Lord of the Rings online allows all Book 1 raids to be done solo. IMO that breaks down the gaming experience for me. I've played the game twice (rerolled a warden on the new EU server when it became F2P) and just look at the difference:
Honestly, I think raids are meant to be done in a party so that every player has it's own role. It also allows you to learn how other classes play for the next raid you're on...
Originally posted by atticusbc sorta defeats the point of raids doesn't it? i do like what rift did with easier versions of dungeons though. so i suppose it would be nice if more games offered the option to do less difficult, less rewarding version of raids or dungeons, but i'm not sure that it's imperative.
Well, when it is a crucial element of a storyline...it defeats the whole purpose of doing the story line. Not all MMOs I guess would need this, like Vanguard doesn't have any storyline and I don't think Everquest ever did. But, like WoW...the raids are the biggest element to the finale of the story.
However, one is able to do the whole story solo...all the way up to Blizzard's finale.
I'd be okay if the whole storyline forced you to group (or raid), but Blizzard did not design the story that way.
I personally don't care at all about the items or money...I just wanted to see the end of the story.
To the idea of soloing a endgame raid I say hell no. If what you are asking for is a story mode, where all you get is the story but zero other benefits including xp, loot, attunements and achievements, then maybe. As long as it's only story.
Something like what LOTRO did. While I never got into LOTRO...it had story mode dungeons (at least while leveling, never got to endgame). You still got exp, loot...but it was far weaker than what you would get in a group. Find better items out in the world. But, it let you see the actual story and progress the story.
To be honest, I wouldn't care however if there was no xp or loot...if the game has a heavy story element to it (like LOTRO and WoW)...I just want to see the story. Don't care about purples or whatever.
Certainly it is about the xp, loot and such. You dangle out this idea that you want the "story" ::wink wink:: but in the end your true point is made clear. it isn't about the story.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I say yes.why does it matter about how another person our group completes a raid. the point isn't to have fun and be entertained, right? Does your fun disappear based off the gameplay of another individual? I would hope not...
Most of the games in the past decade mine as well let you solo all the raids because they all center around you having this amazing solo online experience anyways.
Should MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games let you have the ability to solo raids?
MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER! What part about that title don't people (both devs and players) understand anymore??
If you want a fancy story and do everything by yourself go play a damn SP RPG...
Just so we are absolutely clear here: NO THEY SHOULDN'T! EVER!
One would think that people would get past the repeatedly debunked talking point of mandatory group functions being the definition (or even necessary) of massively multiplayer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What's being abused here is the term Raid. Raiding gets mixed up with being the definition of a group composition as well as an alias pertained to engaging in an event. Of course you can't raid solo, but the question really is can the event be completed solo.
Should MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games let you have the ability to solo raids?
MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER! What part about that title don't people (both devs and players) understand anymore??
If you want a fancy story and do everything by yourself go play a damn SP RPG...
Just so we are absolutely clear here: NO THEY SHOULDN'T! EVER!
One would think that people would get past the repeatedly debunked talking point of mandatory group functions being the definition (or even necessary) of massively multiplayer.
SOLO PLAYERS UNITE !!
oh.
Good one
that reminds me... I've been thinking about starting a religion for atheists just so that we'd have something to do Sunday mornings beside golf.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I feel the question puts the emphasis in a bad place.
Raids are a minigame, one that requires strong teamwork, reflexes and generally higher tolerance for banging one's head against a wall than I have. A "solo version" of a raid is a completely different minigame - it just happens to recycle the assets of the raid.
Any reward that is shared between two minigames puts those minigames into competition with each other. If I'm playing a game with raids and other instances, I enjoy taking a high level character on danger-free rampages through low-level instances because it's a nice colourful loot pinata (even if the gear itself isn't useful to me). At this point, the raids are already obsolete to all but a small minority of nostalgia-driven raiders, so it's no longer competing with their motivations. All the devs need to do is tweak/remove specific mechanics that previously required the simultaneous coordination of multiple players.
The question of lore I've discovered is more a matter of perception than reality. As a solo player, I tend to imagine there are great epic lore reveals in raids that, once I get to see them, turn out to have been much less dramatic than I had built up in my imagination. I tend to imagine that raids were hiding the answers to all my remaining questions, but so far in my travels, they haven't.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.
In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.
But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.
Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.
Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.
No, people should not be able to solo raids. Yes, everyone should be able to see the content and be rewarded with weaker items for easier content. Looking For Raid (LFR) was a pretty good idea implemented by Blizzard...
The best endgame solo content are the ones not designed to be solo'd. The ones skilled players find a way to solo through perseverance and skill without resorting to hacks or exploits.
I recall many 4-8 hour solo attempts at certain bosses many years ago in FFXI. Those i find fun, while others may see it as a waste of time. If someone wants to spend that much time kiting a boss around while slowly killing it, more power to them. They should never be designed with soloing in mind though. Let the players figure that out.
The best endgame solo content are the ones not designed to be solo'd. The ones skilled players find a way to solo through perseverance and skill without resorting to hacks or exploits.
What about the people who don't meet your definition of skilled. Why would they consider that "best"?
Using WoW as and example as the OP did. I think WoW addressed this issue by adding the Raid Finder.
You can que solo then enter an easy mode version of the raid where you can see the story line and win gear. And while you are playing with 24 other raiders you don't really need to talk to any of them.
The Raid Finder is a middle ground solution. You still have to play with other people to complete the raid but you can enter the raid by yourself and join a random group of people to complete the raid.
Originally posted by Punk999 No i hope MMOs never do that... but with the way this genre has been going i wouldnt be surprised.
If you are paying $10 for the game you want and I am paying $10 for the game I want, but the developers can share half the resources across both games, we each get a game with an effective budget of $15.
(my point being that just because you or I don't personally enjoy the other's playstyle, that's not automatically a good reason for us to oppose that playstyle being in our game)
No, raids should not be solo-able. It pisses me off every time i find out about a new raid boss that was solo'd by some class even 10 levels later. It simply should not be solo-able, especially since these same bosses can't be solo'd by every class. There's something obviously out of balance there.
However i do think it would be cool to have some solo content that gives you an idea of how to fight the bosses and maybe let you fight an avatar of them on your own. Similar to quest chains that lead up to events like in WOTLK where you play as Arthas fighting against Illidan. That was really damn cool. More solo content like that would be really great. 5 man instances allow players to get used to some cool boss mechanic fights together. I think it would be neat to have solo instances that give you the same kind of experience, just obviously tuned for solo play.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief. Join me on TwitchFacebook Twitter
Comments
Lord of the Rings online allows all Book 1 raids to be done solo. IMO that breaks down the gaming experience for me. I've played the game twice (rerolled a warden on the new EU server when it became F2P) and just look at the difference:
The Last Refuge (B5C5)
Old-school party required
New Free2Play solo game
Honestly, I think raids are meant to be done in a party so that every player has it's own role. It also allows you to learn how other classes play for the next raid you're on...
Certainly it is about the xp, loot and such. You dangle out this idea that you want the "story" ::wink wink:: but in the end your true point is made clear. it isn't about the story.
So no solo raid even for story.
/end
btw: I hate bullshit artists.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Should MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online games let you have the ability to solo raids?
MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER! What part about that title don't people (both devs and players) understand anymore??
If you want a fancy story and do everything by yourself go play a damn SP RPG...
Just so we are absolutely clear here: NO THEY SHOULDN'T! EVER!
STOOPID
When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.
solo players should keep with SP games !
We got already too many crap in mmo's ; cut scenes,voice acting,companions,solo instancing, personal story but we all have same ,,personal,,story ...
typo.
Should read "might as well", not "mine as well".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
One would think that people would get past the repeatedly debunked talking point of mandatory group functions being the definition (or even necessary) of massively multiplayer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Pretty much a glorified forced grouping thread...
Good one
that reminds me... I've been thinking about starting a religion for atheists just so that we'd have something to do Sunday mornings beside golf.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I feel the question puts the emphasis in a bad place.
Raids are a minigame, one that requires strong teamwork, reflexes and generally higher tolerance for banging one's head against a wall than I have. A "solo version" of a raid is a completely different minigame - it just happens to recycle the assets of the raid.
Any reward that is shared between two minigames puts those minigames into competition with each other. If I'm playing a game with raids and other instances, I enjoy taking a high level character on danger-free rampages through low-level instances because it's a nice colourful loot pinata (even if the gear itself isn't useful to me). At this point, the raids are already obsolete to all but a small minority of nostalgia-driven raiders, so it's no longer competing with their motivations. All the devs need to do is tweak/remove specific mechanics that previously required the simultaneous coordination of multiple players.
The question of lore I've discovered is more a matter of perception than reality. As a solo player, I tend to imagine there are great epic lore reveals in raids that, once I get to see them, turn out to have been much less dramatic than I had built up in my imagination. I tend to imagine that raids were hiding the answers to all my remaining questions, but so far in my travels, they haven't.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
No, people should not be able to solo raids. Yes, everyone should be able to see the content and be rewarded with weaker items for easier content. Looking For Raid (LFR) was a pretty good idea implemented by Blizzard...
um ... *decides that my childhood farm-in-the-middle-of-nowhere stories aren't likely to go over well in this crowd*
The best endgame solo content are the ones not designed to be solo'd. The ones skilled players find a way to solo through perseverance and skill without resorting to hacks or exploits.
I recall many 4-8 hour solo attempts at certain bosses many years ago in FFXI. Those i find fun, while others may see it as a waste of time. If someone wants to spend that much time kiting a boss around while slowly killing it, more power to them. They should never be designed with soloing in mind though. Let the players figure that out.
What about the people who don't meet your definition of skilled. Why would they consider that "best"?
Using WoW as and example as the OP did. I think WoW addressed this issue by adding the Raid Finder.
You can que solo then enter an easy mode version of the raid where you can see the story line and win gear. And while you are playing with 24 other raiders you don't really need to talk to any of them.
The Raid Finder is a middle ground solution. You still have to play with other people to complete the raid but you can enter the raid by yourself and join a random group of people to complete the raid.
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com
If you are paying $10 for the game you want and I am paying $10 for the game I want, but the developers can share half the resources across both games, we each get a game with an effective budget of $15.
(my point being that just because you or I don't personally enjoy the other's playstyle, that's not automatically a good reason for us to oppose that playstyle being in our game)
No, raids should not be solo-able. It pisses me off every time i find out about a new raid boss that was solo'd by some class even 10 levels later. It simply should not be solo-able, especially since these same bosses can't be solo'd by every class. There's something obviously out of balance there.
However i do think it would be cool to have some solo content that gives you an idea of how to fight the bosses and maybe let you fight an avatar of them on your own. Similar to quest chains that lead up to events like in WOTLK where you play as Arthas fighting against Illidan. That was really damn cool. More solo content like that would be really great. 5 man instances allow players to get used to some cool boss mechanic fights together. I think it would be neat to have solo instances that give you the same kind of experience, just obviously tuned for solo play.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
Join me on Twitch Facebook Twitter