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If there was a vision and passion...
taus01
Member Posts: 1,352
...then there would be a lot more to show than what we have seen so far. If he really had that much passion then he definately is not showing it either in the pitch video or in any of the updates. If there is all this own money waiting to get thrown in, then why not put your money where your mouth is and develop a prototype that we can look at.
1. Unique and self developed game engine.
If that is indeed true and not just a tech demo of character instancing which you can throw together with the DX DevKit from Microsoft in a few hours, then they should be able to show this engine in action. As for that little character instancing video, well, you can get source code in DX9 here or if you prefer OpenGL you can read up on its implementation here. It's to say the least, a trivial excercise.
They have not even been able to setup a production pipeline to get their one and only character into the engine they developed. Come on guys, really, you develop a custom engine and you did not integrate your asset pipeline?
2. Design Documents and Concept Art
The little concept art we have seen is basically something any half decent artist on deviantart can deliver in a day or two. What are these people doing all day with their expensive equipment we see in the videos? As far as i can tell, there is one character and they got that one into 3D and not even into their engine yet.
All the game design documents seem to be in his head, not on paper because they sound vague and unrefined. Sure, you don't need all of that in detail but there should at least be a solid foundation to understand what features this game will have.
The foundation principles posted on their webpage are nothing but ideas and vague descriptions of functionality for the game. They need to be put into measurable terms to qualify as design principles.
I am not going to back this project. I am just not convinced at this point. All i see is an ageing one trick pony game developer that has not done anything relevant since his initial lucky strike.
flame away | taus01
PS: You might want to click on my signature to see what ONE passionate game developer can do making a prototype. You seriously want to tell me Mark can not do this?
Comments
What would a prototype of a character model running around in the engine do to allay your concerns?
Edit: That game you linked looks neat; I hope it funds. It also had one guy work on it for a year seriously, plus however much time before that. It was a labour of love turned into something commercial. It has had a lot of time to cook up a working demo, and it does look nice. Comparing it to CU is a bit unfair, though, given it has not even entered the phase this has.
I am talking about a game prototype with UI and working animations, combat etc. A prototype like the ones i listed ( Amnesia Fortnight or the game in my Signature).
That would convince me of the passion and vision behind this project.
Whether or not we agree with the OP, this is clearly a somewhat common sentiment. CSE needs to start putting out more information if they want more pledges.
Edit: In regards to a working prototype for the game, I don't think that is necessary. This is a kickstarter. Not every project that launches on kickstarter does so after a working prototype has already been developed. That said, it is clearly your choice whether or not you wish to back a project in its conceptual stages.
The most funded game on Kickstarter ever (the new Torment) did so by showing a few screenshots and some guys talking about it. So yes, clearly a working demo or prototype is not needed.
Edit: But, on the other hand, it would be nice.
See, this is where i have my problem. A prototype is not needed but for a game developer of his reputation it should be easy to make one.
A project asking for $2 million in the very early concept stagges with virtually no art assets or design documents.
A project asking for $2 million that can not produce a simple prototype that a group of regular game developers can create in 2 weeks or a single person with a lot of passion can create for his project.
If they would ask for $50,000 to make a prototype i might be more willing to chip in. But he clearly has money so he could finance that by himself.
It just all seems a bit odd and i have the feeling all he does is trying to see if there is even interest in a game like that and if lucky he can walk away an additional $2 million as bonus. [ interest free and non-refundable]
That didn't impress me any more than CSE pitch......
throwing some cinematic footage seems to draw people......my opinion it was just wasted time marketing
Pure speculation on your side, and not with Any good intentions it seems.
but you may be right. Nobody Cares about games any longer, it is all about money isnt it .
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
At this point, A prototype would tell us asmuch as a CGI trailer would.
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I see your point, and I do not hold your concerns against you - they are totally reasonable.
I think the primary reason CSE is launching this Kickstarter so early in development is because, unlike some totally unknown people/studios, Mark and Andrew have a proven track record of being able to make and deliver games. Even the most diehard critic of CSE should be able to admit that. Thus, their need to prove they can actually form a game is less than others.
Also, creating an MMORPG as a full studio that has to pay employees is riskier than doing something largely on the side as a single-player game. They probably do not wish to go ahead unless the public shows enough interest and support to bother.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Hopefully, CSE can show something more compelling to those who are unsure; I know a lot of people want to back it, but are a bit leery. Fair enough, MMORPGs are risky. I get the feeling a lot of good updates will be happening in the coming weeks, so you may get what you need then. I hope you do, because you sound like the sort of player I'd like to play with.
I think you make an excellent point regarding the risk and thinking about it, that is exactly what holds me back. I am taking a risk if i "invest" into his project. It would be nice if they took a little risk to encourage me to take that last step and open my wallet.
I bet a lot of people would be willing to pledge if they did that. I know many of my friends are on the edge with this one.
Anyways i am off for now, back tonight. Let's see what the next few days bring us.
Some of your concerns seem quite valid. However, I think it's silly to say the team hasn't risked anything yet. Those people are probably not working for free, and the Kickstarter sure isn't paying them. I'd think Mark is paying them pretty much out of pocket (save, whatever small income there is from March on Oz). And didn't Andrew leave his job with Skyrim to work on this project?
Also, there is a risk in building such an early prototype. Some people will see that prototype and think that's what the final product will look like, when in fact the final product is yet to be determined. And that "yet to be determined" seems to be a part of what's bothering you, but Mark has repeatedly stated that he wants input from the backers before a lot of things are decided. That's one of the selling points IMO. I like that he's not deciding a bunch of stuff and saying, "here's what the game will be." Instead he's allowing us to at least FEEL like we have some input into the game itself. And I don't have any reason to think he won't listen to input...he's already proven he is willing to listen and act. And having some input into the design process (with Mark guiding the ship so it doesn't sink) gives the backers a little "pride of ownership." THAT can go a long way toward ensuring long-term success.
Either way, you have your opinions and that's fine. I hope it funds, and I hope that when it gets released you try it and love it. If not...C'est la vie. (semi-pun....think I saw you're in France
).
I get what you are saying. But here is a different perspective...
I'm an art director and I can tell you any successful project begins with a good process. This means a significant portion of a project is spent researching, concepting and laying down core philosophies. Clients often don't understand the importance of this stage. They want to see something tangible and don't understand what is taking so long. But it is only from this foundation that something really genius comes out. A visual mock-up might look really nice to the client, we could blow them away, they might love it. It's pretty (we ar good at making things pretty) and it might appear to be just what they want. But it wouldn't be what they need, it would just be something pretty without substance. Because we hadn't done the substance part first. The most important thing is the concept is right, then when the client is sold on the concept you jump in and start making it real and pretty (that is the easy part). Why waste a ton of time and money on something if the client doesn't want it?
CSE has laid out their whole philosophy behind the game. I've read it all, I get it and I like what I see, they got the substance right. As the client in this situation I am saying yes this is good lets move forward. Now they want to get to the next part making it real. They are trying to do something new, and they want to do it right, they are only at the beginning of the process.
Because of my own personal perspective I see it in a different way. I understand peoples trepidation, I deal with a similar reluctance a lot. It might not be the exact same creative field but I can't help seeing it a similar. At my work I kind of explain this process to new clients a lot, it's just about educating them on the process, but once they know and the see the results, they keep coming back.
The opinion of the OP is completely valid, but his statement is completely wrong.
Why? Well CSE, and MJ in particular, have shown a lot of passion and vision. Before the kickstarter started MJ lurked on these forums all the time, and everyone that had a valid concern or question got hem answered by him personally. That, to me, shows PASSION!
If you take some time to read all the foundational principles, you will see that it breathes VISION.
What lacks is a working prototype, or tangible in-game footage, or a UI.
As for financial risks, MJ is already taking a risk. His entire team is busy with CU at this time, that all comes from his pocket. What do you think will happen to the general happiness and workethic of MJ, AM, and the rest of his team when CU gets shelved due to lack of funding? That is a major risk for a CEO. He's taking the risk, i applaud that.
The (valid) point remains that we should get a lot more tangible stuff over the next 2 weeks.
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daoc is the prototype, since people wouldn't invest so much money if he atleast didn't deliver something good in the past.
and saying that any half-decent guy on deviant art can do the concept art of CU just shows that you don't even remotely have any talent yourself, but love to bash others work.
How big a risk really is $25 to get a digital copy of the game, etc., etc.? Or even $5? If you don't want to invest even that much, don't try to pretend it's because it's a "risk". The people who are putting in $1,000, $5,000, $10,000... those are people taking a true risk. Not you. Or even me really with my $110 donation.
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Agree Med,
People playing the risk card just don't have any vision for this game.
MJ Stated there will be more demos and videos to come within the month of Kickstarter.
Anybody that is on the fence on whether to pledge to CU or not, should just wait and see what they release in the next 24 days and then make your decision.
I think they've done a good job with the updates so far, and they're only going to get better and hopefully more detailed the closer we get to the end of the month.
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