If you are seriously holding that up as a reason to fund CU... well, your cause is lost.
For a start, the CU community is hardly a shining beacon of goodness. And it's already fractured.
Even before the game gets off the ground the CU 'community' is already addressing anyone who dares to stray from the 'faith' as a "troll" and tell people to move along as the game is ".... not for you LOL."
As I have said from the beginning - one of the classic mistakes MJ has made (yet again) is not to have official developer forums from day one. Some thing he could control and moderate to build the community CSE wanted.
And making factual mistakes destroys all credibility.
I don't care either way if this thing gets funded, I think in the end it won't be a success if it is released, but I'm looking forward to the end of this KS because I'm pretty annoyed seeing multiple threads daily about supporting this game. Enough already.
I just checked out this campaign and I am not even remotely interested. Besides I wouldn´t have faith in a project which does not show some convincing alpha gameplay snippets. I don´t even see what a success of this campaign has to do with "the industry".
There already were far more successful Kickstarters out there, e.g. Star Citizen, Double Fine, Elite and lots of others showing that it can work, they already changed "the industry" and don´t need Camelot as a "me too" project.
Not every game concept on Kickstarter can be successful.
If a campaign fails, the concept / presentation failed, not some mythical "industry changing" project. Also - too little, too late.
The problem is if it fails it gives all the corporate people that keep ruining our games more sway to say "see, they dont want innovation".
There isn't that much "innovation".
There are only promises.
If they prove to yield ANYTHING, we'll see. At the end of the day even most of their ideas aren't really innovations merely refining or rehashing old mechanics.
When CU fails to KS it means NOTHING at all for the industry...it will be a faded memory for those of you that were so passionately trying to hold onto jaded memories of what you think used to be.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by TierlessThe problem is if it fails it gives all the corporate people that keep ruining our games more sway to say "see, they dont want innovation".
Well i have to say this...
CU is not about innovation... it is if anything the exact opposite. It is about conservative thinking about a age of games that are pretty much by now.. gone.
It is more advanced but that is not the same thing and if their engine can do what they claim it will be able to do. That might be a innovation... but this is not a kickstarter for a engine...
So i would not worry about that. If anything it will prove to all the companies that follow in the wake of Blizzard they they did the right thing to move towards a"safe" PvE centric experience.. But i do not think it will be held up as a beacon of innovation.
The Depths, The Veil, Crowd Funded MMO, Crowd Sourcing for decisions in the MMO, can you explain how those things are not innovative?
The Depths...done before. DAoC.
The Veil...a sad story device in a PvP centric game that will see very little story.
Crowd-funding/sourcing etc....if you think the community has ANYTHING to say on the project then I have a project for you to invest in...I'll even let you decide what it is and how it's made, only $10,000.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I'm a backer of CU, but I don't think hype about changing the industry is helpful to any game. Look how well that turned out for GW 2. I don't see lots of games in development adopting its innovations. In fact a lot of the design of CU itself is a reaction against games like GW 2. Claiming a game or worse yet the way a game is funded is going to be the biggest thing since sliced bread just makes the person saying that and the game he is trying to promote look ridiculous. If anything, the CU Kickstarter is likely to give many players MMO Kickstarter fatigue and make it more difficult for new MMOs to fund on Kickstarter.
This game sure does attract it's share of drama queens. There is no way a game this hyped is ever going to live up to what people want. You've all seen what happens when the foaming at the mouth fan doesn't get exactly when "it" wants on launch day when they log in.
There's a reason some people think every game sucks and spend all their time on a forum dreaming about the greatest game ever that's going to be made....and what they turn into once yet again the game doesn't live up to their unreal expectations.
A game with such a small following filled with these people.....This game doesn't stand a chance.
Originally posted by TierlessThe problem is if it fails it gives all the corporate people that keep ruining our games more sway to say "see, they dont want innovation".
Well i have to say this...CU is not about innovation... it is if anything the exact opposite. It is about conservative thinking about a age of games that are pretty much by now.. gone.It is more advanced but that is not the same thing and if their engine can do what they claim it will be able to do. That might be a innovation... but this is not a kickstarter for a engine...So i would not worry about that. If anything it will prove to all the companies that follow in the wake of Blizzard they they did the right thing to move towards a"safe" PvE centric experience.. But i do not think it will be held up as a beacon of innovation.
The Depths, The Veil, Crowd Funded MMO, Crowd Sourcing for decisions in the MMO, can you explain how those things are not innovative?
The Depths...done before. DAoC.
The Veil...a sad story device in a PvP centric game that will see very little story.
Crowd-funding/sourcing etc....if you think the community has ANYTHING to say on the project then I have a project for you to invest in...I'll even let you decide what it is and how it's made, only $10,000.
In DAOC were you able to play NPCs after you died?
The Veil-little story, WTF, that doesnt even make sense. Someone didn't do his homework. Get back to be on the veil when your knowledgeable about it.
Crowdfunding, yes, letting the community make decisions on the MMO, no. Considering how many times MJ has already asked us for feedback and used it I guarantee he will continue utilizing us.
Your not a very good troll, I recommend doing your research first, otherwise you just sound foolish.
I'm not trolling...the fact that you try to make your case simply by refuting what I said rather than proving your point shows how shallow your post was.
Wow...playing as NPCs...so amazing..oh right LOTR:O (need I say it? Been done)
If you're referring to the idiotic stealth mechanic as "The Veil" then...yay....again so glad this KS will fail and this idea falls to nothing. BTW...changing the name of something and just penalizing you for using it doesn't mean much. It's not innovation it's just pulling the wool over the eyes of the masses.
And...again...you miss the point. I'll try to bring it down a bit. MJ might be asking, talking, etc...but that means NOTHING until you're playing the game and actually see that your "input" has made any difference, which it won't.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by TierlessThe problem is if it fails it gives all the corporate people that keep ruining our games more sway to say "see, they dont want innovation".
Well i have to say this...
CU is not about innovation... it is if anything the exact opposite. It is about conservative thinking about a age of games that are pretty much by now.. gone.
It is more advanced but that is not the same thing and if their engine can do what they claim it will be able to do. That might be a innovation... but this is not a kickstarter for a engine...
So i would not worry about that. If anything it will prove to all the companies that follow in the wake of Blizzard they they did the right thing to move towards a"safe" PvE centric experience.. But i do not think it will be held up as a beacon of innovation.
The Depths, The Veil, Crowd Funded MMO, Crowd Sourcing for decisions in the MMO, can you explain how those things are not innovative?
Crowd Funded MMO, Crowd Sourcing for decisions in the MMO: Neither of these are particullarly innovative per se. Anything can be crowd funded.. that is sort of the whole point of crowd funding. Neither is really asking your playerbase for what they want.
The depths: Not really anything new again.. Cool yes but not new. Heck even Project Entropia had something similar (not underground.. but still) as it combined PvP zone with high end materials.
The Veil: Interesting idea.. but deffo not something new and innovatie.
Now do not get me wrong... It is ok to not be innovative.. especially when you are aiming for a very specific group of customers. In fact it is most likley for the best.
They could easily have called it stealth, it's just a gimmick and a change of name to get people to accept it and not associate it with the negative connotation of stealth. Simple psychology, and while that's brilliant the mechanic isn't innovative. This is just a smart marketing ploy so they can say they don't have stealth in the game.
In the end...there will be guys you cannot see.
.....................you will be ganked.
.....................they are just limiting how many can group together.
.....................there will be a class that can see "stealthers" (veilwalkers).
Again...all marketing. I take that back though....there won't be any of it and there won't be stealth in it, because it dies in 5 days.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by TierlessThe problem is if it fails it gives all the corporate people that keep ruining our games more sway to say "see, they dont want innovation".
Well i have to say this...CU is not about innovation... it is if anything the exact opposite. It is about conservative thinking about a age of games that are pretty much by now.. gone.It is more advanced but that is not the same thing and if their engine can do what they claim it will be able to do. That might be a innovation... but this is not a kickstarter for a engine...So i would not worry about that. If anything it will prove to all the companies that follow in the wake of Blizzard they they did the right thing to move towards a"safe" PvE centric experience.. But i do not think it will be held up as a beacon of innovation.
The Depths, The Veil, Crowd Funded MMO, Crowd Sourcing for decisions in the MMO, can you explain how those things are not innovative?
The Depths...done before. DAoC.
The Veil...a sad story device in a PvP centric game that will see very little story.
Crowd-funding/sourcing etc....if you think the community has ANYTHING to say on the project then I have a project for you to invest in...I'll even let you decide what it is and how it's made, only $10,000.
In DAOC were you able to play NPCs after you died?
The Veil-little story, WTF, that doesnt even make sense. Someone didn't do his homework. Get back to be on the veil when your knowledgeable about it.
Crowdfunding, yes, letting the community make decisions on the MMO, no. Considering how many times MJ has already asked us for feedback and used it I guarantee he will continue utilizing us.
Your not a very good troll, I recommend doing your research first, otherwise you just sound foolish.
I'm not trolling...the fact that you try to make your case simply by refuting what I said rather than proving your point shows how shallow your post was.
Wow...playing as NPCs...so amazing..oh right LOTR:O (need I say it? Been done)
If you're not referring to the idiotic stealth mechanic as "The Veil" then...yay....again so glad this KS will fail and this idea falls to nothing. BTW...changing the name of something and just penalizing you for using it doesn't mean much. It's not innovation it's just pulling the wool over the eyes of the masses.
And...again...you miss the point. I'll try to bring it down a bit. MJ might be asking, talking, etc...but that means NOTHING until you're playing the game and actually see that your "input" has made any difference, which it won't.
First time I heard MJ talk about NPCs in The Depths I thought of LotRO PvMP.
Also, Cirin isn't trolling. Right on the Kickstarter page, it says CU is supposed to be a "Counter-Revolutionary Game"
Mark has always called his online games evolutionary with a mix of revolutionary features. This one will be no different, as it will draw a lot of inspiration from “old school” games and MMORPGs while also mixing in some new features...We're not talking about spawn-camping for 24 hours straight, but rather the sense of pride from succeeding in a challenging game rather than one which hands you everything on a silver platter.
There are a few new and interesting things, but most of the game is going to an updated version of older MMOs.
They could easily have called it stealth, it's just a gimmick and a change of name to get people to accept it and not associate it with the negative connotation of stealth. Simple psychology, and while that's brilliant the mechanic isn't innovative. This is just a smart marketing ploy so they can say they don't have stealth in the game.
In the end...there will be guys you cannot see.
.....................you will be ganked.
.....................they are just limiting how many can group together.
.....................there will be a class that can see "stealthers" (veilwalkers).
Again...all marketing. I take that back though....there won't be any of it and there won't be stealth in it, because it dies in 5 days.
All Veil-walkers should be able to see eachother inside of the Veil. So while non-Veil-Walkers will be unable to see Veil-Walkers, there is the potential for "stealth fights" inside of the Veil between Veil-Walkers.
That's why it's a bit more like planeswalking than stealth, but it should be referred to as stealth for the sake fo simplicity.
I'd be interested if the hype wasn't so typical. It is always like this. Remember the days before Darkfall came out? Yea, everyone was thought it was the new deal - turned out to be a wasteland within weeks. All this excitement and hype fade once people actually play the game, which will then be followed by complaint threads, griefing threads, QQ nerf threads, "CU staff isn't doing anything" threads.
You first heard this prediction from me, 4/27/2013. Cite this for when it happens.
Im all for indy games and companies, What I am not a fan of is this kickstarter for a few reasons....
1. Give me money so I can make you a great game. No I dont have a demo of what I am going to make. But I can tell you what I hope to make....
Hearing words on game design we each get a different picture in our heads. We hear what we like and often with video games when we see the finished product its never as good as the image formed in our minds. In the end we have more people upset then happy. This has become even more of a trend with MMOs. So question is, am I investing in a product I know and trust, or is this a dream project I have created in my mind that wont fit the finished product? We gamers do this a lot. I think we need to see a lot more tech and game demos for CU then we have gotten to know what we are investing in.
2. Give me money to make you a game, invest in my idea but I am not going to pay you for your investment....
A corperation will invest in a indy company why? To make money. With kick starter we are talking about large amounts of money and real investors. Heck for CU we have people giving 10'000 - 5000 bucks sometimes... for what? No promise the game will make it. Just on the hopes it could be a good game. Not saying it wont but for the risk I say "Show me the money" If I am going to invest I want a retrun, not a few digital items and a lower sub? So I invest and I still have to pay you money? No like any customer I should pay to play but when I stop playing I should get a return on the money I invested.
3. Blind faith in their business...
Sure they have a lot of awesome game designers but what about their business. Corperations and banks dont give out money to talented people that have good ideas. They also need a good group of people who run the business. Who is their CO and CFO? What business have they built or run? Sorry I need more to invest and wont do so blindly.
The problem is if it fails it gives all the corporate people that keep ruining our games more sway to say "see, they dont want innovation".
Thats a Strawman arguement, worthless and pointless with no basis in fact in the slightest.
But it would be reasonable to think that RvR/PvP centric MMOs might not be the way to go in the future. It is a less popular genre, and WoW copies are probably more revenue generating.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
For f-sake , its not limiting voices , its keeping it in the one thread that's clearly stated CU kick starter convo here.
The hyperbole and pathetic begging had gotten ridiculous for this game.
If it fails to fund it says nothing about RvR isn't popular , it says kick start with a working alpha , or at least a website that doesn't look like something from angelfire or frontpage 2000.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by Dahkoht For f-sake , its not limiting voices , its keeping it in the one thread that's clearly stated CU kick starter convo here.
The hyperbole and pathetic begging had gotten ridiculous for this game.
If it fails to fund it says nothing about RvR isn't popular , it says kick start with a working alpha , or at least a website that doesn't look like something from angelfire or frontpage 2000.
Im a huge RvR fan and really looking forward to ESO =-) GW2 is doing a good job as a temp fill in. Wont invest in CU for the reasons I posted above even though I have been waiting for someone to do a good 3 faction PvP game sinse 2004 when DAoC stopped getting looked after and everything went into Warhammer. Good thing EA knows what they are doing lol
Why would you NOT want to see it funded? I can understand...if you don't like the idea, don't wanna play it, but why would you be against it funding?
Would you want to come to my house if i sat outside and begged for money from you every 5 seconds? made up a fake identity so i could beg you some more? Call you bad names because you dont like what i like? Go somewhere else and disrupt the norm to promote something i like without care for you? Would you want to join my household full of childish and obnoxious people?
Thats exactly why i didnt fund this game. If people are like that here, i can just imagine how they will be in game. These forums were a mess due to these people.
And its sad really, i wanted this game. i like the features, developers, and game mechanics.
Perhaos in the future these people will act a little more mature and respectable.
Comments
[mod edit]
Back to the original article (linked in OP)
If you are seriously holding that up as a reason to fund CU... well, your cause is lost.
For a start, the CU community is hardly a shining beacon of goodness. And it's already fractured.
Even before the game gets off the ground the CU 'community' is already addressing anyone who dares to stray from the 'faith' as a "troll" and tell people to move along as the game is ".... not for you LOL."
As I have said from the beginning - one of the classic mistakes MJ has made (yet again) is not to have official developer forums from day one. Some thing he could control and moderate to build the community CSE wanted.
And making factual mistakes destroys all credibility.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I don't care either way if this thing gets funded, I think in the end it won't be a success if it is released, but I'm looking forward to the end of this KS because I'm pretty annoyed seeing multiple threads daily about supporting this game. Enough already.
Hello,
I just checked out this campaign and I am not even remotely interested. Besides I wouldn´t have faith in a project which does not show some convincing alpha gameplay snippets. I don´t even see what a success of this campaign has to do with "the industry".
There already were far more successful Kickstarters out there, e.g. Star Citizen, Double Fine, Elite and lots of others showing that it can work, they already changed "the industry" and don´t need Camelot as a "me too" project.
Not every game concept on Kickstarter can be successful.
If a campaign fails, the concept / presentation failed, not some mythical "industry changing" project. Also - too little, too late.
Cheers
Doc B
There isn't that much "innovation".
There are only promises.
If they prove to yield ANYTHING, we'll see. At the end of the day even most of their ideas aren't really innovations merely refining or rehashing old mechanics.
When CU fails to KS it means NOTHING at all for the industry...it will be a faded memory for those of you that were so passionately trying to hold onto jaded memories of what you think used to be.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
The Depths...done before. DAoC.
The Veil...a sad story device in a PvP centric game that will see very little story.
Crowd-funding/sourcing etc....if you think the community has ANYTHING to say on the project then I have a project for you to invest in...I'll even let you decide what it is and how it's made, only $10,000.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
This game sure does attract it's share of drama queens. There is no way a game this hyped is ever going to live up to what people want. You've all seen what happens when the foaming at the mouth fan doesn't get exactly when "it" wants on launch day when they log in.
There's a reason some people think every game sucks and spend all their time on a forum dreaming about the greatest game ever that's going to be made....and what they turn into once yet again the game doesn't live up to their unreal expectations.
A game with such a small following filled with these people.....This game doesn't stand a chance.
I'm not trolling...the fact that you try to make your case simply by refuting what I said rather than proving your point shows how shallow your post was.
Wow...playing as NPCs...so amazing..oh right LOTR:O (need I say it? Been done)
If you're referring to the idiotic stealth mechanic as "The Veil" then...yay....again so glad this KS will fail and this idea falls to nothing. BTW...changing the name of something and just penalizing you for using it doesn't mean much. It's not innovation it's just pulling the wool over the eyes of the masses.
And...again...you miss the point. I'll try to bring it down a bit. MJ might be asking, talking, etc...but that means NOTHING until you're playing the game and actually see that your "input" has made any difference, which it won't.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Crowd Funded MMO, Crowd Sourcing for decisions in the MMO: Neither of these are particullarly innovative per se. Anything can be crowd funded.. that is sort of the whole point of crowd funding. Neither is really asking your playerbase for what they want.
The depths: Not really anything new again.. Cool yes but not new. Heck even Project Entropia had something similar (not underground.. but still) as it combined PvP zone with high end materials.
The Veil: Interesting idea.. but deffo not something new and innovatie.
Now do not get me wrong... It is ok to not be innovative.. especially when you are aiming for a very specific group of customers. In fact it is most likley for the best.
But by all means explain to me how i am worng.
This have been a good conversation
Just to further comment on "The Veil".
They could easily have called it stealth, it's just a gimmick and a change of name to get people to accept it and not associate it with the negative connotation of stealth. Simple psychology, and while that's brilliant the mechanic isn't innovative. This is just a smart marketing ploy so they can say they don't have stealth in the game.
In the end...there will be guys you cannot see.
.....................you will be ganked.
.....................they are just limiting how many can group together.
.....................there will be a class that can see "stealthers" (veilwalkers).
Again...all marketing. I take that back though....there won't be any of it and there won't be stealth in it, because it dies in 5 days.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
First time I heard MJ talk about NPCs in The Depths I thought of LotRO PvMP.
Also, Cirin isn't trolling. Right on the Kickstarter page, it says CU is supposed to be a "Counter-Revolutionary Game"
Mark has always called his online games evolutionary with a mix of revolutionary features. This one will be no different, as it will draw a lot of inspiration from “old school” games and MMORPGs while also mixing in some new features...We're not talking about spawn-camping for 24 hours straight, but rather the sense of pride from succeeding in a challenging game rather than one which hands you everything on a silver platter.
There are a few new and interesting things, but most of the game is going to an updated version of older MMOs.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
All Veil-walkers should be able to see eachother inside of the Veil. So while non-Veil-Walkers will be unable to see Veil-Walkers, there is the potential for "stealth fights" inside of the Veil between Veil-Walkers.
That's why it's a bit more like planeswalking than stealth, but it should be referred to as stealth for the sake fo simplicity.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
I'd be interested if the hype wasn't so typical. It is always like this. Remember the days before Darkfall came out? Yea, everyone was thought it was the new deal - turned out to be a wasteland within weeks. All this excitement and hype fade once people actually play the game, which will then be followed by complaint threads, griefing threads, QQ nerf threads, "CU staff isn't doing anything" threads.
You first heard this prediction from me, 4/27/2013. Cite this for when it happens.
Thats a Strawman arguement, worthless and pointless with no basis in fact in the slightest.
Im all for indy games and companies, What I am not a fan of is this kickstarter for a few reasons....
1. Give me money so I can make you a great game. No I dont have a demo of what I am going to make. But I can tell you what I hope to make....
Hearing words on game design we each get a different picture in our heads. We hear what we like and often with video games when we see the finished product its never as good as the image formed in our minds. In the end we have more people upset then happy. This has become even more of a trend with MMOs. So question is, am I investing in a product I know and trust, or is this a dream project I have created in my mind that wont fit the finished product? We gamers do this a lot. I think we need to see a lot more tech and game demos for CU then we have gotten to know what we are investing in.
2. Give me money to make you a game, invest in my idea but I am not going to pay you for your investment....
A corperation will invest in a indy company why? To make money. With kick starter we are talking about large amounts of money and real investors. Heck for CU we have people giving 10'000 - 5000 bucks sometimes... for what? No promise the game will make it. Just on the hopes it could be a good game. Not saying it wont but for the risk I say "Show me the money" If I am going to invest I want a retrun, not a few digital items and a lower sub? So I invest and I still have to pay you money? No like any customer I should pay to play but when I stop playing I should get a return on the money I invested.
3. Blind faith in their business...
Sure they have a lot of awesome game designers but what about their business. Corperations and banks dont give out money to talented people that have good ideas. They also need a good group of people who run the business. Who is their CO and CFO? What business have they built or run? Sorry I need more to invest and wont do so blindly.
But it would be reasonable to think that RvR/PvP centric MMOs might not be the way to go in the future. It is a less popular genre, and WoW copies are probably more revenue generating.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The hyperbole and pathetic begging had gotten ridiculous for this game.
If it fails to fund it says nothing about RvR isn't popular , it says kick start with a working alpha , or at least a website that doesn't look like something from angelfire or frontpage 2000.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Im a huge RvR fan and really looking forward to ESO =-) GW2 is doing a good job as a temp fill in. Wont invest in CU for the reasons I posted above even though I have been waiting for someone to do a good 3 faction PvP game sinse 2004 when DAoC stopped getting looked after and everything went into Warhammer. Good thing EA knows what they are doing lol
What is so innovative about this game, because I sure don't see it.
Meh, I feel sorrow that lives hang in the balance.
It is just a game. Arguably not even a fully fleshed out game, as it will lack PVE. Even if it was...sheesh.
This game needs a solid crafting system first. I hope it delivers.
We talking about CU or f2p games?!