Current targetting trend - does it bother anyone else out there

yangdude

When I play PWI (yeah still I know) and I fight something I have to tab target right.  Okay fair enough for 1 v 1.  If I want to aoe I need to also tab target and basically hope/wait to see who else gets hit by my aoe.  Same the other way around.  I try to stay the right distance away from a boss and hopefully its aoe misses me.  I need to adjust what I do based on those hits and misses.  It applies to healing and buffs as well.

This adds a real element of immersion for me - that 'not quite sure' or 'waiting to see' element to an interaction.

Now I realized something that took that away from my gameplay with GW2.  I also see it in seemingly every new thing coming out.  Its the new targetting method/trend which I dont even know the technical term sorry, but its in GW2, The Aurora World, ArcheAge, Black Desert etc etc. (I only mention these because they are the ones whose traliers I just watched again)

You have some interaction coming up and these pretty pink, orange, red and blue circles appear all over the place.  You want to hit something - a circle lets you know if you will hit it; the boss is about to do an aoe, lots of circles appear all over the place so you just walk to a spot not targetted by one of the circles.  You want to hit something with a canon way over there somewhere - a little circle in the distance makes sure you hit it. 

I find this trend really cheap and annoying and, for me with GW2 anyway, took something away from the immersive aspect.  I mean seriously - nice little coloured circles all of the place!!  Where did this trend come from - is this a GenY requirement that you must never be allowed to miss and get hand fed through life!! (Sorry apologies to any non-steriotypical GenY's out there)

Anyway thats all. Good health.

nariusseldon

And i found this trend good (for me) gameplay. Do i really want to experiment the range of boss AOE by wiping again and again?

That is just not fun. It is about deciding if i can survive the attack, and position myself either to tank or avoid the attack. If i want to be a surveyor, i won't be playing a video game.

The games need to provide visual clues.

BahamutKaiser

Visual ques should exist, they should be a little more natural, if not difficult to recognize though. Like a boss AoE showing some sort of glow or some sort of positioning or posture on your character when they have acquired a target, so it looks natural. And assisted aiming or target acquisition doesn't always have to result in a successful hit...

My favorite targeting comes from the old armored core games. This partial aiming+partial auto targeting helped make different attacks and weapons more efficient in different ways, and I think that is the perfect direction for action MMOs.

chaintm

This is simple...

 

Visual Q's are needed till the day actual animations represent what is coming.

DamonVile

red rings.... such a weak way to handle targeting in action combat. It totally kills the action feel when you dive and roll....just to the other side of the red line and you're totally safe.

I guess people who would really rather have tab targeting or turn based combat like knowing exactly how far they have to move to be safe. Those who like action combat because it feels " realistic " find it detracts from that.

Squeak69

i miss good old tab targeting, i never understood what was wrong with it, for RPGs why dose RPGs have to inch more and more to FPS with each game that comes out, NWN 2 perfect combat system i luved it i miss it i still play on a bloody NWN 2 server more then any otehr game, well maybe minecraft but im a addict to that

Reeper

yes like in real life action situations, if all the drivers would just got to all the safe zones, and wait for the color ques on the ground they would never get into accidents, an asian element of game play, and an easy button for those who realy dont want to pay attention to the game, it is sad. as if most games arent so linier already.

 

Atory

this trend is kinda OK for me. I think it's much user friendly compare to the old style. And it's easier to control, unlike before you need to click on the monster to attack

Axehilt

Well I'm a fan of more dynamic abilities.  Instead of a fireball always doing x damage, it could have a sweet spot and do less damage (trailing off gradually) in either range of the sweet spot.  For AOEs this means things like AOEs with a travel time or dynamic damage (big damage in center, falloff over a much wider range.)

In either case, it makes perfect sense for the moves to be clearly telegraphed: I know my AOE is going to land exactly here and at least at the moment I start casting it will affect these targets.  Similar on the receiving end.

Games just tend to be more enjoyable when they revolve around figuring out the optimal way to use each ability, and the optimal way of reacting to your opponents' abilities.  Understanding the effects of those abilities should be clear (including things like knowing the radius and who it's going to affect.)  

Shaigh

What bothers me is a stationary tank in front of the boss,  everyone else stationary behind the boss. At least the new trend forces you to move more

Sulaa

Clear visual telegraphing everything is not fun definately. I don't like this trend.

StonesDK

I get what you are saying OP from a pure immersion standpoint. The visual guides are "artificial" taking some of your immersion away.

 

Peoples stance on this would largely depend how easily they become immersed regardless of "artificial" help or if they even care about immersion up to that point. I personally don't care about immersion. I could just as easily play a game completely lacking of lore if the game was fun. I don't "feel" part of the world as a character.. ever. The only feeling I ever get is playing with other people, not characters part of some elaborate story

 

Singleplayer games however does a great deal for me when it comes to immersion. Sometimes much like being part of a story and watching it unfold much like a book or a movie

 

MMORPGS can't really afford to appeal to the few. They have to appeal to the many.

Vorch

Originally posted by Shaigh

What bothers me is a stationary tank in front of the boss,  everyone else stationary behind the boss. At least the new trend forces you to move more

This. I used to tank a bit in GW1, and it never made sense why the enemies, being bombarded by 6-10 other people, would not simply run around me.

If you can think of a better que for AoE and boss attacks than red circles, then be my guest. I liked how TERA did it with the glowing red eyes, but they had WAY too much time between the red eyes and the actual attack.

 

Axehilt

Originally posted by Sulaa
Clear visual telegraphing everything is not fun definately. I don't like this trend.

Let's take it a step further to make the game really unusable!

• You click your ability, but you don't know exactly when it'll happen.  No cast time is listed, and in fact the game lags a bit and sometimes your instant Interrupt spell happens after 5 seconds!
• Sometimes ASDW are reversed, with W moving your backwards (and so on.)
• There are no friend or foe indicators and everyone looks the same.  (Oops this one might already exist. Sorry, Darkfall.)
• Your abilities' descriptions occasionally change.  Sorry, Bob, that button used to be my healing spell.  Oops, looks like that's no longer my rez spell either.
• Often when you step into the Lair of the Supreme Overlord, the boss isn't there.
• Sometimes the minimap is reversed.
• Sometimes using an ore node will actually take ore out of your inventory and give it to the node, which then burrows its way back into the mountain.

Let's get rid of all clear telegraphing of any kind across the board basically. 

Sulaa

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Sulaa
Clear visual telegraphing everything is not fun definately. I don't like this trend.

Let's take it a step further to make the game really unusable!

• You click your ability, but you don't know exactly when it'll happen.  No cast time is listed, and in fact the game lags a bit and sometimes your instant Interrupt spell happens after 5 seconds!
• Sometimes ASDW are reversed, with W moving your backwards (and so on.)
• There are no friend or foe indicators and everyone looks the same.  (Oops this one might already exist. Sorry, Darkfall.)
• Your abilities' descriptions occasionally change.  Sorry, Bob, that button used to be my healing spell.  Oops, looks like that's no longer my rez spell either.
• Often when you step into the Lair of the Supreme Overlord, the boss isn't there.
• Sometimes the minimap is reversed.
• Sometimes using an ore node will actually take ore out of your inventory and give it to the node, which then burrows its way back into the mountain.

Let's get rid of all clear telegraphing of any kind across the board basically. 

Please. You can do better than that. Unless you just want to troll a bit.

Axehilt

Originally posted by Sulaa

Please. You can do better than that. Unless you just want to troll a bit.

I don't need to troll to make the point.  A game's systems shouldn't be needlessly unclear, only the precise way the player needs to act and react to them.  Being able to see where damage is headed via some method (either very clear projectile graphics or with a ground decal or with a noticeable unique animation; all are examples of telegraphs) is critical for a game to actually have gameplay.

If Boss A has a telegraphed move which is dodgeable, player skill matters.  The game is interactive.

If Boss B has the same move with zero telegraph, player skill is irrelevant.  With less interactivity, the game is actually less of a game.

There are exceptions; for example it's fine to have bits of low-level incoming damage to challenge healers, or lots of tiny unavoidable AOEs so players spread out during the fight as a reaction, but there's a limit to how many of these things work.  If Boss C's only mechanic is a constant random flurry of player-centered PBAOE attacks, then yeah you're going to decide to spread out the raid to minimize the effects of that ability -- but that's just one decision at the start of the fight, and makes for a very uninteresting fight overall.

So telegraphed abilities are critical to a game actually being a game, because they're the things you act and react to.  They're what creates the multiple decision points that makes games interesting and fun.

Sovrath

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser
Visual ques should exist, they should be a little more natural, if not difficult to recognize though. Like a boss AoE showing some sort of glow or some sort of positioning or posture on your character when they have acquired a target, so it looks natural. And assisted aiming or target acquisition doesn't always have to result in a successful hit...

My favorite targeting comes from the old armored core games. This partial aiming+partial auto targeting helped make different attacks and weapons more efficient in different ways, and I think that is the perfect direction for action MMOs.

I think that's the right direction for it.

Seeing some perfect glowing red circle never seems to really fit.

My thougth is that if a visual target is required it can be added in a natural organic way.

So, for example, where a "circle" appears perhaps that can be replaced with a "ground bubbling" or "steaming" visual clue and then suddenly an erruption.

Something that makes the ground look like it is being altered just before the explosion.

a cone could be an increasing area of energy and then at its apex the skill goes off.

 

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waynejr2

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Sulaa

Please. You can do better than that. Unless you just want to troll a bit.

I don't need to troll to make the point.  A game's systems shouldn't be needlessly unclear, only the precise way the player needs to act and react to them.  Being able to see where damage is headed via some method (either very clear projectile graphics or with a ground decal or with a noticeable unique animation; all are examples of telegraphs) is critical for a game to actually have gameplay.

If Boss A has a telegraphed move which is dodgeable, player skill matters.  The game is interactive.

If Boss B has the same move with zero telegraph, player skill is irrelevant.  With less interactivity, the game is actually less of a game.

There are exceptions; for example it's fine to have bits of low-level incoming damage to challenge healers, or lots of tiny unavoidable AOEs so players spread out during the fight as a reaction, but there's a limit to how many of these things work.  If Boss C's only mechanic is a constant random flurry of player-centered PBAOE attacks, then yeah you're going to decide to spread out the raid to minimize the effects of that ability -- but that's just one decision at the start of the fight, and makes for a very uninteresting fight overall.

So telegraphed abilities are critical to a game actually being a game, because they're the things you act and react to.  They're what creates the multiple decision points that makes games interesting and fun.

 Can the boss have player like skills to?  Like that telegraphed move is really a feint that if you counter you suffer worse effects?

pmiles

It has more to do with the field of view.  In most MMOs, you are looking over the shoulder of your character, not through their eyes... so without the targeting reticule, you'd be hard pressed to accurately target something without physically selecting it.  They also can't replicate what you'd normally be able to see in your field of view without distorting the environment, so even if you were looking through the eyes of your character, you aren't seeing everything that your eyes would be able to see (think of having blinders on, you'd have to turn to see what you'd normally see with of your peripheral vision).

 

In reality, tab targetting or any form of sticky targeting, is making your life easier.  Imagine if you had to really keep your target directly in your line of sight at all times in order to even hit it.  Most games give you a fairly large buffer zone so that as long as you are close, you're going to hit your target.

 

AoE effects have to offer some sort of visual queue or you would never be able to avoid them.  I remember mods being written to warn if you were standing too close to another player because the mechanics of the fight required that no one be within x distance of each other.  Without such mods, you'd wipe over and over until players got a sense of their spatial distance.

 

The reality is, if a nuke is incoming (a real nuclear missile), it doesn't come with a targeting reticule to warn you of it's arrival.  When it hits, you won't know it because you will be dead.  Boss fights basically tell you in advance that a nuke is incoming so that you can avoid them.  It's akin to you whispering your opponent that you are about to stunlock them.  The challenge in the fight is more or less survival, not outwitting your opponent.  If you die, you failed to master the mechanics.  You need to take a refresher course on dancing with the stars... because that's all they really are... dances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

fantasyfreak112

I've never found aiming clunky moves that your character would never widely miss in real life anymore realistic then tab targetting to be honest. I think more emphasis should be placed on strategy of the moves you choose instead of how much cheesy non stop action there is.

Xthos

I am not a big fan of it either, it feels dumbed down, it makes me laugh, oh look, I know something is coming to hit me, better move....I prefer to get hit, then go what the hell hit me, and then know not to be that close, if you are a caster etc, or if it is a frontal attack and such....Not a big fan of the visual aids...

 

I understand it though, it just goes along with the trend though, lfd/lfg/lfr, 2-3 man raids, and such....Hopefully some of the newer more snadbox games will offer a better variety for people.

H3deon

dont know about other MMOs, but in EQ2 you woul have aoe´s to just hit everyone...at times there would be range specific dmg ranges/fail conditions....I do like to "not knowing", but I think the telegraphing open up for more posibbilities, rather than just aoes just hitting everyone every 39 sec...or so. 

I think this new trend of showing where AoEs land actually make gameplay more emergent, rather than dumb down the gameplay -  am just talking from a EQ2 point of view....but there you would just need to learn timers these days, and know if the attack is a frontal, reverse or what range it will land on.

I do miss the days where raiding were more about micro management though, with defense/attack trade offs, but then people I played with never really were good at cooperating, so often it went awful, DPSers going full burn even if they got aggro, healers that couldnt heal because they went tooo defensive etc....but that were the challenge from my perspective "in the good old days" coooperation....but it seems like no one wants this, so emergent gameplay seem like a better, secondary, choice for me

Axehilt

Originally posted by waynejr2

 Can the boss have player like skills to?  Like that telegraphed move is really a feint that if you counter you suffer worse effects?

If player skill can overcome the problem, then sure.

If player skill can't, then it's not gameplay.

So if the boss casts a spell like players with a 2.0 sec cast time, but completely randomly will "spell-juke" and cancel it at 0.5 seconds, then players can identify the pattern and react to it (by interrupting early so they don't get juked.)

Whereas if the boss casts an identical-looking spell with the same 2.0 sec cast time, but it's a fake spell where interrupting it causes you to suffer tons of damage, there's no way to skillfully know when it's acceptable to actually interrupt the boss, so player skill doesn't matter (and the boss having that trait doesn't really add to combat.)

If there's no way to skillfully predict the opponent and react, you may as well play Rock-Paper-Scissors against a computer guessing via random numbers.

While some players might be okay with bosses being simple loot slot machines (where you just do whatever and hope you succeed), I find RPGs to be much more enjoyable when they are interesting skill challenges (where you must play skillfully to defeat the boss.)

Loktofeit

Originally posted by chaintm

This is simple...

 

Visual Q's are needed till the day actual animations represent what is coming.

bcbully

I don't think it bothers me, but is it really an eveolution in play, or even better? I literally slid my mouse from side to side while spamming my left click (fire) and hit everything on the screen during my few minutes in Neverwinter.