There are very few honest F2P games left, very very few.
There is hardly a need for division for me since I consider almost every F2P game Pay 2 Win.
(the only exception I played was Street Gears, great game but it got shut down sadly)
We started out with calling every game that had more than cosmetics Pay 2 Win, that was the line in the sand. The line was easy to spot, every game that offers power is Pay 2 Win, it allows you to win a battle that was unwinnable before.
Now some people have started to move this line and are affraid to call games pay 2 win.
GW2, Planetside, Neverwinter, Tera. All of these games are Pay 2 Win games. They do no longer just sell cosmetics, they're selling power.
Game companies saw that people are not just willing to spend money in F2P, they are willing to spend WAY more than a P2P player, and they're taking full advantage of this, regarless of the effect on game balance or feelings of players.
Even regular people who aren't rich, are starting to spend big on F2P games, $10 there, $30 there, $20 there, and before they know it they spent $100 in a month, it's no longer just the whales, many people are spending a lot of cash in F2P games.
They want to get the shiny armor, the new weapon, some extra bag space, a bit faster XP, a nice looking mount to show friends, they get addicted, and without realising it they're on a spending spree, throwing away money left and right on virtual items.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the average player in a F2P game, not just the whales, spends way more than a P2P player does.
Yeah, but there are other things that you lose out on. For instance, other people to play with. Often times there will be no one available at your level to accomplish the content with if you don't buy an expansion. That's a huge disadvantage to not buying an expansion.
Also, any future content that is made for the game while you pay your sub you will be unable to experience. That seems like a pretty huge problem.
Now I'm going to bury you but...if everyone else bought it but you, why aren't you buying it ?
either you're wrong and the players who don't buy it are sufficient to play with each other or everyone else but you bought it making YOU the abnormality. And at this point judging the business model based on one customer becomes silly.
I know what you're saying, the problem does exist. But the problem is not relevant to this topic.
I'm not really sure why you would think that was "burying me." You aren't even replying to what you quoted and you admit the problem exists. And it is very relevant to the topic.
If a game comes out with an expansion (WoW for instance), all future content updates will be for players that own the expansion. At that point you are paying $15 a month for access to the game, but very little to none of the updates. That seems pretty straight forward to me and it seems like it would be an important issue to consider.
In response to the second half of your post, there are more than a few F2P MMORPGs that allow you to use in game currency to purchase store items. LotRO, DDO, TERA, GW2, NWO, PS2 are a few. And in all of them, a 20-30 hour grind like you suggest as being ok in LoL will get you quite a lot in the store.
There are very few honest F2P games left, very very few.
There is hardly a need for division for me since I consider almost every F2P game Pay 2 Win.
(the only exception I played was Street Gears, great game but it got shut down sadly)
We started out with calling every game that had more than cosmetics Pay 2 Win, that was the line in the sand. The line was easy to spot, every game that offers power is Pay 2 Win, it allows you to win a battle that was unwinnable before.
Now some people have started to move this line and are affraid to call games pay 2 win.
GW2, Planetside, Neverwinter, Tera. All of these games are Pay 2 Win games. They do no longer just sell cosmetics, they're selling power.
Game companies saw that people are not just willing to spend money in F2P, they are willing to spend WAY more than a P2P player, and they're taking full advantage of this, regarless of the effect on game balance or feelings of players.
Even regular people who aren't rich, are starting to spend big on F2P games, $10 there, $30 there, $20 there, and before they know it they spent $100 in a month, it's no longer just the whales, many people are spending a lot of cash in F2P games.
They want to get the shiny armor, the new weapon, some extra bag space, a bit faster XP, a nice looking mount to show friends, they get addicted, and without realising it they're on a spending spree, throwing away money left and right on virtual items.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the average player in a F2P game, not just the whales, spends way more than a P2P player does.
It doesn't matter what would surprise you. What you wrote here is just incorrect. F2P games need far more people to make the same amount of money as P2P games. This means that the average that a player spends is much smaller in F2P games.
All of your evidence is not even anecdotal. You are now expressing what imaginary "average" people do in your own head when playing F2P games. How can someone have a conversation with a person that is just simply making shit up.
people should really come up with new terminologies to divide F2P games further. its almost illogical that games like LoL or PoE are put in the same group as games like Neverwinter and the rest of PWE games, or Aeria games, and the likes
It isn't the business model that differentiates those publishers (games), but how they are being managed. There is nothing in their design that is stopping POE or LOL from adding items that give cash shop users a larger advantage over free loaders.
It is impossible to divide games beyond cash shop and no cash shop. Dividing cash shop games any further would be based on the purely subjective critieria of how " fair " or unbalancing the cash shop effects the game.
Just to give you an example, I still consider PoE a P2W game, but I do recognize that it is much fair than most and quite fun to play.
Originally posted by Quizzical I prefer to know a game's business model up front before deciding whether to play it. When a company advertises a game as "free to play", they're trying to hide the business model, as they're never going to truly give away everything for free. Do you think "free to play" will eventually become a derogatory term that marketers avoid for that reason?
depends on the game/company. Try playing AION F2P and dont tell me anything is hidden behind the F2P firewall that impedes your play and enjoyment of the game.
I think that early on F2P is about what "extras" you can buy to make the introduction period more interesting. This is similar to preorder bonuses and whatnot from P2P series. So no real difference there.
Problem is the as the game matures and revenues naturally declines F2P series seemingly fall prey to Pay2Win tactics to drum up easy money. P2P has to continually add content to the game to keep their customers interested. I believe the later to be the much more healthy mechanic in the long term.
Problem is the as the game matures and revenues naturally declines F2P series seemingly fall prey to Pay2Win tactics to drum up easy money. P2P has to continually add content to the game to keep their customers interested. I believe the later to be the much more healthy mechanic in the long term.
Then play a series of games for short term. F2P is better for short term.
In response to the second half of your post, there are more than a few F2P MMORPGs that allow you to use in game currency to purchase store items. LotRO, DDO, TERA, GW2, NWO, PS2 are a few. And in all of them, a 20-30 hour grind like you suggest as being ok in LoL will get you quite a lot in the store.
small note here is that LoL being a MOBA, there is no grind, it's just playing the game.
by the 'bury' comment I meant that I'm about to mak an argument that completely questions the relevance of the one you made rather than try to counter it.
personally I hate the "so what" arguments but in that case I felt it is relevant.
besides how many wow players - myself included would KILL for a vanilla-only or BC-only realm? updates don't always improve. sometimes they take away. because in WOW unlike EVE, an expansion literarly means "instead of doing endgame here, now you do it over there".
I have a personal problem with the word 'expansion' when i doesn't add but rather it replaces. That's a whole different topic but I see an expansion as "instead of doing tiers 1 2 and 3 now we do tiers 1 2 3 4 5 and 6". but wow provides "now you do 1 2 3 , after expansion you do 4 5 6". well we havent expanded. we still have 3 tiers. we have replaces them but we havent EXPANDED them.
In my opinion, there is a hell of a grind to get to 30 in LoL. There is a hell of a grind if you want to play as a certain hero that cost 6400 or whatever it is and don't want to pay money to play that hero. Being a MOBA does not somehow magically exclude grinding for things you want in the cash shop. I mean, in MMORPGs you are always playing the game to get more gold or whatever. How is always playing a MOBA any different?
You never made an argument counter to what I was saying by the way. That was why I was confused about why you even said that. You simply stated that you were going to "bury me" and then said something completely unrelated to what you quoted.
Another thing that you are talking about that is completely unrelated is this idea that you would like to play vanilla WoW again. What does that have to do with anything? No one was discussing whether or not updates improve anything. It's only that updates in the future will never be made for you and you will still have to pay to play anyway. It's not about your personal preference for an earlier version, it's about people feeling like they are getting value for their money.
Who would pay $15/month for a game that never updates? Probably very, very few.
I think you are misinterpreting who is appearing desperate. As P2P titles decline and F2P titles flourish, the supporters of P2P are feeling left out in the cold. It makes sense to me why some people prefer P2P over F2P, but looking at the market right now, if that is your preferred payment method for MMORPGs, its probably about time to start feeling desperate.
The quality of most F2P is horrendous. I don't feel in any way slightest because I can't play an F2P Casino game where people are nickel and dimed and some poor kid is paying $1000 a month just to be able to enjoy a game.
I think you are misinterpreting who is appearing desperate. As P2P titles decline and F2P titles flourish, the supporters of P2P are feeling left out in the cold. It makes sense to me why some people prefer P2P over F2P, but looking at the market right now, if that is your preferred payment method for MMORPGs, its probably about time to start feeling desperate.
Wow .. we are talking about games here, not necessities of life.
No one should feel desperate. They should go do something else, like read a book, or watch a movie, if the current MMOs are not for them.
I think you are misinterpreting who is appearing desperate. As P2P titles decline and F2P titles flourish, the supporters of P2P are feeling left out in the cold. It makes sense to me why some people prefer P2P over F2P, but looking at the market right now, if that is your preferred payment method for MMORPGs, its probably about time to start feeling desperate.
The quality of most F2P is horrendous. I don't feel in any way slightest because I can't play an F2P Casino game where people are nickel and dimed and some poor kid is paying $1000 a month just to be able to enjoy a game.
If that's your future you can keep it.
Horrendous to you .. fun for many (otherwise why would F2P players outnumber P2P ones 6 to 1?)
Yes, i will keep it. I am enjoying myself. So what will you do now? Play SP games? Read a book? May be time to watch all the episodes of I love Lucy? Inquiring minds want to know.
I think you are misinterpreting who is appearing desperate. As P2P titles decline and F2P titles flourish, the supporters of P2P are feeling left out in the cold. It makes sense to me why some people prefer P2P over F2P, but looking at the market right now, if that is your preferred payment method for MMORPGs, its probably about time to start feeling desperate.
Wow .. we are talking about games here, not necessities of life.
No one should feel desperate. They should go do something else, like read a book, or watch a movie, if the current MMOs are not for them.
I agree. I think they should either adapt, move on or play a sub game. But if they prefer to play new MMORPGs over the things you listed, it really is getting desperate for the people that can't stand any model with a cash shop at all.
We're going to have to lock this discussion if the insults keep flying around. If you cannot discuss this topic without insulting other users in the process, please refrain from posting. Thanks!
I think you are misinterpreting who is appearing desperate. As P2P titles decline and F2P titles flourish, the supporters of P2P are feeling left out in the cold. It makes sense to me why some people prefer P2P over F2P, but looking at the market right now, if that is your preferred payment method for MMORPGs, its probably about time to start feeling desperate.
The quality of most F2P is horrendous. I don't feel in any way slightest because I can't play an F2P Casino game where people are nickel and dimed and some poor kid is paying $1000 a month just to be able to enjoy a game.
If that's your future you can keep it.
I think there are some really great F2P/B2P games. Also, like I've stated before, I don't pay anywhere close to how much I pay in sub games as I do in F2P games and I've learned to really like that about them.
But you can keep using hyperbole and act like the world is black and white as much as you want. I already know you are resistant to understanding things even when they are explained to you because you still don't know what anecdotal evidence is. Why would anyone try and discuss with you the subtleties of the black and white world you live in when your attitude just shuts every other opinion out completely?
Who would pay $15/month for a game that never updates? Probably very, very few.
I'll adrsss only this part...
if this month $15 is a good idea...so is next month. unless you've beaten it.
I'm one of the 2% of wow players who were 6/6 sunwell before 3.0 and my quest for a good priavate server to still play BC on has been ongoing for years.
the rest of 98% who never finished BC...coul've still be playing BC for many years without 'finishing it'.
WoW actually decided to accelerae content releases which I think is a big mistake. most players are not anywhere near capable to keep up with the speed, making them skip big chunks of content.
No, that's not how it works. People would not be willing to play vanilla WoW for 8 years with no updates for $15/month. I don't know why you think that would have been possible for any game to get away with, especially with the kind of competition that is out there right now, but that is a recipe for disaster.
No, that's not how it works. People would not be willing to play vanilla WoW for 8 years with no updates for $15/month. I don't know why you think that would have been possible for any game to get away with, especially with the kind of competition that is out there right now, but that is a recipe for disaster.
That is the key word. It is all about competition.
I just took my kids out to see Iron Man 3 on Imax 3D yesterday. It costs $43 (just the tickets including service charget buying them online). Why was i willing to pay $43 .. because there is no substititute .. i wanted to see IM3. I wanted IMAX 3D .. best experience. The key is that i can't find a similar experience for less money.
Now for MMOs ... i can play a lot of MMOs for free .. and they are as much fun as a p2p one like WOW. Now tell me, why would i want to pay even a cent for WOW?
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the average player in a F2P game, not just the whales, spends way more than a P2P player does.
It doesn't matter what would surprise you. What you wrote here is just incorrect. F2P games need far more people to make the same amount of money as P2P games. This means that the average that a player spends is much smaller in F2P games.
All of your evidence is not even anecdotal. You are now expressing what imaginary "average" people do in your own head when playing F2P games. How can someone have a conversation with a person that is just simply making shit up.
I thought the same thing when I read CalmOceans' post, and was going to respond to them directly, but it seems you noticed the same error in judgment. They didn't even attempt to provide statistics or even anecdotal evidence, just some airy daydream. I mean, sure, I can imagine that everyone likes playing the same games I do, that pigs can fly, and politicians aren't corrupt - doesn't make it true.
I want to see proof of this supposed "average", not biased conclusions based on nothing.
Then again, the quote came from the same person who called GW2 Pay2Win. And we all know that's not true.
Who would pay $15/month for a game that never updates? Probably very, very few.
I'll adrsss only this part...
if this month $15 is a good idea...so is next month. unless you've beaten it.
I'm one of the 2% of wow players who were 6/6 sunwell before 3.0 and my quest for a good priavate server to still play BC on has been ongoing for years.
the rest of 98% who never finished BC...coul've still be playing BC for many years without 'finishing it'.
WoW actually decided to accelerae content releases which I think is a big mistake. most players are not anywhere near capable to keep up with the speed, making them skip big chunks of content.
No, that's not how it works. People would not be willing to play vanilla WoW for 8 years with no updates for $15/month. I don't know why you think that would have been possible for any game to get away with, especially with the kind of competition that is out there right now, but that is a recipe for disaster.
I was thinking more to sandboxes, as themeparks are very dependent on content injections. I quoted wow because even there a few years (not 8 years) it would be possible.
I mean when did eve last add new content ? I believe W-Space was the last 'new content' added. or sansha incursions depending on what you count as 'content'. but assuming both count, how long was it in between them? (looking it up...)
Introduced in the Apocrypha expansion, Wormhole Space consists of 2499 solar systems in unknown regions...
Apocrypha. Release date: March 10, 2009
Incursion. Release Date: November 30, 2010.
only 1.5 years. still not wow's pace but indeed quicker than 8 years. now granted most nullsec pilots don't deal with either more than a handful of times per year so in a sense their gameplay remains unaffected but yeah. 1.5 years.
this response is primarily to "
Who would pay $15/month for a game that never updates? Probably very, very few.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the average player in a F2P game, not just the whales, spends way more than a P2P player does.
It doesn't matter what would surprise you. What you wrote here is just incorrect. F2P games need far more people to make the same amount of money as P2P games. This means that the average that a player spends is much smaller in F2P games.
All of your evidence is not even anecdotal. You are now expressing what imaginary "average" people do in your own head when playing F2P games. How can someone have a conversation with a person that is just simply making shit up.
I thought the same thing when I read CalmOceans' post, and was going to respond to them directly, but it seems you noticed the same error in judgment. They didn't even attempt to provide statistics or even anecdotal evidence, just some airy daydream. I mean, sure, I can imagine that everyone likes playing the same games I do, that pigs can fly, and politicians aren't corrupt - doesn't make it true.
I want to see proof of this supposed "average", not biased conclusions based on nothing.
Then again, the quote came from the same person who called GW2 Pay2Win. And we all know that's not true.
I think he is doing it on purpose. I wonder if he believes his own fantasy.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the average player in a F2P game, not just the whales, spends way more than a P2P player does.
It doesn't matter what would surprise you. What you wrote here is just incorrect. F2P games need far more people to make the same amount of money as P2P games. This means that the average that a player spends is much smaller in F2P games.
All of your evidence is not even anecdotal. You are now expressing what imaginary "average" people do in your own head when playing F2P games. How can someone have a conversation with a person that is just simply making shit up.
I thought the same thing when I read CalmOceans' post, and was going to respond to them directly, but it seems you noticed the same error in judgment. They didn't even attempt to provide statistics or even anecdotal evidence, just some airy daydream. I mean, sure, I can imagine that everyone likes playing the same games I do, that pigs can fly, and politicians aren't corrupt - doesn't make it true.
I want to see proof of this supposed "average", not biased conclusions based on nothing.
Then again, the quote came from the same person who called GW2 Pay2Win. And we all know that's not true.
I think he is doing it on purpose. I wonder if he believes his own fantasy.
What the situation is now, what the figures are now is somewhat irrelevant. We are going through a period of changing financial models. So called F2P was held back by Subscription being the norm, that is no longer the case.
What F2P games think they can charge is now wide open. It does not take a genius to realise that those guys who pay nothing are a potential gold mine. Already the F2P financial model 'encourages' players who don't pay to put some money down. Those design screws will be tightened to ensure more players who once played for nothing cough up.
We now have Subs in so called F2P games. Old style subscription and F2P are going to become a thing of the past. If you can’t see that writing on the wall, I am not sure I can spell it out much more clearly for you.
As for evidence that F2P can end up costing more than a subscription, we have had countless threads and posts on here from players who have had their fingers burnt. Those posters replying here who seem to have forgotten that have rather convenient memories. With multiple ways to pay I predict that will continue even if players are not getting their fingers burnt in the same way they did under the old F2P model.
What the situation is now, what the figures are now is somewhat irrelevant. We are going through a period of changing financial models. So called F2P was held back by Subscription being the norm, that is no longer the case.
That does not excuse making up facts.
A period of changing financial models? I think they are more or less changed. Plus, one side of the market taking share from another is always relevant.
My point is they are still changing, you seem to think everything is going to F2P and it stops there. How on earth does anyone call a F2P game that has a subscription "F2P"? Hybrid revenue models are taking over and evolving as they do so.
Market share would be more relevent if the subscription and F2P models were fixed, they are not. I am not saying it does not show a shift, but when WoW has a cash shop and F2P MMO's have a subscription, the comparison is becoming somewhat meaningless. I think inside a couple of years it will be meaningless, what defines a subscription and F2P is changing so much that the definition is already blured.
The differance between the two models at its core is you must subscribe or you do not need to. I am not sure if that will even hold true in a couple of years, I think the definiton of "you do not need to" is changing as we speak.
My point is they are still changing, you seem to think everything is going to F2P and it stops there. How on earth does anyone call a F2P game that has a subscription "F2P"? Hybrid revenue models are taking over and evolving as they do so.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never say anything about stopping.
Markets always change. In fact, i pointed out that F2P is GROWING several times. Growing is not "stopping", is it?
Are you disagree with the fact that F2P is growing? Now no one knows what happens in another 5 years. I don't expect the market to stay the same then .. but that does not invalidate of what is happening now.
And your second point is just semantic. I have no objective if you want to restate the fact as "F2P-hybrid games are growing and gaining share against P2P-only games". Do you deny P2P-only games are in the decline?
My point is they are still changing, you seem to think everything is going to F2P and it stops there. How on earth does anyone call a F2P game that has a subscription "F2P"? Hybrid revenue models are taking over and evolving as they do so.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never say anything about stopping.
Markets always change. In fact, i pointed out that F2P is GROWING several times. Growing is not "stopping", is it?
Are you disagree with the fact that F2P is growing? Now no one knows what happens in another 5 years. I don't expect the market to stay the same then .. but that does not invalidate of what is happening now.
And your second point is just semantic. I have no objective if you want to restate the fact as "F2P-hybrid games are growing and gaining share against P2P-only games". Do you deny P2P-only games are in the decline?
We seem to be having separate discussions. You are having one we had years ago, about what share P2P and F2P have of the market.
I am trying to answer the OP’s question: Free to play "really just means "we're not going to tell you how much we intend to make you pay or how you'll be crippled if you don't."
The two gaming models have moved on from a couple of years ago. Every new subscription game will have a cash shop. Every new F2P game will have a subscription. This will lead to players in both models being ignorant of how much they will need to pay.
This also means your argument about market share is less relevant. What data was used for example? Did they compare F2P MMO’s to P2P MMO’s? Or was this cash shop transactions as opposed to subscription revenue? WoW has a cash shop, it is that sort of fact that totally muddies the water. Also were the B2P games like GW2 and TSW put in the F2P category? We have that so often on here, B2P is not F2P so if they made that mistake it would distort the results. Finally were MMO's which started as P2P but are now using a hybrid model counted as P2P or F2P?
The P2P, B2P and F2P models are merging into a hybrid payment model, to say any one model is now more successful even in just financial terms is very questionable.
Comments
There are very few honest F2P games left, very very few.
There is hardly a need for division for me since I consider almost every F2P game Pay 2 Win.
(the only exception I played was Street Gears, great game but it got shut down sadly)
We started out with calling every game that had more than cosmetics Pay 2 Win, that was the line in the sand. The line was easy to spot, every game that offers power is Pay 2 Win, it allows you to win a battle that was unwinnable before.
Now some people have started to move this line and are affraid to call games pay 2 win.
GW2, Planetside, Neverwinter, Tera. All of these games are Pay 2 Win games. They do no longer just sell cosmetics, they're selling power.
Game companies saw that people are not just willing to spend money in F2P, they are willing to spend WAY more than a P2P player, and they're taking full advantage of this, regarless of the effect on game balance or feelings of players.
Even regular people who aren't rich, are starting to spend big on F2P games, $10 there, $30 there, $20 there, and before they know it they spent $100 in a month, it's no longer just the whales, many people are spending a lot of cash in F2P games.
They want to get the shiny armor, the new weapon, some extra bag space, a bit faster XP, a nice looking mount to show friends, they get addicted, and without realising it they're on a spending spree, throwing away money left and right on virtual items.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the average player in a F2P game, not just the whales, spends way more than a P2P player does.
I'm not really sure why you would think that was "burying me." You aren't even replying to what you quoted and you admit the problem exists. And it is very relevant to the topic.
If a game comes out with an expansion (WoW for instance), all future content updates will be for players that own the expansion. At that point you are paying $15 a month for access to the game, but very little to none of the updates. That seems pretty straight forward to me and it seems like it would be an important issue to consider.
In response to the second half of your post, there are more than a few F2P MMORPGs that allow you to use in game currency to purchase store items. LotRO, DDO, TERA, GW2, NWO, PS2 are a few. And in all of them, a 20-30 hour grind like you suggest as being ok in LoL will get you quite a lot in the store.
It doesn't matter what would surprise you. What you wrote here is just incorrect. F2P games need far more people to make the same amount of money as P2P games. This means that the average that a player spends is much smaller in F2P games.
All of your evidence is not even anecdotal. You are now expressing what imaginary "average" people do in your own head when playing F2P games. How can someone have a conversation with a person that is just simply making shit up.
It isn't the business model that differentiates those publishers (games), but how they are being managed. There is nothing in their design that is stopping POE or LOL from adding items that give cash shop users a larger advantage over free loaders.
It is impossible to divide games beyond cash shop and no cash shop. Dividing cash shop games any further would be based on the purely subjective critieria of how " fair " or unbalancing the cash shop effects the game.
Just to give you an example, I still consider PoE a P2W game, but I do recognize that it is much fair than most and quite fun to play.
depends on the game/company. Try playing AION F2P and dont tell me anything is hidden behind the F2P firewall that impedes your play and enjoyment of the game.
I think that early on F2P is about what "extras" you can buy to make the introduction period more interesting. This is similar to preorder bonuses and whatnot from P2P series. So no real difference there.
Problem is the as the game matures and revenues naturally declines F2P series seemingly fall prey to Pay2Win tactics to drum up easy money. P2P has to continually add content to the game to keep their customers interested. I believe the later to be the much more healthy mechanic in the long term.
Then play a series of games for short term. F2P is better for short term.
In my opinion, there is a hell of a grind to get to 30 in LoL. There is a hell of a grind if you want to play as a certain hero that cost 6400 or whatever it is and don't want to pay money to play that hero. Being a MOBA does not somehow magically exclude grinding for things you want in the cash shop. I mean, in MMORPGs you are always playing the game to get more gold or whatever. How is always playing a MOBA any different?
You never made an argument counter to what I was saying by the way. That was why I was confused about why you even said that. You simply stated that you were going to "bury me" and then said something completely unrelated to what you quoted.
Another thing that you are talking about that is completely unrelated is this idea that you would like to play vanilla WoW again. What does that have to do with anything? No one was discussing whether or not updates improve anything. It's only that updates in the future will never be made for you and you will still have to pay to play anyway. It's not about your personal preference for an earlier version, it's about people feeling like they are getting value for their money.
Who would pay $15/month for a game that never updates? Probably very, very few.
The quality of most F2P is horrendous. I don't feel in any way slightest because I can't play an F2P Casino game where people are nickel and dimed and some poor kid is paying $1000 a month just to be able to enjoy a game.
If that's your future you can keep it.
Wow .. we are talking about games here, not necessities of life.
No one should feel desperate. They should go do something else, like read a book, or watch a movie, if the current MMOs are not for them.
Horrendous to you .. fun for many (otherwise why would F2P players outnumber P2P ones 6 to 1?)
Yes, i will keep it. I am enjoying myself. So what will you do now? Play SP games? Read a book? May be time to watch all the episodes of I love Lucy? Inquiring minds want to know.
I agree. I think they should either adapt, move on or play a sub game. But if they prefer to play new MMORPGs over the things you listed, it really is getting desperate for the people that can't stand any model with a cash shop at all.
I think there are some really great F2P/B2P games. Also, like I've stated before, I don't pay anywhere close to how much I pay in sub games as I do in F2P games and I've learned to really like that about them.
But you can keep using hyperbole and act like the world is black and white as much as you want. I already know you are resistant to understanding things even when they are explained to you because you still don't know what anecdotal evidence is. Why would anyone try and discuss with you the subtleties of the black and white world you live in when your attitude just shuts every other opinion out completely?
No, that's not how it works. People would not be willing to play vanilla WoW for 8 years with no updates for $15/month. I don't know why you think that would have been possible for any game to get away with, especially with the kind of competition that is out there right now, but that is a recipe for disaster.
That is the key word. It is all about competition.
I just took my kids out to see Iron Man 3 on Imax 3D yesterday. It costs $43 (just the tickets including service charget buying them online). Why was i willing to pay $43 .. because there is no substititute .. i wanted to see IM3. I wanted IMAX 3D .. best experience. The key is that i can't find a similar experience for less money.
Now for MMOs ... i can play a lot of MMOs for free .. and they are as much fun as a p2p one like WOW. Now tell me, why would i want to pay even a cent for WOW?
I thought the same thing when I read CalmOceans' post, and was going to respond to them directly, but it seems you noticed the same error in judgment. They didn't even attempt to provide statistics or even anecdotal evidence, just some airy daydream. I mean, sure, I can imagine that everyone likes playing the same games I do, that pigs can fly, and politicians aren't corrupt - doesn't make it true.
I want to see proof of this supposed "average", not biased conclusions based on nothing.
Then again, the quote came from the same person who called GW2 Pay2Win. And we all know that's not true.
EVE doesn't charge you for expansions.
I think he is doing it on purpose. I wonder if he believes his own fantasy.
What the situation is now, what the figures are now is somewhat irrelevant. We are going through a period of changing financial models. So called F2P was held back by Subscription being the norm, that is no longer the case.
What F2P games think they can charge is now wide open. It does not take a genius to realise that those guys who pay nothing are a potential gold mine. Already the F2P financial model 'encourages' players who don't pay to put some money down. Those design screws will be tightened to ensure more players who once played for nothing cough up.
We now have Subs in so called F2P games. Old style subscription and F2P are going to become a thing of the past. If you can’t see that writing on the wall, I am not sure I can spell it out much more clearly for you.
As for evidence that F2P can end up costing more than a subscription, we have had countless threads and posts on here from players who have had their fingers burnt. Those posters replying here who seem to have forgotten that have rather convenient memories. With multiple ways to pay I predict that will continue even if players are not getting their fingers burnt in the same way they did under the old F2P model.
That does not excuse making up facts.
A period of changing financial models? I think they are more or less changed. Plus, one side of the market taking share from another is always relevant.
My point is they are still changing, you seem to think everything is going to F2P and it stops there. How on earth does anyone call a F2P game that has a subscription "F2P"? Hybrid revenue models are taking over and evolving as they do so.
Market share would be more relevent if the subscription and F2P models were fixed, they are not. I am not saying it does not show a shift, but when WoW has a cash shop and F2P MMO's have a subscription, the comparison is becoming somewhat meaningless. I think inside a couple of years it will be meaningless, what defines a subscription and F2P is changing so much that the definition is already blured.
The differance between the two models at its core is you must subscribe or you do not need to. I am not sure if that will even hold true in a couple of years, I think the definiton of "you do not need to" is changing as we speak.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never say anything about stopping.
Markets always change. In fact, i pointed out that F2P is GROWING several times. Growing is not "stopping", is it?
Are you disagree with the fact that F2P is growing? Now no one knows what happens in another 5 years. I don't expect the market to stay the same then .. but that does not invalidate of what is happening now.
And your second point is just semantic. I have no objective if you want to restate the fact as "F2P-hybrid games are growing and gaining share against P2P-only games". Do you deny P2P-only games are in the decline?
We seem to be having separate discussions. You are having one we had years ago, about what share P2P and F2P have of the market.
I am trying to answer the OP’s question: Free to play "really just means "we're not going to tell you how much we intend to make you pay or how you'll be crippled if you don't."
The two gaming models have moved on from a couple of years ago. Every new subscription game will have a cash shop. Every new F2P game will have a subscription. This will lead to players in both models being ignorant of how much they will need to pay.
This also means your argument about market share is less relevant. What data was used for example? Did they compare F2P MMO’s to P2P MMO’s? Or was this cash shop transactions as opposed to subscription revenue? WoW has a cash shop, it is that sort of fact that totally muddies the water. Also were the B2P games like GW2 and TSW put in the F2P category? We have that so often on here, B2P is not F2P so if they made that mistake it would distort the results. Finally were MMO's which started as P2P but are now using a hybrid model counted as P2P or F2P?
The P2P, B2P and F2P models are merging into a hybrid payment model, to say any one model is now more successful even in just financial terms is very questionable.