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"Critical Review" Issues and will they even be adressed?
socalsk8tr
Member Posts: 65
So I've been playing in closed beta for a little over 6 months now off and on and each time things have been somewhat different especially this being more like an alpha instead of a closed beta test. Even now with the announcement of open beta coming in july players on the forums have been telling the dev's to call it an open alpha instead of beta cause they fear how new players will look at this game.
There is a severe lack of content at the moment though this is supposedly being adressed in coming months leading up to open beta so only time will tell if that content is actually note worthy or not or whether its actually enough or not. All current content (the things you can do in the game currently) takes no more than 15 minutes to complete thats it nothing more. I haven't tried the pvp side of this game as its just not something that even remotely apeals to me in the sense of an f/tps so I won't mention it here. Though the major bulk of content is supposed to be coming soon I'd rather wait till I've actually tried it and seen for myself what its actually like before talking more about it it could be amazing and keep me immersed in game play for hours or it could be a half hour deal that is just as boring as what we currently have.
However I've noticed some trending in the game and expressed concerns about them on the forums and typically I just recieve a backlash of fanboi's (yes they're fanbois every thread with anything negative said its the same forum members that jump in defending the game). One issue is the imbalance of frames in a pve sense, the frame known as the bastion engineer frame has the ability to throw out multiple automated turrets that automatically track every target within a set range and attack it till the turret is either destroyed or the target dies. This frame when selecting its abilities allow's that you can use up to 4 of these turrests at a time that will auto target/attack/kill any enemy within its range. This frame has made the main point of collecting resources abundantly easy to a point where 90% of the frames you see when players get together to gather anything is this one class it outshines all others. There is no encouragement to play another frame for the most part because of this other frames just don't come up to par with this one.
Another issue is the gathering of resources. Thumping in paticularly, This is where a player calls down a mining drill that drops from the sky and it begins drilling on a resource vein gathering that resource. This is the main way of any sort of progression in the game as resources are required to unlock the constraints on each frame which in turn increases the amount of power mass and cpu each frame possess. Increasing those constraints while lowering your cost for each peice of equipment used will increase flight time/run speed attack power and radius. There are a few other things these can affect such as clip size and spread but not as significant as the others areas mentioned.
Now to the thumping part of it. When using the thumper players drop this drill it mines for resources however dropping this drill causes monsters to spawn all around it that dislike the fact that your doing it in the first place so they come to destroy the thumper and kill you if they can. This is the whole selling point of the gathering system in the game its very unique in a sense that your not just grabbing whatever node you came across and moving on to the next (you can as there are surface deposits you can break then move on but its no where nearly as efficient as thumping). You actually have to fight and defend the thumpers to prevent them from being destroyed this is the only thing that makes it interesting or a challenge in any way. Further more the larger the thumper the more resources you get and the harder they're supposed to be. However, there are areas players can drop the thumpers that prevent the monsters from being able to get to it at all I proved this earlier today finding a resource vein and dropping a thumper and literally shot about 5 shots to kill anything that got close to my thumper. This is about 4 mobs out of the 20-30 that were spawned to attack the thumper in the first place.
I tried asking the forum members in the game if they felt this issue should be adressed because hypothetically I could take a thumper that under normal circumstances takes about 8-10 players to finish and even when they do finish they cut it close with the thumper nearly being destroyed and solo it getting the same amount of resources 8-10 other people worked much harder for. There have already been bug exploits in firefall in closed beta and there really wasn't ever any punishment of the testers, they were allowed to keep the stuff they'd gotten through exploits which was converted into a new item that will be used for an exclusive item store before open beta launch that this currency will be used for. (if you want to know about this resource and the types of items you can get look up "beta crystite and you" within firefall you'll see the kind of items exploiters will have a chance to get for abusing a bug in the game.
Now with these areas I asked the community if they felt it should be changed to prevent further exploiting (basically abusing a mechanic that prevents any monster from attacking with the occasional few that do find their way to the thumper) and they feel its not even an exploit they say its being strategic or its an issue with the AI pathing of the monsters. However its not the arahna monsters path to the thumpers just fine because they can scale vertical walls none of the other ai can do this so they're stuck 50 meters below the thumper walking around looking stupid. I said its one thing to strategically place the thumper that forces the ai to path through a choke point but to prevent it from ever attacking at all in a bug and or exploit and needed to be adressed. However some did see what I was saying they understand the point I'm making but a decent majority feels its a non issue to the game and it doesn't effect them. Wait till they add trading in the game as of now there is no in game economy because there is no trading whatsoever though it will be added later on I can only imagine the reprocussions this type of mentality will end up having in the game.
Comments
I've been in the 'Beta' for over a year. And you've summed up a good amount of the issues. They've changed core mechanics THREE times now and honestly what they had before the current build was a LOT better.
Now it takes longer to get resources and crafting is just retarded. You make 10 sub-components to make 5 other components to finally make your final 1 item. Furthermore the new unlock system is shit, just like the crafting system you get earn 10 merits to get 1 badge then 10 badges to get 1 medal. This along with the crafting is pointless and just time consuming.
Before ore's use to vary in what they were good for now there is only 1 or 2 ores that are simply the best.
R5 had my support, I put 100$ in last year cause I believed in what they were doing but I feel they have lost sight completely.
Sad to say, this game is going to fail big time if R5 doesn't buckle down and finalize their design. They've taken far too long to accomplish basically nothing.
If I were an investor, I'd be lighting a fire under someone's ass.
Yea with the entire character system and resource/crafting being revamped so many times they've really set themselves back ten fold. I think they were receiving some heat though from the9 as they are the primary investor in the game though I can't say the game will be successful or flop just yet I think that will primarily depend on the content thats going to be released prior to open beta july 9th. I just can't ignore these issues I see in the game currently though that have such a large place in the over all gameplay itself and the fact that they haven't planned on adressing these issues or at least stated they plan to adress them is a big red flag for me.
Hopefully with open beta comes an onsalaught of motivation to get things in perspective and truly moving and even then if that does come hopefully they can handle it and adress it in a timely manner for now only time will tell whether they can succeed or not but I'm no where near having my hopes up just yet.
I think red5 ruined a very fun game
for their new iteration of the game they took all the previous systems and made them more annoying and to take longer to do
so they took their previous limited content and stretched it to the breaking point because they ran out of ideas or the devs just got tired - my vote is on the tired
Wow, just read through a few. Although I certainly have no way of knowing just how truthful certain statements are, the development cycle of the game over the past couple of years certainly corroborates some of them. Such a damned shame.
With all the time sinks and such added recently, I think perhaps they're going to attempt to sell a ton of 'convenience' items in the cash shop in order to make some quick cash before the game self-destructs completely. I hope I'm wrong, but one can't ignore the signs either...
I've been in the beta for over a year and I'd like to throw my two cents in here:
First, the "no content" argument is a rather misleading statement. There are no real quests outside the opening missions (that can in fact be completed in about 15 minutes). However the design of the game has never been to have lots of quest content and anyone who has paid attention to dev videos and blogs should know this. Given the OPs opening statement that he/she has been in beta for 6 months I find this a rather surprising summation of the game.
Second, the constant revamps of the game's progression system has been annoying. In this I agree with the OP. The jusitification for this is that it was based on user feedback. Personally I like the new system but the previous iteration wasn't bad in my opinion. This has indeed slowed the games progress to release but I don't necessarily feel that it will ruin the game but it does tend to turn most gamers off when they here it's been in CBT for over 2 years (if memory serves).
Third, as much people knock PvE (which is actually where the game is strongest at the moment), it is PvP that is lacking and this is coming from someone who mostly plays PvE. There are only 4 maps and two game modes, furthermore most of the players that do play are very good and usually wipe the floor with the inexperienced. This isn't necessarily Red 5s fault given that the PvP community is small enough that the matchmaker can't really sort players all that well.
Fourth, in regards to PvE I'll list the content currently available. Dynamic Missions: Melding Tornado, Crashed Thumper, Crashed LGV, Holmgang Tech Recovery, LGV Races (player created and static ones), Chosen Incursion, Chosen Invasion (currently they attack and control watchtowers, destroy and occupy SIN towers and attack Thump Dump and Sunken Harbor in large scale siege attacks). Player activated missions are Thumping (calling device that harvests materials while you defend it) and Patrol missions where you travel to different points on the map and usually encounter small enemy groups at each location. ARES Missions, which are randomized indoor (non-instanced) encounters with three potential mission types that occur against three different enemy types (Bandits, Arahnas and Chosen).
Fifth, I too have looked at Glassdoor but I'm not sure how much I trust that. In total 8 reviews with 5 being negative. I would hardly call that trustworthy given how few wrote reviews. Thats not to say that they're wrong or right but simply that it's weak ground upon which to base an argument.
In summary there are people who don't like Firefall and of those many have valid reasons, from how long it has taken to reach this point to it's many changes of core systems etc. I encourage everyone to make up their own mind particularly by checking the game out for yourself. Personally I like the game but it's one that is probably not for everyone but it does have a strong community of good people and the interaction with the devs is fantastic in my opinion. While the long road of this games CBT is one that seemed to be without end, I think it may workout for the best if they keep a level head and stay with the "it's done when it's done" motto rather than releasing early. In many ways they're aiming for a true beta test and not a marketing beta meant to drum up hype. If you interested in Firefall take a look for yourself and feel free to message me if you need help as I'm more than happy to show anyone the ropes. Lastly if you like the idea of a shooter but prefer linear quests of contemporary MMO's, then I'd recommend Defiance instead.
I hope this helps clarify and let me know if something needs elaboration.
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EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
although this post gives a sense of "meh" as far as a review for this game is concerned - this part needs a bit of clarification
melding tornado - interesting the first couple times but because the rewards are not worth the length of time it takes this is actually a negative
crashed thumper - exact same thing each time - grabe 4/5 parts and fight off the same creatures you fight endlessly while grinding thumpers - again rewards are minimal
crashed LGV - 2 types - one it blows up in your face so don't stand too close - pitiful reward - two you have to stand around and protect it from bandits - somewhat lengthy and again the rewards are pitiful - you are actually hoping for drops of which might number 5 or 6 of which you actually need 1,000 (yes, 1000) to craft into a component that is used to create something else (good luck with this as that part isn't even in game yet)
Holmgang - see above - again a few drops for which you need 1,000 each - we all like the grind don't we
LGV Races - pointless but is a bit of fun
Chosen - lordy - fun getting shot by something with complete accuracy from completely across the map (almost an exaggeration) - no, not fun but you can bring them down for pointless rewards
ARES Mission - pitiful rewards for time spent
a word (or two) about rewards - the main rewards for all your efforts in everything in this game are experience points and the in-game money called crystite - both of which have turned out to be almost completely useless in the present game - a huge grind with no reward - more fun
now if you enjoy grind - and a huge pointless grind with jetboots you should have a grand time here
red5 has completely forgotten about the carrot but they certainly know a whole lot about the stick
The rewards do need to be increased for events however the dynamic missions seem to generate more XP where as thumping garners more resources. Additionally you recieve certain components that are used in certain recipes. An example is the Crystite Engine you receive from running a crash thumper event. The engines are used in crafting larger thumpers which can in turn be used to gather more resources.
I'm hoping I'm just misunderstanding you Gatheris but you state:
"you are actually hoping for drops of which might number 5 or 6 of which you actually need 1,000 (yes, 1000) to craft into a component that is used to create something else (good luck with this as that part isn't even in game yet)"
Are you stating that crafting itelf is not in game? If so this is completely and utterly false. If your speaking about advancement the amount required to upgrade your battleframe is 10,000 in the latter parts of progression. If this is your gripe then it is indeed understandable though if I may, Phobos, the community manager has stated that they intended those to be set high and then adjust down from there depending on feedback. A lot of the playerbase is in favor of dropping this and I tend to agree that the amount of time it would take to grind is rather steep at the moment.
In respect to your comments about the Chosen, they do indeed have some pretty serious aim. However try getting some players together. Are you attempting to stop a Chosen Invasion single handedly? If so, then wouldn't you say it is appropriate that a single player should not be able to stop an entire invasion. For the most part hit and run attacks from a reasonable distance tends to work well (I'm assuming your aim issue is with the juggernauts?).
Your post overall is constantly about rewards which again let me say I do agree need to be increased but isn't the reason we play games because they are fun? I understand the frustration of low rewards vs time spent but your comments about Crysitite being useless is odd given the announcement that you will be able to turn Crysite into Beta Crysite (a reward for refining the now useless resources post 0.6) and that Beta Crysite will offer unique rewards that will only be available to those in Closed Beta. Perhaps not what your looking for but it should at least offer those who have a large reserve of crystite a chance to off load that into something worthwile.
I hope this perhaps clarifies things a bit but you sound a bit like me a few months back so if I may offer some further advice. Put some feedback together that clearly reflects your opinion and submit it to the devs. Then perhaps take a break, it worked wonders for me and prevented burnout. I really don't understand why so many judge the game so harshly given that it's in beta. To those who would argue that little changes once a game is in beta (this is the case in pretty much every game so I can understand the reasoning behind such a belief) consider how much has changed in the last year, if anything the team has shown that they are willing to change and abandon features that don't serve the game (though this is subject to their opinion and thus creates stigma in the playerbase over too much change).
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EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
nope, played quite a bit since the recent "update"
again crystite is useless in game at this time - some mysterious store will open up soon(tm) - kinda enjoyed all the grinding that took place in the previous version of the game and then with the "update" and everyone realised all that grinding was for nothing but "beta crystite", pretty funny
experience too is basically useless - "spent" what i needed on frames and still have about 1,000,000 (yes that is a million) and i'm not exactly hard core - you use a bit to update your frames a bit but then you hit the wall of the ridiculous resource requirements to actually advance that frame - but grind some more - devs seem to have fogotten that progression should come from playing the game - not focusing on one individual part - thumping (mining) - that is why the nickname "world of thumpers"
so, increasing the currently worthless rewards is pointless - bigger nothing is still nothing
of course crafting is in game - i was typing about the ridiculously small amount of "chosen tech" "accord tech" doodads that drop from "missions" - but again a total grind because you need to get the equivalent of 1,000 of these in order to craft the "tech" you need to actually use it for crafting, but that "recipe" isn't even in game - more worthless rewards
yup, it is beta - as i have been a witness to other dev game destructions during beta in the past i'm quite saddened by what has been done to what was once a really fun, addictive game
but the bottom line is the ol' carrot and stick thing doesn't work with firefall because there is no carrot so why play
open beta in june/july - that will be entertaining
grind away though
obviously yours and my opinions of content are extremely different if you consider everything in the game world itself content well then yea they have tons but for me having 5-6 different things to do (none of which take longer than 15-20 minutes maximum soloing) and thats pretty much it I consider that an extreme lack of content in my opinion. The main problem with the content is it lacks anything that draws you into the game making you feel the need to do it for any reason whatso ever other than to add to the grind of progression. The ares missions aren't horrible they're a good opener for newer players but the fact that I can complete every ounce of content in the game in under 2 hours aside from crafting better gear is an issue for me. I don't even try the pvp haven't yet and most likely never will if firefall was a pvp only game and had no pve or world map I'd never have glanced at it more than the first trailer I saw. Thats the kind of content I want for this game those are the things I think it needs to succeed fighting things like the Giant Titan Arahana and more things just like it.
Melding tornado's have been the funnest thing in game to do for me I even suggested instead of having the lousy content of the portal be changed towards something that actually gave it some sort of lore in the game as currently its some random thing that just happens no one knows why its there what it does and it doesn't effect anything whether you destroy it or let it stay. I suggested instead of having it be a mad dash to destroy the crystals inside throw some sort of chosen inside and some sort of mini boss make it like they were arc porting somewhere to take over some POI and had some sort of malfunction which caused the tornado. If the players that got inside failed at killing them then they spawn in the map near where the tornado was in large groups and take over watchtowers and such if they succeed congrats that area is safe for some amount of time.
They've promised alot of content to be coming soon in the next few months before open beta July 9th however again I base my opinion on whats there not whats supposedly going to be there cause we all know thats subject to change and nothing is set in stone. Now it should be obvious as well that I don't hate the game I actually love certain aspects of it if I'd hated it do you really think I'd have wasted my own time on their forums and others expressing the concerns I have with the game? If I'd actually hated it I wouldn't have even wasted my time mentioning the game or posting anything about it even if its negative feedback I'm giving others still take notice they wonder what drove this person and inspired them to write such a wall of text about the game in the first place and if they did it obviously has to have something good about it I'm just saying.
@ Gatheris: First off it's actually 10,000 for the first unlock and even more of the later ones, not that it helps my point but I will admit it is a long process. The devs did indeed anger the player base when they killed the old resources system, however the point of beta crystite was to offer rewards for those who had a large stock of useless resources. From browsing through the "Beta Crystite and You" thread on the Official Forums, most players seem to like but I can understand why some don't.
I've never heard of the "World of Thumpers" but thumping has been a core part of the game, it's the prime way of gathering resources. Generally the Events and missions provide some resources and a lot of XP where as thumping provides lots of resources and low XP. In a few hours one could grab about 1,000 of a particular resource so the progression isn't impossible but it's something that will take time. Personally I enjoy fighting the Chosen during Sunken Harbor and Thump Dump invasions; those have (in my opinion) become a much better feature of the game, especially if you fail. We've known for a long time that the chosen tech has been useless and that at some point it will serve a purpose (or perhaps be done away with) but seeing as no one goes out to grind chosen tech I don't see the issue. When I said to increase the rewards I meant that the Ceramic Composites that are needed to improve your frame should be given out and at a decent amount, hopefully to invigorate the game and make events more worthwhile, objectively speaking this is a great point and I hope you've provided feedback on this.
I'm interested to see just how much they will introduce prior to open beta as I think a lot of people are so stuck on the idea of "quests" that Firefall may have a hard time grabbing players and showing them how it works. Still I've had some interaction with Phobos in regards to this and he seems confident, though I suppose as a community manager that is his job. Still it is time for this game to stop waiting and completely re-doing core systems which are what has caused this beta to drag on, still the game feels better than ever as far as content goes.
@socalsk8tr: Well defining content is something difficult to do, but yes I do define content as the world itself at least as far as the events and missions go. Also not everything is soloable, for example something like a Chosen Invasion, Chosen Incursion, Melding Tornado and Baneclaw all require teams (especially Baneclaw). If you're looking for quests other than the opening few that serve as a tutorial/introduction there will not be any. Red5 has stated numerous times that they have no plans to make quest content but instead continue to increase the dynamic feel of the world. Specifically the Chosen Warfront and pushing back the melding are what they plan to implement to really bring this into fruition. Currently Sunken Harbor and Thump Dump server as the testing ground as the Chosen attack these two places with siege weapons and failure to repel them results in a melding collapse that covers most of the city. Obviously this is a very small taste of it but it serves to test that system which I'm assuming we'll see later this year (probably after open beta begins sadly enough).
I'm glad to see you've provided feedback as that is the best way to call attention things that don't work.
If you two (or anyone else) has questions please feel free to reply or hit up my inbox, always glad to help.
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EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
This is a beta, The cost for upgrades to your frames will be changed. The beta crystite items/bonuses look pretty cool. The UI and Content change all the time. If you are in the beta, Have you tried any of the player mods and addons? Just giving your testers the ability to do that stuff is awesome.
@Eisn I've done all the content every single thing in game other than baneclaw and your wrong about incursions/invasions/melding tornadoes being soloable I have soloed them even after they made them harder.
I'll put it this way...
Sunken Harbor/Thumpdump Chosen Seige: 10-15 minute defensive battle can be completed by as little as 5-10 players varies with skill level. If failed Melding wall swallows area for 3 hours. 4/5 stars for me one of the better things to do in the game takes some actual strategizing and even possilbly forces you to communicate/cooperate with other players to be successful. That said still way too short should be half hour battle minimal and rewards should be good enough to get 20-30 people at least into wanting to particepate being these are two of the largest hub areas we have on the entire map right now.
Crashed thumper: Random spawn anywhere throughout the map same scripted content every time grab node run to node rinse repeat... This is pretty much the same thing as what you would call a quest you just don't have an npc with an ! over their head you have to pick it up from first. In fact its worse Oil Spill constantly spams you telling you where they are and to go fix them and its just the same as an item gather quest you gather 5 parts of an item and return them so that item can be fixed paint it however you want its still the same thing. 1/5 stars easy takes less than 2 minutes to complete also repititive and annoying.
Crashed LGV: theres two different types one just blows up gives you stuff the other is basically like thumping you defend a node from scripted event its always the same just placed differently throughout the map at random. again 1/5 stars I've even found that some of these you don't even have to do anything the spawned mobs dont even aggro again this is a 2 to 3 minute peices of content.
Ares missions: 3 basic Variences- Either A go in grab item and return it to node outside B: Go in search and destroy Nodes this means finding what it is needed to be destroyed and holding E for a few seconds you don't even have to kill anything if you don't want. C: terminals that have been hacked - this is basically the same as be only the nodes you hold E on dont explode afterwards. The only other variable in all of these is wether its bandits chosen or arahna in each one of these varients. 2.5/5 stars decent fluff but still very repetitive and does not really draw you into the game any more than any other aspect. 3-15 minutes to complete based on which variant you run into and whether your running solo or with other players.
Thumping : Most common thing to do in game basically gathering resources. This is a decent varient from what youd typically expect when going to gather a mineral in any MMO its a great idea and has great potential for future growth. Again though it gets repetitive players call down thumper on resource node and defend that thumper from spawned waves of monsters. The monsters will be the same the only time they change is dependant on where you are on the map and the size of the thumper you use. Larger thumper = more resources= more monters= more difficulty. Change of area same scenario every time you'll even begin to notice at what times the waves will spawn as well as be able to predict where they will spawn. However it all boils down to that your protecting a node from waves of monsters you could call it an npc with an hp bar doesn't matter same concept good idea has potential but needs to be built upon more as well as fix the area of map that allow players to bypass the waves of monsters that spawn. 2.5/5 stars again this only takes about 5-10 minutes to finish each time and its alot of rinse repeat.
Melding Tornadoes: around 15-20 minute battle. this is one of the more interesting things to do currently but again does get very repitive. 4 floating nodes around a tornado each must be destroyed to open up and expose the core. Waves of melded monsters will spawn (Melded is a way of adding different skins to the same AI as is found in the open world they both have all the same abilities/statistical attributes just different looks). The spawns are a little more random however and can't really be timed as with the thumper spawns. Nodes will also spawn on the ground after each floating node is destroyed which in turn can be destroyed to yield small amounts of resources. Core is basically a 5th floating node that apears after the 4 initial nodes are destroyed after this is destroyed a small cloud apears which is actually a portal you can travel through for a very short period of time. Basically takes you into an odd dimension that will collapse after about 1 and a half to two minutes where you can either rush to destroy a few of the crystals that spawn for a small amount of resources or kill some of the waves of monsters that spawn for a meager amount of experience points. 3.7/5 stars this is the best peice of content they currently have for any pve its by far the funnest thing to do for me the chosen siege is fun as well but for me in an MMO they are just far too small a scale. These would all be great mechanics and content if it was me and just a few buddies on a console or something goofing around but its far to repetitive and does not draw me in nearly enough to have me want to do it on a daily basis.
This is why I express these fears to them in their forums and here on this forum. Its not about attracting players that will at least try the game but what are they gonna do to keep them here past a weeks time. I can't count the whole world itself as content not when that content is scripted and dynamically placed throughout the world every random monster I run into in the world I can't consider content as well thats just something to hide the fact that theres nothing to do around this area. I mean for them calling the game a 1/10 scale version of the world once we open up the melding how big do you think copa is even at a 1/10 size copa would be a few square blocks at best.
Further more theres issues with this current content especially with their whole everyone can particepate and get rewarded thing they got going on. I can at a crashed LGV call down the dataworm and never interact with it beyond that however if someone else comes along and goes through the whole process of defending it for the 2 and a half minutes I get the same rewards as them - the exp/hassle of killing the monsters. Thats just barely brushing the surface of the issues I can see facing the game. Alls I'll say is this is gonna end as a pass fail thing whether anyone likes it or not and that pass or fail is gonna depend primarily on this content they say they're gonna release prior to open beta and how well its actually thought through and fleshed out and whether its in depth enough or not to keep people around.
As I said this is a waiting game they may say this is a open beta and give you this idea of what they consider an open beta because its what you want to hear. Personally I think they're worried as well as the9 investing in them is pushing on them as well that the game wont be able to draw in enough players to sustain an income. They have to reach a certain quota of players that are willing to shell out a few bucks now and again just to run the game it isn't free to run and no companies gonna invest money to break even either thats just the reality of it.
/endrant
srry for wallotext cant sleep and toothache driving me crazy T.T