I don't look at it as a bad choice, just an odd one given the IP. Still what makes a good RPG for me is believability, choices add to believability. Considering that yes, a good RPG offers choices. Thankfully acording to PAX previews the PVE offers that sort of believability, of course at the cost of phasing the experience. I can take that bad with the good such believeability brings.
As for the race locks, it adds to some believablity given the story behind the game ( a typical open ended system similar to TES wouldn't: will explain), that said yes I'm aware the story is created to support the systems, that much is obvious. A different story would lend itself better to TES's formulas.
Now that's where the odd comes in given the IP, why focus on PVP? . As PVP simply isn't open to as wide of a demographic. That's what doesn't make sense here to me.
Why I think a typical TES system would detract from believability is due to the game as it stands, however it got there, this is the game, and the story supporting it. The rules dictacted the design and the story, that points to the game being the first priority IP second. Now that most likely would have someone thinking, why use the IP at all? I'd say it's to contrast the basic design, offset losses at end-game with high early turn around? Possibly.
Why did they choose RvR-style PvP is indeed a good question, I don't think I've heard the answer to that one and I am also curious.
But I think that decission was made before they hired Matt Firor. They most likely hired Matt because they had made that decission. I seriously doubt they had no idea which way they wanted to go, hired Matt by chance and then Matt imposed his will on TES as some have argued.
So the creators of the TES IP wanted to make an RvR game...and it seems like an odd choice to some, but I don't see it that way. The TES IP in its single player form has always had undercurrents of racial tension and factions with conflicting agendas. When they decided to create an MMO and added PvP to it--something that is required in all modern MMOs--they used the lore they invented and expanded it to create a period of time when the racial tensions boiled over and 3 hasty alliances with conflictiing agendas came into being.
It's not a bad story. I haven't heard anything that persuades me that this story could or should not exist in the TES universe. The fact that a different story could have been written does not make this one implaussible.
All I see and hear is arguments by people who would have liked to have seen a different style game, arguing against the plaussibility of this story and promoting alternate stories after the fact. They advance alternate stories simply because those other stories fit better into their idea of what type of game this should be.
But the owners of the IP, the creators of this universe chose differently. They chose this way. All I see here is fans being fanatics and because they don't like what they've seen so far, they ascribe all kinds of negative motives to what they chose to do: moneygrubbers.... incompetent fools.... Matt Firor is the devil and he made them do it.
At least the crazyness can, at times, be entertaining.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
But the owners of the IP, the creators of this universe chose differently. They chose this way. All I see here is fans being fanatics and because they don't like what they've seen so far, they ascribe all kinds of negative motives to what they chose to do: moneygrubbers.... incompetent fools.... Matt Firor is the devil and he made them do it.
At least the crazyness can, at times, be entertaining.
I agree, accusations like that are really over the top. Still, if someone is unhappy with the way a game is designed it is definitely ok to voice that disappointment and come up with suggestions how to change the game so more people can enjoy it. And there is nothing wrong with that.
I for one am happy that for you and some others it seems to be the perfect game and you are happy with their decisions. I still hope that Zenimax listens to feedback and adds more options for the PvE gameplay that are more in line with what I expected and hoped to find in the game. So maybe in the end we all can be satisfied, who knows
Look, ALL games have rules. Especially RPGs. Are you really going to sit there and pretend like D&D, EQ, Final Fantasy, etc. don't have rules? Where do you think dice rolling came from?
All games, by definition have rules. RPGs are games by definition. Games are a series of systems by design. Computer games are games created via computer systems (aka programming). Systems are based on rule sets.
You can choose to ignore any of those facts, but they aren't going anywhere.
Trying to show me a game without rules, is basically trying to show me a game without gameplay.
I played a number of ruleless story based tabletop RPG games when I was younger. Don't believe if you want but not all RPG games have rules. Can I provide examples? If I had a better memory perhaps but I can't be bothered to find examples. If you cannot understand how a story telling RPG game works then that is up to you.
But again, arguing over rules is missing the point of the disagrement. The point isn't that the game has rules, it is that they are uneccessary restrictions on the freedom of the TES world. They are not required but have been chosen. Some think that is ok some don't.
I don't see the point of faction locking races. Why? Because it restricts the game and doesn't add to it. It is all negative and no positive. Sure some can disagree but it seems the disagreement comes from the fact it supports the DOAC 3 wway PvP fight in the middle which personally I could care less about. If I do choose to engage in the PvP then the faction I fight for is the faction I fight for. The fact I can't freely choose my race is my problem with the design. It is just an imposed restriction for purely mechanical reasons and if you sit back and look at those mechanics you would realise they don't have to be enforced at the racial level.
You don't fight for your race but your faction. So the important choice is which faction. So if race isn't an important choice why restrict people from choosing freely. It just doesn't add anything but takes stuff away.
Rules make games fun, without rules there is no game..
Quit complaining about race limitation, and faction lock,... rules have been around since you were 7 years old playing candy land.. get over it.
Thx, have a great day.
i totally agree with you ! cant stand anymore of these goldenspoon yungsters whining i want this i want that cause i just get what i want. theres plenty of different games around there with different rules and limitations , one should not mold one game to himself when there is another fish in the sea.
I thought Zenimaxe owned Bethesda. It was in fact created by Bethesda co-founder Christopher Weaver as an umbrella coorporation. Bethesda, ID games, Arkane studios and several others are subsidiaries of Zenimax.
Is there a conspiracy you have information on that we don't know about?
"First of all, it’s so we’re not treading on Bethesda Game Studios’ heels. BGS needs the leeway to continue their amazing series of single-player games without getting boxed in"
Well, if they are owned by the same company created by the blah blah of blah, then why the worry about Besthesda continuing, or boxing them in...they are the same.
Is there a conspiracy? Do you have information on that we don't know about? Because you seem sure its one entity in union behind TESO...
All that and without even bringing up the PAX articles on this very site where they are speaking with the makers of TESO about the 1st person addition and opening up other factions at 50+ due to pressure from Zenimax from the massive TES fan outrage.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I agree, accusations like that are really over the top. Still, if someone is unhappy with the way a game is designed it is definitely ok to voice that disappointment and come up with suggestions how to change the game so more people can enjoy it. And there is nothing wrong with that.
I for one am happy that for you and some others it seems to be the perfect game and you are happy with their decisions. I still hope that Zenimax listens to feedback and adds more options for the PvE gameplay that are more in line with what I expected and hoped to find in the game. So maybe in the end we all can be satisfied, who knows
Want a simple suggestion.
Faction isn't chosen at character creation, it is done within the game once you have an understanding of what each faction is fighting for. Till you choose a faction you cannot enter Cyrodil and join the fight. But you can tracel the world exploring, working, trading, engaging other players. Then, if you feel a need to fight for a side you choose it by fulfilling a series of recruitment quests and then choose your faction. When you are accepted you are limited to exploration of your factions 'home territories' and Cyrodil. Faction choice is a hard lock once decided upon. You could perhaps offer reversals of the faction lock such as betrayal quests but it should, once made, be understood it is a final choice and very difficult to change sides.
How could you achieve that? Well first remove faction choice from character creation, next put in a quest line for each race for recruitment. Have portals for exploration pre faction choice...it is possible.
I asked once do people think they fight for the faction or the race? The game is designed so you fight for your faction so your race is simply a system mechanic to split the 9 races evenly. So if race isn't a real determination in the fight there is no real need to have it locked. And if there is no real need to have it locked then the only reason it is is a system mechanic. Can ssytem mechanics change? Sure. So if it was to change I can't see any valid reason to complain.
Can ssytem mechanics change? Sure. So if it was to change I can't see any valid reason to complain.
But it wont change, they have stated repeatedly (and its on the TESO site) that they still believe what they believed when making DaoC, that they dont think players are smart enough to be able to tell who they are fighting unless there is a clearly defined look to each faction. This is why they make games with such vast limitations, they think their players are dumb.
Did they say they dont think players are SMART enough? Not the word smart, but the implication for feeling the need to make each faction look vastly different and provide a CLEAR looking enemy points to them thinking it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I thought Zenimaxe owned Bethesda. It was in fact created by Bethesda co-founder Christopher Weaver as an umbrella coorporation. Bethesda, ID games, Arkane studios and several others are subsidiaries of Zenimax.
Is there a conspiracy you have information on that we don't know about?
"First of all, it’s so we’re not treading on Bethesda Game Studios’ heels. BGS needs the leeway to continue their amazing series of single-player games without getting boxed in"
Well, if they are owned by the same company created by the blah blah of blah, then why the worry about Besthesda continuing, or boxing them in...they are the same.
Is there a conspiracy? Do you have information on that we don't know about? Because you seem sure its one entity in union behind TESO...
All that and without even bringing up the PAX articles on this very site where they are speaking with the makers of TESO about the 1st person addition and opening up other factions at 50+ due to pressure from Zenimax from the massive TES fan outrage.
Translation: "Yes, there will be another TES single player game. That's why ESO is being developed Zenimax Studios."
Zenimax has been around since 1999 as the parent company for Bethesda: i.e. Zenimax Media owns Bethesda just like they own Zenimax Studios, a new production company created by them to work exclusively on ESO...using the IP they own. This isn't Bioware licensing SW from Lucas. Zenimax Media owns it all.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Can ssytem mechanics change? Sure. So if it was to change I can't see any valid reason to complain.
But it wont change, they have stated repeatedly (and its on the TESO site) that they still believe what they believed when making DaoC, that they dont think players are smart enough to be able to tell who they are fighting unless there is a clearly defined look to each faction. This is why they make games with such vast limitations, they think their players are dumb.
Did they say they dont think players are SMART enough? Not the word smart, but the implication for feeling the need to make each faction look vastly different and provide a CLEAR looking enemy points to them thinking it.
Hm, there are a few options to easily mark the enemy without having to rely on racial appearances being hugely different. Have a small icon next to the enemy's healthbar that displays that faction's emblem. Colour code them. Have faction specific armor sets that display the emblem on the chest piece.
Btw, I also don't think that except for the beast races the other humanoid races look that much different anyway, at least not when in full armor wearing plate or long flowing robes.
I also support Maelwydds suggestion, I pointed out something ismilar in another thread a while back. I am sure it can be done without touching their core mechanics.
Can ssytem mechanics change? Sure. So if it was to change I can't see any valid reason to complain.
But it wont change, they have stated repeatedly (and its on the TESO site) that they still believe what they believed when making DaoC, that they dont think players are smart enough to be able to tell who they are fighting unless there is a clearly defined look to each faction. This is why they make games with such vast limitations, they think their players are dumb.
Did they say they dont think players are SMART enough? Not the word smart, but the implication for feeling the need to make each faction look vastly different and provide a CLEAR looking enemy points to them thinking it.
Hm, there are a few options to easily mark the enemy without having to rely on racial appearances being hugely different. Have a small icon next to the enemy's healthbar that displays that faction's emblem. Colour code them. Have faction specific armor sets that display the emblem on the chest piece.
Btw, I also don't think that except for the beast races the other humanoid races look that much different anyway, at least not when in full armor wearing plate or long flowing robes.
I also support Maelwydds suggestion, I pointed out something ismilar in another thread a while back. I am sure it can be done without touching their core mechanics.
The problem with that is that it lacks credibility. You're superimposing a game-play decision on a story. What would be the story that creates a believable environment where individual choice is a more powerful motive for putting your life on the line than regional, racial, family, etc., allegiances? Even religious wars typically have regional and/or racial components to them.
No. You guys are willing to sacrifice plot for gameplay. That would be a transparetn ploy.
Looks is not a persuasive argument for me for the separation either, especially since, as you say the humans all look pretty similar. That's beside the point to me.
Invent a believable scenario that allows an even-split of Bretons, 33% per faction, and I'll listen. But I can' conceive of a 3-way split where you're more likely to choose randomly than go along with what your family and neighbours in your village/city/region are doing.
EDIT: actually, here, I'll make it easy for you: Make available a very limited number of renegade slots for purchase at a suitably costly amount so that only true believers would pay the extra cash. That I could buy...not literally, I wouldn't purchase it, but if the number of traitors is small enough I could buy into the idea.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't look at it as a bad choice, just an odd one given the IP. Still what makes a good RPG for me is believability, choices add to believability. Considering that yes, a good RPG offers choices. Thankfully acording to PAX previews the PVE offers that sort of believability, of course at the cost of phasing the experience. I can take that bad with the good such believeability brings.
As for the race locks, it adds to some believablity given the story behind the game ( a typical open ended system similar to TES wouldn't: will explain), that said yes I'm aware the story is created to support the systems, that much is obvious. A different story would lend itself better to TES's formulas.
Now that's where the odd comes in given the IP, why focus on PVP? . As PVP simply isn't open to as wide of a demographic. That's what doesn't make sense here to me.
Why I think a typical TES system would detract from believability is due to the game as it stands, however it got there, this is the game, and the story supporting it. The rules dictacted the design and the story, that points to the game being the first priority IP second. Now that most likely would have someone thinking, why use the IP at all? I'd say it's to contrast the basic design, offset losses at end-game with high early turn around? Possibly.
Why did they choose RvR-style PvP is indeed a good question, I don't think I've heard the answer to that one and I am also curious.
But I think that decission was made before they hired Matt Firor. They most likely hired Matt because they had made that decission. I seriously doubt they had no idea which way they wanted to go, hired Matt by chance and then Matt imposed his will on TES as some have argued.
So the creators of the TES IP wanted to make an RvR game...and it seems like an odd choice to some, but I don't see it that way. The TES IP in its single player form has always had undercurrents of racial tension and factions with conflicting agendas. When they decided to create an MMO and added PvP to it--something that is required in all modern MMOs--they used the lore they invented and expanded it to create a period of time when the racial tensions boiled over and 3 hasty alliances with conflictiing agendas came into being.
It's not a bad story. I haven't heard anything that persuades me that this story could or should not exist in the TES universe. The fact that a different story could have been written does not make this one implaussible.
All I see and hear is arguments by people who would have liked to have seen a different style game, arguing against the plaussibility of this story and promoting alternate stories after the fact. They advance alternate stories simply because those other stories fit better into their idea of what type of game this should be.
But the owners of the IP, the creators of this universe chose differently. They chose this way. All I see here is fans being fanatics and because they don't like what they've seen so far, they ascribe all kinds of negative motives to what they chose to do: moneygrubbers.... incompetent fools.... Matt Firor is the devil and he made them do it.
At least the crazyness can, at times, be entertaining.
I don't see many inherent flaws in the story setup, I'm actually glad to see something a little different done with the lore myself. Be it Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim, while they have different villians they've always had essentially the same plot. The plot here as well as motivation is different.I can welcome that if done well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm new to this forum, but what brought me to this forum was the possibility of CU. I have not seriously gamed for awhile, but I've been enjoying gaming for a long time.
One thing that remains a constant tho are people who will complain / whine / attack / and or bully other people and or companies just because of the anonymous position of being safely hidden behind a screen or because that's simply how they find their enjoyment.
There are rules to everything, IG and RL.
This is not a flame just a reflection of someone who has weathered the many changes in online life. You log in, and you have a choice....be yourself or put on a different face, it's your choice, neither choice is wrong or right after all it is ultimately your experience.
Beware the changes yet to come tho. We are progressively evolving as our lives get faster and technology leaps and dances in front of us marching along while we struggle to deal with last weeks advancements which are now obsolete before we can even register the change let alone master it.
Games are supposed to be fun, something we do to de-stress and enjoy ourselves...not add to our stress.
Long story short.... If you like the game play, if you don't find a different one. Slow down and breath.....you might find something amazing that you didn't see before because you were moving too fast to notice it.
But it wont change, they have stated repeatedly (and its on the TESO site) that they still believe what they believed when making DaoC, that they dont think players are smart enough to be able to tell who they are fighting unless there is a clearly defined look to each faction. This is why they make games with such vast limitations, they think their players are dumb.
Did they say they dont think players are SMART enough? Not the word smart, but the implication for feeling the need to make each faction look vastly different and provide a CLEAR looking enemy points to them thinking it.
Hm, there are a few options to easily mark the enemy without having to rely on racial appearances being hugely different. Have a small icon next to the enemy's healthbar that displays that faction's emblem. Colour code them. Have faction specific armor sets that display the emblem on the chest piece.
Btw, I also don't think that except for the beast races the other humanoid races look that much different anyway, at least not when in full armor wearing plate or long flowing robes.
I also support Maelwydds suggestion, I pointed out something ismilar in another thread a while back. I am sure it can be done without touching their core mechanics.
I know...which is why no other game copied DaoCs design...but as you will see no doubt from replies from many a DaoC fan, they dont get it, they will never get it, they will defend the DaoC design to no end no matter how many games they have played, no matter how many other players say it isnt needed because they never needed it before.
I believe there is another thread going on this site about how game developers brainwash their players. Which is true. Its the only way a person can think that there must be an invisible wall blocking off faction lands for a person to have pride in their faction...and that races must be apart for the same reason, because mixed races = no pride...speaks volumns about their real life point of views.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
The problem with that is that it lacks credibility. You're superimposing a game-play decision on a story. What would be the story that creates a believable environment where individual choice is a more powerful motive for putting your life on the line than regional, racial, family, etc., allegiances? Even religious wars typically have regional and/or racial components to them.
No. You guys are willing to sacrifice plot for gameplay. That would be a transparetn ploy.
Looks is not a persuasive argument for me for the separation either, especially since, as you say the humans all look pretty similar. That's beside the point to me.
Invent a believable scenario that allows an even-split of Bretons, 33% per faction, and I'll listen. But I can' conceive of a 3-way split where you're more likely to choose randomly than go along with what your family and neighbours in your village/city/region are doing.
EDIT: actually, here, I'll make it easy for you: Make available a very limited number of renegade slots for purchase at a suitably costly amount so that only true believers would pay the extra cash. That I could buy...not literally, I wouldn't purchase it, but if the number of traitors is small enough I could buy into the idea.
What is so unbelievable about each individual being able to join a faction of choice? These wars are not racial. There are idealogical. These fights are not to protect your homeland but to secure the crown. These battles do not take place on your doorstep but in far off Cyrodil.
You arewilling to accept bullshit like every single member of every single race lives in their own little predefined area of the map but are unwilling to see how people might fight for different causes in an idealogical war!!!!!
And so tell me, how will I tell the Elves apart from each other? And the Humans? Will it simply be because they glow red and I can attack them? And that is more believable then having different races join different factions based on the cause the want to follow?
Want a believable scenario for a split? OK. Take an Orc, subjugated, tortured, driven out of his homeland. Give him the choice of assisting his enemy to gain even more power or letting them join another faction to kill, main and cower in fear their long time mortal enemy.
What is so unbelievable about each individual being able to join a faction of choice? These wars are not racial. There are idealogical. These fights are not to protect your homeland but to secure the crown. These battles do not take place on your doorstep but in far off Cyrodil.
You arewilling to accept bullshit like every single member of every single race lives in their own little predefined area of the map but are unwilling to see how people might fight for different causes in an idealogical war!!!!!
And so tell me, how will I tell the Elves apart from each other? And the Humans? Will it simply be because they glow red and I can attack them? And that is more believable then having different races join different factions based on the cause the want to follow?
Want a believable scenario for a split? OK. Take an Orc, subjugated, tortured, driven out of his homeland. Give him the choice of assisting his enemy to gain even more power or letting them join another faction to kill, main and cower in fear their long time mortal enemy.
But there is nothing believable about the game to begin with. This is not the Tamriel simulator you are looking for.
Maybe its just me, but credibility and believable went right out the window when suddenly invisibile walls appeared throughout the land and the races lost the ability to talk to each other.
Also, if it isn't going to be a believable scenario, why would it bother you if people were grouping together in the PvE part of Tamriel without restrictions?
Also, to pick up Iselin's suggestion about a 33% split of Bretons throughout all the factions: It could be possible if the alliances were ideology based rather than based on race choice. You give 3 different flavours, and people wanting to play Breton could choose between them. If those 3 styles are distinct enough and also appealing you might indeed end up with an even split of Breton players.
Just a personal preference of course, but for me it is much more interesting to see a band of diverse people coming together to fight for an ideal than a forced 3 race split.
But there is nothing believable about the game to begin with. This is not the Tamriel simulator you are looking for.
Thanks for making the point about why the game is badly designed.
...
So all of the Tes games are badly designed? That really does not follow from your steadfast determination to force yet more unrealistic features into this mmo.
This thread is hilarious. Everyone is arguing semantics over such a broad term lol.
What about stuff in games? Good or bad?
Because so many people hijack the meaning of things to suit their own purpose.
Such as those referring to design decisions which inherently are fluid, as rules which are inherently rigid - and then illustrating their new, and different point with examples where rules are good and ignoring the examples where they are bad and changing them is good.
So to illustrate;
Design Decisions = Rules = Good Rules (which should not be challenged)
It would be just as valid for me to say;
22 = 2+2 = 4...
Quite the change in subject, relevance and validity isn't it...
... and of course the reason some argue about the semantics of it, when they see people changing the debate to what suits their argument to fits their agenda and not addressing the actual point.
The problem with that is that it lacks credibility. You're superimposing a game-play decision on a story. What would be the story that creates a believable environment where individual choice is a more powerful motive for putting your life on the line than regional, racial, family, etc., allegiances? Even religious wars typically have regional and/or racial components to them.
No. You guys are willing to sacrifice plot for gameplay. That would be a transparetn ploy.
Looks is not a persuasive argument for me for the separation either, especially since, as you say the humans all look pretty similar. That's beside the point to me.
Invent a believable scenario that allows an even-split of Bretons, 33% per faction, and I'll listen. But I can' conceive of a 3-way split where you're more likely to choose randomly than go along with what your family and neighbours in your village/city/region are doing.
EDIT: actually, here, I'll make it easy for you: Make available a very limited number of renegade slots for purchase at a suitably costly amount so that only true believers would pay the extra cash. That I could buy...not literally, I wouldn't purchase it, but if the number of traitors is small enough I could buy into the idea.
Take a look at the American Revolution, where about 20% of the population of the colonies were pro-Crown loyalists. Patriot revolutionaries included about 40% of the population, and neutral or apolitical people numbered 40% as well.
And I guarantee you that you will see Dunmer in the Breton lands, Orcs amongst the High Elf holdings, and Khajits in Nord country. Why? Because the devs aren't going to handicap themselves by having some simplistic racial regime in their PVE scenarios. The NPCs will be mixed, but the players apparantly can't be.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
But there is nothing believable about the game to begin with. This is not the Tamriel simulator you are looking for.
Thanks for making the point about why the game is badly designed.
...
So all of the Tes games are badly designed? That really does not follow from your steadfast determination to force yet more unrealistic features into this mmo.
I am sure you have a point but fucked if I can work out what relevence it has to my post.
I am sure you have a point but fucked if I can work out what relevence it has to my post.
You said essentially "I want to play a Tamriel simulator".
I said "its not a tamriel simulator".
You said "I know, thats why its poorly designed".
I said "None of the ES games have been Tamriel simulators".
You said "I don't know what that has to do with what I said".
Bro, do you even english?
"Bro, do you even english?"
Hmmm...I think my answer is yes.
At no point did I say I wanted a Tamriel simulator. I stated there is zero reason for races to be faction locked.
Ah screw it, you are a Troll, end of talking to you.
LOL. Not at all. Your entire argument is founded on the idea that "faction lock is not realistic". The sad thing is NONE OF THE TES GAMES ARE REALISTIC IN THE SLIGHTEST. You guys who keep going off on "immersion" are completely invalid arguments when you consider the sheer number of horribly immersion breaking things that all of the TES games do, when there is no reason for it. The sheer number in Skyrim alone is staggering.
Eso is a game, whatever rules the developers decide to put in place to facilitate that game is entirely up to them. No different than Redguard still being a TES game.
I am sure you have a point but fucked if I can work out what relevence it has to my post.
You said essentially "I want to play a Tamriel simulator".
I said "its not a tamriel simulator".
You said "I know, thats why its poorly designed".
I said "None of the ES games have been Tamriel simulators".
You said "I don't know what that has to do with what I said".
Bro, do you even english?
"Bro, do you even english?"
Hmmm...I think my answer is yes.
At no point did I say I wanted a Tamriel simulator. I stated there is zero reason for races to be faction locked.
Ah screw it, you are a Troll, end of talking to you.
LOL. Not at all. Your entire argument is founded on the idea that "faction lock is not realistic". The sad thing is NONE OF THE TES GAMES ARE REALISTIC IN THE SLIGHTEST. You guys who keep going off on "immersion" are completely invalid arguments when you consider the sheer number of horribly immersion breaking things that all of the TES games do, when there is no reason for it. The sheer number in Skyrim alone is staggering.
Eso is a game, whatever rules the developers decide to put in place to facilitate that game is entirely up to them. No different than Redguard still being a TES game.
You can't even quote me without twisting my words...
What I say = " there is zero reason for races to be faction locked".
What you think I say = "faction lock is not realistic".
Comments
Why did they choose RvR-style PvP is indeed a good question, I don't think I've heard the answer to that one and I am also curious.
But I think that decission was made before they hired Matt Firor. They most likely hired Matt because they had made that decission. I seriously doubt they had no idea which way they wanted to go, hired Matt by chance and then Matt imposed his will on TES as some have argued.
So the creators of the TES IP wanted to make an RvR game...and it seems like an odd choice to some, but I don't see it that way. The TES IP in its single player form has always had undercurrents of racial tension and factions with conflicting agendas. When they decided to create an MMO and added PvP to it--something that is required in all modern MMOs--they used the lore they invented and expanded it to create a period of time when the racial tensions boiled over and 3 hasty alliances with conflictiing agendas came into being.
It's not a bad story. I haven't heard anything that persuades me that this story could or should not exist in the TES universe. The fact that a different story could have been written does not make this one implaussible.
All I see and hear is arguments by people who would have liked to have seen a different style game, arguing against the plaussibility of this story and promoting alternate stories after the fact. They advance alternate stories simply because those other stories fit better into their idea of what type of game this should be.
But the owners of the IP, the creators of this universe chose differently. They chose this way. All I see here is fans being fanatics and because they don't like what they've seen so far, they ascribe all kinds of negative motives to what they chose to do: moneygrubbers.... incompetent fools.... Matt Firor is the devil and he made them do it.
At least the crazyness can, at times, be entertaining.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I agree, accusations like that are really over the top. Still, if someone is unhappy with the way a game is designed it is definitely ok to voice that disappointment and come up with suggestions how to change the game so more people can enjoy it. And there is nothing wrong with that.
I for one am happy that for you and some others it seems to be the perfect game and you are happy with their decisions. I still hope that Zenimax listens to feedback and adds more options for the PvE gameplay that are more in line with what I expected and hoped to find in the game. So maybe in the end we all can be satisfied, who knows
I played a number of ruleless story based tabletop RPG games when I was younger. Don't believe if you want but not all RPG games have rules. Can I provide examples? If I had a better memory perhaps but I can't be bothered to find examples. If you cannot understand how a story telling RPG game works then that is up to you.
But again, arguing over rules is missing the point of the disagrement. The point isn't that the game has rules, it is that they are uneccessary restrictions on the freedom of the TES world. They are not required but have been chosen. Some think that is ok some don't.
I don't see the point of faction locking races. Why? Because it restricts the game and doesn't add to it. It is all negative and no positive. Sure some can disagree but it seems the disagreement comes from the fact it supports the DOAC 3 wway PvP fight in the middle which personally I could care less about. If I do choose to engage in the PvP then the faction I fight for is the faction I fight for. The fact I can't freely choose my race is my problem with the design. It is just an imposed restriction for purely mechanical reasons and if you sit back and look at those mechanics you would realise they don't have to be enforced at the racial level.
You don't fight for your race but your faction. So the important choice is which faction. So if race isn't an important choice why restrict people from choosing freely. It just doesn't add anything but takes stuff away.
i totally agree with you ! cant stand anymore of these goldenspoon yungsters whining i want this i want that cause i just get what i want. theres plenty of different games around there with different rules and limitations , one should not mold one game to himself when there is another fish in the sea.
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2012/10/18/reading-the-future-of-the-past-in-the-elder-scrolls
"First of all, it’s so we’re not treading on Bethesda Game Studios’ heels. BGS needs the leeway to continue their amazing series of single-player games without getting boxed in"
Well, if they are owned by the same company created by the blah blah of blah, then why the worry about Besthesda continuing, or boxing them in...they are the same.
Is there a conspiracy? Do you have information on that we don't know about? Because you seem sure its one entity in union behind TESO...
All that and without even bringing up the PAX articles on this very site where they are speaking with the makers of TESO about the 1st person addition and opening up other factions at 50+ due to pressure from Zenimax from the massive TES fan outrage.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Want a simple suggestion.
Faction isn't chosen at character creation, it is done within the game once you have an understanding of what each faction is fighting for. Till you choose a faction you cannot enter Cyrodil and join the fight. But you can tracel the world exploring, working, trading, engaging other players. Then, if you feel a need to fight for a side you choose it by fulfilling a series of recruitment quests and then choose your faction. When you are accepted you are limited to exploration of your factions 'home territories' and Cyrodil. Faction choice is a hard lock once decided upon. You could perhaps offer reversals of the faction lock such as betrayal quests but it should, once made, be understood it is a final choice and very difficult to change sides.
How could you achieve that? Well first remove faction choice from character creation, next put in a quest line for each race for recruitment. Have portals for exploration pre faction choice...it is possible.
I asked once do people think they fight for the faction or the race? The game is designed so you fight for your faction so your race is simply a system mechanic to split the 9 races evenly. So if race isn't a real determination in the fight there is no real need to have it locked. And if there is no real need to have it locked then the only reason it is is a system mechanic. Can ssytem mechanics change? Sure. So if it was to change I can't see any valid reason to complain.
But it wont change, they have stated repeatedly (and its on the TESO site) that they still believe what they believed when making DaoC, that they dont think players are smart enough to be able to tell who they are fighting unless there is a clearly defined look to each faction. This is why they make games with such vast limitations, they think their players are dumb.
Did they say they dont think players are SMART enough? Not the word smart, but the implication for feeling the need to make each faction look vastly different and provide a CLEAR looking enemy points to them thinking it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Translation: "Yes, there will be another TES single player game. That's why ESO is being developed Zenimax Studios."
Zenimax has been around since 1999 as the parent company for Bethesda: i.e. Zenimax Media owns Bethesda just like they own Zenimax Studios, a new production company created by them to work exclusively on ESO...using the IP they own. This isn't Bioware licensing SW from Lucas. Zenimax Media owns it all.
But one link deserves another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_Media
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Hm, there are a few options to easily mark the enemy without having to rely on racial appearances being hugely different. Have a small icon next to the enemy's healthbar that displays that faction's emblem. Colour code them. Have faction specific armor sets that display the emblem on the chest piece.
Btw, I also don't think that except for the beast races the other humanoid races look that much different anyway, at least not when in full armor wearing plate or long flowing robes.
I also support Maelwydds suggestion, I pointed out something ismilar in another thread a while back. I am sure it can be done without touching their core mechanics.
The problem with that is that it lacks credibility. You're superimposing a game-play decision on a story. What would be the story that creates a believable environment where individual choice is a more powerful motive for putting your life on the line than regional, racial, family, etc., allegiances? Even religious wars typically have regional and/or racial components to them.
No. You guys are willing to sacrifice plot for gameplay. That would be a transparetn ploy.
Looks is not a persuasive argument for me for the separation either, especially since, as you say the humans all look pretty similar. That's beside the point to me.
Invent a believable scenario that allows an even-split of Bretons, 33% per faction, and I'll listen. But I can' conceive of a 3-way split where you're more likely to choose randomly than go along with what your family and neighbours in your village/city/region are doing.
EDIT: actually, here, I'll make it easy for you: Make available a very limited number of renegade slots for purchase at a suitably costly amount so that only true believers would pay the extra cash. That I could buy...not literally, I wouldn't purchase it, but if the number of traitors is small enough I could buy into the idea.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't see many inherent flaws in the story setup, I'm actually glad to see something a little different done with the lore myself. Be it Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim, while they have different villians they've always had essentially the same plot. The plot here as well as motivation is different.I can welcome that if done well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have not seriously gamed for awhile, but I've been enjoying gaming for a long time.
One thing that remains a constant tho are people who will complain / whine / attack / and or bully other people and or companies just because of the anonymous position of being safely hidden behind a screen or because that's simply how they find their enjoyment.
There are rules to everything, IG and RL.
This is not a flame just a reflection of someone who has weathered the many changes in online life. You log in, and you have a choice....be yourself or put on a different face, it's your choice, neither choice is wrong or right after all it is ultimately your experience.
Beware the changes yet to come tho. We are progressively evolving as our lives get faster and technology leaps and dances in front of us marching along while we struggle to deal with last weeks advancements which are now obsolete before we can even register the change let alone master it.
Games are supposed to be fun, something we do to de-stress and enjoy ourselves...not add to our stress.
Long story short.... If you like the game play, if you don't find a different one. Slow down and breath.....you might find something amazing that you didn't see before because you were moving too fast to notice it.
Have a great day!
I know...which is why no other game copied DaoCs design...but as you will see no doubt from replies from many a DaoC fan, they dont get it, they will never get it, they will defend the DaoC design to no end no matter how many games they have played, no matter how many other players say it isnt needed because they never needed it before.
I believe there is another thread going on this site about how game developers brainwash their players. Which is true. Its the only way a person can think that there must be an invisible wall blocking off faction lands for a person to have pride in their faction...and that races must be apart for the same reason, because mixed races = no pride...speaks volumns about their real life point of views.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
What is so unbelievable about each individual being able to join a faction of choice? These wars are not racial. There are idealogical. These fights are not to protect your homeland but to secure the crown. These battles do not take place on your doorstep but in far off Cyrodil.
You arewilling to accept bullshit like every single member of every single race lives in their own little predefined area of the map but are unwilling to see how people might fight for different causes in an idealogical war!!!!!
And so tell me, how will I tell the Elves apart from each other? And the Humans? Will it simply be because they glow red and I can attack them? And that is more believable then having different races join different factions based on the cause the want to follow?
Want a believable scenario for a split? OK. Take an Orc, subjugated, tortured, driven out of his homeland. Give him the choice of assisting his enemy to gain even more power or letting them join another faction to kill, main and cower in fear their long time mortal enemy.
But there is nothing believable about the game to begin with. This is not the Tamriel simulator you are looking for.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Thanks for making the point about why the game is badly designed.
Maybe its just me, but credibility and believable went right out the window when suddenly invisibile walls appeared throughout the land and the races lost the ability to talk to each other.
Also, if it isn't going to be a believable scenario, why would it bother you if people were grouping together in the PvE part of Tamriel without restrictions?
Also, to pick up Iselin's suggestion about a 33% split of Bretons throughout all the factions: It could be possible if the alliances were ideology based rather than based on race choice. You give 3 different flavours, and people wanting to play Breton could choose between them. If those 3 styles are distinct enough and also appealing you might indeed end up with an even split of Breton players.
Just a personal preference of course, but for me it is much more interesting to see a band of diverse people coming together to fight for an ideal than a forced 3 race split.
...
So all of the Tes games are badly designed? That really does not follow from your steadfast determination to force yet more unrealistic features into this mmo.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Because so many people hijack the meaning of things to suit their own purpose.
Such as those referring to design decisions which inherently are fluid, as rules which are inherently rigid - and then illustrating their new, and different point with examples where rules are good and ignoring the examples where they are bad and changing them is good.
So to illustrate;
Design Decisions = Rules = Good Rules (which should not be challenged)
It would be just as valid for me to say;
22 = 2+2 = 4...
Quite the change in subject, relevance and validity isn't it...
... and of course the reason some argue about the semantics of it, when they see people changing the debate to what suits their argument to fits their agenda and not addressing the actual point.
Take a look at the American Revolution, where about 20% of the population of the colonies were pro-Crown loyalists. Patriot revolutionaries included about 40% of the population, and neutral or apolitical people numbered 40% as well.
And I guarantee you that you will see Dunmer in the Breton lands, Orcs amongst the High Elf holdings, and Khajits in Nord country. Why? Because the devs aren't going to handicap themselves by having some simplistic racial regime in their PVE scenarios. The NPCs will be mixed, but the players apparantly can't be.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I am sure you have a point but fucked if I can work out what relevence it has to my post.
You said essentially "I want to play a Tamriel simulator".
I said "its not a tamriel simulator".
You said "I know, thats why its poorly designed".
I said "None of the ES games have been Tamriel simulators".
You said "I don't know what that has to do with what I said".
Bro, do you even english?
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
"Bro, do you even english?"
Hmmm...I think my answer is yes.
At no point did I say I wanted a Tamriel simulator. I stated there is zero reason for races to be faction locked.
Ah screw it, you are a Troll, end of talking to you.
LOL. Not at all. Your entire argument is founded on the idea that "faction lock is not realistic". The sad thing is NONE OF THE TES GAMES ARE REALISTIC IN THE SLIGHTEST. You guys who keep going off on "immersion" are completely invalid arguments when you consider the sheer number of horribly immersion breaking things that all of the TES games do, when there is no reason for it. The sheer number in Skyrim alone is staggering.
Eso is a game, whatever rules the developers decide to put in place to facilitate that game is entirely up to them. No different than Redguard still being a TES game.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
You can't even quote me without twisting my words...
What I say = " there is zero reason for races to be faction locked".
What you think I say = "faction lock is not realistic".
Go away troll.