40 man raids. No thanks. Bosses? Damn right! 40 man raids? No way! Bring as many as you want, no restrictions. Does this trivialise content or does it make it more accessible? If you have a group of very powerfull friends then you can try to kill that dragon with just 10 of you. If you lack the experience and skill to do that, bring an army. This is one of my pet hates with current MMO's and something I think is taking the "Massive" out of the genre.
The rest of it looks fine.
I hear you on this, however, let me add something to consider.
'Bring whoever you want' boss fights or let's call them 'raid-scale challenges' have one primary problem when it comes to programming them, this being of course, scalability.
<snip>
I never mentioned scalability. In fact, I don't want scalability. I'm talking about the way bosses where in EQ. How many times did you see talk in chat about how <insert guild here> took down Naggy with only 16 players? Then 14, then 12. People would be saying "Holy shit! How did they manage that?".
I'm talking bragging rights for the elite few who can pull off amazing victories with a small group of players. That's only possible when there isn't scaling. It makes their achievement that much more impressive.
At the same time that content isn't denied to others who would be left out of your 40 man raids because "sorry bud but your gearscore is too low" or "but we have 2 warriors already and we need more DPS" or "I only have 2 places left and we need more healers". We've all experienced this in WoW and it blows goats.
If your guild can't take that boss with 40 people then take 60. Still having problems, ok then take 80. Take as many as you need to get the job done. Start shouting in local chat and get anyone available to help you out. You want community? There's an example of how it gets built.
"Oh but that's just a zerg" you may say. So what? It's not affecting you is it? All it's doing is allowing someone else, who has also bought the game, is paying the same monthly subscription but is in a smaller, less hardcore guild the same opportunity to play the same content. And why shouldn't they? They paid for it! I see no reason to exclude a paying customer from content for some bogus reason like the need for a certain level of gear to allow them to contribute enough dps/tanking/healing when the numbers are limited to 10/25/40 whatever.
Just let them play the content. Let them play the game, they paid for it. If they get their arses handed to them, they have two options. Get better gear, or take more people next time. I don't see the problem with that. The choice is their's. And that's the key here - Choice! Give the choices back to the players instead of holding their hands so much.
And something else I forgot before. Crafted gear need to be the best available. If you want loot off bosses then it should be in the form of materials for crafting uber gear. I don't want to see another tiered kit chase in a game, ever.
I would have criticized the grammar in this thread's title, but I thought better of it.
OT: I just think that the Elder Scrolls series and MMORPG's shouldn't have had a baby. Unless we are all just peons - farmers, traders, blacksmiths etc. and the heros are NPC's. That would be interesting.
I lol'd at the idea of millions of Dragonborn running around
Originally posted by Purutzil Then you would of realized how insanely difficult your work would be to be pulled off in an MMO setting and no where remotely near as easy and would of stopped production and worked on the TESO that exists today due to limitations of both the average consumer's computer and network limitations among other things.
Total 100% BS that will not fool anyone not willing to toss out every single MMO ever made outside of that steaming PoS that was DaoC.
There are MMOs that are completely open world.
There are MMOs that do not have closed off factions.
There are MMOs that have PvP out in the open and not instanced.
There are MMOs capable of having 100s of people in a small area.
Thus, it CAN be done and no, no, networks are not limited like that and if you believe that, then you are used to playing piss poor MMOs made by really bad programmers.
Easy...ooh it would be too hard to make so lets just create another stagnant MMO with vastly limited game design...yeah, lets make another SWTOR type game because it would be hard to do it better.
And people wonder why the genre is becoming stagnant?
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics. Reply Add Multi-Quote
Originally posted by ShakyMo Jcm: Hmmm tiny hamlet becomes a 5000 house mini city. EVERYONE can become a jarl, that's a shitload of new provinces in skyrim
I think the political system the OP was talking about isn't one where everyone can become a jarl, but anyone can try to become The Jarl. A bit like Highlander, there can be only one. TERA has this sort of thing where a guild leader can run for office to control a province and players vote for them.
As for the 5000 house mini city, well SWG had player housing you could place anywhere and it just doesn't happen that way. People tend to spread out. Guilds will make their own towns which may become cities. What's wrong with that? I still don't see the problem. The guild I was in when I played SWG had a huge town, maybe 200 buildings, a town hall, a central square with a fountain, we even had our own shuttle port. Tehcnically, it's absolutely achievable. This stuff was in MMO's 15 years ago. It's the modern ones that leave housing out.
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk Originally posted by Caliburn101Originally posted by jmcdermottuk40 man raids. No thanks. Bosses? Damn right! 40 man raids? No way! Bring as many as you want, no restrictions. Does this trivialise content or does it make it more accessible? If you have a group of very powerfull friends then you can try to kill that dragon with just 10 of you. If you lack the experience and skill to do that, bring an army. This is one of my pet hates with current MMO's and something I think is taking the "Massive" out of the genre.The rest of it looks fine.
I hear you on this, however, let me add something to consider.'Bring whoever you want' boss fights or let's call them 'raid-scale challenges' have one primary problem when it comes to programming them, this being of course, scalability.<snip>
I never mentioned scalability. In fact, I don't want scalability. I'm talking about the way bosses where in EQ. How many times did you see talk in chat about how <insert guild here> took down Naggy with only 16 players? Then 14, then 12. People would be saying "Holy shit! How did they manage that?".
I'm talking bragging rights for the elite few who can pull off amazing victories with a small group of players. That's only possible when there isn't scaling. It makes their achievement that much more impressive.
At the same time that content isn't denied to others who would be left out of your 40 man raids because "sorry bud but your gearscore is too low" or "but we have 2 warriors already and we need more DPS" or "I only have 2 places left and we need more healers". We've all experienced this in WoW and it blows goats.
If your guild can't take that boss with 40 people then take 60. Still having problems, ok then take 80. Take as many as you need to get the job done. Start shouting in local chat and get anyone available to help you out. You want community? There's an example of how it gets built.
"Oh but that's just a zerg" you may say. So what? It's not affecting you is it? All it's doing is allowing someone else, who has also bought the game, is paying the same monthly subscription but is in a smaller, less hardcore guild the same opportunity to play the same content. And why shouldn't they? They paid for it! I see no reason to exclude a paying customer from content for some bogus reason like the need for a certain level of gear to allow them to contribute enough dps/tanking/healing when the numbers are limited to 10/25/40 whatever.
Just let them play the content. Let them play the game, they paid for it. If they get their arses handed to them, they have two options. Get better gear, or take more people next time. I don't see the problem with that. The choice is their's. And that's the key here - Choice! Give the choices back to the players instead of holding their hands so much.
And something else I forgot before. Crafted gear need to be the best available. If you want loot off bosses then it should be in the form of materials for crafting uber gear. I don't want to see another tiered kit chase in a game, ever.
i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.
you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?
what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.
i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.
ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.
its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.
but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.
i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.
you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?
what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.
i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.
ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.
its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.
but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.
I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.
Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us.
I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be <this> level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun?
And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).
This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.
The thing with swg it had huge empty areas to build houses.
The trouble with tamriel, we already know how 4 of the provinces look. It would kinda ruin the world if say half the people on the server decided to build their houses in whiterun.
So how do you do housing, well I wouldn't want instanced housing like eq2 as well its just pointless.
You could use a Ao style apartment block thing but that wouldn't fit the setting.
What I think they will do if they ever do housing is probably daoc style with a separate non instanced zone for housing, where you can build your villages next to your guild mates, have stores etc.. but that still has the problem of where would you put it as the world of tamriel is already mapped.
Jmc I think they should add vanilla EQ / daoc style raiding too. Wouldn't like later day EQ / wow style raiding though, takes too many players out of the world and attracts / encourages elitist jerks.
I also disagree that instanced raiding is more challenging. Some of the raids in daoc have only been done a handful of times in the world ever. I once did one that took 6+ hours to complete. Open world raids don't have to be gw2 easy mode. I imagine EQ early raids were somewhat simmilar.
If you can fork out 175 million dollars and unlimited time they would be happy to do it for you. They cost about 60-100+ million dollars to make and the MMO you are proposing would be a phenominal feat technically and financially.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
40 man raid lol no thx thats one things that absolutely don't belong in TES games.
Game will be totally ruined if instance grinding get hold of such game.
TES games should always be open free roaming worlds and open dungeons.
Game should be about exploring and discover monsters that need more players but not in instance also don't belong in TES games sandbox open world with total freedom.
But not gonne happen they made a themepark for causals with ezmode.
TESO is not a real TES game just a money grab thats all.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Originally posted by ShakyMo The thing with swg it had huge empty areas to build houses.
The trouble with tamriel, we already know how 4 of the provinces look. It would kinda ruin the world if say half the people on the server decided to build their houses in whiterun.
So how do you do housing, well I wouldn't want instanced housing like eq2 as well its just pointless.
You could use a Ao style apartment block thing but that wouldn't fit the setting.
What I think they will do if they ever do housing is probably daoc style with a separate non instanced zone for housing, where you can build your villages next to your guild mates, have stores etc.. but that still has the problem of where would you put it as the world of tamriel is already mapped.
We're talking about how we would make the game, not how it is being given to us by Zenimax. Tamriel is huge, easily big enough if the game had been designed properly. Forget Skyrim, look at TES II Daggerfall. That was a huge game world which would easily suppport player housing.
This is how I would do a TES MMO, we're not talking about the game that's in production. If you look at the thread title, this is all hypothetical. We're not restricted to using the world Zenimax is offering us. This is basically all just bullshit about how we would have made the game if it were up to us.
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk Originally posted by baphametSnip
i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.
Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us.
I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be <this> level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun?
And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).
This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.
no, i think i touched on what you were saying exactly. you are saying that if you cant beat a boss with 40 people, bring more to make it more trivial.
like i said, i totally understand where you are coming from by allowing everyone in the guild to attend the raid without limitations or needing certain classes to fill a specific role.
but if you don't balance the content for that, it becomes trivial for the larger zergs or its ballanced only for large zergs.
that is why in games like EQ, only the best guilds could raid certain content.
do you not see the logic in terms of balancing the content for more people to enjoy while still making it challenging for everyone?
it definitely has its pros and cons but i see why they do it for sure.
If you can fork out 175 million dollars and unlimited time they would be happy to do it for you. They cost about 60-100+ million dollars to make and the MMO you are proposing would be a phenominal feat technically and financially.
We're talking about a hypothetical version of TES:O and mine would have elements we've seen in EQ, SWG, UO and a few other MMO's. All of the things I've talked about have been seen in some form or other in games that are 10 or 15 years old. Thechnically, nothing would be difficult at all to implement, therefore I don't see why it would be as expensive as you seem to think it would.
Why would it be such a phenominal feat, given that we've seen all this stuff before? The fact is that todays MMO player has been fed on such a cut down, bullshit versions of MMO's they can't envision something better. And those that can think it would cost a billion dollars to produce.
The sad fact is all the developers are just too shit scared to try anything out of the safe "WoW Box" and continue to churn out the same MMO with a new paint job. Sometimes they include something novel from a classic. Oh! Like 3 faction RvR.
Originally posted by ShakyMo The thing with swg it had huge empty areas to build houses.
The trouble with tamriel, we already know how 4 of the provinces look. It would kinda ruin the world if say half the people on the server decided to build their houses in whiterun.
MMO worlds are supposed to be LARGER than SPRPG worlds...
So you take any of the TES games and you are increasing those lands by 10 fold.
Originally posted by redcapp Gotta say, 'would of' is a pretty annoying pet peeve of mine. It is would have.
Yes, mine too. Too many people think the contracted "would've" is "would of". This will assuredly be the downfall of the western civilization.
For you grammatically superior people I fixed the "would of's"
I would never use the term Nazi to describe anything but elements of the German Workers Party that systematically tried to eliminate the existance of any person not of Aryan descent. Thats a personal pet peeve of mine!
Grammer means nothing but historical fact means everything and tieing someones misuse of the english language to the murder of over 6 million people is about as idiotic as one can be. Just some perspective for you "perfectionists" to ponder on!
For starters, it's grammar. Secondly, we're not the ones who sling the word nazi around. You missed a 'would of' in your title and at the start of your post.
i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.
I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.
Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us.
I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun?
And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).
This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.
no, i think i touched on what you were saying exactly. you are saying that if you cant beat a boss with 40 people, bring more to make it more trivial.
like i said, i totally understand where you are coming from by allowing everyone in the guild to attend the raid without limitations or needing certain classes to fill a specific role.
but if you don't balance the content for that, it becomes trivial for the larger zergs or its ballanced only for large zergs.
that is why in games like EQ, only the best guilds could raid certain content.
do you not see the logic in terms of balancing the content for more people to enjoy while still making it challenging for everyone?
it definitely has its pros and cons but i see why they do it for sure.
I see what you're saying and I understand you viewpoint. I just don't agree with it.
You see it as making content trivial because it can be zerged. I see it as making the content available to people who may not otherwsie get a chance to try that content, due to level, gear, numbers, or even skill, whatever.
I see nothing wrong at all with a 40 man boss being beaten by 45 people if that's what it takes. I see nothing wrong with a guild taking 60 to beat him if they have to. Yeah it's a zerg. But seriously, why should you care? If your guild can do it with 40, well then,, well done you. If you can do it with 30, again, well done, I'm impressed.
But if you're in a guild that keeps wiping when you take 40 people along, fuck it, get another group in to help. What is the problem with that? Why should you care if another guild takes 100 people to a boss fight? It makes no difference at all to what you do in the game. Except maybe prove you're a better player in a better guild because you did it with 30.
My way just makes more sense to me. It worked for the Russians at Stalingard. It worked for Xerxes at Thermopylae, eventually.
Different strokes I guess. I do respect your opinion and I understand what you're saying but I just can't agree with it.
Non instanced Raiding was an inclusive everyone on the server pile on activity that built community in games like daoc & vanilla EQ.
Instanced raiding wow style is an elitist activity that takes people out of the world, keeps them in guild only cliques and needs a never ending hamster wheel / gear carrot to encourage people to take part.
First I would of borrowed Skyrim's engine "Creation Engine" and continued to utilyze the Havok's Behavior Toolset for Character Animation But I would of worked it more to give a bit better animations while in 3rd Person view.
Next I would have placed the setting in the future after the events of Skyrim, that way Dragons could be in the game and players could go on select missions to become Dragonborn.
Next I would remove any type of Forced PvP from the game and instead relied on the deep lore of the myriad NPC factions and Guilds to give rise to player PvP. Guilds/Factions/Orders such as Companions, Imperial Legion, Stormcloaks, Fighters, Mages, Thieves, Blades, Mythic Dawn, Dark Brotherhood, Bards and maybe some of the lesser known factions. List here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Factions
Then I would have implemented an enmity system whereas certain factions were hostile to others. This would allow world PvP to thrive but those who wished not to partake could of stayed clear of certain houses and factions.
Next I would have opened up the entire area of Tamriel and allowed the building of houses in and around the villages and cities that already exist. ALl housing would of been in the open world. I would of then designed the game to be completely seemless except for the various dungeons and other points of interest that you can wander into.
I would then turn my attention to the class system, I would have kept the class names listed here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Classes I would also allowed the use of creating a custom class by picking and choosing the various skill lines but kept the perk system that was in Skyrim.
I would not implement an Auction House but would implement a mailing system. Any trades would be done through face to face contact and the setting up of bazaars in the various cities.
I would not have a global chat system, instead the chat system would only cross player guilds, NPC guilds, and shout/say distance.
Speaking of crafting, that would be handled by the class system, whereby you could actually create a crafting class which did nothing but craft all day and not have to kill a thing. You would have to rely on adventurers to gather though, or you could sacrifice specialization points to pick up combat skills to gather them yourself. I would also add in a Carpentry Skill which would be the only way to build houses, or you could buy already placed housing plots in the game world. The gathering skills would be universal, anyone could gather anything if they ran across it.
Next I would allow the formation of 40 man raids and give Raiders the opportunity to tackle various Bosses that were placed in the world or in non-instanced dungeons.
I would also implement some sort of political system that allowed players to become Jarls or other heads of houses through various means.
Now onto Combat, I would allow the use of 1st and 3rd person combat and kept the reticule based combat system but I would not allow the use of a soft locking system that the current TESO game utilyzes.
As for questing, I would keep the TES style of quests. Complete with a working HUD or Compass like the single player games. Quest givers would be like any normal NPC, meaning you would have to talk to NPC's to find out if they had a quest to give you. None of this hand holding Yellow outline stuff TESO is going to use. My TESO would continue with the tradition of all TES games to allow the player to wander off the path and discover their own way and both questing and exploration would be just as optimal.
Finally I would make it so certain NPC's sold items, some of them being magic most not but each NPC had their own inventory like the TES games. I would also allow the killing, Stealing and placing baskets over NPC's head but doing so would make the player a PK (PvP enabled). SO if I saw you stealing from an NPC I could kill you without penalty and even be rewarded for killing the "Sneak Thief". This would allow the Players to police the world and to limit the potential for wholescale slaughter. For those NPC's that were murdered they could be resurrected by other players or often times some other NPC would take over their shop or offer that NPC's quest. Something like the local chieftain or jarl could assign someone to take over their shop after a certain period of inactivity.
Thats about all I can think of for now.
You kniw, it's called Darkfall what you want to play. Seriously some ideas are good and exist in Darkfall although some are just detached from reality (see your idea about player to player trading).
Only thing OP needs to do now is to start begging campaign on certain website focused on beggars. The chance to pull the game off will be very slim but there is a solid chance he will get some nice money along.
A key element of game design is WRITING. If you are not skilled at it, you will never be a game designer.
The first resume you turn in with a work example consisting of;
i wuz makin teh gamez when i was twelf. I would of starting early but muh daddy wouln;t buy teh notezbook.
Will get you dumped before anyone ever even considers your game concepts.
GrammAr nazi? No, just the correct way of doing it.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Comments
I never mentioned scalability. In fact, I don't want scalability. I'm talking about the way bosses where in EQ. How many times did you see talk in chat about how <insert guild here> took down Naggy with only 16 players? Then 14, then 12. People would be saying "Holy shit! How did they manage that?".
I'm talking bragging rights for the elite few who can pull off amazing victories with a small group of players. That's only possible when there isn't scaling. It makes their achievement that much more impressive.
At the same time that content isn't denied to others who would be left out of your 40 man raids because "sorry bud but your gearscore is too low" or "but we have 2 warriors already and we need more DPS" or "I only have 2 places left and we need more healers". We've all experienced this in WoW and it blows goats.
If your guild can't take that boss with 40 people then take 60. Still having problems, ok then take 80. Take as many as you need to get the job done. Start shouting in local chat and get anyone available to help you out. You want community? There's an example of how it gets built.
"Oh but that's just a zerg" you may say. So what? It's not affecting you is it? All it's doing is allowing someone else, who has also bought the game, is paying the same monthly subscription but is in a smaller, less hardcore guild the same opportunity to play the same content. And why shouldn't they? They paid for it! I see no reason to exclude a paying customer from content for some bogus reason like the need for a certain level of gear to allow them to contribute enough dps/tanking/healing when the numbers are limited to 10/25/40 whatever.
Just let them play the content. Let them play the game, they paid for it. If they get their arses handed to them, they have two options. Get better gear, or take more people next time. I don't see the problem with that. The choice is their's. And that's the key here - Choice! Give the choices back to the players instead of holding their hands so much.
And something else I forgot before. Crafted gear need to be the best available. If you want loot off bosses then it should be in the form of materials for crafting uber gear. I don't want to see another tiered kit chase in a game, ever.
Hmmm tiny hamlet becomes a 5000 house mini city.
EVERYONE can become a jarl, that's a shitload of new provinces in skyrim
BTW, if this game was truly a daoc clone, that's how raids would work anyway.
I would have criticized the grammar in this thread's title, but I thought better of it.
OT: I just think that the Elder Scrolls series and MMORPG's shouldn't have had a baby. Unless we are all just peons - farmers, traders, blacksmiths etc. and the heros are NPC's. That would be interesting.
I lol'd at the idea of millions of Dragonborn running around
Total 100% BS that will not fool anyone not willing to toss out every single MMO ever made outside of that steaming PoS that was DaoC.
There are MMOs that are completely open world.
There are MMOs that do not have closed off factions.
There are MMOs that have PvP out in the open and not instanced.
There are MMOs capable of having 100s of people in a small area.
Thus, it CAN be done and no, no, networks are not limited like that and if you believe that, then you are used to playing piss poor MMOs made by really bad programmers.
Easy...ooh it would be too hard to make so lets just create another stagnant MMO with vastly limited game design...yeah, lets make another SWTOR type game because it would be hard to do it better.
And people wonder why the genre is becoming stagnant?
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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I think the political system the OP was talking about isn't one where everyone can become a jarl, but anyone can try to become The Jarl. A bit like Highlander, there can be only one. TERA has this sort of thing where a guild leader can run for office to control a province and players vote for them.
As for the 5000 house mini city, well SWG had player housing you could place anywhere and it just doesn't happen that way. People tend to spread out. Guilds will make their own towns which may become cities. What's wrong with that? I still don't see the problem. The guild I was in when I played SWG had a huge town, maybe 200 buildings, a town hall, a central square with a fountain, we even had our own shuttle port. Tehcnically, it's absolutely achievable. This stuff was in MMO's 15 years ago. It's the modern ones that leave housing out.
I never mentioned scalability. In fact, I don't want scalability. I'm talking about the way bosses where in EQ. How many times did you see talk in chat about how <insert guild here> took down Naggy with only 16 players? Then 14, then 12. People would be saying "Holy shit! How did they manage that?".
I'm talking bragging rights for the elite few who can pull off amazing victories with a small group of players. That's only possible when there isn't scaling. It makes their achievement that much more impressive.
At the same time that content isn't denied to others who would be left out of your 40 man raids because "sorry bud but your gearscore is too low" or "but we have 2 warriors already and we need more DPS" or "I only have 2 places left and we need more healers". We've all experienced this in WoW and it blows goats.
If your guild can't take that boss with 40 people then take 60. Still having problems, ok then take 80. Take as many as you need to get the job done. Start shouting in local chat and get anyone available to help you out. You want community? There's an example of how it gets built.
"Oh but that's just a zerg" you may say. So what? It's not affecting you is it? All it's doing is allowing someone else, who has also bought the game, is paying the same monthly subscription but is in a smaller, less hardcore guild the same opportunity to play the same content. And why shouldn't they? They paid for it! I see no reason to exclude a paying customer from content for some bogus reason like the need for a certain level of gear to allow them to contribute enough dps/tanking/healing when the numbers are limited to 10/25/40 whatever.
Just let them play the content. Let them play the game, they paid for it. If they get their arses handed to them, they have two options. Get better gear, or take more people next time. I don't see the problem with that. The choice is their's. And that's the key here - Choice! Give the choices back to the players instead of holding their hands so much.
And something else I forgot before. Crafted gear need to be the best available. If you want loot off bosses then it should be in the form of materials for crafting uber gear. I don't want to see another tiered kit chase in a game, ever.
i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.
you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?
what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.
i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.
ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.
its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.
but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.
I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.
Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us.
I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be <this> level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun?
And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).
This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.
The trouble with tamriel, we already know how 4 of the provinces look. It would kinda ruin the world if say half the people on the server decided to build their houses in whiterun.
So how do you do housing, well I wouldn't want instanced housing like eq2 as well its just pointless.
You could use a Ao style apartment block thing but that wouldn't fit the setting.
What I think they will do if they ever do housing is probably daoc style with a separate non instanced zone for housing, where you can build your villages next to your guild mates, have stores etc.. but that still has the problem of where would you put it as the world of tamriel is already mapped.
I think they should add vanilla EQ / daoc style raiding too. Wouldn't like later day EQ / wow style raiding though, takes too many players out of the world and attracts / encourages elitist jerks.
If you can fork out 175 million dollars and unlimited time they would be happy to do it for you. They cost about 60-100+ million dollars to make and the MMO you are proposing would be a phenominal feat technically and financially.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
40 man raid lol no thx thats one things that absolutely don't belong in TES games.
Game will be totally ruined if instance grinding get hold of such game.
TES games should always be open free roaming worlds and open dungeons.
Game should be about exploring and discover monsters that need more players but not in instance also don't belong in TES games sandbox open world with total freedom.
But not gonne happen they made a themepark for causals with ezmode.
TESO is not a real TES game just a money grab thats all.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
We're talking about how we would make the game, not how it is being given to us by Zenimax. Tamriel is huge, easily big enough if the game had been designed properly. Forget Skyrim, look at TES II Daggerfall. That was a huge game world which would easily suppport player housing.
This is how I would do a TES MMO, we're not talking about the game that's in production. If you look at the thread title, this is all hypothetical. We're not restricted to using the world Zenimax is offering us. This is basically all just bullshit about how we would have made the game if it were up to us.
I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.
Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us.
I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be <this> level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun?
And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).
This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.
no, i think i touched on what you were saying exactly. you are saying that if you cant beat a boss with 40 people, bring more to make it more trivial.
like i said, i totally understand where you are coming from by allowing everyone in the guild to attend the raid without limitations or needing certain classes to fill a specific role.
but if you don't balance the content for that, it becomes trivial for the larger zergs or its ballanced only for large zergs.
that is why in games like EQ, only the best guilds could raid certain content.
do you not see the logic in terms of balancing the content for more people to enjoy while still making it challenging for everyone?
it definitely has its pros and cons but i see why they do it for sure.
We're talking about a hypothetical version of TES:O and mine would have elements we've seen in EQ, SWG, UO and a few other MMO's. All of the things I've talked about have been seen in some form or other in games that are 10 or 15 years old. Thechnically, nothing would be difficult at all to implement, therefore I don't see why it would be as expensive as you seem to think it would.
Why would it be such a phenominal feat, given that we've seen all this stuff before? The fact is that todays MMO player has been fed on such a cut down, bullshit versions of MMO's they can't envision something better. And those that can think it would cost a billion dollars to produce.
The sad fact is all the developers are just too shit scared to try anything out of the safe "WoW Box" and continue to churn out the same MMO with a new paint job. Sometimes they include something novel from a classic. Oh! Like 3 faction RvR.
Ah, whatever. I'm bored of this thread now.
MMO worlds are supposed to be LARGER than SPRPG worlds...
So you take any of the TES games and you are increasing those lands by 10 fold.
For starters, it's grammar. Secondly, we're not the ones who sling the word nazi around. You missed a 'would of' in your title and at the start of your post.
I see what you're saying and I understand you viewpoint. I just don't agree with it.
You see it as making content trivial because it can be zerged. I see it as making the content available to people who may not otherwsie get a chance to try that content, due to level, gear, numbers, or even skill, whatever.
I see nothing wrong at all with a 40 man boss being beaten by 45 people if that's what it takes. I see nothing wrong with a guild taking 60 to beat him if they have to. Yeah it's a zerg. But seriously, why should you care? If your guild can do it with 40, well then,, well done you. If you can do it with 30, again, well done, I'm impressed.
But if you're in a guild that keeps wiping when you take 40 people along, fuck it, get another group in to help. What is the problem with that? Why should you care if another guild takes 100 people to a boss fight? It makes no difference at all to what you do in the game. Except maybe prove you're a better player in a better guild because you did it with 30.
My way just makes more sense to me. It worked for the Russians at Stalingard. It worked for Xerxes at Thermopylae, eventually.
Different strokes I guess. I do respect your opinion and I understand what you're saying but I just can't agree with it.
Instanced raiding wow style is an elitist activity that takes people out of the world, keeps them in guild only cliques and needs a never ending hamster wheel / gear carrot to encourage people to take part.
You kniw, it's called Darkfall what you want to play. Seriously some ideas are good and exist in Darkfall although some are just detached from reality (see your idea about player to player trading).
Only thing OP needs to do now is to start begging campaign on certain website focused on beggars. The chance to pull the game off will be very slim but there is a solid chance he will get some nice money along.
A key element of game design is WRITING. If you are not skilled at it, you will never be a game designer.
The first resume you turn in with a work example consisting of;
i wuz makin teh gamez when i was twelf. I would of starting early but muh daddy wouln;t buy teh notezbook.
Will get you dumped before anyone ever even considers your game concepts.
GrammAr nazi? No, just the correct way of doing it.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
"This is how I would of..."
and stopped.