I don't disagree that WOW PvP servers are just a kludge but the type of griefing I described: ganking players who have zero chance against you when they're minding their own business happens in all. Substitute "resource node" for quest hub and it makes no difference.
WHat is amazing to me is that in the games where griefing is made possible by the game's ruleset, very few developers provide real disincentives to discourage griefing. All it would take is hefty financial, experience or hostile elite NPC penalties to make the idiots behave.
It's like we want to pretend that in MMOs anarchy works when we know damn well it never works in real life. Deterents are needed in MMOs even more than in real life since as we all know, anonymous people in the safety of their own home tend to behave much worse in the digital world than they would ever have the balls to do in real life.
The next best thing to deterents if you don't know how or don't want to do it properly, is segregation...which is what we have here.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There won't be a darkness falls. Entitled pve types will whine too much.
There can't be the equivelent of relics, or if there Is they are pointless as you can just teleport to a phase where your faction owns relics. Again this wouldn't happen due to while from pveers anyway.
Its an impossible thing to do with an mmo these days unless you completely avoid all the pre launch hype and just drop it on people. If daoc launched today, beta forums would be full of whining raiders going "let me get this right, to be at my best for raiding I'm reliant on pvpers to go out and grab these relics".
Modern gamers don't want that, they come from a me generation they don't get the concept of everyone on the same side working towards the same goals, with pveers, pvpers and crafters all being cross reliant on each other.
I don't disagree that WOW PvP servers are just a kludge but the type of griefing I described: ganking players who have zero chance against you when they're minding their own business happens in all. Substitute "resource node" for quest hub and it makes no difference.
WHat is amazing to me is that in the games where griefing is made possible by the game's ruleset, very few developers provide real disincentives to discourage griefing. All it would take is hefty financial, experience or hostile elite NPC penalties to make the idiots behave.
It's like we want to pretend that in MMOs anarchy works when we know damn well it never works in real life. Deterents are needed in MMOs even more than in real life since as we all know, anonymous people in the safety of their own home tend to behave much worse in the digital world than they would ever have the balls to do in real life.
The next best thing to deterents if you don't know how or don't want to do it properly, is segregation...which is what we have here.
I think its more simple then that. Ever MMO plays the % game of who they want to cater to as to win their money. In a hardcore PvP game like Lineage 2, some jurk killing lowbies does not matter to the lowbies as they are hardcore PvPers so wont quit. Most Lineage 2 guilds had members who lived to go kill the level 30 guys picking on the level 10 chars. Kinda brings the community together. Are they jurks? Yup but its not so impacting in every game. Now with TES this would be a huge mistake as a lot TES fans wana PvE and come to a game like this for that. So a few jurks upsetting players is a bigger deal and the faction lock works well for that.
Originally posted by ShakyMo There won't be a darkness falls. Entitled pve types will whine too much.
There can't be the equivelent of relics, or if there Is they are pointless as you can just teleport to a phase where your faction owns relics. Again this wouldn't happen due to while from pveers anyway.
Its an impossible thing to do with an mmo these days unless you completely avoid all the pre launch hype and just drop it on people. If daoc launched today, beta forums would be full of whining raiders going "let me get this right, to be at my best for raiding I'm reliant on pvpers to go out and grab these relics".
Modern gamers don't want that, they come from a me generation they don't get the concept of everyone on the same side working towards the same goals, with pveers, pvpers and crafters all being cross reliant on each other.
Watched a youtube video on it last week. Press guy was given time with the game and talked about what he could. He said a dev told him about a mega dungeon being added that the factions get to fight over by who is winning the AvA war. I will see if I can find it. Guy laughed because they called it a mega-dungeon and everything in this game seems to be about mega this and that.
There is a point to ganking in a eve type game. You get access to the resource, plus anything that guy had gathered before hand.
Most players in such games are looking for a big pay off for the risk they themselves take by going out into nulsec or equivelent. No point drawing attention to yourself by killing small fry for pennies.
If course there are idiot corps that just zerg high sec and stuff. But they are a minority, and too be fair they sometimes help the game by giving everyone else someone to collectively hate.
Tell the people at blizz that, it was in fact the removal of meaningful OW PVP that cost blizz many subs. OW PvP in Vanilla WoW was some of the best OW PvP in any game.
How was zerging around tarren mill meaningful? LOL
I'll give you something though, its the closest any game has got to succesful PvPvE.
Modern gamers don't want that, they come from a me generation they don't get the concept of everyone on the same side working towards the same goals, with pveers, pvpers and crafters all being cross reliant on each other.
Call me a hopeless optimist if you want but I think modern players can learn to behave in new ways. All it would take is a developer really thinking it through and providing just the right amount of global benefit.
To use your raiding example... what if in addition to relics boosting your abilities, a succesful completion of a PvE raid had a similar global benefit? Then those raiders wouldn't just be seen as a bunch of elitist jerks--they'd be seen as skilfull players who make us all better.
That's just a simplistic example I pulled out my a.. But you get the idea.
There are many systems in MMOs that have been neglected in favour of all the whiz-bang sexy graphics and combat shit. NPC's lack of lives and sophisticated AI is one that, rumor has it, EQ Next is tackling head on. Likewise, things that encourage grouping and working together toward a common goal are still as primitive as they were in the 1990's. All they can think of is forcing us into it or giving up--both of which are dumb ideas in social games we play for fun.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Modern gamers don't want that, they come from a me generation they don't get the concept of everyone on the same side working towards the same goals, with pveers, pvpers and crafters all being cross reliant on each other.
Originally posted by ShakyMo There won't be a darkness falls. Entitled pve types will whine too much.
There can't be the equivelent of relics, or if there Is they are pointless as you can just teleport to a phase where your faction owns relics. Again this wouldn't happen due to while from pveers anyway.
Its an impossible thing to do with an mmo these days unless you completely avoid all the pre launch hype and just drop it on people. If daoc launched today, beta forums would be full of whining raiders going "let me get this right, to be at my best for raiding I'm reliant on pvpers to go out and grab these relics".
Modern gamers don't want that, they come from a me generation they don't get the concept of everyone on the same side working towards the same goals, with pveers, pvpers and crafters all being cross reliant on each other.
Still looking for the youtube video on this but found this here...
Quote:There are a large number of public dungeons within Cyrodiil as well, which will combine exciting PvE storylines with the challenge and danger of encountering hostile player opposition within. In addition, ZeniMax are working to develop a mega-dungeon, reminiscent of Darkness Falls in Dark Age of Camelot, where access to this dungeon will depend on your faction’s success in the realm war
Originally posted by stragen001 OP - In answer to your unwritten question - No, you wont be able to Gank teh Newbs
So true. About 10% of the people that want full open PvP are actually good players looking for a good fight. The rest are just bads farming the noobs.
So in your scenario the many are farming the...none? What?
Its pretty pathetic to see people believe so heartily in restricting how other people decide to play.
This is much like no smoking laws. When your freedom to smoke gets in the way of me not smoking. Sorry smoker put it out. Same with PvP. This model is designed to keep PvPers killing people who want to PvP. How is that unfair? The AvA map has all flavors of PvP, group, solo, raids, PvE (quests and dungeons) where PvP can happen at any time. If you really wana go kill low level players then your not a real PvPer and this is not the game for you.
That's a poor analogy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be nothing but open PVP in all instances, but a PVE/PvP option would be nice for those that prefer that sort of gameplay
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Originally posted by stragen001 OP - In answer to your unwritten question - No, you wont be able to Gank teh Newbs
So true. About 10% of the people that want full open PvP are actually good players looking for a good fight. The rest are just bads farming the noobs.
So in your scenario the many are farming the...none? What?
Its pretty pathetic to see people believe so heartily in restricting how other people decide to play.
What is truly pathetic is people that don't realize an MMO is not just about them and that what they do affects someone else's enjoyment.
In MMOs yeah, some people are ignorant enough with their cheats, hacks and griefing that they have to be restricted. Anyone who has ever played an open world PvP game where ganking is possible knows damn well that there are always some people camping low level quest hubs and ganking those 50 levels below them...always.
Some developers--Arenanet and Zenimax for example--know that this has always been the way so they decided to segregate PvP and PvE. If that alienates the anti social jerks who get their jollies out of griefing, so be it. They're willing to make do without their money.
That's funny you brought this up. Those clowns tried to grief me as well my first day in. Instead of raging or quitting I just swapped to first person and ignored them. (You need to get in between the camera and their character to have them "lose focus" and stop an action).
Sadly I don't believe I made their highlight reel
Also, they were all IP/CC banned from Darkfall for griefing shortly after that video was posted.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Originally posted by stragen001 OP - In answer to your unwritten question - No, you wont be able to Gank teh Newbs
So true. About 10% of the people that want full open PvP are actually good players looking for a good fight. The rest are just bads farming the noobs.
So in your scenario the many are farming the...none? What?
Its pretty pathetic to see people believe so heartily in restricting how other people decide to play.
This is much like no smoking laws. When your freedom to smoke gets in the way of me not smoking. Sorry smoker put it out. Same with PvP. This model is designed to keep PvPers killing people who want to PvP. How is that unfair? The AvA map has all flavors of PvP, group, solo, raids, PvE (quests and dungeons) where PvP can happen at any time. If you really wana go kill low level players then your not a real PvPer and this is not the game for you.
That's a poor analogy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be nothing but open PVP in all instances, but a PVE/PvP option would be nice for those that prefer that sort of gameplay
Not really, fits how ZM is taking PvP to the players. Your desire for PvE and PvP servers gives way to the broken flag system. You wana PvP then turn on your PvP flag. But its way to easy to force people to flag and ZM has made it so PvP happens on one map. Being this is based off a game where people dont PvP at all and exploring and feeling like a hero of the story is whats its about. How can you be the hero of the story when that level 50 guys just killed me in 3 seconds? So this gives pure PvEers their space to play and PvPers a place to enjoy what they do without ever the risk of trashing lowbies.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Plus some simple flagging system is just a,way of saying "got pvp" on the game box without making any actual, you know pvp content.
That's the real reason for all the flag system loving.
Originally posted by stragen001 OP - In answer to your unwritten question - No, you wont be able to Gank teh Newbs
So true. About 10% of the people that want full open PvP are actually good players looking for a good fight. The rest are just bads farming the noobs.
So in your scenario the many are farming the...none? What?
Its pretty pathetic to see people believe so heartily in restricting how other people decide to play.
This is much like no smoking laws. When your freedom to smoke gets in the way of me not smoking. Sorry smoker put it out. Same with PvP. This model is designed to keep PvPers killing people who want to PvP. How is that unfair? The AvA map has all flavors of PvP, group, solo, raids, PvE (quests and dungeons) where PvP can happen at any time. If you really wana go kill low level players then your not a real PvPer and this is not the game for you.
That's a poor analogy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be nothing but open PVP in all instances, but a PVE/PvP option would be nice for those that prefer that sort of gameplay
Not really, fits how ZM is taking PvP to the players. Your desire for PvE and PvP servers gives way to the broken flag system. You wana PvP then turn on your PvP flag. But its way to easy to force people to flag and ZM has made it so PvP happens on one map. Being this is based off a game where people dont PvP at all and exploring and feeling like a hero of the story is whats its about. How can you be the hero of the story when that level 50 guys just killed me in 3 seconds? So this gives pure PvEers their space to play and PvPers a place to enjoy what they do without ever the risk of trashing lowbies.
I didn't say anything about a flag system, just an option for open PvP in their world (as opposed to RvR, not all PVE)
I'd suggested as much in a Mordred/PvP server thread a couple weeks back, and I assure you the entire flagging thing would be the last thing on anyone's mind when it comes to fun.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Originally posted by stragen001 OP - In answer to your unwritten question - No, you wont be able to Gank teh Newbs
So true. About 10% of the people that want full open PvP are actually good players looking for a good fight. The rest are just bads farming the noobs.
So in your scenario the many are farming the...none? What?
Its pretty pathetic to see people believe so heartily in restricting how other people decide to play.
This is much like no smoking laws. When your freedom to smoke gets in the way of me not smoking. Sorry smoker put it out. Same with PvP. This model is designed to keep PvPers killing people who want to PvP. How is that unfair? The AvA map has all flavors of PvP, group, solo, raids, PvE (quests and dungeons) where PvP can happen at any time. If you really wana go kill low level players then your not a real PvPer and this is not the game for you.
That's a poor analogy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be nothing but open PVP in all instances, but a PVE/PvP option would be nice for those that prefer that sort of gameplay
Not really, fits how ZM is taking PvP to the players. Your desire for PvE and PvP servers gives way to the broken flag system. You wana PvP then turn on your PvP flag. But its way to easy to force people to flag and ZM has made it so PvP happens on one map. Being this is based off a game where people dont PvP at all and exploring and feeling like a hero of the story is whats its about. How can you be the hero of the story when that level 50 guys just killed me in 3 seconds? So this gives pure PvEers their space to play and PvPers a place to enjoy what they do without ever the risk of trashing lowbies.
I didn't say anything about a flag system, just an option for open PvP in their world (as opposed to RvR, not all PVE)
I'd suggested as much in a Mordred/PvP server thread a couple weeks back, and I assure you the entire flagging thing would be the last thing on anyone's mind when it comes to fun.
Not sure how you could make that work with the 3 faction maps and the 3 factions not playing together. Also a big part of the current system is all PvP takes place on the AvA map and that means you get more large scale battles. Having PvP everywhere would water down that model. Works well in games thats designed for but I hope they dont add anything like that here. There are some cool games coming out that have PvP servers. Wildstar and AA for two. If you like sandbox MMOs I would say AA fits more what you seem to be looking for.
That's funny you brought this up. Those clowns tried to grief me as well my first day in. Instead of raging or quitting I just swapped to first person and ignored them. (You need to get in between the camera and their character to have them "lose focus" and stop an action).
Sadly I don't believe I made their highlight reel
Also, they were all IP/CC banned from Darkfall for griefing shortly after that video was posted.
Yeah I actually gained some repect for Aventurine after the bann.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by stragen001 OP - In answer to your unwritten question - No, you wont be able to Gank teh Newbs
So true. About 10% of the people that want full open PvP are actually good players looking for a good fight. The rest are just bads farming the noobs.
So in your scenario the many are farming the...none? What?
Its pretty pathetic to see people believe so heartily in restricting how other people decide to play.
This is much like no smoking laws. When your freedom to smoke gets in the way of me not smoking. Sorry smoker put it out. Same with PvP. This model is designed to keep PvPers killing people who want to PvP. How is that unfair? The AvA map has all flavors of PvP, group, solo, raids, PvE (quests and dungeons) where PvP can happen at any time. If you really wana go kill low level players then your not a real PvPer and this is not the game for you.
That's a poor analogy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be nothing but open PVP in all instances, but a PVE/PvP option would be nice for those that prefer that sort of gameplay
Not really, fits how ZM is taking PvP to the players. Your desire for PvE and PvP servers gives way to the broken flag system. You wana PvP then turn on your PvP flag. But its way to easy to force people to flag and ZM has made it so PvP happens on one map. Being this is based off a game where people dont PvP at all and exploring and feeling like a hero of the story is whats its about. How can you be the hero of the story when that level 50 guys just killed me in 3 seconds? So this gives pure PvEers their space to play and PvPers a place to enjoy what they do without ever the risk of trashing lowbies.
I didn't say anything about a flag system, just an option for open PvP in their world (as opposed to RvR, not all PVE)
I'd suggested as much in a Mordred/PvP server thread a couple weeks back, and I assure you the entire flagging thing would be the last thing on anyone's mind when it comes to fun.
Not sure how you could make that work with the 3 faction maps and the 3 factions not playing together. Also a big part of the current system is all PvP takes place on the AvA map and that means you get more large scale battles. Having PvP everywhere would water down that model. Works well in games thats designed for but I hope they dont add anything like that here. There are some cool games coming out that have PvP servers. Wildstar and AA for two. If you like sandbox MMOs I would say AA fits more what you seem to be looking for.
Yeah.
I don't like/want that model. Hence the Mordred PvP reference (which worked great in a similar game and RvR model btw)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
That's funny you brought this up. Those clowns tried to grief me as well my first day in. Instead of raging or quitting I just swapped to first person and ignored them. (You need to get in between the camera and their character to have them "lose focus" and stop an action).
Sadly I don't believe I made their highlight reel
Also, they were all IP/CC banned from Darkfall for griefing shortly after that video was posted.
Yeah I actually gained some repect for Aventurine after the bann.
There is no 'risk vs reward' neither 'Territorial Control Warfare' so there is nothing to justify OWPVP in TESO,implementing it would be idiocy thats because there is only RvR.
No risk vs reward in Territorial control warfare, especially siege warfare? A second ago you just mentioned Shadowbane, you should know. The most meaningful moment you can have in an MMORPG is the moment when your city is under attack, and that same city you have spent too many months working on with your guild. You have defended it for the past year few times per month. You're confident, nothing new, been there done this. And you lost, you lost the fucking city you had dedicated so many hours upon, the same city you had woken up to defend at 4 a.m is now gone. Enemy banners now decorate its walls.
Shit, that isn't risk? Or reward for the attackers (sieging wasn't cheap)?
There is no 'risk vs reward' neither 'Territorial Control Warfare' so there is nothing to justify OWPVP in TESO,implementing it would be idiocy thats because there is only RvR.
No risk vs reward in Territorial control warfare, especially siege warfare? A second ago you just mentioned Shadowbane, you should know. The most meaningful moment you can have in an MMORPG is the moment when your city is under attack, and that same city you have spent too many months working on with your guild. You have defended it for the past year few times per month. You're confident, nothing new, been there done this. And you lost, you lost the fucking city you had dedicated so many hours upon, the same city you had woken up to defend at 4 a.m is now gone. Enemy banners now decorate its walls.
Shit, that isn't risk? Or reward for the attackers (sieging wasn't cheap)?
You must be an old fart (like me) if you think of risk and reward in a global social context. When a lot of people throw those termas around these days, they're usually speaking about risk and rewards that affect them specifically... loot, resources, gold is what they're talking about.
What you describe above also applied to DAoC even though it was structured just like this game with separate PvE areas for each side and large RvR areas with keeps to conquer and defend.
Flipping regular keep ownership was not trivial like it was in Warhammer Online, but it did happen usually on a daily basis. Conquering the Relic Keep (2 per side - one for magic boosts and one for melee) and taking the relic back to your home area on the other hand, were rare events and quite difficult to execute properly. We also got up at 4 AM sometimes to either prevent ours from being taken or taking theirs.
Group risk and group rewards was also what DAoC was all about.
But back to 2013... everything designed these days is essentially solo-centric and all about stroking individual egos. What these guys are attempting to do with ESO is that they're taking a risk that the 2013 crowd can be "re-educated" to care more about the faction they are part of.
But if you look at most (not all, but a huge majority) of the complaints in this forum, they are all about how they need to cater to me and mine my style and my rewards... the sense of self-entitlement with MMO players in 2013 is just amazing...
Any intelligent and reasonable objective look at the whole of ESO has to come to the conclusion that they are designing end-game around RvR. They are trying to build a community around that. But at the same time they are being realistic about 2013 and the current MMO player base... this is why they chose the separate PvE-only area design... just like GW2 did last year. There's lot of non-PvP stuff to get involved in here--that's neither accidental nor dumb. It's there to give the PvE content consumers several months of enjoyment...and by that time, they hope, the PvE crowd will realize that RvR is a lot of fun, give it a try, enjoy it, and become new RvR fans who stick around.
But if you're the type of player who already loves large scale tactical PvP you're who they're making this game for. No need to go anywhere other than Cyrodiil after level 10. So... why be greedy and say "There must be PvP everywhere or I'm going home in a snit?" That is just selfish, idiotic and bound to doom this game to a tiny niche corner of the MMO market--just like DF UW--where only those who like individual ganking AND large scale PvP will play. No new "converts" possible in that scenario.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by ShakyMo Wow never had "meaningful open world pvp"
Yea WoW did have meaningful Open World PVP when PVP servers were balanced. Before they removed the rule saying that you cannot have a greater than 59% to 41% faction inbalance on PVP servers, PVP was enjoyable because you didnt have 5000 horde to 100 alliance on 1 server.
Comments
I don't disagree that WOW PvP servers are just a kludge but the type of griefing I described: ganking players who have zero chance against you when they're minding their own business happens in all. Substitute "resource node" for quest hub and it makes no difference.
WHat is amazing to me is that in the games where griefing is made possible by the game's ruleset, very few developers provide real disincentives to discourage griefing. All it would take is hefty financial, experience or hostile elite NPC penalties to make the idiots behave.
It's like we want to pretend that in MMOs anarchy works when we know damn well it never works in real life. Deterents are needed in MMOs even more than in real life since as we all know, anonymous people in the safety of their own home tend to behave much worse in the digital world than they would ever have the balls to do in real life.
The next best thing to deterents if you don't know how or don't want to do it properly, is segregation...which is what we have here.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There can't be the equivelent of relics, or if there Is they are pointless as you can just teleport to a phase where your faction owns relics. Again this wouldn't happen due to while from pveers anyway.
Its an impossible thing to do with an mmo these days unless you completely avoid all the pre launch hype and just drop it on people. If daoc launched today, beta forums would be full of whining raiders going "let me get this right, to be at my best for raiding I'm reliant on pvpers to go out and grab these relics".
Modern gamers don't want that, they come from a me generation they don't get the concept of everyone on the same side working towards the same goals, with pveers, pvpers and crafters all being cross reliant on each other.
I think its more simple then that. Ever MMO plays the % game of who they want to cater to as to win their money. In a hardcore PvP game like Lineage 2, some jurk killing lowbies does not matter to the lowbies as they are hardcore PvPers so wont quit. Most Lineage 2 guilds had members who lived to go kill the level 30 guys picking on the level 10 chars. Kinda brings the community together. Are they jurks? Yup but its not so impacting in every game. Now with TES this would be a huge mistake as a lot TES fans wana PvE and come to a game like this for that. So a few jurks upsetting players is a bigger deal and the faction lock works well for that.
Watched a youtube video on it last week. Press guy was given time with the game and talked about what he could. He said a dev told him about a mega dungeon being added that the factions get to fight over by who is winning the AvA war. I will see if I can find it. Guy laughed because they called it a mega-dungeon and everything in this game seems to be about mega this and that.
You said it resource nodes.
There is a point to ganking in a eve type game. You get access to the resource, plus anything that guy had gathered before hand.
Most players in such games are looking for a big pay off for the risk they themselves take by going out into nulsec or equivelent. No point drawing attention to yourself by killing small fry for pennies.
If course there are idiot corps that just zerg high sec and stuff. But they are a minority, and too be fair they sometimes help the game by giving everyone else someone to collectively hate.
No doubt there will be bonuses and stuff from ava
But it will be like gw2, the bonuses will effect pvp only, because
1 pveers will whine
2 you can hop shards anyway
Likewise there won't be exclusive crafting stuff in ava either, there will be a pve route to the same resource.
And likewise pvpers won't be reliant on.pveers for resources like from dragon raids.
It's the way modern mmos work, every little group in their own little island.
It's the wow legacy.
How was zerging around tarren mill meaningful? LOL
I'll give you something though, its the closest any game has got to succesful PvPvE.
Call me a hopeless optimist if you want but I think modern players can learn to behave in new ways. All it would take is a developer really thinking it through and providing just the right amount of global benefit.
To use your raiding example... what if in addition to relics boosting your abilities, a succesful completion of a PvE raid had a similar global benefit? Then those raiders wouldn't just be seen as a bunch of elitist jerks--they'd be seen as skilfull players who make us all better.
That's just a simplistic example I pulled out my a.. But you get the idea.
There are many systems in MMOs that have been neglected in favour of all the whiz-bang sexy graphics and combat shit. NPC's lack of lives and sophisticated AI is one that, rumor has it, EQ Next is tackling head on. Likewise, things that encourage grouping and working together toward a common goal are still as primitive as they were in the 1990's. All they can think of is forcing us into it or giving up--both of which are dumb ideas in social games we play for fun.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Whats there ti whine about when everyone from your conflict has them, even if you didnt take part in the battle?
You sir, are a hopeless optimist!
Still looking for the youtube video on this but found this here...
Quote:There are a large number of public dungeons within Cyrodiil as well, which will combine exciting PvE storylines with the challenge and danger of encountering hostile player opposition within. In addition, ZeniMax are working to develop a mega-dungeon, reminiscent of Darkness Falls in Dark Age of Camelot, where access to this dungeon will depend on your faction’s success in the realm war
That's a poor analogy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be nothing but open PVP in all instances, but a PVE/PvP option would be nice for those that prefer that sort of gameplay
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
That's funny you brought this up. Those clowns tried to grief me as well my first day in. Instead of raging or quitting I just swapped to first person and ignored them. (You need to get in between the camera and their character to have them "lose focus" and stop an action).
Sadly I don't believe I made their highlight reel
Also, they were all IP/CC banned from Darkfall for griefing shortly after that video was posted.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Not really, fits how ZM is taking PvP to the players. Your desire for PvE and PvP servers gives way to the broken flag system. You wana PvP then turn on your PvP flag. But its way to easy to force people to flag and ZM has made it so PvP happens on one map. Being this is based off a game where people dont PvP at all and exploring and feeling like a hero of the story is whats its about. How can you be the hero of the story when that level 50 guys just killed me in 3 seconds? So this gives pure PvEers their space to play and PvPers a place to enjoy what they do without ever the risk of trashing lowbies.
That's the real reason for all the flag system loving.
More time free to make raids and other shit.
Ya... no shit here!!! lol
I didn't say anything about a flag system, just an option for open PvP in their world (as opposed to RvR, not all PVE)
I'd suggested as much in a Mordred/PvP server thread a couple weeks back, and I assure you the entire flagging thing would be the last thing on anyone's mind when it comes to fun.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Not sure how you could make that work with the 3 faction maps and the 3 factions not playing together. Also a big part of the current system is all PvP takes place on the AvA map and that means you get more large scale battles. Having PvP everywhere would water down that model. Works well in games thats designed for but I hope they dont add anything like that here. There are some cool games coming out that have PvP servers. Wildstar and AA for two. If you like sandbox MMOs I would say AA fits more what you seem to be looking for.
Yeah I actually gained some repect for Aventurine after the bann.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yeah.
I don't like/want that model. Hence the Mordred PvP reference (which worked great in a similar game and RvR model btw)
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
http://www.unholybanhammer.com/BH/
They also changed policy regarding keeping those bans private
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
No risk vs reward in Territorial control warfare, especially siege warfare? A second ago you just mentioned Shadowbane, you should know. The most meaningful moment you can have in an MMORPG is the moment when your city is under attack, and that same city you have spent too many months working on with your guild. You have defended it for the past year few times per month. You're confident, nothing new, been there done this. And you lost, you lost the fucking city you had dedicated so many hours upon, the same city you had woken up to defend at 4 a.m is now gone. Enemy banners now decorate its walls.
Shit, that isn't risk? Or reward for the attackers (sieging wasn't cheap)?
You must be an old fart (like me) if you think of risk and reward in a global social context. When a lot of people throw those termas around these days, they're usually speaking about risk and rewards that affect them specifically... loot, resources, gold is what they're talking about.
What you describe above also applied to DAoC even though it was structured just like this game with separate PvE areas for each side and large RvR areas with keeps to conquer and defend.
Flipping regular keep ownership was not trivial like it was in Warhammer Online, but it did happen usually on a daily basis. Conquering the Relic Keep (2 per side - one for magic boosts and one for melee) and taking the relic back to your home area on the other hand, were rare events and quite difficult to execute properly. We also got up at 4 AM sometimes to either prevent ours from being taken or taking theirs.
Group risk and group rewards was also what DAoC was all about.
But back to 2013... everything designed these days is essentially solo-centric and all about stroking individual egos. What these guys are attempting to do with ESO is that they're taking a risk that the 2013 crowd can be "re-educated" to care more about the faction they are part of.
But if you look at most (not all, but a huge majority) of the complaints in this forum, they are all about how they need to cater to me and mine my style and my rewards... the sense of self-entitlement with MMO players in 2013 is just amazing...
Any intelligent and reasonable objective look at the whole of ESO has to come to the conclusion that they are designing end-game around RvR. They are trying to build a community around that. But at the same time they are being realistic about 2013 and the current MMO player base... this is why they chose the separate PvE-only area design... just like GW2 did last year. There's lot of non-PvP stuff to get involved in here--that's neither accidental nor dumb. It's there to give the PvE content consumers several months of enjoyment...and by that time, they hope, the PvE crowd will realize that RvR is a lot of fun, give it a try, enjoy it, and become new RvR fans who stick around.
But if you're the type of player who already loves large scale tactical PvP you're who they're making this game for. No need to go anywhere other than Cyrodiil after level 10. So... why be greedy and say "There must be PvP everywhere or I'm going home in a snit?" That is just selfish, idiotic and bound to doom this game to a tiny niche corner of the MMO market--just like DF UW--where only those who like individual ganking AND large scale PvP will play. No new "converts" possible in that scenario.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yea WoW did have meaningful Open World PVP when PVP servers were balanced. Before they removed the rule saying that you cannot have a greater than 59% to 41% faction inbalance on PVP servers, PVP was enjoyable because you didnt have 5000 horde to 100 alliance on 1 server.