Nice demo video, I like the rotation popping (of course that would be fixed)
500 to 1000 models in a fight is realistic ? hmm.. from a technology to fluid game play stand point (what did you mean by fluid combat MJ in a previous video), sorry I'm calling BS on this one, would be nice to see how you are going to accomplish this monumental feat, and If you do it will make gaming history.
I think it is realistic if the networking can keep up. I am not concerned about the graphics keeping up very much at all. A Macbook Pro from 2011 will be nothing compared to an average gaming PC in 2015 - even a $500 PC in 2015 will be multiple times as powerful as that Macbook Pro from 2011. My gaming PC right now, also from 2011, annihilates that Macbook Pro, and the one I build for CU will annihilate the one I have now (hello Broadwell and the GeForce 800 series, or the AMD 9000 series). By keeping the models at a relatively low detail, combined with two years of progressive hardware improvements, it is very possible to have a fully rendered battle between 500 players not bog down on the client end.
Keep in mind that with LOD and even your own field of view, you will not need to render all 500 players at once, and not all at the same detail. Chances are you will only have a fraction of that in your field of view, and only a fraction of that right up in your face. So you may only need to render 200 at once, with only 50 of them being really close, and even that is on the high side, I think.
The networking end, though, may be the tricky part. Keeping latency low while tracking 500 players in a small area and updating all 500 players as to the actions of the other 499 may take some doing. If they pull this off well, that will be the more impressive part.
The first thing people do is make a zerg blob, that's how it works. I can tell you now without a shadow of a doubt, 500 to 1000 people will be trying to get on your screen (rendering performance is not the issue), and IMO sending that amount of update data in a short space of time is impossible. Would be cool to see some network topology or netcode math from Andrew on the subject, maybe they have an ace or some new tech thats never been seen before, but all i can vision is lag atm.
Nice demo video, I like the rotation popping (of course that would be fixed)
500 to 1000 models in a fight is realistic ? hmm.. from a technology to fluid game play stand point (what did you mean by fluid combat MJ in a previous video), sorry I'm calling BS on this one, would be nice to see how you are going to accomplish this monumental feat, and If you do it will make gaming history.
I think it is realistic if the networking can keep up. I am not concerned about the graphics keeping up very much at all. A Macbook Pro from 2011 will be nothing compared to an average gaming PC in 2015 - even a $500 PC in 2015 will be multiple times as powerful as that Macbook Pro from 2011. My gaming PC right now, also from 2011, annihilates that Macbook Pro, and the one I build for CU will annihilate the one I have now (hello Broadwell and the GeForce 800 series, or the AMD 9000 series). By keeping the models at a relatively low detail, combined with two years of progressive hardware improvements, it is very possible to have a fully rendered battle between 500 players not bog down on the client end.
Keep in mind that with LOD and even your own field of view, you will not need to render all 500 players at once, and not all at the same detail. Chances are you will only have a fraction of that in your field of view, and only a fraction of that right up in your face. So you may only need to render 200 at once, with only 50 of them being really close, and even that is on the high side, I think.
The networking end, though, may be the tricky part. Keeping latency low while tracking 500 players in a small area and updating all 500 players as to the actions of the other 499 may take some doing. If they pull this off well, that will be the more impressive part.
The first thing people do is make a zerg blob, that's how it works. I can tell you now without a shadow of a doubt, 500 to 1000 people will be trying to get on your screen (rendering performance is not the issue), and IMO sending that amount of update data in a short space of time is impossible. Would be cool to see some network topology or netcode math from Andrew on the subject, maybe they have an ace or some new tech thats never been seen before, but all i can vision is lag atm.
Well, if zerg blobs are an optimal way to play, then CSE will have failed with the combat system. A blob of players should be handily decimated by a few well-placed AoEs by your side's casters. I really do not think this will be the problem you believe it will be, to be honest. Coordinating 500 players into one compact ball would require a level of leadership, planning, and organization, coupled with everyone following along, the likes of which I have never seen.
Nice demo video, I like the rotation popping (of course that would be fixed)
500 to 1000 models in a fight is realistic ? hmm.. from a technology to fluid game play stand point (what did you mean by fluid combat MJ in a previous video), sorry I'm calling BS on this one, would be nice to see how you are going to accomplish this monumental feat, and If you do it will make gaming history.
I think it is realistic if the networking can keep up. I am not concerned about the graphics keeping up very much at all. A Macbook Pro from 2011 will be nothing compared to an average gaming PC in 2015 - even a $500 PC in 2015 will be multiple times as powerful as that Macbook Pro from 2011. My gaming PC right now, also from 2011, annihilates that Macbook Pro, and the one I build for CU will annihilate the one I have now (hello Broadwell and the GeForce 800 series, or the AMD 9000 series). By keeping the models at a relatively low detail, combined with two years of progressive hardware improvements, it is very possible to have a fully rendered battle between 500 players not bog down on the client end.
Keep in mind that with LOD and even your own field of view, you will not need to render all 500 players at once, and not all at the same detail. Chances are you will only have a fraction of that in your field of view, and only a fraction of that right up in your face. So you may only need to render 200 at once, with only 50 of them being really close, and even that is on the high side, I think.
The networking end, though, may be the tricky part. Keeping latency low while tracking 500 players in a small area and updating all 500 players as to the actions of the other 499 may take some doing. If they pull this off well, that will be the more impressive part.
The first thing people do is make a zerg blob, that's how it works. I can tell you now without a shadow of a doubt, 500 to 1000 people will be trying to get on your screen (rendering performance is not the issue), and IMO sending that amount of update data in a short space of time is impossible. Would be cool to see some network topology or netcode math from Andrew on the subject, maybe they have an ace or some new tech thats never been seen before, but all i can vision is lag atm.
Well, if zerg blobs are an optimal way to play, then CSE will have failed with the combat system. A blob of players should be handily decimated by a few well-placed AoEs by your side's casters. I really do not think this will be the problem you believe it will be, to be honest. Coordinating 500 players into one compact ball would require a level of leadership, planning, and organization, coupled with everyone following along, the likes of which I have never seen.
Yeah you could be right, depending on the combat system, which why I need MJ to release more detailed info on that. But one thing I can tell you is the blob doesn't need coordination at the level you think, all it needs is a location spammed in global chat, generally in most games the blob is started by a few people and as it progresses in its Amoebic nature, its natural course will engulf more and more players, I've seen this in games over the last 15 years, and it's a natural thing for players and humans, you feel safer in the blob.
Yeah you could be right, depending on the combat system, which why I need MJ to release more detailed info on that. But one thing I can tell you is the blob doesn't need coordination at the level you think, all it needs is a location spammed in global chat, generally in most games the blob is started by a few people and as it progresses in its Amoebic nature, its natural course will engulf more and more players, I've seen this in games over the last 15 years, and it's a natural thing for players and humans, you feel safer in the blob.
The counter to that is having properly designed AoE damage. Capping the targets AoE abilities can hit isn't the answer. This was illustrated in Warhammer and is being illustrated right now in GW2. Brightwizards and Sorcs had access to long range hard hitting abilities. They could do mass damage at a safe distance. Ranged AoE skills in GW 2 work about the same way. The answer Warhammer and GW 2 received were to cap the number of players hit by these abilities. This only forces people to stick together as the less AoE they have the more AoEers they need. It's counter productive.
When you look at Daoc's AoE system the hardest hitting AoE abilities were the most risky to use. Mainly PBAoE, highest devling spell in the game for the most part and all ranged AoE delved for less than single target spells making them useful if enough targets were present. No target hit caps were needed because to do the most amount of damage to tons of people you had to be within melee range. Yes you could get 4-5 casters together and ranged AoE nuke groups/zergs down but it wasn't near as good as bomb groups. In my opinion one thing Daoc got absolutely right was AoE damage skills. Any game since then which has had to cap the targets these skills hit counter productively forced zerging by making it more lucrative to gather more ranged AoEers to kill large groups.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Very exciting update. I am very happy to see that you aren't really targeting 10,000 player fights. I didn't think so, but your previous tech demo and other statements did give that impression. 500-1,000 players sounds fine. It likely won't even get that high normally except during epic raids. Now give us an Arthurian model, add that to the demo, and throw in a few spell effects.
BTW what happened to Bender after Mark recorded update 12? He was missing in Andrew's video as far as I could see.
Comments
The first thing people do is make a zerg blob, that's how it works. I can tell you now without a shadow of a doubt, 500 to 1000 people will be trying to get on your screen (rendering performance is not the issue), and IMO sending that amount of update data in a short space of time is impossible. Would be cool to see some network topology or netcode math from Andrew on the subject, maybe they have an ace or some new tech thats never been seen before, but all i can vision is lag atm.
Well, if zerg blobs are an optimal way to play, then CSE will have failed with the combat system. A blob of players should be handily decimated by a few well-placed AoEs by your side's casters. I really do not think this will be the problem you believe it will be, to be honest. Coordinating 500 players into one compact ball would require a level of leadership, planning, and organization, coupled with everyone following along, the likes of which I have never seen.
Yeah you could be right, depending on the combat system, which why I need MJ to release more detailed info on that. But one thing I can tell you is the blob doesn't need coordination at the level you think, all it needs is a location spammed in global chat, generally in most games the blob is started by a few people and as it progresses in its Amoebic nature, its natural course will engulf more and more players, I've seen this in games over the last 15 years, and it's a natural thing for players and humans, you feel safer in the blob.
If it gets funded, there's still a very long time until relese december 2015...
Even more when they delay it :P
The counter to that is having properly designed AoE damage. Capping the targets AoE abilities can hit isn't the answer. This was illustrated in Warhammer and is being illustrated right now in GW2. Brightwizards and Sorcs had access to long range hard hitting abilities. They could do mass damage at a safe distance. Ranged AoE skills in GW 2 work about the same way. The answer Warhammer and GW 2 received were to cap the number of players hit by these abilities. This only forces people to stick together as the less AoE they have the more AoEers they need. It's counter productive.
When you look at Daoc's AoE system the hardest hitting AoE abilities were the most risky to use. Mainly PBAoE, highest devling spell in the game for the most part and all ranged AoE delved for less than single target spells making them useful if enough targets were present. No target hit caps were needed because to do the most amount of damage to tons of people you had to be within melee range. Yes you could get 4-5 casters together and ranged AoE nuke groups/zergs down but it wasn't near as good as bomb groups. In my opinion one thing Daoc got absolutely right was AoE damage skills. Any game since then which has had to cap the targets these skills hit counter productively forced zerging by making it more lucrative to gather more ranged AoEers to kill large groups.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Very exciting update. I am very happy to see that you aren't really targeting 10,000 player fights. I didn't think so, but your previous tech demo and other statements did give that impression. 500-1,000 players sounds fine. It likely won't even get that high normally except during epic raids. Now give us an Arthurian model, add that to the demo, and throw in a few spell effects.
BTW what happened to Bender after Mark recorded update 12? He was missing in Andrew's video as far as I could see.
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