I understand your position - I really do. Please don't think otherwise.
However - on your first point - it is not unheard of to update an old classic to a current audience. The LAM story could have been updated and re-released from an older telling - so lore doesn't break with this caveat.
On your second point - fine, the age ranges appear wrong.
At the end of the day though, the lore breaks here don't destroy immersion. They are a little abrasive, depending on your sensibilities, but I don't think they make anything significant fall over.
A single book does not a game make, nor indeed an age range for various races - none of which will ever be played for long enough for it to matter.
There are larger lore-breaking issues. In truth, I was expecting a post on those before I finished reading.
These seem pretty minor.
Well, not really. The book has been written by Crassius. It plays a major roll in the main quest of the first game. But aye. All together this is quite a silly thing to be bothered by, but if the dev team keep just "forgetting" lore like that it won't only be a spinoff, it will be an alternate universe.
Still, you make some fair points. It would only be a minor and temporary immersion breaker but it wouldn't kill the lore itself. However they made up a new name for Molag Bal as well. Calling him the "Lord of Schemes" or something. He is known to be one of the more blunt and shortminded Daedra. He is called "King of Rape" and "Lord of domination and slavery". That's just silly. They have been warping the lore a lot, recently.
Yes and no. It's not game breaking, but considering you're dealing with a well known and loved IP, showing some respect to your audience, by at the least not fiddling with things that don't negatively affect game design, would only be appropriate. And a loremaster, well....you can hardly expect players will cheer when you twist and turn what's already been written to suit your liking, or worse, out of ignorance.
The game has already had a fair amount of bad press, one would think, they'd be more careful on certain fronts:(
Fans can be over picky as well. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both have a deep lore that has changed over the years to fit the now. Superman at the start could not fly and could only jump over buildings. As time went on the lore changed to fit the now and the needs. Its little changes that over time change the whole or part of any stories lore. Sometimes its needed and sometimes its not. Looking back at ESO 10 years from now... I bet it will have changed the lore a lot and fans will be nit picking over new changes quoting ESO as the new lore book. Really that big a deal?? Guess thats up to the fans. For me... (((shrugs))) At this point it seems close enough but we wont really know till we play it as a whole.
Look at lord of the rings movies. There were a few people so bent out of shape over minor crap. So obsessive.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".
It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".
Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".
I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".
It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".
Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".
I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.
Well, you are reading what I said kind of off. Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them. If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay. Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".
It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".
Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".
I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.
Well, you are reading what I said kind of off. Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them. If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay. Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.
Let me just clarify what gameplay is. Gameplay is how the game is played, what mechanics it uses, the smoothness of the animation and the things you can do. It is the ACTIVE element of the game.
The lore on the other hand is part of the passive element of the game. Taking part behind the scenes kind of. You can immerse yourself if you'd like.
Quests may sometimes make references to the lore but quests are what's between the gameplay and the lore.
So the only way for gameplay to get in a conflict with lore is if you are playing in a world where magic does not exist at all. Not in the lore, not in the game. And then you suddenly add a wand that shoots fireballs and just saying "It's magic, baby!" instead of making it into a flamethrower.
Well, you are reading what I said kind of off. Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them. If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay. Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.
I appreciate what you are saying but I've yet to see a bit of lore that couldn't be worked with as far as game play.
I do think one of the issues is that deveopers (and possibly more the producers?) want to reach out to as many players as they can so they bastardize their IP in order to obtain that very result. Probably bendign here or there because they think "x" decision won't be considered "fun" and will turn people off.
IF an IP indicates that something is "just the way it is" It's up to the game developer to see what is interesting about that idea, capitalize on it and make it compelling.
restrictions are always a good thing because they give you a solid spine from where you can grow your ideas.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by rygard49 Is this really that important?
To a random MMO player? NO
To a true TES fan? VERY MUCH SO
The only reason a TES fan would want to play TESO is because it gives the same lore and (preferably as close as) the same experience as its SP counterpart.
Unfortunately as a TES fan, the more I hear and see about this MMO the less I am attracted to it.
If it is F2P I will definately take a look myself. If it is B2P I will wait for reviews. If it is P2P they are doomed already...
(Dear trolls, this post was my opinion and my opinion only! If you feel the need to hate please go elsewhere as your desire for a flame battle shall not be fulfilled here. Good day!)
I have to ask honestly if you think that "true" TES fans aren't also MMO players and vice versa? I don't believe they're mutually exclusive, but perhaps you do, and I'm interested to know why you think that.
You're very limiting in your opinion of what a "true" ES fan's motives would be for playing this game. It seems as if you're saying that only one iteration of the game is allowed for it to please the "true" fans, that of the first person action RPG. So another question: Do you also feel that a TES real time strategy game would be rejected by the "true" fans? Or an arcade style side-scrolling game? How about an ES themed MOBA?
Not questioning your right to express your opinion, simply trying to understand the motives behind them.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Yes and no. It's not game breaking, but considering you're dealing with a well known and loved IP, showing some respect to your audience, by at the least not fiddling with things that don't negatively affect game design, would only be appropriate. And a loremaster, well....you can hardly expect players will cheer when you twist and turn what's already been written to suit your liking, or worse, out of ignorance.
The game has already had a fair amount of bad press, one would think, they'd be more careful on certain fronts:(
Fans can be over picky as well. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both have a deep lore that has changed over the years to fit the now. Superman at the start could not fly and could only jump over buildings. As time went on the lore changed to fit the now and the needs. Its little changes that over time change the whole or part of any stories lore. Sometimes its needed and sometimes its not. Looking back at ESO 10 years from now... I bet it will have changed the lore a lot and fans will be nit picking over new changes quoting ESO as the new lore book. Really that big a deal?? Guess thats up to the fans. For me... (((shrugs))) At this point it seems close enough but we wont really know till we play it as a whole.
There's also a reason in the very early editions of superman that explains why he did not have all his abilities such as flight. Mainly because he refused to accept his alien heritage; in which he blanked out those memories/abilities until he met someone who trained him to unleash the powers he once had.
LOL, that was added to the lore to cover the fact he could not fly before. Thanks for proving my point. You are now quoting that like it was always the lore. Lore changes to fit the need. And one day its just the lore that is.
Not saying the changes ESO has made are right or wrong. All Im saying is this is the norm of any story over time. This is not uncommon or that big a deal. Dose the fan have the right to get upset? Sure. But will it change it from happening? Nope.
Originally posted by rygard49 Is this really that important?
To a random MMO player? NO
To a true TES fan? VERY MUCH SO
The only reason a TES fan would want to play TESO is because it gives the same lore and (preferably as close as) the same experience as its SP counterpart.
Unfortunately as a TES fan, the more I hear and see about this MMO the less I am attracted to it.
If it is F2P I will definately take a look myself. If it is B2P I will wait for reviews. If it is P2P they are doomed already...
(Dear trolls, this post was my opinion and my opinion only! If you feel the need to hate please go elsewhere as your desire for a flame battle shall not be fulfilled here. Good day!)
I have to ask honestly if you think that "true" TES fans aren't also MMO players and vice versa? I don't believe they're mutually exclusive, but perhaps you do, and I'm interested to know why you think that.
You're very limiting in your opinion of what a "true" ES fan's motives would be for playing this game. It seems as if you're saying that only one iteration of the game is allowed for it to please the "true" fans, that of the first person action RPG. So another question: Do you also feel that a TES real time strategy game would be rejected by the "true" fans? Or an arcade style side-scrolling game? How about an ES themed MOBA?
Not questioning your right to express your opinion, simply trying to understand the motives behind them.
I don't think he is trying to say that there are no MMO players who love the TES series. I think he is trying to say that someone who loves the TES franchise wants the lore to be true to the series.
And some random MMO player who has never played the TES series (except for Skyrim, maybe) would probably not care what happened back in the previous four games.
in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
Originally posted by tkreep in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
He's actually retracted that statement. Thank God!
Originally posted by tkreep in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".
TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.
It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.
Originally posted by rygard49 Is this really that important?
I had this issue with Age of Conan, and necromancers/demonologists, running with pets out in Cimmeria where they would be insta gibbed. Seeing priests of mitra killing each other in the cosmetic make up of races and classes that made aoc a video game an not an mmorpg - was frustrating.
So, yes. I believe that's why you don't use an mmorpg's name without being strict to the lore. It's utter nonsense what happened in Age of Conan and other titles - but to the average gamer who just wants a temporary game, this matters little.
What's the difference between a video game and an MMORPG? Why would an MMO have to be held to stricter standards as far as the lore? I would think the opposite. In order to have a massive audience playing simultaneously, you have to concede certain aspects of lore to allow that. Not that this book thing is in the same vein as Priests of Mitra killing each other in AoC.
This complaint about a book being in the game at the wrong time period... This is just minutiae that very few would even notice, let alone care about.
You obviously never played SWG. It started off as one little thing here and one little thing there. Two years later the entire game was a lore stomping extravganza. It was impossible for the actual roleplayers in the game to not notice all the nonsense. This also reminds me of Star Trek online. Sure, you could try to immerse yourself into that world; but, you're going to notice the hunderds of ships that are out of place, along with the people wearing uniforms that don't fit the time or place. I wouldn't even know where to being with bad story telling. It invokes the feeling of apathy in the community. If no one else is going to bother following the established canon of an IP, why should the player care about it?
If you don't understand what roleplaying is, perhaps it's time to do some serious research. Sure you can find people on this site debating day and night about the definition of it; but, people who roleplayed long before MMOs, they seem to be the only ones who get it. It's difficult to immerse yourself into a world full of contradictions. Might as well be playing mine sweeper if you want mind numbing entertainment. That's not why MMORPGs were created though, they were an obvious improvement upon MUDs. Since then they have evolved into a multiplayer smorgasbord, containing whatever will attract subscribers for a period of time and when that fails, they invent some other random gimmick out of desperation.
Originally posted by tkreep in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".
TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.
It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.
Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spock and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.
Originally posted by tkreep in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".
TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.
It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.
Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spoke and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.
Today writers change things so 15 year old twilight girls would appeal to it like the whole spock and Uhura thing smh
This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.
And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.
And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap
That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.
If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore.
Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP.
This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.
And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap
That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.
If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Mephala. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore.
Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP.
Why am I not surprised that you equate your own opinion with the opinion of the "people" and you presume to know what they enjoyed, or that you equate opposite opinions with McEverything?
Thanks for giving us another example of how rigid the thinking of the self-appointed amateur lore guardians usually is.
Hopefully once you guys who constantly threaten to leave actually do, we can get on with discussing the actual game and its true virtues and faults instead of the ever so boring comparisons to your private interpretations of the "titanic IP."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by tkreep in the new ninja turtles movie coming out later this year or next year the turtles originate from an alien race...thats what michael bay said. If people can get away with stuff like that than this is nothing...
Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".
TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.
It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.
Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spock and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.
They are not changing the lore. They are disregarding it. Making things up from nothing. It's basically like saying that Genghis Khan raided in Asia year 1963 and died year 1090
Some of the Eras in TES are thousands of years apart. TESO will take place in the 583th year of the second era. The author of the book was imperial and born somewhere before the 427th year of the third era.
Just to give you some perspective. The book "The Lusty Argonian Maid" was written by Crassius in the middle of the Third Era. But the book will appear just about 800-900 years before it was written. And imperials have a lifespan of about 80-90 years. And Crassius Curio even named the main character in the play which the book is about. The main character is called Crantius Colto.
This is not about animation quality or available tech. They are just changing the lore out of ignorance. This is not drama. This is not a movie we are talking about. It's a game.
This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.
And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap
That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.
If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore.
Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP.
The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones.
Comments
Well, not really. The book has been written by Crassius. It plays a major roll in the main quest of the first game. But aye. All together this is quite a silly thing to be bothered by, but if the dev team keep just "forgetting" lore like that it won't only be a spinoff, it will be an alternate universe.
Still, you make some fair points. It would only be a minor and temporary immersion breaker but it wouldn't kill the lore itself. However they made up a new name for Molag Bal as well. Calling him the "Lord of Schemes" or something. He is known to be one of the more blunt and shortminded Daedra. He is called "King of Rape" and "Lord of domination and slavery". That's just silly. They have been warping the lore a lot, recently.
Look at lord of the rings movies. There were a few people so bent out of shape over minor crap. So obsessive.
Lore should give way to gameplay.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Actually I don't see why gameplay can't be made fun while fitting "lore".
It seems a cop out when players start shouting "lore shoudl give to game play".
Except there really isn't ever any reason why one can't have good game play and still stick to the "facts".
I know some people don't know this but there are actual design ideas that lean toward adopting strict boundaries in order to free your decisions. I happen to agree with them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, you are reading what I said kind of off. Lore should give way to gameplay means, when there is a conflict between them. If they work together lore is not giving away and neither is gameplay. Making gameplay hokey because you are deferring to lore makes bad gameplay imo.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Let me just clarify what gameplay is. Gameplay is how the game is played, what mechanics it uses, the smoothness of the animation and the things you can do. It is the ACTIVE element of the game.
The lore on the other hand is part of the passive element of the game. Taking part behind the scenes kind of. You can immerse yourself if you'd like.
Quests may sometimes make references to the lore but quests are what's between the gameplay and the lore.
So the only way for gameplay to get in a conflict with lore is if you are playing in a world where magic does not exist at all. Not in the lore, not in the game. And then you suddenly add a wand that shoots fireballs and just saying "It's magic, baby!" instead of making it into a flamethrower.
I appreciate what you are saying but I've yet to see a bit of lore that couldn't be worked with as far as game play.
I do think one of the issues is that deveopers (and possibly more the producers?) want to reach out to as many players as they can so they bastardize their IP in order to obtain that very result. Probably bendign here or there because they think "x" decision won't be considered "fun" and will turn people off.
IF an IP indicates that something is "just the way it is" It's up to the game developer to see what is interesting about that idea, capitalize on it and make it compelling.
restrictions are always a good thing because they give you a solid spine from where you can grow your ideas.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I lol'd irl!!
I have to ask honestly if you think that "true" TES fans aren't also MMO players and vice versa? I don't believe they're mutually exclusive, but perhaps you do, and I'm interested to know why you think that.
You're very limiting in your opinion of what a "true" ES fan's motives would be for playing this game. It seems as if you're saying that only one iteration of the game is allowed for it to please the "true" fans, that of the first person action RPG. So another question: Do you also feel that a TES real time strategy game would be rejected by the "true" fans? Or an arcade style side-scrolling game? How about an ES themed MOBA?
Not questioning your right to express your opinion, simply trying to understand the motives behind them.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
LOL, that was added to the lore to cover the fact he could not fly before. Thanks for proving my point. You are now quoting that like it was always the lore. Lore changes to fit the need. And one day its just the lore that is.
Not saying the changes ESO has made are right or wrong. All Im saying is this is the norm of any story over time. This is not uncommon or that big a deal. Dose the fan have the right to get upset? Sure. But will it change it from happening? Nope.
I don't think he is trying to say that there are no MMO players who love the TES series. I think he is trying to say that someone who loves the TES franchise wants the lore to be true to the series.
And some random MMO player who has never played the TES series (except for Skyrim, maybe) would probably not care what happened back in the previous four games.
He's actually retracted that statement. Thank God!
Whilst the film might be silly to many of the fans of that franchise it does not harm its previous history. It won't impact the franchise that has already been made or will be made by others. It will always be the "Michael Bay's Ninja Turtles".
TES is however is an on going history. Everything that happens in the TES games, even this one spinoff will be recoreded in the lore of TES. The invasion of Molag Bal will be considered to be history in the game.
It's not like making a movie. Or even just making up alternate universes for the sake of the game like they did with that new Superhero fighting game. (My apologies. Personally I find all superhero franchises to be uninteresting much like a lot of people don't care for the TES lore.) Point is, this game won't be "Off the record". This will be a part of the continuing games. Whilst it's a small thing, and random lore-holes left open can be disregarded, it still means that they are not taking the lore into enough consideration.
You obviously never played SWG. It started off as one little thing here and one little thing there. Two years later the entire game was a lore stomping extravganza. It was impossible for the actual roleplayers in the game to not notice all the nonsense. This also reminds me of Star Trek online. Sure, you could try to immerse yourself into that world; but, you're going to notice the hunderds of ships that are out of place, along with the people wearing uniforms that don't fit the time or place. I wouldn't even know where to being with bad story telling. It invokes the feeling of apathy in the community. If no one else is going to bother following the established canon of an IP, why should the player care about it?
If you don't understand what roleplaying is, perhaps it's time to do some serious research. Sure you can find people on this site debating day and night about the definition of it; but, people who roleplayed long before MMOs, they seem to be the only ones who get it. It's difficult to immerse yourself into a world full of contradictions. Might as well be playing mine sweeper if you want mind numbing entertainment. That's not why MMORPGs were created though, they were an obvious improvement upon MUDs. Since then they have evolved into a multiplayer smorgasbord, containing whatever will attract subscribers for a period of time and when that fails, they invent some other random gimmick out of desperation.
War thought the lore
But the lore didn't win.
Unlike real life, stories change and grow. Why? Because of society changing, so what is relevant changes. Because of tech, making a superhero fly 50 years ago was not something that could be done well but now it just looks awesome. Because of many many other reasons. Sometimes its just because the writers want to take something in a new direction. Heck in the new Star Trek trailer Spock and Uhura kiss. Different time line (((shrugs))) Writers change things for many reasons and then try and find creative ways to have it make sense. ESO writers will do the same thing here with success or failure. Its the way of all stories. What really matters is the essence of TES not always the small details and sometimes even the big ones dont matter if the ends are big and rewarding enough.
Today writers change things so 15 year old twilight girls would appeal to it like the whole spock and Uhura thing smh
Ah the memories!
This thread x 1000 was the bulk of the discussion in the LOTRO forums. And when it comes to lore policing, this is nothing compared to the Tolkienites. Loremasters and Runekeepers in particular were thought to be lore breaking abominations by the hard core.
And woe be unto anyone who dared say they thought Peter Jackson had improved on Tolkien by getting rid of a lot of useless, boring crap
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That useless boring crap is what people actually enjoyed about the series. I'm sorry, you don't cut out major characters, like Tom Bombadil, and think that's ok. It's not. There's a reason LoTR was revered for many years, unfortunately our current culture does't appreciate that and wants McEverything.
If they're making an Elder Scrolls game, have the decency to stick to the lore. Changing the function of a Daedric prince is a major cosmological shift. I love pouring over the lore of the game, particularly the lore pertaining to et'Ada (the Daedra and Aedra). Molag Bal is not the Daedra of Schemes, he's the Daedra of Domination. That's his gig. Schemes is Boethiah, aka the Prince of plots. That's not nitpicking, that's decades of established lore.
Every time information released about this game, I get one more reason to not play it. Absolutely sad for such a titanic IP.
Why am I not surprised that you equate your own opinion with the opinion of the "people" and you presume to know what they enjoyed, or that you equate opposite opinions with McEverything?
Thanks for giving us another example of how rigid the thinking of the self-appointed amateur lore guardians usually is.
Hopefully once you guys who constantly threaten to leave actually do, we can get on with discussing the actual game and its true virtues and faults instead of the ever so boring comparisons to your private interpretations of the "titanic IP."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They are not changing the lore. They are disregarding it. Making things up from nothing. It's basically like saying that Genghis Khan raided in Asia year 1963 and died year 1090
Some of the Eras in TES are thousands of years apart. TESO will take place in the 583th year of the second era. The author of the book was imperial and born somewhere before the 427th year of the third era.
Just to give you some perspective. The book "The Lusty Argonian Maid" was written by Crassius in the middle of the Third Era. But the book will appear just about 800-900 years before it was written. And imperials have a lifespan of about 80-90 years. And Crassius Curio even named the main character in the play which the book is about. The main character is called Crantius Colto.
This is not about animation quality or available tech. They are just changing the lore out of ignorance. This is not drama. This is not a movie we are talking about. It's a game.
The point is this is what happens even to stories as epic at LotR. Name me a story worth telling again in any medium and you will find changes. From Star Wars to LotR to comics and right down real life history, writers change things to tell the story they want. IMO its needed, things that are ridged end up breaking. I would suggest you get ready for a long list of small lore changes and maybe a few big ones.