things over and require you to kill them in this fashion..to me it makes a WORLD of difference.. like my example on the last page of this thread they could just have a quest of kill x ogres while they all happily sit in their camps with no rhym or reason to be there. Or they could set it up like I laid out in my previous post.. which would you prefer?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
it's all about context.. you fight 100 goblins standing in a field placed there for no purpose but to be slaughtered by people or you add some context and have the goblins invading, attacking a village, taking things over and require you to kill them in this fashion..to me it makes a WORLD of difference.. like my example on the last page of this thread they could just have a quest of kill x ogres while they all happily sit in their camps with no rhym or reason to be there. Or they could set it up like I laid out in my previous post.. which would you prefer?
Most people just skip the quest text, so to them its all the same.
Originally posted by Aerowyn it's all about context.. you fight 100 goblins standing in a field placed there for no purpose but to be slaughtered by people or you add some context and have the goblins invading, attacking a village, taking things over and require you to kill them in this fashion..to me it makes a WORLD of difference.. like my example on the last page of this thread they could just have a quest of kill x ogres while they all happily sit in their camps with no rhym or reason to be there. Or they could set it up like I laid out in my previous post.. which would you prefer?
Most people just skip the quest text, so to them its all the same.
if you read my example a page back there would not need to be any quest text at all really
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Squeak69 BETTER QUESTION, explain in detail alternatives to this.
Make fewer quests that are harder.
You wont know who has a quest for you until you speak to a NPC. You probably wont be speaking to every NPC in town just to find a quest. You might speak to them to find out more about the town you're in, the race of the person you're talking to, etc. Sometimes you might be looking for a quest. Either way, when you find a NPC with a quest he or she might say they want something or need you to go clear an infestation or to deliver something or take them somewhere. There would be fewer of these quests than "modern" MMOs. What you have to do wont be immediately obvious. For example, if you need Nax's tail....where is Nax? Maybe you have to rely on websites and forums ran by fans to find him. Maybe somewhere there is another NPC that could tell you how to find Nax. Maybe you wont be able to complete this quest for months. The key thing is that you're not running back and forth from point to point with specific instructions given to you.
Edit: Instead of exp and gear and money as a reward make the rewards only be items and money. Completing quests shouldn't make you better at killing a monster.
Harder according to whom? And if you make fewer quest, people are going to bitch there's not enough content. And don't act like any quest will be long enough for a guy who sits on a pc all day and plays these games. I think that's the issue. You have a put a good amount of these quest in for the locust who will simply destory the content at an alarming rate.
Also, what you're describing was pretty much done in TSW. There were investigation quest in which the in game browser was pretty much a necessity. Issue there is, there is absolutly no reply value to that type of quest. Once the riddle or issue is solved, it turns into the same type of quest you don't like. Go find Nax and get his tail. It's a fetch quest now. And the community can't be trusted to keep secrets regarding quest. I saw it in TSW - people would ask where something was and someone would tell them... killing the whole point.
It seems the dev's keep going back to these quest because liked or not, they are at least solid and give the player something to do.
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
My cynical mind tells me that developers these days anticipate people using cheat sites, so they don't put enough effort into contextualizing the clues, or making quests more complicated. Early EverQuest was like TSW in a manner of speaking...you sort of had to investigate and search out the quests, but because there wasn't enough clues, most people went to cheat sites. It didn't help that many quests were bugged, so you didn't want to waste time on a quest you couldn't complete.
You'll always have players who go to cheat sites. That shouldn't deter developers from investing time in making a complete and complex questing system.
It depends on what the audience enjoy? If all they want is to have a good excuse to kill stuff, all that work would be wasted.
Look at Bioshock or Dishonored. Great story ... good quests .. but ultimately it is excuses to kill stuff.
I don't think many people enjoy figuring things out .. or search for things.
Personally i have done my share of graph paper mapping before ...finding stuff is just not fun to me .. and msot of the time it is just boring time search .. no challenge at all.
And puzzles .. i do like some puzzle (like physical puzzles), but i can get good puzzle games somewhere other than MMO. "The ROOM" is a nice puzzle game, for example. And puzzle game to me, is more a solo kind of thing.
Of course it does depend on what playstyle one prefers. Presumabably if a developer is making a quest game, then it is for those who enjoy the idea of questing. My suggestion is for improving questing dynamics, not an attempt to say one playstyle is better than another. In this case, the work would not be wasted.
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
-Pixel
I agree with you mate, ur absolutely right. The feeling you described I had too playing Lineage 2. Good old times, things were actually tough and hard to get and the harder something is the greater it feels once you finally have it.
I actually even prefer grinding mobs rather than quest-grind. At least that way I can make some friends while grinding with others.
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
-Pixel
I agree with you mate, ur absolutely right. The feeling you described I had too playing Lineage 2. Good old times, things were actually tough and hard to get and the harder something is the greater it feels once you finally have it.
I actually even prefer grinding mobs rather than quest-grind. At least that way I can make some friends while grinding with others.
Oh wait, you mean you don't like doing the /faceroll dungeon finder queues where no one talks except to insult someone's dps?
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
-Pixel
i get the sense of danger aspect but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.. sure there are games like dark souls and such that are hard but overall easier games sell better nowadays... but you can still have content that is not frustratingly hard and have consequence and give you some sort of satisfaction..
for me devs could follow a few things to make PVE more interesting without being more frustrating
1. Make mobs all have some purpose.. the zoo setup(as one poster here says) where basically mobs are just out on display for no purpose. Make mobs engaging, make then doing things, make them actually feel like they are apart of the world.
2. Make the world interactive.. using my example from the previous page.. allow players to take over areas that are controlled by hostile mobs, allow them to build in these areas, but also make there be a reason to do this. Make it so by taking over said area and building up a town or fort you get certain things like new trade routes or new items you couldn't get otherwise. Also add in ways the mobs would take back player made areas unless the area had constant protection from players and such. You could also add in random weather disasters in an area that could level a player made town or have invasions by the original hostile owners and so forth.
There is a lot of things devs can do to make leveling in a game more interesting, I feel gw2 did a good first step towards a better leveling experience and hope future MMOs take things a step further to really flesh out a dynamic feeling world.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
-Pixel
i get the sense of danger aspect but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.. sure there are games like dark souls and such that are hard but overall easier games sell better nowadays... but you can still have content that is not frustratingly hard and have consequence and give you some sort of satisfaction..
for me devs could follow a few things to make PVE more interesting without being more frustrating
1. Make mobs all have some purpose.. the zoo setup(as one poster here says) where basically mobs are just out on display for no purpose. Make mobs engaging, make then doing things, make them actually feel like they are apart of the world.
2. Make the world interactive.. using my example from the previous page.. allow players to take over areas that are controlled by hostile mobs, allow them to build in these areas, but also make there be a reason to do this. Make it so by taking over said area and building up a town or fort you get certain things like new trade routes or new items you couldn't get otherwise. Also add in ways the mobs would take back player made areas unless the area had constant protection from players and such. You could also add in random weather disasters in an area that could level a player made town or have invasions by the original hostile owners and so forth.
There is a lot of things devs can do to make leveling in a game more interesting, I feel gw2 did a good first step towards a better leveling experience and hope future MMOs take things a step further to really flesh out a dynamic feeling world.
"but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.."
I understand exactly what you are saying, but to be perfectly honest I could give a crap about the "majority". If the majority wants kiddie hand hold games, they can choose to play just about ANY of the MMOs out right now. Can't we just have one good difficult game that kicks our asses? Am I asking too much?
The best questing game is still the first questing game and the one with the name in the title. Everquest. The reason why is because it was a group orientated game, you actually had to read the quests and figure out what to do.
There were only a few mechanics in the game, give item to NPC or combine items into a bag to make another item and give that to a NPC. Add the fact that you could give something and lose it and have to start all over again, that meant there was big time cooperation amongst the player base.
Entire game sites were developed just to deam with EQ's many quests and most of them are still going strong today.
But as soon as WOW came out, that changed all that. No longer did people want to actually read quests or spend a good deal of time on them. . So you have the NPCs with ! over their heads.
But even that wasn't enough. LOTRO took it to a new low. Not only did you not have to read the quests or even look for the NPCs, but now you have the quest map, the mini map quest indicator, the game map quest indicator, the quest update thing that flashes on your screen when you loot a goat bladder, and you can even mouse over the mobs to see if they are needed for your little fed ex quests.
The problem isn't the design, it's that the players don't want to spend time on quests anymore in and themepark game. If you remembered, EQ level 1-50 had no required level for loot. That is something no game has had since. Why spend a week on a quest at level 20 when the item reward will be gone in about two hours of game play.
The removal of item level requirements is the first step to getting back to interesting quests. The next step is to break the zone/F2P mentality of the design process so you do not have a NPC who has a problem that happens to involve goat bladders which exist 200 meters from him and he needs your help.
"but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.."
I understand exactly what you are saying, but to be perfectly honest I could give a crap about the "majority". If the majority wants kiddie hand hold games, they can choose to play just about ANY of the MMOs out right now. Can't we just have one good difficult game that kicks our asses? Am I asking too much?
Yes, you can have ONE.
Diablo 3 hard core perma death on MP10. That certainly will kick your ass(es).
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
-Pixel
i get the sense of danger aspect but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.. sure there are games like dark souls and such that are hard but overall easier games sell better nowadays... but you can still have content that is not frustratingly hard and have consequence and give you some sort of satisfaction..
for me devs could follow a few things to make PVE more interesting without being more frustrating
1. Make mobs all have some purpose.. the zoo setup(as one poster here says) where basically mobs are just out on display for no purpose. Make mobs engaging, make then doing things, make them actually feel like they are apart of the world.
2. Make the world interactive.. using my example from the previous page.. allow players to take over areas that are controlled by hostile mobs, allow them to build in these areas, but also make there be a reason to do this. Make it so by taking over said area and building up a town or fort you get certain things like new trade routes or new items you couldn't get otherwise. Also add in ways the mobs would take back player made areas unless the area had constant protection from players and such. You could also add in random weather disasters in an area that could level a player made town or have invasions by the original hostile owners and so forth.
There is a lot of things devs can do to make leveling in a game more interesting, I feel gw2 did a good first step towards a better leveling experience and hope future MMOs take things a step further to really flesh out a dynamic feeling world.
"but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.."
I understand exactly what you are saying, but to be perfectly honest I could give a crap about the "majority". If the majority wants kiddie hand hold games, they can choose to play just about ANY of the MMOs out right now. Can't we just have one good difficult game that kicks our asses? Am I asking too much?
they made that its called wizardry online and its umm well yea..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Squeak69 BETTER QUESTION, explain in detail alternatives to this.
Make fewer quests that are harder.
You wont know who has a quest for you until you speak to a NPC. You probably wont be speaking to every NPC in town just to find a quest. You might speak to them to find out more about the town you're in, the race of the person you're talking to, etc. Sometimes you might be looking for a quest. Either way, when you find a NPC with a quest he or she might say they want something or need you to go clear an infestation or to deliver something or take them somewhere. There would be fewer of these quests than "modern" MMOs. What you have to do wont be immediately obvious. For example, if you need Nax's tail....where is Nax? Maybe you have to rely on websites and forums ran by fans to find him. Maybe somewhere there is another NPC that could tell you how to find Nax. Maybe you wont be able to complete this quest for months. The key thing is that you're not running back and forth from point to point with specific instructions given to you.
P.S. games that focus on building, like the sims and the tycoon games and the like such are the exeption to this rule cause they work in a entirely diffrent way.
Actually, Ultima Online (and for the most part, Lineage 2) worked well without an progression system being dependent on a quest system.
The dynamics that made it work were very similar to games that focus on building you mentioned.....they are organic to "building" your situation in the game.
In Ultima Online, after getting your but kicked by a large dog, you quickly learn that there is a hierarchy that needs to be followed to gain stature & success in the game. Start fighting the birds till you can take on a dog, then to wolves, then to weak monsters, etc, etc. But to do so, you also need to find a way to monitize your bird / dog fighting to get the armor / weapon you need to take on low level monsters....who drop small amounts of gold. Once you work your way up to larger monsters, then you can start saving money for a home of your own (a small one at that).
Point being, there was a more natural order of things required to be successful in the game that sufficiently motivated players from one task to the other, from one part of the map to the other, without the need of visible markers over NPCs, or waypoint arrows directing you in which direction you need to go.
The simple fact is that the reason so many have adopted the more explicit quest based progression sysystem is because it catches the most potential gamers in the net....more specifically, its more palatable for casual gamers than Ultima's (figure it out) system.
The downfall, however, is that the quest based progression system (as opposed to a more organic system like UO) is uniform...not only throughout the game, but throughout most modern MMORPGs. Considering how fast it is to level up 1 character, most folks playing WOW have several toons they've run the same old quests several times....and are experiencing fatigue.
They go to a new MMO, thinking things will be different, and find that they are just as tired with that game as they were with WOW....only after a month of playing. Why? Because you've been run through the quest grinder one too many times.
The trick is to combine simple tools effectively; leaving the door open to revisiting old paradigms, not just from the perspective of what they are but what they could be. Future-proof everything, and stay true to source. Consider the possibility of failure in success, and success in failure. Remember that the way up is the way down. With these in mind, I think we can move light-years beyond "kill 10 rats" into "should I kill 10 rats and how will it affect the balance of the world I live in?".
Some alternative ideas: 1. Gather m resources, and depending on what resources are gathered, x group of hostile enemies appear 2. Disrupt a gathering between hostile groups y and z. Depending on what group is eliminated first, find treasure t 3. Kill enemies from a possible list. Those you kill join your side against hostile force v 4. Escort ally a while she finishes task g, but if the ally dies you will take her place to complete the task 5. Attack a powerful enemy while directing reinforcements of various strength, but after a given length of time the reinforcements turn against you 6. Direct hostile group y while they attack allies a and b 7. Kill enemy group x that recursively spawns hostile types a, b, c, and d 8. Kill more enemies in group x than your ally 9. Kill group x, that is being guarded by group y, without harming group y 10. Face waves of enemies that become successively easier every time you die, but have your rewards based on the level of difficulty you successfully overcome; this is a step along the way toward a greater goal 11. Procure a list of goods with a set reward for finishing the list, with the option to purchase some of the goods from another vendor 12. Escort a courier through dangerous territory, with the option of betraying the courier and redirecting the delivery. Have each outcome appear to be equally beneficial.
None of these need be instanced.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
My bigger concern than the quests are now that all these new MMOs feel obligated to force a story on us, and when we finish the story the game is pretty much over.
I quit playing Rift because I was tired of the kill 50 orcs and bring me 20 orc knee caps. I'm tired of most of the questing in MMOs being the same style of quest. I think I may be burnt out on themepark games in general. I have returned to play Runescape. I enjoy playing in the sandbox. I also enjoy that the quests are difficult and unique. It makes for a better MMO IMHO.
Because alot player want those easy quest so current designer alway have job
And they will milk it forever hahaha, to infinity and beyond
The main problem here are MMORPG nowadays have too many trash quests.
They are unnecessary.
There are more simple way to created quest that have it value.
Like OP said "kill bugs 0/6" it's a type of brainless quest
Why don't change it to repeatable "trade 6 bug antenna for 1 silver"
It mean you can stay at bug field , kill and collect many antenna as you want ,
then go back and trade each 6 of them for 1 silver.
IF they want to make it brainless , then make it truely brainless , don't add some thing unnecessary
Well you're right that most quests in MMORPG are throwaway quests with little thought involved.
But implying the "kill x" objective itself is brainless completely misses the potential depth that it can have.
For example in Deus Ex:HR your first quest is basically "Kill 1 terrorist." That one quest has quite a bit of depth regarding how you approach it. You can be stealthy or rambo. You can kill everyone, some people, or you can make it all the way to the target without killing anyone (including the target.) The objective is simple, but there are so many factors involved in achieving it that the game is fun.
The best MMORPG quests have at least a little of this depth; monster variety and class rotations are gameplay you need to optimize to achieve the most success (fastest completion, lowest risk of death, etc.) This is why it's an incredible failure when games like SWTOR or WAR have no mob variety, because relying solely on class rotations causes things to get old fast. It's also why even better quests tend to be the ones related to dungeons and raids, because they force you against the most tactically interesting mobs a game offers.
Even so it's typically not at the caliber of playing through something like Deus Ex and I agree that we could use less throwaway trash quests and more quality ones. I don't think I'd do away with the throwaway ones entirely though; it's nice to have an easy option for questing, as long as it provides rewards which are fitting of the difficulty.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
There have been "attempts" made by developers to increase diversity in how XP is gained such as allowing you to level through crafting or just playing pvp. This is a solid alternative and really the only one i could see, however it has yet to be done efficiently to the point where it would be viable to actually level like that instead of quests. So far quests have been the quickest way to progress to level cap and if thats the case then that will be what people do in the interest of time.
If xp gain was = time spent across say quests, crafting, and pvp scenarios then that would make players happier overall. Though I think a combination of the 3 to level is the best way to have an enjoyable experience, at least for me since i would find it dull to just craft to level or quest only etc.
They are examples of that it can be done .. i didn't say it is done well. Obviously STO & TOR questing is lacking compared to games like Dishonored and Bioshock.
However, i don't see a big technological barrier to do the kind of bioshock & dishonor type story questing in instances like what STO has done. They just need better writers, more scripting & animation, and stuff like that.
Exactly...a good example.
My cynical mind tells me that developers these days anticipate people using cheat sites, so they don't put enough effort into contextualizing the clues, or making quests more complicated. Early EverQuest was like TSW in a manner of speaking...you sort of had to investigate and search out the quests, but because there wasn't enough clues, most people went to cheat sites. It didn't help that many quests were bugged, so you didn't want to waste time on a quest you couldn't complete.
You'll always have players who go to cheat sites. That shouldn't deter developers from investing time in making a complete and complex questing system.
It depends on what the audience enjoy? If all they want is to have a good excuse to kill stuff, all that work would be wasted.
Look at Bioshock or Dishonored. Great story ... good quests .. but ultimately it is excuses to kill stuff.
I don't think many people enjoy figuring things out .. or search for things.
Personally i have done my share of graph paper mapping before ...finding stuff is just not fun to me .. and msot of the time it is just boring time search .. no challenge at all.
And puzzles .. i do like some puzzle (like physical puzzles), but i can get good puzzle games somewhere other than MMO. "The ROOM" is a nice puzzle game, for example. And puzzle game to me, is more a solo kind of thing.
And when you think about it, that is essentially what all mythological quests boil down to. I think people wouldn't mind quests of this sort if the players had more freedom in deciding HOW to complete the quests.
Take the Labors of Hercules for example, specifically his Fifth labor.. He is to clean out the Augean Stables in one day...essentially a 'collect cow manure' quest. It's a timed quest. But how he completes it is up to him. Rather than grab a shovel and start pitching out the crap, he diverts a stream and floods the stables to wash them clean.
I firmly believe that if players were given more freedom in how to complete quests, they'd be much more enjoyable.
Yes, this reminds me of Quest for Glory. For those of you too young to remember or for some inexplicable reason never played one, it is of the greatest PC RPG's.
Here's an example of gameplay:
You go to the healers house and she won't sell you anything or give you information, but she blabbers on about her lost ring. You look around her cottage but don't see anything, but a bird is chirping in the window.
Now, this was before the internets was for peoples. So you had to know that birds are attracted to shiney things.
Outside her cottage was a tree with a large branch and a bird's nest in it. You see an occasional sparkle if you wait for it.
You can climb the tree if your climbing skills are high enough. And see what's in the nest.
Or if you were too weak to climb, and you had found the fetch spell, you could cast that and it would retrive the nest for you.
Or if you weren't magically inclined or agile enough to climb, you could just throw things at it and knock it down.
Of course, this is all awesome and fun, but the internet would ruin it. Because a single spoiler destroys all the gameplay options. That's where TSW went wrong. Their quests require you to play detective, but instead of having all the clues available in gmae, they make you google it and that just ruins it.
Exactly...a good example.
My cynical mind tells me that developers these days anticipate people using cheat sites, so they don't put enough effort into contextualizing the clues, or making quests more complicated. Early EverQuest was like TSW in a manner of speaking...you sort of had to investigate and search out the quests, but because there wasn't enough clues, most people went to cheat sites. It didn't help that many quests were bugged, so you didn't want to waste time on a quest you couldn't complete.
You'll always have players who go to cheat sites. That shouldn't deter developers from investing time in making a complete and complex questing system.
Personally, I would like to have tried and failed a puzzle quest than to not have had a puzzle quest to try in the first place.I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Most people just skip the quest text, so to them its all the same.if you read my example a page back there would not need to be any quest text at all really
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Harder according to whom? And if you make fewer quest, people are going to bitch there's not enough content. And don't act like any quest will be long enough for a guy who sits on a pc all day and plays these games. I think that's the issue. You have a put a good amount of these quest in for the locust who will simply destory the content at an alarming rate.
Also, what you're describing was pretty much done in TSW. There were investigation quest in which the in game browser was pretty much a necessity. Issue there is, there is absolutly no reply value to that type of quest. Once the riddle or issue is solved, it turns into the same type of quest you don't like. Go find Nax and get his tail. It's a fetch quest now. And the community can't be trusted to keep secrets regarding quest. I saw it in TSW - people would ask where something was and someone would tell them... killing the whole point.
It seems the dev's keep going back to these quest because liked or not, they are at least solid and give the player something to do.
For me it all boils down to satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I get neither of these questing in themepark style games. There is no penalty for dying and no sense of danger in these games. Its all about getting through the same mind numbing content as fast as possible. Last night I was playing Dark Souls and it took me 2+ hours to kill the boss I was on. I died over and over and over again, losing more and more of the progress I made with each death. But, when I finally killed that bastard, I let out a triumphant shout (and busted out a sweet victory dance) that could have woke the neighbors. It's called satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, and I realized I have not had this feeling from an MMO since bounty hunting jedi (back when they were alpha) in SWG. I remember 1-2 hour long battles with jedi that would sprawl an entire planet, breaking a couple sets of armor in the process. Nothing beat that feeling of taking out an alpha class after an epic battle. Again, satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. I think this is what is lacking in the MMOs of today. I used to get that feeling killing raid bosses in MMOs, but after you have done it once it isn't quite the same on the 20th attempt to get drop X from Boss Y.
-Pixel
Of course it does depend on what playstyle one prefers. Presumabably if a developer is making a quest game, then it is for those who enjoy the idea of questing. My suggestion is for improving questing dynamics, not an attempt to say one playstyle is better than another. In this case, the work would not be wasted.
I agree with you mate, ur absolutely right. The feeling you described I had too playing Lineage 2. Good old times, things were actually tough and hard to get and the harder something is the greater it feels once you finally have it.
I actually even prefer grinding mobs rather than quest-grind. At least that way I can make some friends while grinding with others.
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
Oh wait, you mean you don't like doing the /faceroll dungeon finder queues where no one talks except to insult someone's dps?
i get the sense of danger aspect but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.. sure there are games like dark souls and such that are hard but overall easier games sell better nowadays... but you can still have content that is not frustratingly hard and have consequence and give you some sort of satisfaction..
for me devs could follow a few things to make PVE more interesting without being more frustrating
1. Make mobs all have some purpose.. the zoo setup(as one poster here says) where basically mobs are just out on display for no purpose. Make mobs engaging, make then doing things, make them actually feel like they are apart of the world.
2. Make the world interactive.. using my example from the previous page.. allow players to take over areas that are controlled by hostile mobs, allow them to build in these areas, but also make there be a reason to do this. Make it so by taking over said area and building up a town or fort you get certain things like new trade routes or new items you couldn't get otherwise. Also add in ways the mobs would take back player made areas unless the area had constant protection from players and such. You could also add in random weather disasters in an area that could level a player made town or have invasions by the original hostile owners and so forth.
There is a lot of things devs can do to make leveling in a game more interesting, I feel gw2 did a good first step towards a better leveling experience and hope future MMOs take things a step further to really flesh out a dynamic feeling world.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
"but the issue for a good majority if things are difficult they get frustrated and quit.."
I understand exactly what you are saying, but to be perfectly honest I could give a crap about the "majority". If the majority wants kiddie hand hold games, they can choose to play just about ANY of the MMOs out right now. Can't we just have one good difficult game that kicks our asses? Am I asking too much?
The best questing game is still the first questing game and the one with the name in the title. Everquest. The reason why is because it was a group orientated game, you actually had to read the quests and figure out what to do.
There were only a few mechanics in the game, give item to NPC or combine items into a bag to make another item and give that to a NPC. Add the fact that you could give something and lose it and have to start all over again, that meant there was big time cooperation amongst the player base.
Entire game sites were developed just to deam with EQ's many quests and most of them are still going strong today.
But as soon as WOW came out, that changed all that. No longer did people want to actually read quests or spend a good deal of time on them. . So you have the NPCs with ! over their heads.
But even that wasn't enough. LOTRO took it to a new low. Not only did you not have to read the quests or even look for the NPCs, but now you have the quest map, the mini map quest indicator, the game map quest indicator, the quest update thing that flashes on your screen when you loot a goat bladder, and you can even mouse over the mobs to see if they are needed for your little fed ex quests.
The problem isn't the design, it's that the players don't want to spend time on quests anymore in and themepark game. If you remembered, EQ level 1-50 had no required level for loot. That is something no game has had since. Why spend a week on a quest at level 20 when the item reward will be gone in about two hours of game play.
The removal of item level requirements is the first step to getting back to interesting quests. The next step is to break the zone/F2P mentality of the design process so you do not have a NPC who has a problem that happens to involve goat bladders which exist 200 meters from him and he needs your help.
Yes, you can have ONE.
Diablo 3 hard core perma death on MP10. That certainly will kick your ass(es).
they made that its called wizardry online and its umm well yea..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Actually, Ultima Online (and for the most part, Lineage 2) worked well without an progression system being dependent on a quest system.
The dynamics that made it work were very similar to games that focus on building you mentioned.....they are organic to "building" your situation in the game.
In Ultima Online, after getting your but kicked by a large dog, you quickly learn that there is a hierarchy that needs to be followed to gain stature & success in the game. Start fighting the birds till you can take on a dog, then to wolves, then to weak monsters, etc, etc. But to do so, you also need to find a way to monitize your bird / dog fighting to get the armor / weapon you need to take on low level monsters....who drop small amounts of gold. Once you work your way up to larger monsters, then you can start saving money for a home of your own (a small one at that).
Point being, there was a more natural order of things required to be successful in the game that sufficiently motivated players from one task to the other, from one part of the map to the other, without the need of visible markers over NPCs, or waypoint arrows directing you in which direction you need to go.
The simple fact is that the reason so many have adopted the more explicit quest based progression sysystem is because it catches the most potential gamers in the net....more specifically, its more palatable for casual gamers than Ultima's (figure it out) system.
The downfall, however, is that the quest based progression system (as opposed to a more organic system like UO) is uniform...not only throughout the game, but throughout most modern MMORPGs. Considering how fast it is to level up 1 character, most folks playing WOW have several toons they've run the same old quests several times....and are experiencing fatigue.
They go to a new MMO, thinking things will be different, and find that they are just as tired with that game as they were with WOW....only after a month of playing. Why? Because you've been run through the quest grinder one too many times.
Some alternative ideas:
1. Gather m resources, and depending on what resources are gathered, x group of hostile enemies appear
2. Disrupt a gathering between hostile groups y and z. Depending on what group is eliminated first, find treasure t
3. Kill enemies from a possible list. Those you kill join your side against hostile force v
4. Escort ally a while she finishes task g, but if the ally dies you will take her place to complete the task
5. Attack a powerful enemy while directing reinforcements of various strength, but after a given length of time the reinforcements turn against you
6. Direct hostile group y while they attack allies a and b
7. Kill enemy group x that recursively spawns hostile types a, b, c, and d
8. Kill more enemies in group x than your ally
9. Kill group x, that is being guarded by group y, without harming group y
10. Face waves of enemies that become successively easier every time you die, but have your rewards based on the level of difficulty you successfully overcome; this is a step along the way toward a greater goal
11. Procure a list of goods with a set reward for finishing the list, with the option to purchase some of the goods from another vendor
12. Escort a courier through dangerous territory, with the option of betraying the courier and redirecting the delivery. Have each outcome appear to be equally beneficial.
None of these need be instanced.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Because alot player want those easy quest so current designer alway have job
And they will milk it forever hahaha, to infinity and beyond
The main problem here are MMORPG nowadays have too many trash quests.
They are unnecessary.
There are more simple way to created quest that have it value.
Like OP said "kill bugs 0/6" it's a type of brainless quest
Why don't change it to repeatable "trade 6 bug antenna for 1 silver"
It mean you can stay at bug field , kill and collect many antenna as you want ,
then go back and trade each 6 of them for 1 silver.
IF they want to make it brainless quest , then make it brainless , don't add some thing unneeded
One or 2 main quest for each lv are enough
Other can just repeatable type like collecting item.
I think developer need to know what they should to put in game and what they shouldn't.
Some or enough quest can kill the boring , but if they add too much , they will kill the game .lol
Well you're right that most quests in MMORPG are throwaway quests with little thought involved.
But implying the "kill x" objective itself is brainless completely misses the potential depth that it can have.
For example in Deus Ex:HR your first quest is basically "Kill 1 terrorist." That one quest has quite a bit of depth regarding how you approach it. You can be stealthy or rambo. You can kill everyone, some people, or you can make it all the way to the target without killing anyone (including the target.) The objective is simple, but there are so many factors involved in achieving it that the game is fun.
The best MMORPG quests have at least a little of this depth; monster variety and class rotations are gameplay you need to optimize to achieve the most success (fastest completion, lowest risk of death, etc.) This is why it's an incredible failure when games like SWTOR or WAR have no mob variety, because relying solely on class rotations causes things to get old fast. It's also why even better quests tend to be the ones related to dungeons and raids, because they force you against the most tactically interesting mobs a game offers.
Even so it's typically not at the caliber of playing through something like Deus Ex and I agree that we could use less throwaway trash quests and more quality ones. I don't think I'd do away with the throwaway ones entirely though; it's nice to have an easy option for questing, as long as it provides rewards which are fitting of the difficulty.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver