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so there is a lifetime sub option - but what if it goes F2P ???

2

Comments

  • ZinzanZinzan Member UncommonPosts: 1,351
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic Member Posts: 222
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by meddyck
    You're paying for the game to be made. The lifetime sub is a reward. If the payment model changes later on, the game still got made. I'm sure Mark would give lifetime subbers and also backers who got the monthly discounts bonus points for the cash shop like other games do if that ever happened. But he seems intensely opposed to the F2P model and cash shops, so it doesn't seem like something that would happen quickly after release. More than likely you'll make back what you paid for the lifetime sub in money saved on monthly subs before then.

    It's a possibility though that if the game bombs and they refuse to go F2P the only other real choice might be to shut it down altogether.

    I understand why MJ and some players want a subs fee and are anti F2P, but it does offer an option if the game struggles to regenerate it.

    DAoC never dropped its subs fee and has never recovered, games like LotRO went F2P and its worked for them. DAoC is propped up by EA, I not sure the CU team will be able to survive if the subs drop below the red line.

    Its this attitude that might wind up coming back to bite them in the backside though.

    They already said they would shut down instead of going FTP, and that they would release the code so players can run their own servers.

     

    There is no point regenerating the game with the FTP casual crowd, one of the aspect that we hope will make it good is the reputation thing. If the game is full of players that comes and stays only 1 month before leaving, you don't know anyone, and nobody can know you if you do something great, so the game is right away less attracting to us.

    I have not seen that before, where did MJ say they would release the code if the game shuts down? Link would be nice :)

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/455338

    KS update #18, it's the 7th point

  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    You have to keep in mind though that "shutting down" for this game means free servers. So really it would amount to one of the bigger fansites renting a server and we keep on playing the game, for nothing more than a couple of donations each month likely.

  • ZinzanZinzan Member UncommonPosts: 1,351
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    You have to keep in mind though that "shutting down" for this game means free servers. So really it would amount to one of the bigger fansites renting a server and we keep on playing the game, for nothing more than a couple of donations each month likely.

    Your still missing part of the point though, if someone has paid for a lifetime sub and the game which could continue as a F2P as many others of mmos with lifetime subs have finds they simply choose to take his/her money and shut it all down instead.

    I wonder if some sort of money back guarantee is warranted? Otherwise what's to stop them shutting down the servers after a few months and moving on to the next project with a fat wallet?

    Cynical and unlikely admittedly, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • ZinzanZinzan Member UncommonPosts: 1,351
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by meddyck
    You're paying for the game to be made. The lifetime sub is a reward. If the payment model changes later on, the game still got made. I'm sure Mark would give lifetime subbers and also backers who got the monthly discounts bonus points for the cash shop like other games do if that ever happened. But he seems intensely opposed to the F2P model and cash shops, so it doesn't seem like something that would happen quickly after release. More than likely you'll make back what you paid for the lifetime sub in money saved on monthly subs before then.

    It's a possibility though that if the game bombs and they refuse to go F2P the only other real choice might be to shut it down altogether.

    I understand why MJ and some players want a subs fee and are anti F2P, but it does offer an option if the game struggles to regenerate it.

    DAoC never dropped its subs fee and has never recovered, games like LotRO went F2P and its worked for them. DAoC is propped up by EA, I not sure the CU team will be able to survive if the subs drop below the red line.

    Its this attitude that might wind up coming back to bite them in the backside though.

    They already said they would shut down instead of going FTP, and that they would release the code so players can run their own servers.

     

    There is no point regenerating the game with the FTP casual crowd, one of the aspect that we hope will make it good is the reputation thing. If the game is full of players that comes and stays only 1 month before leaving, you don't know anyone, and nobody can know you if you do something great, so the game is right away less attracting to us.

    I have not seen that before, where did MJ say they would release the code if the game shuts down? Link would be nice :)

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/455338

    KS update #18, it's the 7th point

    Thank you :)

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • ScottgunScottgun Member UncommonPosts: 528
    Just for the record, while many sub games went F2P, is there an example of a game where the dev made a definitive statement that it wouldn't ever go F2P but did?
  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Member Posts: 405
    OP: You've already created one thread about F2P that's been locked.. was it really necessary to create a second?

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    You have to keep in mind though that "shutting down" for this game means free servers. So really it would amount to one of the bigger fansites renting a server and we keep on playing the game, for nothing more than a couple of donations each month likely.

    Your still missing part of the point though, if someone has paid for a lifetime sub and the game which could continue as a F2P as many others of mmos with lifetime subs have finds they simply choose to take his/her money and shut it all down instead.

    I wonder if some sort of money back guarantee is warranted? Otherwise what's to stop them shutting down the servers after a few months and moving on to the next project with a fat wallet?

    Cynical and unlikely admittedly, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

    Wait what? I just told that this probably going to be the only commercial MMO which you actually will be able to play for your lifetime due to its servers binaries and code getting released on closure, yet you think it going F2P would be better? F2P just means getting locked out later, this means .... Lifetime access.

    I rather have this deal than yet another money grabbing F2P conversion.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    You have to keep in mind though that "shutting down" for this game means free servers. So really it would amount to one of the bigger fansites renting a server and we keep on playing the game, for nothing more than a couple of donations each month likely.

    Your still missing part of the point though, if someone has paid for a lifetime sub and the game which could continue as a F2P as many others of mmos with lifetime subs have finds they simply choose to take his/her money and shut it all down instead.

    I wonder if some sort of money back guarantee is warranted? Otherwise what's to stop them shutting down the servers after a few months and moving on to the next project with a fat wallet?

    Cynical and unlikely admittedly, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

     

    But yeah, I don't think there are any grounds to be able to get your money back. I still think he makes a valid point. Saying that he will shut the game down before he takes the game to F2P could be potentially extremely disappointing to those that are actually enjoying the game at the time. Especially if taking the game to F2P could save the game and be profitable.

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Member Posts: 405

    Originally posted by colddog04

    [mod edit]

    But yeah, I don't think there are any grounds to be able to get your money back. I still think he makes a valid point. Saying that he will shut the game down before he takes the game to F2P could be potentially extremely disappointing to those that are actually enjoying the game at the time. Especially if taking the game to F2P could save the game and be profitable.

    Originally posted by Vinterkrig

    This game will absolutely go free to play.

     

    There are a lot of heart strings being pulled from old school gamers here, and they will all most likely be dissapoiinted with what gets released.

    I'd pass on the life time unless you don't care about the extra money.

    @colddog04:  Mark has already said if the game gets funded and eventually closes, he will release the source code to allow private communities to host the game without the need of City State Entertainment.  That's the warranty.

    @Vinterkrig:  No, it won't go F2P.  Pulling at heart strings? Maybe, but it won't go F2P.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    You have to keep in mind though that "shutting down" for this game means free servers. So really it would amount to one of the bigger fansites renting a server and we keep on playing the game, for nothing more than a couple of donations each month likely.

    Your still missing part of the point though, if someone has paid for a lifetime sub and the game which could continue as a F2P as many others of mmos with lifetime subs have finds they simply choose to take his/her money and shut it all down instead.

    I wonder if some sort of money back guarantee is warranted? Otherwise what's to stop them shutting down the servers after a few months and moving on to the next project with a fat wallet?

    Cynical and unlikely admittedly, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

    i truly want to flame you so hard but im tired of over sensitive mods banning me for using one little insult around here.

     

    i dont even follow your thought process about how you would be eligible for a money back warranty just because the game shut down and you bought a lifetime sub. the lifetime subscription is not your lifetime, its the GAMES lifetime. even a toddler would be able to understand that.

     

    if you got into an accident and your heart stopped and you literally died but was resuscitated, would you then buy a new lifetime sub? no, you wouldn't. yet you want to cry money back if the game goes under.

    [mod edit]

     

    But yeah, I don't think there are any grounds to be able to get your money back. I still think he makes a valid point. Saying that he will shut the game down before he takes the game to F2P could be potentially extremely disappointing to those that are actually enjoying the game at the time. Especially if taking the game to F2P could save the game and be profitable.

    The point is he's told people he'll shut it down before going F2P. If people are still prepared to invest knowing that the game might shut down if it doesn't make enough money to sustain itself, well they can hardly complain if that's what happens. It's not like the haven't been warned.

    Bear in mind he also said he'd make the code available so people could run their own servers and you now have a situation where, even though the game would have officially shut down, anyone that wants to can continue to play it.

    [mod edit]

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Fun fact, no game MJ ever was involved in ever went F2P afaik.

    I don't think its fair to hold bad experiences with other devs/publishers against him, as far as i know the man is good on his word. Besides no sane man would want to go through the internet shitstorm of "you lied, you said xy" on something as big as this. I mean honestly, just shutting the thing down would be less of a hassle imho.

    This is the point of the thread though, it seems like they would shut the game down rather than consider F2P options if the as of yet unfounded claims here would have us believe, so what would that mean for "lifetime" subscribers, apart from the obvious :)

    You have to keep in mind though that "shutting down" for this game means free servers. So really it would amount to one of the bigger fansites renting a server and we keep on playing the game, for nothing more than a couple of donations each month likely.

    Your still missing part of the point though, if someone has paid for a lifetime sub and the game which could continue as a F2P as many others of mmos with lifetime subs have finds they simply choose to take his/her money and shut it all down instead.

    I wonder if some sort of money back guarantee is warranted? Otherwise what's to stop them shutting down the servers after a few months and moving on to the next project with a fat wallet?

    Cynical and unlikely admittedly, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

     

    But yeah, I don't think there are any grounds to be able to get your money back. I still think he makes a valid point. Saying that he will shut the game down before he takes the game to F2P could be potentially extremely disappointing to those that are actually enjoying the game at the time. Especially if taking the game to F2P could save the game and be profitable.

    [mod edit]

    If you bought a lifetime sub and he didn't say upfront that he would close the game before going f2p(and giving extra goodies/benefits to life time subbers if it were to have gone f2p) and the game did close relatively quickly cause it couldn't keep up while being a sub game, THEN i will get behind your anger 100%.

     

    But thats not reality. Reality is, you get a lifetime sub for 250. You know he's going to close the game before it goes f2p if the game is that bad so as to -need- to go f2p to sustain itself. You know he's going to release the sourcecode of the game if he does closes it(idk if this has been confirmed so iffy on this one).

     

    So what grounds does anyone who's essentially INVESTING in the game to have it actually made to be mad when they're going into this knowing all the dangers and risks? I mean, sure be mad at the situation, but you can't be mad at the devs. You knew the risks, so be mad at yourself.(yourself as in, whoevers mad, not you since i know you mean the other OP)

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    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough. But it's not really the same, is it. Having the game hosted by a thrid party or even multiple third parties isn't the same as getting updates by a dev team that is continually working on the game. Also, everyone would lose all progress. I think it would still be a massive disappointment.

     

    But at least it would be F2P without a cash shop at that point even if it doesn't have any updates. Could be fun for some people.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough. But it's not really the same, is it. Having the game hosted by a thrid party or even multiple third parties isn't the same as getting updates by a dev team that is continually working on the game. Also, everyone would lose all progress. I think it would still be a massive disappointment.

     

    But at least it would be F2P without a cash shop at that point even if it doesn't have any updates. Could be fun for some people.

     at this point you're just arguing for arguments sake. you clearly refuse to see reason so im done with you.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • kaliniskalinis Member Posts: 1,428

    Mark jacobs had said it will be sucess at 50 k subs and that they are making the game for a niche sector of the mmo world they don't want or need 1 million subs although im sure they would take it. So i don't see him going free 2 play. jacobs really seems to be anti free 2 play in a huge way

    so i wouldn't worry. Plus most devs when go free 2 play give subs extra perks. Just look at tor and others. Ud still be a lifetime sub so ud get all the perks of those that subl Most have hybrid models like tor and them not a full free 2 play model. 

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by colddog04

    And that toddler would be fucking pissed that they just payed $250 for a game that they got for 3 months and will possibly never be able to play again - not that the game is going to shut down that quickly (or even be made for that matter). 

     

    But yeah, I don't think there are any grounds to be able to get your money back. I still think he makes a valid point. Saying that he will shut the game down before he takes the game to F2P could be potentially extremely disappointing to those that are actually enjoying the game at the time. Especially if taking the game to F2P could save the game and be profitable.

    that very same toddler would have NO fucking grounds to being mad. The guy is saying all this up front before you pay a fucking dime. If you then STILL decide to pay going into this knowing all of this. You have no fucking excuse for being mad.

     

    If you bought a lifetime sub and he didn't say upfront that he would close the game before going f2p(and giving extra goodies/benefits to life time subbers if it were to have gone f2p) and the game did close relatively quickly cause it couldn't keep up while being a sub game, THEN i will get behind your anger 100%.

     

    But thats not reality. Reality is, you get a lifetime sub for 250. You know he's going to close the game before it goes f2p if the game is that bad so as to -need- to go f2p to sustain itself. You know he's going to release the sourcecode of the game if he does closes it(idk if this has been confirmed so iffy on this one).

    It's in a list in one of the updates.

    7) We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.

     

    So what grounds does anyone who's essentially INVESTING in the game to have it actually made to be mad when they're going into this knowing all the dangers and risks? I mean, sure be mad at the situation, but you can't be mad at the devs. You knew the risks, so be mad at yourself.(yourself as in, whoevers mad, not you since i know you mean the other OP)

    Whether or not there are grounds for being angry is irrelevant. The emotional response is going to happen at that point. Pretending that because you believe people don't deserve to have an emotional response won't change the reality. People will be pissed/disappointed/sad/etc. And it's likely those emotions will be directed at the team that made the game and decided not to stick it out with an alternative payment model that may have saved the game.

     

    Personally, I think he made the claim because he knows that his audience is primarily made up of people that are disgusted with F2P games and are more accustomed to the P2P style. It gives those people hope. It's something they can believe in. But the reality of closing down a game based on principal is, at least to me, reckless and unwarranted. A B2P or F2P model could make a lot of sense. Especially if the game's PvP is solid.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough. But it's not really the same, is it. Having the game hosted by a thrid party or even multiple third parties isn't the same as getting updates by a dev team that is continually working on the game. Also, everyone would lose all progress. I think it would still be a massive disappointment.

     

    But at least it would be F2P without a cash shop at that point even if it doesn't have any updates. Could be fun for some people.

     at this point you're just arguing for arguments sake. you clearly refuse to see reason so im done with you.

    So, you don't see how having a dev team work on a game and bring updates is different than a 3rd party hosting the game on their servers? These servers could go down permanently at any time. There is no one that can be held accountable. Cheating/hacking/etc. can be allowed to run rampant because they won't have the resources to deal with it. There will likely be no more major updates. There will be little/no customer support. 

     

    I think people will be disappointed if the game is shut down early by CSE. I thought that was a given to most people. Especially people that end up actually liking the game.

  • SpeelySpeely Member CommonPosts: 861

    Whatever happens, I am sure someone, somewhere will weep in a corner and reflect upon those portions of their existence that caused them to make such a horrible, horrible mistake. The rest of their lives will be shaped by the folly of taking a chance on an original game design, and the promise of a good night's sleep will forever be foreign to them.

    That, or the code will be released and independent servers will pop up and those still wanting to play will be able to via said servers.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough.  ...

    That's not what was said / promised:

    Foundational Principle #14 – CSE SUBSCRIBER PROMISES – FIRST DRAFT 

    7) We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.  When the day comes that Camelot Unchained is shut down (only WoW will apparently live forever), we will make all the complied server code (and adequate installation and operations documentation) available through a code repository, without warranty of course and under the appropriate license(s) so that gamers can get the game back up and running.  In the event that we shut the company down, we will also add the source code to the repository unless prevented to by law/legal agreement

    Firstly - it's a DRAFT.  So it doesn't actually mean anything except "these are my thoughts so far".

    Secondly "unless prevented by law/legal agreement."

    City State Entertainment is an LLC.

    The stuff it owns... all the way from the pencils on the table to the code are NOT owned by Mark Jacobs.

    So, if CSE has any creditors at all (owes any money at all) including outstanding wages / taxes then no-one in that company has the power to simply give stuff away.  Because that code has value.  An that makes it a company asset.  And because it's an asset - even the directors of the company cannot simply 'give it away'.

    There are so many complications with that whole 'promise'.

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough.  ...

    That's not what was said / promised:

    Foundational Principle #14 – CSE SUBSCRIBER PROMISES – FIRST DRAFT 

    7) We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.  When the day comes that Camelot Unchained is shut down (only WoW will apparently live forever), we will make all the complied server code (and adequate installation and operations documentation) available through a code repository, without warranty of course and under the appropriate license(s) so that gamers can get the game back up and running.  In the event that we shut the company down, we will also add the source code to the repository unless prevented to by law/legal agreement

    Firstly - it's a DRAFT.  So it doesn't actually mean anything except "these are my thoughts so far".

    Secondly "unless prevented by law/legal agreement."

    City State Entertainment is an LLC.

    The stuff it owns... all the way from the pencils on the table to the code are NOT owned by Mark Jacobs.

    So, if CSE has any creditors at all (owes any money at all) including outstanding wages / taxes then no-one in that company has the power to simply give stuff away.  Because that code has value.  An that makes it a company asset.  And because it's an asset - even the directors of the company cannot simply 'give it away'.

    There are so many complications with that whole 'promise'.

     

    finally someone posting what was actually said.

     

    even aside from this whole 'promise', people have no right to call foul if they choose to purchase a lifetime sub and act like they should get their money back in the event he closes the game down rather than going f2p, regardless if he releases the compiled server code/source code.

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  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Member Posts: 405
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough.  ...

    That's not what was said / promised:

    Foundational Principle #14 – CSE SUBSCRIBER PROMISES – FIRST DRAFT 

    7) We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.  When the day comes that Camelot Unchained is shut down (only WoW will apparently live forever), we will make all the complied server code (and adequate installation and operations documentation) available through a code repository, without warranty of course and under the appropriate license(s) so that gamers can get the game back up and running.  In the event that we shut the company down, we will also add the source code to the repository unless prevented to by law/legal agreement

    Firstly - it's a DRAFT.  So it doesn't actually mean anything except "these are my thoughts so far".

    Secondly "unless prevented by law/legal agreement."

    City State Entertainment is an LLC.

    The stuff it owns... all the way from the pencils on the table to the code are NOT owned by Mark Jacobs.

    So, if CSE has any creditors at all (owes any money at all) including outstanding wages / taxes then no-one in that company has the power to simply give stuff away.  Because that code has value.  An that makes it a company asset.  And because it's an asset - even the directors of the company cannot simply 'give it away'.

    There are so many complications with that whole 'promise'.

     

    You seem like the type of person that would tell Mark Jacobs he is a CU fanboi like that other poster.  Guess who owns CSE?  Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs.  Guess who gets to do whatever they want with the source code?  Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs.  It's not a publicly traded company, which mean..  you know what? Why am I even wasting my time with this cesspool?

    I'm out.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by colddog04

    I understand he's going to release the code if the game doesn't end up doing well enough.  ...

    That's not what was said / promised:

    Foundational Principle #14 – CSE SUBSCRIBER PROMISES – FIRST DRAFT 

    7) We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.  When the day comes that Camelot Unchained is shut down (only WoW will apparently live forever), we will make all the complied server code (and adequate installation and operations documentation) available through a code repository, without warranty of course and under the appropriate license(s) so that gamers can get the game back up and running.  In the event that we shut the company down, we will also add the source code to the repository unless prevented to by law/legal agreement

    Firstly - it's a DRAFT.  So it doesn't actually mean anything except "these are my thoughts so far".

    Secondly "unless prevented by law/legal agreement."

    City State Entertainment is an LLC.

    The stuff it owns... all the way from the pencils on the table to the code are NOT owned by Mark Jacobs.

    So, if CSE has any creditors at all (owes any money at all) including outstanding wages / taxes then no-one in that company has the power to simply give stuff away.  Because that code has value.  An that makes it a company asset.  And because it's an asset - even the directors of the company cannot simply 'give it away'.

    There are so many complications with that whole 'promise'.

    Yeah, I think you are partly right about that. See, what you are describing is what happens during a bankruptcy. But if CSE pulls the plug on Camelot in favor of something else, they aren't going into bankruptcy, they are just taking the service offline. They can continue being a company and choose to make their code open source if they wish.

     

    Then again, if Camelot doesn't do well, it could end up taking the company with it. In this case I think you have a point. They may not legally be able to dole out the code to anyone.

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    .... 

    ...  Guess who owns CSE?  Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs.  Guess who gets to do whatever they want with the source code?  Mark Jacobs and Andrew Meggs.  It's not a publicly traded company, which mean..  ...

    I can finish that sentence for you... because you know what?  I own an "LLC" too.

    It's not a publicly traded company, which means that you have to be really careful not to break the "corporate veil".  Because if you do, the tax office will come down on you.  And they might even choose to do you for back taxes too on the grounds you were not operating within the rules.

    Also, a Director must act in the best interest of the company.  So simply 'giving stuff away' is really not an option.

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • redcappredcapp Member Posts: 722

    Thing is, niche games *don't* need to go f2p to stay afloat.

     

    Even DAoC and WAR are still sub games.  UO, EQ, AC.  Plenty of games have resisted the f2p bandwagon even though their populations shrink.

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic Member Posts: 222
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by colddog04

    And that toddler would be fucking pissed that they just payed $250 for a game that they got for 3 months and will possibly never be able to play again - not that the game is going to shut down that quickly (or even be made for that matter). 

     

    But yeah, I don't think there are any grounds to be able to get your money back. I still think he makes a valid point. Saying that he will shut the game down before he takes the game to F2P could be potentially extremely disappointing to those that are actually enjoying the game at the time. Especially if taking the game to F2P could save the game and be profitable.

    that very same toddler would have NO fucking grounds to being mad. The guy is saying all this up front before you pay a fucking dime. If you then STILL decide to pay going into this knowing all of this. You have no fucking excuse for being mad.

     

    If you bought a lifetime sub and he didn't say upfront that he would close the game before going f2p(and giving extra goodies/benefits to life time subbers if it were to have gone f2p) and the game did close relatively quickly cause it couldn't keep up while being a sub game, THEN i will get behind your anger 100%.

     

    But thats not reality. Reality is, you get a lifetime sub for 250. You know he's going to close the game before it goes f2p if the game is that bad so as to -need- to go f2p to sustain itself. You know he's going to release the sourcecode of the game if he does closes it(idk if this has been confirmed so iffy on this one).

    It's in a list in one of the updates.

    7) We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.

     

    So what grounds does anyone who's essentially INVESTING in the game to have it actually made to be mad when they're going into this knowing all the dangers and risks? I mean, sure be mad at the situation, but you can't be mad at the devs. You knew the risks, so be mad at yourself.(yourself as in, whoevers mad, not you since i know you mean the other OP)

    Whether or not there are grounds for being angry is irrelevant. The emotional response is going to happen at that point. Pretending that because you believe people don't deserve to have an emotional response won't change the reality. People will be pissed/disappointed/sad/etc. And it's likely those emotions will be directed at the team that made the game and decided not to stick it out with an alternative payment model that may have saved the game.

     

    Personally, I think he made the claim because he knows that his audience is primarily made up of people that are disgusted with F2P games and are more accustomed to the P2P style. It gives those people hope. It's something they can believe in. But the reality of closing down a game based on principal is, at least to me, reckless and unwarranted. A B2P or F2P model could make a lot of sense. Especially if the game's PvP is solid.

    Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.

     

    There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.

     

    Something called reputation.

     

    We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.

     

    How can you expect to know or to be known by anyone if the players change every month because of the casual crowd?

     

    That's why FTP would ruin the game.

     

    I will aso add than i prefer much more to have the dev working on the actual game instead of working on a good cash shop for the BTP/FTP model.

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