Originally posted by Maelwydd The problem with games today is players like the OP. Games are to have fun, to relax, enjoy a story, meet people and generally do things that games are for. All this 'end game' shit and the whole PvP'ers moaning about pay to win is the problem. Just play the damn game and have fun and if you can't just leave!
What you are describing is casual gaming. Not everyone is a casual gamer.
So casual gaming is for people who want to have fun, relax, and generally treat a game as a form of entertainment? To me that sounds like a person of sound mind. What are the traits that define a non-casual player?
Someone who likes to have fun in competitive situations... much like playing sports. Your way is not the only way to have fun so please forgive others for not being holier than thou.
So non-casual plyayers enjoy competing in MMO's? That's what a hardcore player is? Casuals can enjoy competition as well.
Originally posted by Maelwydd The problem with games today is players like the OP. Games are to have fun, to relax, enjoy a story, meet people and generally do things that games are for. All this 'end game' shit and the whole PvP'ers moaning about pay to win is the problem. Just play the damn game and have fun and if you can't just leave!
What you are describing is casual gaming. Not everyone is a casual gamer.
So casual gaming is for people who want to have fun, relax, and generally treat a game as a form of entertainment? To me that sounds like a person of sound mind. What are the traits that define a non-casual player?
Someone who likes to have fun in competitive situations... much like playing sports. Your way is not the only way to have fun so please forgive others for not being holier than thou.
I would say competition is a big part of MMOs and is what adds to the fun and extends the longevity of the game but it can only extend a game that is fundamentally not fun at the end so far.
If I find a mmo to be shallow, and the systems not designed well, then it is not fun and worth my time, no pvp or power gaming about it...
I like to play all aspects of a mmo, and if only 1 aspect is any good, then I am left with 1/4 or 1/3 of a game. I do not demand this out of non-mmos, but I do a mmo, as I view them as being a 'world', not a lobby matchmaker, like LoL (which I play). I expect LoL to be shallow. Before it is type, "treat a lobby mmo, like you do LoL", doesn't work, as a lobby mmo tries to be more, so it is a jumble/mess imo.
It is all about quality/depth, not price, not f2p/b2p/p2p....I will pay for the quality/depth if need be (I prefer, but that is another debate). Just because something is free doesn't make it worth playing.
Originally posted by Maelwydd The problem with games today is players like the OP. Games are to have fun, to relax, enjoy a story, meet people and generally do things that games are for. All this 'end game' shit and the whole PvP'ers moaning about pay to win is the problem. Just play the damn game and have fun and if you can't just leave!
What you are describing is casual gaming. Not everyone is a casual gamer.
So casual gaming is for people who want to have fun, relax, and generally treat a game as a form of entertainment? To me that sounds like a person of sound mind. What are the traits that define a non-casual player?
Someone who likes to have fun in competitive situations... much like playing sports. Your way is not the only way to have fun so please forgive others for not being holier than thou.
So non-casual plyayers enjoy competing in MMO's? That's what a hardcore player is? Casuals can enjoy competition as well.
And hardcore players can enjoy exploring and just simple questing at times as well. Its just about priorities. A casual gamer might prioritise learning the lore, enjoying the atmosphere, having a social experience. A hardcore player would prioritise something like earning every achievement, getting world firsts or topping a PvP or Raid league. All kinds of players will still dabble in a bit everything sometimes though.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Originally posted by Maelwydd The problem with games today is players like the OP. Games are to have fun, to relax, enjoy a story, meet people and generally do things that games are for. All this 'end game' shit and the whole PvP'ers moaning about pay to win is the problem. Just play the damn game and have fun and if you can't just leave!
What you are describing is casual gaming. Not everyone is a casual gamer.
So casual gaming is for people who want to have fun, relax, and generally treat a game as a form of entertainment? To me that sounds like a person of sound mind. What are the traits that define a non-casual player?
Someone who likes to have fun in competitive situations... much like playing sports. Your way is not the only way to have fun so please forgive others for not being holier than thou.
So non-casual plyayers enjoy competing in MMO's? That's what a hardcore player is? Casuals can enjoy competition as well.
And hardcore players can enjoy exploring and just simple questing at times as well. Its just about priorities. A casual gamer might prioritise learning the lore, enjoying the atmosphere, having a social experience. A hardcore player would prioritise something like earning every achievement, getting world firsts or topping a PvP or Raid league. All kinds of players will still dabble in a bit everything sometimes though.
In my hardcore experience I did dabble in non competitive stuff in between competitive stuff but even that stuff was to further improve my character for the main stuff or to grind funds to improve my character.
Of course these days you can bypass all of that by opening your wallet and are encouraged strongly to do so by the games.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 If you commit? Commit what exactly? It's a F2P game. If you run out of content or stop having fun, then stop playing. Not like you're shackled to the game because you spent 'x' amount of time playing it already.
Exactly so very true. Free to play so you lose zero. That is like someone offering free meal then complaining expecting something for the bad taste in your mouth. IT IS FREE suck it up and move on. If you dont pay money then dont expect the right to whine like baby.
You ever heard of time?
If you committed time to a game which turned out to be garbage then you have every right to complain. I am pretty sure it is part of the whole free speech thing and to my knowledge you dont need to spend a dime to use it.
It's not even about time. If someone gives you a free burger but it tastes like crap.. are you expected to say there's nothing wrong with it just because it was free? If it's crap, it's crap.. free or not.
I like NW btw.. so don't misinterpret that as a bash on the game. Just making a point.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by simsalabim77 If you commit? Commit what exactly? It's a F2P game. If you run out of content or stop having fun, then stop playing. Not like you're shackled to the game because you spent 'x' amount of time playing it already.
Exactly so very true. Free to play so you lose zero. That is like someone offering free meal then complaining expecting something for the bad taste in your mouth. IT IS FREE suck it up and move on. If you dont pay money then dont expect the right to whine like baby.
You ever heard of time?
If you committed time to a game which turned out to be garbage then you have every right to complain. I am pretty sure it is part of the whole free speech thing and to my knowledge you dont need to spend a dime to use it.
It's not even about time. If someone gives you a free burger but it tastes like crap.. are you expected to say there's nothing wrong with it just because it was free? If it's crap, it's crap.. free or not.
I like NW btw.. so don't misinterpret that as a bash on the game. Just making a point.
Sounds like beggars can be choosers?
They'll still eat the burger.. but it's still a crap burger.
There is a lot of free burgers out there to choose from these days though....
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
It's an MMO, there should be no such thing as an endgame. "Endgame" is a made up term for content carnivores that eat it up then cry about how there isn't enough of it. The only time in an MMO there should be an endgame is when they're shutting down the servers forever. People just don't read the texts anymore, heck in most new games you don't even have to read, just listen lol. I got booted from a group in MD because I was reading a lore object lol...no wonder people don't have fun in MMOs...MMOs never end, so why are you rushing to the "endgame"? MMOs always have been, and always will be, about the journey, not the destination. Players and Developers alike would do well to remember that.
Edit: Anyone who says this isn't a D&D game doesn't read the text or the millions of lore objects everywhere. It might not roll dice and calculate like P&P, but it is set very well in the lore of D&D. Just because you ran through the quests just killing this, killing that, doesn't mean it's not D&D. It's like playing P&P, without any narration or a DM...which would be horrible...my advice to any player playing just about any MMO is to slow it down, take your time, and enjoy the lore. Rushing gets you nowhere, but the next MMO.
It's an MMO, there should be no such thing as an endgame. "Endgame" is a made up term for content carnivores that eat it up then cry about how there isn't enough of it. The only time in an MMO there should be an endgame is when they're shutting down the servers forever. People just don't read the texts anymore, heck in most new games you don't even have to read, just listen lol. I got booted from a group in MD because I was reading a lore object lol...no wonder people don't have fun in MMOs...MMOs never end, so why are you rushing to the "endgame"? MMOs always have been, and always will be, about the journey, not the destination. Players and Developers alike would do well to remember that.
Edit: Anyone who says this isn't a D&D game doesn't read the text or the millions of lore objects everywhere. It might not roll dice and calculate like P&P, but it is set very well in the lore of D&D. Just because you ran through the quests just killing this, killing that, doesn't mean it's not D&D. It's like playing P&P, without any narration or a DM...which would be horrible...my advice to any player playing just about any MMO is to slow it down, take your time, and enjoy the lore. Rushing gets you nowhere, but the next MMO.
It's fine if you don't like "end game", but I see way too much negativity regarding it. Would you rather play an mmo that scrolled the credits and logged you out when you hit level cap? Get over yourself
It's an MMO, there should be no such thing as an endgame. "Endgame" is a made up term for content carnivores that eat it up then cry about how there isn't enough of it. The only time in an MMO there should be an endgame is when they're shutting down the servers forever. People just don't read the texts anymore, heck in most new games you don't even have to read, just listen lol. I got booted from a group in MD because I was reading a lore object lol...no wonder people don't have fun in MMOs...MMOs never end, so why are you rushing to the "endgame"? MMOs always have been, and always will be, about the journey, not the destination. Players and Developers alike would do well to remember that.
Edit: Anyone who says this isn't a D&D game doesn't read the text or the millions of lore objects everywhere. It might not roll dice and calculate like P&P, but it is set very well in the lore of D&D. Just because you ran through the quests just killing this, killing that, doesn't mean it's not D&D. It's like playing P&P, without any narration or a DM...which would be horrible...my advice to any player playing just about any MMO is to slow it down, take your time, and enjoy the lore. Rushing gets you nowhere, but the next MMO.
It's fine if you don't like "end game", but I see way too much negativity regarding it. Would you rather play an mmo that scrolled the credits and logged you out when you hit level cap? Get over yourself
The only thing Im not really liking about endgame nowadays in games is that it falls in one of three categories; Raiding, PVP, or Solo Daily Quests (which all fall into the same lines of kill 100 of these or harvest 50 of these). While I like all of those things and the idea of an "endgame" it just seems things have gotten too constricting. Now Im not that creative to offer ideas on that and how to change it those are just my feelings on the situation.
As to the mentioned stigma about endgame, for me alot of it revolved around gearscores in WoW and how endgame just became another item consumption at an even more frantic pace.
Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO
I got the feeling if I commit I'll end up stuck at endgame with nothing to do due to lack of content. On top the way it's headed with big raids and 5v5 I'll be depending on a community, which will limit me when and how much I can enjoy it.
It's been proven in the past that themepark designed MMORPG's without big revenue cannot maintain a steady content and endgame features.
ThemeParks cannot maintain a steady content, period. WoW is the only one that has, it is simply a flawed model for a sustained MMO and that is why virtually every MMO, again except WoW, have seen declining subs unless they give the game away and go F2P.
I hope you don't consider EQ or EQ 2 themeparks. because wow and blizz could learn a thing or 2 about steady content from SOE. oh and wow sucks.
A lot of People really need to change the way they see mmo gaming in order to have a better gaming experience.
Play the game for the journey. If by the time you reach the so called endgame you like what they offer at level cap then decide if you want to stick to the game at level cap for a long time. Dont just go playing every single mmo with the long term endgame pro raiding mentality from level 1.
Im currently playing Neverwinter and figuring out how long I'll be around. It seems the end-game is where spending money becomes more of an issue. So for me I will probably level to cap with my cleric and maybe another character or two and then consider I finished the game and move on. In these type of games I find the leveling is the game and the end game really is the "end of the game" for me. Just doing the same dungeons doesnt interest me at endgame. The Foundry does hold out hope, although people are saying a maxed character who does Foundry quests has a hard time, not sure about any of that yet but will see soon I guess.
Originally posted by SoulStain I hate end-game in mmos..the raids and pvp that is expected to keep us entertained forever. An mmo's endgame for me is usually going to play different mmo.
It's funny, because I hate leveling in an MMO. To me that would be time better spent on a single player game with a significantly better storyline and gameplay. I can't even fathom why anyone would play an MMO if not for endgame, and especially purely to level. To each their own I guess.
Originally posted by Yamota You ever heard of time?If you committed time to a game which turned out to be garbage then you have every right to complain.
If you enjoyed it for a while and then it "turned out" to be garbage, and you stopped playing, what have you lost? You enjoyed it while you were spending that time playing it!
If you never enjoyed it but played anyway, well, then I guess you can complain. But I doubt you'll get much sympathy, given that you freely chose to waste your time doing something you weren't enjoying.
Originally posted by SoulStain I hate end-game in mmos..the raids and pvp that is expected to keep us entertained forever. An mmo's endgame for me is usually going to play different mmo.
It's funny, because I hate leveling in an MMO. To me that would be time better spent on a single player game with a significantly better storyline and gameplay. I can't even fathom why anyone would play an MMO if not for endgame, and especially purely to level. To each their own I guess.
Im the type that is always rolling their eyes when I hear people talking excitedly about "almost reaching cap" and figuring out the fastest way to max a character. I consider the journey the best part of the game. I know in LOTRO many players were complaining about how fast you gtained xp and wanted a way to turn it off. A friend told me they added in the ability to turn off xp gain or maybe it is slow it down actually. Of course, this is being sold in the store, lol. Anyway, it goes to show all types of people play MMOs and for different reasons. It is all good.
Originally posted by SoulStain I hate end-game in mmos..the raids and pvp that is expected to keep us entertained forever. An mmo's endgame for me is usually going to play different mmo.
It's funny, because I hate leveling in an MMO. To me that would be time better spent on a single player game with a significantly better storyline and gameplay. I can't even fathom why anyone would play an MMO if not for endgame, and especially purely to level. To each their own I guess.
Im the type that is always rolling their eyes when I hear people talking excitedly about "almost reaching cap" and figuring out the fastest way to max a character. I consider the journey the best part of the game. I know in LOTRO many players were complaining about how fast you gtained xp and wanted a way to turn it off. A friend told me they added in the ability to turn off xp gain or maybe it is slow it down actually. Of course, this is being sold in the store, lol. Anyway, it goes to show all types of people play MMOs and for different reasons. It is all good.
I believe that it is game specific. Although Age of Conan has an enjoyable leveling experience, the lasting content with a good difficulty challenge is found at level cap. With alternate advancement starting at level cap and a great deal of gear progression, there is plenty of room or further character progression. AoC is definitely an example of great end game, even if you are a solo-centric player
Hoping Modules will bring about a continuous storyline along with new classes.
Back in FFXIV 1.0 (when they switched teams and fixed most issues) they added entire storylines that actually continued game play and lore as opposed to just putting in a new raid every six months, with bosses that back lore that relates to the expansion.
That's what I call a never ending MMO, the fact you had to work at it and team up with people to get it done was a bonus. Thankfully they intend to release new classes and add to the the storylines they create (or create new ones) that last until the next expansion, when new lands and new storylines will start anew. It's especially neat that there were so many well made cutscenes to go along with the storyline.
If Neverwinter can pull something like this off, I'd be really impressed.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
This is another reason I am having a hard time considering Neverwinter is a game I want spend anytime in. (I personally have a hard time with the F2P cash shop setup) I use the be a raider, I have raided once in SWTOR and that is the last time I have raided in any game in over a year. For years I been a progressive raider who always got back on the gear treadmill. However not this time. Why you may ask would someone who has been raiding for years since 2005 would you stop and be against it in a New MMO. I would say that I no longer find it fun an enjoyable because of the time and effort that is required to raid. Since WOTLK Every game has trying to copy WoW's gear grinding raiding formula and I played multiple games other than WoW as well as raided in them games.
Truthfully raiding can be fun when it does not become about gear scores, needing to do X amount of instances a week to cap your badges out so you can gear faster, now run LFR as much as you can too. Raiding use to be about effort however in Vanilla and BC you could cobble together a set of gear and raid. So what if in Kara you were on the first 4 bosses for 3 or 4 weeks no problem people needed that gear no need to run 5 or 10, or 20 instances a week to gear up as fast as you can. The encounters during Vanilla and BC were not mechanic until or unless you got to Naxx or Sunwell. People who wanted to raid 2 or 3 days a week with friends could do it in these days and they would down bosses if worked on hard enough.
But accessibility changed all that. Blizzard wanted to get everyone into end game content so thats why that make it easier in WOTLK had 10 man and 25 mans drop different loot. So what did people do raid the same instances 4 times or more a week. Just to keep up. You can say well you didnt have to do it. Well Your right its freedom of choice, however if you want to keep cramming expansions down peoples throats every 2 years and what to change the raid formula to what WoW did you will have high burn out.
Needless to say I am burnt out on raiding. My friends that I have played with for 5 or more years are all burnt out and only but a handful play any sort of MMO now a days. And even of that group no more than 3 or 4 hours a week because well every MMO is just like WoW, they try to copy that formula. Well guess what people are tired of it, and honestly Neverwinter could be different if it just sticks to 5 man content. Yes instances, let players create the content and yes the devs should do. Go a head and create a carrot. However keep the content on the lite side, yes EASY. Why? Because if one cannot understand that the MMO market is moving away from old large raid content (Which wildstar seems to think the market is not because they are wearing their pink tinted glasses.) they are foolish and should just shut down.
It should be very obvious that times are changing its time to go into a different direction. That does not mean that Raiding should be completely left behind. Raiding and End Game formula should be innovated to include other forms of end game material that will allow players that dont want to raid to still get the same end game gear. That does not mean remove the challenge. One can take a Sandbox Element like Treasure Hunting from UO change it to fit a new MMO and drop Epic gear out of a map. It should still require multiple players to do this because MMOs are a Multiplayer game, so maybe 3 or 4 friends could do a high level treasure map because the mobs that spawn will kill 1 or 2 people. Go ahead and create scalable raids so if Harcore Guild B wants to do it with 20 people they can, that raid should be also scaled to a 5 man party level. All Player created content and Dev created content can be set to a Tier level of gear, scale in toughness and drop gear.
Its time to move away from the same formula for end game that is fading no matter what a few people say. The truth is, it is fading however it does not have to be totally gone. Innovate so people have a choice how they want to spend their end game. I can also tell you that in SWTOR there have been more people that has tried raiding in 8 man content vs other MMOs because the tighter nit groups. So work on that, the few people that want their large raids can have them however if they want them real tough let them develop a tough large raid for the foundry. Why force developers to do it?
I got the feeling if I commit I'll end up stuck at endgame with nothing to do due to lack of content. On top the way it's headed with big raids and 5v5 I'll be depending on a community, which will limit me when and how much I can enjoy it.
It's been proven in the past that themepark designed MMORPG's without big revenue cannot maintain a steady content and endgame features.
...in an MMORPG based on a game where playing alone was deemed taboo because you'd look schizophrenic by being the Dungeon Master and the Character at the same time? Yeah I'd say depending on the community is pretty normal.
Neverwinter is a great little game, its fun to play and has its charm. But it has some fundamental problems when it comes to long term commitment; it is just too shallow. DnD just aren't meant to be used as a mmorpg where you build characters for years, and since they are so relatively close to DnD rules, I can't see how that would change.
Eq survived on "neverending" xp (aa levels), raids, variety and complex combat mechanics + a stream of expansions.
WoW survived on everchanging mechanics, raids for everyone, and not too bad pvp, variety in builds and pure slickness + a stream of expansions.
Neverwinter has pretty simple combat mechanics, simple builds that are limited by DnD rules, lacking real roles. It has Foundry and ease of introducing adventures easily, but as I see it, DnD just doesn't allow enough room to change the character building part to allow long term commitment. DnD is simply stuck in the PnP mindset, which it is great for, but as a mmorpg, not so much in my opinion.
I could see Neverwinter benefit greatly from a live Game Master mode, where people could group up and run Foundry missions with a live GM with various controls. Get your friends on and have them roll characters and have fun roleplaying for awhile and then discard the characters again, just like PnP... and with the freedom of traditional PnP with a GM. Well shrug I don't know, but I just don't see Neverwinter making it as a mmorpg, so it should take advantage of what it can be.
The problem with endgame is this idea that the game doesn't really start until you're max lvl. Can you imagine if any other game was like that? Oh skyrim was fun but the end game doesn't start until you Max every skill and cap the lvls.
The whole game should be part of the experience and the journey not just what happens at max lvl.
That they weren't designed as MMOs and just had half assed multiplayed tacked on last minute to charge more?
And to think, some people try to argue otherwise when this quote exists...
"Cryptic Studios chief operating officer Jack Emmert explained, "It's not an MMO in the sense that there aren't zones with hundreds-and-hundreds of people. You are not fighting for spawns. There's a very strong storyline throughout the game. So it's more of a story-based game closer to things like Dragon Age or Oblivion,"
Just like the people that try to say GW1 is an MMO when even the devs say it isn't.
The problem with MMOs like Neverwinter is that Neverwinter wasn't an MMO until Perfect World took over. Cryptic did not design or advertise the game as an MMO.
You are half right. Neverwinter wasn't originally an MMORPG, but an MMODC(Massively Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawler), similar to Phantasy Star Online 2, Vindictus (I think), and Rusty Hearts . It was still an MMO, but one without a "persitant world".
Even though this would have been closer to how D&D normally is, I cant help but wonder if it would have been better or worse than the curren iteration.
The problem with MMOs like Neverwinter is that Neverwinter wasn't an MMO until Perfect World took over. Cryptic did not design or advertise the game as an MMO.
You are half right. Neverwinter wasn't originally an MMORPG, but an MMODC(Massively Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawler), similar to Phantasy Star Online 2, Vindictus (I think), and Rusty Hearts . It was still an MMO, but one without a "persitant world".
Even though this would have been closer to how D&D normally is, I cant help but wonder if it would have been better or worse than the curren iteration.
There is no such thing as a MMODC. There's nothing massively multiplayer about going into dungeons with 4 people.
That genre exists. It's the same genre Diablo is in. The original Neverwinter games were this way.
And the persistant world is one of the things that MAKES an MMO.
Comments
So non-casual plyayers enjoy competing in MMO's? That's what a hardcore player is? Casuals can enjoy competition as well.
I would say competition is a big part of MMOs and is what adds to the fun and extends the longevity of the game but it can only extend a game that is fundamentally not fun at the end so far.
If I find a mmo to be shallow, and the systems not designed well, then it is not fun and worth my time, no pvp or power gaming about it...
I like to play all aspects of a mmo, and if only 1 aspect is any good, then I am left with 1/4 or 1/3 of a game. I do not demand this out of non-mmos, but I do a mmo, as I view them as being a 'world', not a lobby matchmaker, like LoL (which I play). I expect LoL to be shallow. Before it is type, "treat a lobby mmo, like you do LoL", doesn't work, as a lobby mmo tries to be more, so it is a jumble/mess imo.
It is all about quality/depth, not price, not f2p/b2p/p2p....I will pay for the quality/depth if need be (I prefer, but that is another debate). Just because something is free doesn't make it worth playing.
And hardcore players can enjoy exploring and just simple questing at times as well. Its just about priorities. A casual gamer might prioritise learning the lore, enjoying the atmosphere, having a social experience. A hardcore player would prioritise something like earning every achievement, getting world firsts or topping a PvP or Raid league. All kinds of players will still dabble in a bit everything sometimes though.
In my hardcore experience I did dabble in non competitive stuff in between competitive stuff but even that stuff was to further improve my character for the main stuff or to grind funds to improve my character.
Of course these days you can bypass all of that by opening your wallet and are encouraged strongly to do so by the games.
Sounds like beggars can be choosers?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
They'll still eat the burger.. but it's still a crap burger.
There is a lot of free burgers out there to choose from these days though....
It's an MMO, there should be no such thing as an endgame. "Endgame" is a made up term for content carnivores that eat it up then cry about how there isn't enough of it. The only time in an MMO there should be an endgame is when they're shutting down the servers forever. People just don't read the texts anymore, heck in most new games you don't even have to read, just listen lol. I got booted from a group in MD because I was reading a lore object lol...no wonder people don't have fun in MMOs...MMOs never end, so why are you rushing to the "endgame"? MMOs always have been, and always will be, about the journey, not the destination. Players and Developers alike would do well to remember that.
Edit: Anyone who says this isn't a D&D game doesn't read the text or the millions of lore objects everywhere. It might not roll dice and calculate like P&P, but it is set very well in the lore of D&D. Just because you ran through the quests just killing this, killing that, doesn't mean it's not D&D. It's like playing P&P, without any narration or a DM...which would be horrible...my advice to any player playing just about any MMO is to slow it down, take your time, and enjoy the lore. Rushing gets you nowhere, but the next MMO.
It's fine if you don't like "end game", but I see way too much negativity regarding it. Would you rather play an mmo that scrolled the credits and logged you out when you hit level cap? Get over yourself
The only thing Im not really liking about endgame nowadays in games is that it falls in one of three categories; Raiding, PVP, or Solo Daily Quests (which all fall into the same lines of kill 100 of these or harvest 50 of these). While I like all of those things and the idea of an "endgame" it just seems things have gotten too constricting. Now Im not that creative to offer ideas on that and how to change it those are just my feelings on the situation.
As to the mentioned stigma about endgame, for me alot of it revolved around gearscores in WoW and how endgame just became another item consumption at an even more frantic pace.
Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO
I hope you don't consider EQ or EQ 2 themeparks. because wow and blizz could learn a thing or 2 about steady content from SOE. oh and wow sucks.
A lot of People really need to change the way they see mmo gaming in order to have a better gaming experience.
Play the game for the journey. If by the time you reach the so called endgame you like what they offer at level cap then decide if you want to stick to the game at level cap for a long time. Dont just go playing every single mmo with the long term endgame pro raiding mentality from level 1.
Im currently playing Neverwinter and figuring out how long I'll be around. It seems the end-game is where spending money becomes more of an issue. So for me I will probably level to cap with my cleric and maybe another character or two and then consider I finished the game and move on. In these type of games I find the leveling is the game and the end game really is the "end of the game" for me. Just doing the same dungeons doesnt interest me at endgame. The Foundry does hold out hope, although people are saying a maxed character who does Foundry quests has a hard time, not sure about any of that yet but will see soon I guess.
It's funny, because I hate leveling in an MMO. To me that would be time better spent on a single player game with a significantly better storyline and gameplay. I can't even fathom why anyone would play an MMO if not for endgame, and especially purely to level. To each their own I guess.
If you enjoyed it for a while and then it "turned out" to be garbage, and you stopped playing, what have you lost? You enjoyed it while you were spending that time playing it!
If you never enjoyed it but played anyway, well, then I guess you can complain. But I doubt you'll get much sympathy, given that you freely chose to waste your time doing something you weren't enjoying.
Im the type that is always rolling their eyes when I hear people talking excitedly about "almost reaching cap" and figuring out the fastest way to max a character. I consider the journey the best part of the game. I know in LOTRO many players were complaining about how fast you gtained xp and wanted a way to turn it off. A friend told me they added in the ability to turn off xp gain or maybe it is slow it down actually. Of course, this is being sold in the store, lol. Anyway, it goes to show all types of people play MMOs and for different reasons. It is all good.
I believe that it is game specific. Although Age of Conan has an enjoyable leveling experience, the lasting content with a good difficulty challenge is found at level cap. With alternate advancement starting at level cap and a great deal of gear progression, there is plenty of room or further character progression. AoC is definitely an example of great end game, even if you are a solo-centric player
Hoping Modules will bring about a continuous storyline along with new classes.
Back in FFXIV 1.0 (when they switched teams and fixed most issues) they added entire storylines that actually continued game play and lore as opposed to just putting in a new raid every six months, with bosses that back lore that relates to the expansion.
That's what I call a never ending MMO, the fact you had to work at it and team up with people to get it done was a bonus. Thankfully they intend to release new classes and add to the the storylines they create (or create new ones) that last until the next expansion, when new lands and new storylines will start anew. It's especially neat that there were so many well made cutscenes to go along with the storyline.
If Neverwinter can pull something like this off, I'd be really impressed.
This is another reason I am having a hard time considering Neverwinter is a game I want spend anytime in. (I personally have a hard time with the F2P cash shop setup) I use the be a raider, I have raided once in SWTOR and that is the last time I have raided in any game in over a year. For years I been a progressive raider who always got back on the gear treadmill. However not this time. Why you may ask would someone who has been raiding for years since 2005 would you stop and be against it in a New MMO. I would say that I no longer find it fun an enjoyable because of the time and effort that is required to raid. Since WOTLK Every game has trying to copy WoW's gear grinding raiding formula and I played multiple games other than WoW as well as raided in them games.
Truthfully raiding can be fun when it does not become about gear scores, needing to do X amount of instances a week to cap your badges out so you can gear faster, now run LFR as much as you can too. Raiding use to be about effort however in Vanilla and BC you could cobble together a set of gear and raid. So what if in Kara you were on the first 4 bosses for 3 or 4 weeks no problem people needed that gear no need to run 5 or 10, or 20 instances a week to gear up as fast as you can. The encounters during Vanilla and BC were not mechanic until or unless you got to Naxx or Sunwell. People who wanted to raid 2 or 3 days a week with friends could do it in these days and they would down bosses if worked on hard enough.
But accessibility changed all that. Blizzard wanted to get everyone into end game content so thats why that make it easier in WOTLK had 10 man and 25 mans drop different loot. So what did people do raid the same instances 4 times or more a week. Just to keep up. You can say well you didnt have to do it. Well Your right its freedom of choice, however if you want to keep cramming expansions down peoples throats every 2 years and what to change the raid formula to what WoW did you will have high burn out.
Needless to say I am burnt out on raiding. My friends that I have played with for 5 or more years are all burnt out and only but a handful play any sort of MMO now a days. And even of that group no more than 3 or 4 hours a week because well every MMO is just like WoW, they try to copy that formula. Well guess what people are tired of it, and honestly Neverwinter could be different if it just sticks to 5 man content. Yes instances, let players create the content and yes the devs should do. Go a head and create a carrot. However keep the content on the lite side, yes EASY. Why? Because if one cannot understand that the MMO market is moving away from old large raid content (Which wildstar seems to think the market is not because they are wearing their pink tinted glasses.) they are foolish and should just shut down.
It should be very obvious that times are changing its time to go into a different direction. That does not mean that Raiding should be completely left behind. Raiding and End Game formula should be innovated to include other forms of end game material that will allow players that dont want to raid to still get the same end game gear. That does not mean remove the challenge. One can take a Sandbox Element like Treasure Hunting from UO change it to fit a new MMO and drop Epic gear out of a map. It should still require multiple players to do this because MMOs are a Multiplayer game, so maybe 3 or 4 friends could do a high level treasure map because the mobs that spawn will kill 1 or 2 people. Go ahead and create scalable raids so if Harcore Guild B wants to do it with 20 people they can, that raid should be also scaled to a 5 man party level. All Player created content and Dev created content can be set to a Tier level of gear, scale in toughness and drop gear.
Its time to move away from the same formula for end game that is fading no matter what a few people say. The truth is, it is fading however it does not have to be totally gone. Innovate so people have a choice how they want to spend their end game. I can also tell you that in SWTOR there have been more people that has tried raiding in 8 man content vs other MMOs because the tighter nit groups. So work on that, the few people that want their large raids can have them however if they want them real tough let them develop a tough large raid for the foundry. Why force developers to do it?
...in an MMORPG based on a game where playing alone was deemed taboo because you'd look schizophrenic by being the Dungeon Master and the Character at the same time? Yeah I'd say depending on the community is pretty normal.
Neverwinter is a great little game, its fun to play and has its charm. But it has some fundamental problems when it comes to long term commitment; it is just too shallow. DnD just aren't meant to be used as a mmorpg where you build characters for years, and since they are so relatively close to DnD rules, I can't see how that would change.
Eq survived on "neverending" xp (aa levels), raids, variety and complex combat mechanics + a stream of expansions.
WoW survived on everchanging mechanics, raids for everyone, and not too bad pvp, variety in builds and pure slickness + a stream of expansions.
Neverwinter has pretty simple combat mechanics, simple builds that are limited by DnD rules, lacking real roles. It has Foundry and ease of introducing adventures easily, but as I see it, DnD just doesn't allow enough room to change the character building part to allow long term commitment. DnD is simply stuck in the PnP mindset, which it is great for, but as a mmorpg, not so much in my opinion.
I could see Neverwinter benefit greatly from a live Game Master mode, where people could group up and run Foundry missions with a live GM with various controls. Get your friends on and have them roll characters and have fun roleplaying for awhile and then discard the characters again, just like PnP... and with the freedom of traditional PnP with a GM. Well shrug I don't know, but I just don't see Neverwinter making it as a mmorpg, so it should take advantage of what it can be.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The whole game should be part of the experience and the journey not just what happens at max lvl.
That they weren't designed as MMOs and just had half assed multiplayed tacked on last minute to charge more?
And to think, some people try to argue otherwise when this quote exists...
"Cryptic Studios chief operating officer Jack Emmert explained, "It's not an MMO in the sense that there aren't zones with hundreds-and-hundreds of people. You are not fighting for spawns. There's a very strong storyline throughout the game. So it's more of a story-based game closer to things like Dragon Age or Oblivion,"
Just like the people that try to say GW1 is an MMO when even the devs say it isn't.
You are half right. Neverwinter wasn't originally an MMORPG, but an MMODC(Massively Multiplayer Online Dungeon Crawler), similar to Phantasy Star Online 2, Vindictus (I think), and Rusty Hearts . It was still an MMO, but one without a "persitant world".
Even though this would have been closer to how D&D normally is, I cant help but wonder if it would have been better or worse than the curren iteration.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
There is no such thing as a MMODC. There's nothing massively multiplayer about going into dungeons with 4 people.
That genre exists. It's the same genre Diablo is in. The original Neverwinter games were this way.
And the persistant world is one of the things that MAKES an MMO.